itschris

I did a search on Serotta but didn't find much. I'm looking ahead to my next bike at which point I will willing to spend $2,500 to $3,500. My LBS is a Serotta dealer and the whole "build to suit" concept makes a lot of sense to me. I've research Serotta pretty heavily and they seem to offer outstanding product and service, not to mention some of the hottest bikes I've seen. My question is, why would I spend 3K on an off the shelf bike like a higher end Trek, Lightspeed, etc, when I have the option of having a bike of comparable, even superior craftsmanship and fit, that's built just for me. What am I missing?

Xavier

You are not missing anything. This is the United States and well, that God to this date we have choices and the freedom to choose.

Same reason you could buy a normal carbon frame for about $1000 or buy a Colnago special Edition for $1000s more.

Mainly it is a status issue on bikes, much like cars. All bikes do the same purpose so why would people buy more pricier brands? Status. A guy with a new C40 with Record 10s and carbon wheels is looked at higher than the guy with say the Interloc with Veloce. Truth is they serve the same function and it is the rider that makes them go forward.

I always tell my customers when choosing between brands to try to look over the hype and go with what fits and they really like.

itschris

Thanks for getting back so quick. That only partly answers my question, unfortunately. I do totally agree with your assesment of status and hype. I guess what I'm really asking though, and I probably just didn't make it clear, is given the same price, why I would I not buy a custom cycle of the same or superior quality, fit, and performance? As it stands today, from everything I can tell, I almost cannot even think of a reason not to go with a Serotta over just about any bike in the price range and I'm wondering if there is an issue that I might not be thinking of that weighs in the favor of an "off the rack" higher end bike.

lotek 

Ok, I'm biased here as I ride a Serotta (abeit an older one).
The reason you buy a Serotta, other than the status
(and yes that is part of it for some), is the Fit.
For your hard earned dollars you get a custom fitted Frame
that is hand built to your and Serotta's specs.
Kelly (the main builder, and contact) will go over all specs
with your LBS (who relay info to him), make recommendations
and settle on a geometry that works for you.
You are also investing in the innovation, Serotta invented
the S-bend chain stay, Colorado tubing (swagged, butted
and taper tubesets), DKS suspension among other things.
Yes there are other builders who can get you custom
sized frames (Spectrum, Sachs - 1 year wait, Moon, Baylis
goodrich and Vanilla to name a few) but few of them market
the way that Serotta does.
By the way, if your measurements warrent it, Serotta will
recommend an off the shelf standard geo frame, it saves some
bucks.
Have you gone to Serotta web site? The forum there is
pretty good, but again is pretty biased (hey its a Serotta
owners forum).
Serotta web site
Serotta Owners forum
I bet SteveE shows up on this thread!

Marty

Davet

I've had three Serottas and agree with you completely. The fit is the single most important quality in whatever bike you choose. So choose your dealer carefully. Interview the fitter to see if he/she understands what you want in a bike, what your perceived needs are, what your likes and dislikes are. A Serotta fitting, from a highly qualified fitter, will take the large part of several hours. Be open and honest when you talk to them about you and your new bike. What you tell them will influence what they will perceive as your needs when they are determining what your new Serotta is going to be like.

Another good source of information can be found on the Serotta Owners Forum: https://www.hydromedia.com/serotta/list.php?f=1

TandemGeek

- Instant gratification,
- Brand-name recognition,
- Potential economies of scale on overall cost,
- Less up-front effort (research, requirements, sizing),
- Fewer decisions (sizing choices, geometry, color, options),
- A bike that's easier to part with when the next hot model comes out.

By the way, these are all good reasons to buy stock bikes if they fit and perform to your liking. Then again, if you need a custom sized bike (only a small percentage of cyclists do) or just want a custom bike for any one of many reasons -- to include enjoying the process of spec'ing one or having a bike that's unique from all others -- there's nothing wrong with that. Also, custom does not always mean more expensive and that's where the up front effort comes in.

Point of Reference: I have several custom bikes -- 3 tandems and a road bike -- and I also have a few bikes that were built using stock frames. They all fit well and ride quite nicely but it's doubful that I'll ever sell the custom bikes. I sold two older Raleigh custom racing bikes in the 90's and have regretted it ever since.

Last item: Serotta.... good choice. Nice bikes, nice guy (Ben) and a lot of new stuff going on. One of our riding companions is a good, long-time friend of Ben's and we're lobbying for the re-start of their custom tandem frames. They moved into a new facility that finally has enough room for a tandem-sized frame table so they're coming, but we don't know when

lotek 

Livngood,
you mean like this one?
(original on Serotta forum, used without permission!).
Marty

MichaelW

I would agree that a stock geometry bike from a large manufacturer seems poor value compared to a custom built one.
Trek charge a lot for a piece of moulded plastic, OK it is light and rides well, but mostly you are paying for marketing and the Lance-a-like image.
For many riders , stock geometries fit perfectly OK, but if I was tall, short or female, I would go straight to a custom builder.
There are custom builders working in finely lugged steel, Ti, Al and even carbon. Some of them do more craftsmanship than bleeding edge engineering design, but you can find whatever you want with buying from a NYSE-listed company.

There is a good list of US steel builders at henryjames.com.

SteveE

Hey Marty! I saw "Serotta" as a thread and couldn't stay away.

Everything that Marty and Davet mentioned is true. One thing that they didn't mention is that, in addition to sizing, Serotta will match the tubeset to your weight and riding style. So, if you're a big guy, Serotta will build the frame with heavier tubing to keep the frame from getting too noodly. You want a touring geometry? Climb lots of hills? Ride in crits and need a higher bottom bracket height? Serotta, and other custom builders, will do this stuff for you.

You get a lot of options with Serotta: tons of paint designs, decals (color, placement, number), metal headbadge vs. decal, headtube extension, carbon fork or steel, pump peg, etc. As an example, because I have a long femur, Serotta changed the seat tube angle to 72.5 so I could maintain the KOPS (knee over pedal spindle) position (just as a starting point, mind you).

The status thing is cool, if you can afford it. It's nice to have a bike that built just for you. Not just the comfort and performance aspect but, with all the options, you probably won't meet another Serotta owner that has a bike exactly like yours.

Steve "Another Satisfied Serotta Owner" E

lotek 

Big Boy Blue?

yeah, you know there was no way I was gonna
pass this one up.

Marty

TandemGeek

Sort of, but not exactly. As nice as it looks, Serotta will be the first to admit they don't know a whole lot about tandem design and construction. So, while they can be coaxed into making one it's not exactly the equivalent of their single bikes in terms of its performance and handling.

David & I want Ben to pursue the development of a design and tubeset for a performance tandem that will appeal to the same buyer's niche as the tandems made by Erickson, Calfee, Griffen, Seven and Co-Motion's new high-end go-fast two-fers for the folks who are Serotta enthusiasts.

Setting all of that aside, the '02 bike pictured in the gallery is quite appealing to the eye. But, I'm just not sure I'd give up the geometry on our Erickson's....

lotek 

One of the nicest looking tandems I have ever seen
was a colnago, same era as the Super. I've heard
it rode like a dog tho (but thats hearsay so take it
with a grain of salt).
I believe that single manufactures just don't get it
when it comes to geometry etc. of a tandem,
thus the popularity of a brand like say
Santana (did you know they did a single?).
Ericson looks really nice.

Now if I could only convince the wife that a tandem
is a good thing.

Marty

diamondback

Memories....

itschris

Thanks everyone for the opinions and advice. I was considering a number of higher end bikes from makers like Kestrel, Trek, LeMond, and Lightspeed, but so far I can't see any reason whatsoever not to spend that same amount of money on a bike that's designed just for me, that has outstanding quality and technology, and looks that damn good. I think by this time next year I should be riding a Concours CS or maybe even a Legend TI. I'm sure I'll continue to learn and grow as a rider and maybe that'll change, but as of right now, my heart is set. I absolutely love my new Specialized Allez Elite, and maybe I won't outgrow it as fast as I think I can.

Davet

More memories.......for me

TandemGeek

Tandems are indeed strange animals and even within the tandem market strong philosophies drive widely different approaches to geometry.

Santana's Bill McCready is an icon in the bike industry with respect to tandems and his Santana branded tandems clearly redefined the benchmark for many things that are now standard on tandems. Thankfully, Santana's success in bringing tandems to market that are as reliable and of a quality that is equal to or better than most major brand-name bicycles has caused a healthy expansion of the consumer base for tandems and along with it have come new players (e.g., Co-Motion, Meridian, Burley), custom builders like Bushnell, Calfee, Erickson, Seven & Litespeed as well as the bigs at Cannondale and Trek who have really done an exceptional job of maturing their tandems. Of course, the upshot of this becomes the search for the RIGHT tandem for a given team.

Santana tandems are great handling bikes if you like laid back geometry (1.8" of trail) and certain other features that are common on Santana's tandems. However, if you like a more "sporty" feel and/or are looking for the quinnestial tandem that "handles like my single bike" then you work your way up the food chain:

Meridian/Trek = 1.9" of steering trail
Cannondale = 2.0" of steering trail
Co-Motion = 2.25" of steering trail
Calfee...?? I think they use about 2.25"
Erickson = 2.36" - 2.5" of steering trail

What is the sweet spot for single racing bikes? 2.36" (6cm)

However, there's a lot more to designing 6' long bike frames than just setting steering geometry and that's where all the trade-offs start to come in. Suffices to say, like road bikes, you need to test ride a variety of different tandem brands before you can form an opinion about what works well for you and want doesn't. I think a lot of folks give up on tandems because they either didn't get any instruction on "how to ride a tandem" (it's not as intuitive as you might think) or got the wrong tandem and were disappointed by how it handled -- too squirelly or too lame.

Trivia Time: Actually, they've done a couple over the past 25 years. Most of them were made as development projects for materials or designs that were being considered for use on their tandems. They've built a couple of one-off bikes for customers who just wanted to have a single Santana to compliment their Santana tandem. And then they played at introducing a production single bike model somewhere along the line as well. I think the most recent experiment involved a short run of Scandium framed bikes that were being used to evaluate the potential use of Scandium aluminum for a high-end racing tandem model (Note: Dennis Bushnell and Glenn Erickson have been making Scandium aluminum tandems for several years, Griffen uses a boron matrix tube and Bilenky makes tandems using Aeromet in the event that you're looking for high-tech materials)

Thanks. It actually handles even better than it looks.

You could always send for Santana's excellent "Tandems & Tandeming" magazine and leave it laying around the house to stir up interest. While the content in incredibly biased and in some cases technically inaccurate (that's a polite way to describe it), it does do a great job of painting a nice image of what tandem cycling has to offer. Actually, not what I think about it, you might want to send off for one of Co-Motion's brochures as well. Perhaps she'll be inspired to suggest you take her for a test ride.

To get Santana's catalog visit this link:
https://www.santanainc.com/catalog.html

To get Co-Motions, visit this link:
https://www.co-motion.com/brochure.html

To learn more about tandems in general, visit our non-commercial, enthusiast's Web site (i.e., I don't make any money or get commissions so no strings attached)....
https://www.TheTandemLink.com