But what's impressive about it is that with their testing, they found that you can go 28 mph in this vehicle with just 100 watts! WOW.
(And just to give a comparison. Using http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm to guage watts required to go a certain speed, if you had 0 mph wind, 0% gradiant, were 0 ft above sea level, weighed 160 lbs, had a 19 lb bike and rode at 100 watts, you'd go about 14 mph)
It uses clip pedals and a regular bike gear system.
Been there, posted that. ;)
Google Varna Diablo (80mph+ top speed on ~flat ground), WAW velomobile, or just velomobile. Going out on a limb, I'm guessing that a significant portion of this sub forum don't really care about the environment, efficiency, or HPVs in any significant way. Significant enough to do anything anyhoo... They just want to ride a bike and blabber on about how they're saving the world. :rolleyes:
The advantage of bikes like the WAW and Co. is they minimize fluid friction, allowing for higher speeds at some energy level, say ~45kph@200W for the WAW. Now, if built for modularity, with the ability to be combined into a larger vehicle with the same drag, just proportionally more rolling friction because of the increase in weight, these may allow two to four cyclists to hit speeds in excess of 60-100kmh using ~200W from each. Kinda like drafting except much more effective.
I just got out of a cage a couple years ago I rather live close to everything instead.
xyz
03-10-07, 05:24 PM
Bet it costs as much as a car.
Alekhine
03-10-07, 06:01 PM
It looks about as comfortable as Alexander DeLarge's theater chair. :p
LandLuger
03-10-07, 06:55 PM
My crude ebike conversion on my old Trek is good for 30 MPH on the flats without any rider input. If I were to install the same motor (clyte 406) on my Baron lowracer I would expect to hit 40+ MPH. Man, I would need a monster chainring for such a setup.
Golf XRay Tango
03-10-07, 08:39 PM
Velomobiles look like a really good way for more people to make the jump to human powered personal transportation. I'd love to have one, but I'm currently choking on the $10,000 price tag to get one into Canada.
It would be great to be able to commute at an average of 30km/h even in a strong headwind. Right now I average that on no-wind days.
xyz
03-10-07, 09:00 PM
My cousin bought one, I don't think he rides it much anymore.
I agree the pricetag is ridiculous but hopefully they can find a way to lower the cost. If they could build these things and sell them for $3-4K (and make them REALLY safe), I think you'd start to see some people buy them. The keys are making it cheaper and making it safe enough to be hit by a car.
ken cummings
03-10-07, 10:07 PM
I had a fully faired trike 20 + years ago. Inherently more stable then the two wheeler. Even with two of the NACA low-drag air vents I got dangrously over heated and dehydrated in the spring going from Las Vegas to LA, and again from LA to Northern California. Last generation, true but it ran 68 pounds trike and shell combined. Add in 30 lb of stuff (it was a tour) and it was a drag up hills. Trying to commute with it in Colorado the clear bubble dome would frost over in seconds in mid winter. Now I use a touring bike for commuting. In 1983 dollars it cost $2,300.
LandLuger
03-11-07, 10:54 AM
I agree the pricetag is ridiculous but hopefully they can find a way to lower the cost. If they could build these things and sell them for $3-4K (and make them REALLY safe), I think you'd start to see some people buy them. The keys are making it cheaper and making it safe enough to be hit by a car.
Last year when the the first WAW velos were being brought into the states, my understanding was that one could be had in kit form for about that price. As far as safety, there is a growing body of evidence in Europe--where these HPVs are vastly more prevalent--that survivability is greatly improved vs. a traditional bicycle. One story that was related to me was of a velomobilist who was broadsided at an intersection in the bicycle laneby a motorist running the red light at full speed. The pics were of the carnage to the velo were horrible, but the cyclist escaped with only a few scratches and a mild knock to the head--and I don't remember him saying he was wearing a helmet.
The biggest minus to these vehicles is the lack of ventilation; as I understand it, the amount of airflow through the cockpit is a compromise between occupant comfort and aerodynamics. For this reason the concept of the human/electric velo will probably be the future of these HPVs.
gerv
03-11-07, 11:00 AM
Don't you think that thing would stink on a hot summer's day?
I-Like-To-Bike
03-11-07, 11:15 AM
Almost as practical as this:
kf5nd
03-11-07, 11:15 AM
Unworkable in Texas heat. Maybe OK for Northern Europe.
donrhummy
03-11-07, 02:58 PM
The biggest minus to these vehicles is the lack of ventilation; as I understand it, the amount of airflow through the cockpit is a compromise between occupant comfort and aerodynamics. For this reason the concept of the human/electric velo will probably be the future of these HPVs.
I agree. They're starting to be used in certain areas of Europe from what I've read but getting Americans to use them/trust them as an alternative to a car (not an alternative to the bike) will be a tough battle.
I-Like-To-Bike
03-11-07, 04:22 PM
I agree. They're starting to be used in certain areas of Europe...
Where? And used for what? By how many Europeans? If more than can be counted on the fingers of one hand I'd be amazed.
LandLuger
03-11-07, 04:56 PM
ILTB, if I were subject to your harsh winter I would give a velomobile serious consideration. Anyway, here are some pics from the '06 rally for your consideration.
http://www.cab-bike.com/english/year06.shtml
lyeinyoureye
03-11-07, 05:31 PM
As far as safety, there is a growing body of evidence in Europe--where these HPVs are vastly more prevalent--that survivability is greatly improved vs. a traditional bicycle.
That's what I've heard too. The carbon fiber/Kevlar shell is expensive, but it's designed to hold up to crashes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5Dapy1xUq0) at ~80mph w/o wearing through or cracking to the point that the rider's health is at risk.
The biggest minus to these vehicles is the lack of ventilation; as I understand it, the amount of airflow through the cockpit is a compromise between occupant comfort and aerodynamics. For this reason the concept of the human/electric velo will probably be the future of these HPVs.
A nice compromise would be a partially faired lowracer like the Windcheetah. There's ventilation, but the Cd is cut in more than half, so average speeds of ~30mph on human power are viable.
Something else I've been wondering about, everyone insists on small NiMH/NiCD/Li-whatever battery packs for conversions, but considering how cheap deep cycle lead acid batteries are, and how little power is needed to average 40mph on a partially faired trike, two in parallel are the way to go imo. ~1500W should be enough to get something like a Windcheetah (homebuilt?) to 40mph, and T-105s can output 75W(12V)=1800W for ~2 hours, less motor losses, ~maybe ~1500W plus whatever the rider wants to input. Should go ~60 miles@40mph@20% capacity. So... maybe ~30,000 mile lifetime, and costs of under a cent per mile. Probably cheaper than food too... :p They'll add ~120lbs, but at $100/kwh, they're way cheaper than any other battery format in bulk (~$500-800$/kwh) and def way cheaper than the packs that come with the kits, like bionix or whatevs (~$1000-2000/kwh).
Where? And used for what? By how many Europeans? If more than can be counted on the fingers of one hand I'd be amazed.
How many (http://youtube.com/watch?v=BmmWUzsnbhk) fingers (http://youtube.com/watch?v=t_6B3fxVN1A) you got? :p
I-Like-To-Bike
03-11-07, 06:20 PM
ILTB, if I were subject to your harsh winter I would give a velomobile serious consideration. Anyway, here are some pics from the '06 rally for your consideration.
http://www.cab-bike.com/english/year06.shtml
Well I am amazed that there are that many at all. Got any pictures of a unicycle or high wheeler get together? Those vehicles should be just as practical and popular for human powered transportation.
LandLuger
03-11-07, 06:42 PM
That's what I've heard too. The carbon fiber/Kevlar shell is expensive, but it's designed to hold up to crashes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5Dapy1xUq0) at ~80mph w/o wearing through or cracking to the point that the rider's health is at risk.
A nice compromise would be a partially faired lowracer like the Windcheetah. There's ventilation, but the Cd is cut in more than half, so average speeds of ~30mph on human power are viable.
Something else I've been wondering about, everyone insists on small NiMH/NiCD/Li-whatever battery packs for conversions, but considering how cheap deep cycle lead acid batteries are, and how little power is needed to average 40mph on a partially faired trike, two in parallel are the way to go imo. ~1500W should be enough to get something like a Windcheetah (homebuilt?) to 40mph, and T-105s can output 75W(12V)=1800W for ~2 hours, less motor losses, ~maybe ~1500W plus whatever the rider wants to input. Should go ~60 miles@40mph@20% capacity. So... maybe ~30,000 mile lifetime, and costs of under a cent per mile. Probably cheaper than food too... :p They'll add ~120lbs, but at $100/kwh, they're way cheaper than any other battery format in bulk (~$500-800$/kwh) and def way cheaper than the packs that come with the kits, like bionix or whatevs (~$1000-2000/kwh).
How many (http://youtube.com/watch?v=BmmWUzsnbhk) fingers (http://youtube.com/watch?v=t_6B3fxVN1A) you got? :p
I have championed the use of lead acid batteries in HPV applications for some time; however, most riders just can't get past the weight issue. My problem with other battery chemistries is that they have to be closely monitored and treated with kitten gloves to get the advertised life expectancy.
LandLuger
03-11-07, 06:56 PM
Well I am amazed that there are that many at all. Got any pictures of a unicycle or high wheeler get together? Those vehicles should be just as practical and popular for human powered transportation.
This is a blog of sorts that was written by the editor of Bentrider in early 2006 I believe.
http://www.cab-bike.com/news3d.shtml
For my purposes the velomobile is attractive for the weather protection, cargo capacity, speed (I'm a flatlander), and safety.
donrhummy
03-11-07, 08:35 PM
Where? And used for what? By how many Europeans? If more than can be counted on the fingers of one hand I'd be amazed.
I don't have the info on all of them but the TWIKE is just one of these vehicles. They've sold 750 in Switzerland and Germany alone. So, that's more than one hand. ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWIKE
le brad
03-11-07, 11:01 PM
Its kind of cute, but completly impractical and ridiculous looking. You think you get harassed by drivers NOW, wait till you roll up to the stop light in that thing.
KnhoJ
03-11-07, 11:56 PM
Well I am amazed that there are that many at all. Got any pictures of a unicycle or high wheeler get together? Those vehicles should be just as practical and popular for human powered transportation.
It's tough to haul groceries on a unicycle. Trust me.
So when did practicality start playing a part around the circa-five-digit dollar bicycle mark? :D I guess, you could say that velomobiles might just be among the most practical in this price range...
Cyclaholic
03-12-07, 01:10 AM
I don't have the info on all of them but the TWIKE is just one of these vehicles. They've sold 750 in Switzerland and Germany alone. So, that's more than one hand. ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWIKE
I love that TWIKE! are they available here in Australia? I can't find any info to suggest that they are.
lyeinyoureye
03-12-07, 01:28 AM
I have championed the use of lead acid batteries in HPV applications for some time; however, most riders just can't get past the weight issue. My problem with other battery chemistries is that they have to be closely monitored and treated with kitten gloves to get the advertised life expectancy.
That was a rational and reasonable statement. What are you doing in the car free sub forum? :p
Its kind of cute, but completly impractical and ridiculous looking. You think you get harassed by drivers NOW, wait till you roll up to the stop light in that thing.
BikezVCarz has been around for a long time, but bents, velos, and EVs with rider recharge like the Twike are generally treated with respect/room because they're unique.
I have no issues with cars other than normal cycling problems i.e. doors etc. and they will give a trike much more room and are far less inclined to cut you off...
Even heavily modded (~10-20mpg +) cars get this treatment.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/MikeMariettaSC/80MPG%20Honda%20Civic/aero20.jpg
I haven't had any problems with rude drivers since I gave my car the full aero treatment. Other drivers are too busy staring at my car to be thinking of behaving badly. My biggest problem is with people slowing down and pacing me in the passing lane while scoping out my car. In the meanwhile, traffic begins to pile up behind them. And the occasional driving who can't drive in a straight line while they are looking at something to their right who starts to drift into my lane while they are staring at my car. Fortunately my car is narrow and I tend to drive in the right portion of my lane.
oldguy52
03-12-07, 06:32 AM
Where? And used for what? By how many Europeans? If more than can be counted on the fingers of one hand I'd be amazed.
Here is a pretty good place to start learning about velomobiles. There's a few more than you can count on your fingers, I think.
http://www.velomobiling.com/
spambait11
03-12-07, 09:25 AM
The pic in the OP is not a velomobile, and at a stoplight, he'd probably use that landing gear. But stopping is not the name of the game as streamliners are only practical for racing, etc. Velos have at leasts three wheels for commuting/traveling practicality. A streamliner would suck going up a hill. In fact, a velo would also seem to suck going up a hill.
One of the biggest problems I've heard with velomobiles is that you can't turn around easily, or move in reverse. As long as you're going straight, though, you're fine. Maybe the battery assist should be used as a reverse gear so you can back those things out of your garage, that is, if you have a garage.
donrhummy
03-12-07, 10:28 AM
That was a rational and reasonable statement. What are you doing in the car free sub forum? :p
BikezVCarz has been around for a long time, but bents, velos, and EVs with rider recharge like the Twike are generally treated with respect/room because they're unique.
Even heavily modded (~10-20mpg +) cars get this treatment.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/MikeMariettaSC/80MPG%20Honda%20Civic/aero20.jpg
I looked up that basjoos guy on google and what he's doing is incredible if true. Is it really true that with no changes to a car's engine and only making the car more aerodynamic that he can increase his mpg from about 25 mpg to 79 mpg?! If this is true, why aren't more companies doing this so they can advertise, "Hey, our car beats even the hybrids with 70 mpg?"
BearsPaw
03-12-07, 03:44 PM
Are these things fast from the get go? Or are they only fast once you get going? I commute through the city for most of my ride, so there is a lot of stop and go. It seems like a heavier device like this would be a pain to start from a dead stop.
lyeinyoureye
03-12-07, 05:05 PM
I looked up that basjoos guy on google and what he's doing is incredible if true. Is it really true that with no changes to a car's engine and only making the car more aerodynamic that he can increase his mpg from about 25 mpg to 79 mpg?! If this is true, why aren't more companies doing this so they can advertise, "Hey, our car beats even the hybrids with 70 mpg?"
Well... He will accelerate up to some speed, kill the engine, and coast in N, which helps out with mileage. The engine's the same, he just operates it efficiently. All the aero mods help extend the coast time, and minimize the energy needed to cruise on the highway. Realistically, it's more like going from ~40mpg to ~70-90mpg with a change in driving style and some Crr/Cd changes. Believe it or not, for most cars (automatics), going 55mph with the cruise control instead of driving with everyone else will increase mileage by ~50% because of the lower average speed, no braking, and lock up clutch always being engaged. There's no secret to making fuel efficient cars... All they need to be is small, aerodynamic, and have small engines. 90mpg in the fifties was no problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KR200).
Having the second seat behind, rather than beside the driver and only a single rear wheel not only reduces frontal area but allows the body to taper like an aircraft fuselage, within a practical length. Ten horsepower (7 kW) propelled it at around 65 mph (105 km/h). The consumption of the car was 87 mpg (3.2 litres per 100 km).
Now, that's closer to 100mpg for a four seat compact, and ~300mpg (http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/gw/vw1litre.htm) for similar prototypes. But, there's no demand for them, so they aren't made... :rolleyes:
MI7D1
03-12-07, 05:38 PM
In the Portland OR - Vancouver WA area we are going to soon have three velomobiles. I have a WAW on order, due to ship from Belgium in a couple of weeks via the dealer in Van Nuys, CA.. It's in the process of being painted. There is a Go-One3 and a FAW kit soon to be shipped to Vancouver from the manufacture in Texas. The reason I chose a velomobile is mainly due to weather. I really don't like ridding in the rain and rain is just about all we have here in Portland, OR. The WAW can be ridden head in under the cap or the cap can be removed to ride head out.
There is a velomobile gathering in San Luis Obispo CA on the weekend of the 23rd of March. They are meeting in the parking lot of The Mortgage House, located at 1131 Monterrey Street in San Luis Obispo at 9:00am Saturday.
Bill
cerewa
03-12-07, 07:45 PM
But, there's no demand for them, so they aren't made...
In the USA, safety regulations and market demand combine to keep gas mileage well below that of the old cheap 90mpg two-seat car you mentioned. Emissions regulations also make it harder to produce affordable vehicles with good gas mileage, although I have no problem with that. Two stroke gas motors, carbureted motors, and air-cooled motors can be cheap and light, which makes them well suited to use in small high-mileage vehicles. But they're also bad for our air.
A streamliner would suck going up a hill. In fact, a velo would also seem to suck going up a hill. Adding a full-coverage body to a bike/trike usually adds 10-30 pounds. Going from two to three wheels also increases weight. For long hills and hills where you don't have a moving start, fully faired two wheelers aren't great and fully faired trikes are worse. In some situations the aerodynamic advantage makes up for the weight disadvantage on the uphills, especially if you consider them along with the downhills. Keep in mind that if you weigh 140 pounds and you're comparing a 20 pound bike to a 50 pound velomobile, the total weight difference is about 20% (190lbs/160lbs) and not 150%. Adding 30 pounds to a 20 pound bike will not make you ride it 2 and a half times slower.
hotbike
03-13-07, 11:35 AM
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q119/hotbike/Type6Velomobile1990.jpg
Here's a photo of the velomobile I built in 1989.(NFA Vehicles Type 6)
Weight: about 90 pounds.
Used lots of Kevlar, therefore crash-proof.
I had no problem with crosswinds, but then I have a pilot's liscence, so I know how to handle crosswinds.
Went 47MPH regularly.
It was wonderful to ride daily, even in a rainy spring when it didn't stop raining for two weeks.
It's unusual that it is an upright bike, not a recumbent.
Stopped using it on account it was too narrow,(20 inches wide) and I had to cram my shoulders in.
Eventually, the quarter inch plywood bulkheads rotted, and I scrapped it, ~1999.
I want to build another velomobile, but lower the seat, like a banana seat, back further.
The next one will be 6 inches lower and 6 inches wider, and will be all fiberglass.
I think there's a similarity between this velomobile and Peraves Ecomobile.
Yikes, the visibility looks pretty slim on that thing! Were you able to see peripherally?
hotbike
03-13-07, 04:08 PM
Yikes, the visibility looks pretty slim on that thing! Were you able to see peripherally?
I used two kinds of clear vinyl, clear and tinted.
The front has some plexiglass, then some clear clear vinyl, and the top is tinted vinyl.
The side windows are tinted vinyl.
This is the kind of vinyl that is sold to help insulate windows in houses.
I decided to scrap the machine because it was too narrow, so I didn't bother to "finish" the bike by putting acrylic "Plexiglass". Which is good in a way, because one time it fell over, and I was in a hurry to get out, so I cut the vinyl with a knife.
If you look closely, you'll see there is a rear view mirror bolted to the Kevlar, just in front of the side (tinted) window.
Hanging from the bottom of the tinted vinyl is a polystyrene board, reinforced with aluminum flashing on the edges(stronger than you'd think). Thus it opens like a gull-wing door. The aluminum flashing was bent/notched to make a clip that secures it to the rear edge of the fairing. The other side was taped shut- I only got in and out from the left.
I really want to build a new one, using all of what I learned from experience.
I'm thinking of making the front more like a wheelbarrow bucket, or like a dump truck body, and molding 2"x2" holes into it, so it will be like a "stake-side truck".
I want the top to come off easier, so I can take it off when it's not raining. That was the Type 6, did you see the type 5?
Here's the Type 5:
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q119/hotbike/Type5withPassenger.jpg
And here's the Type 9, which was designed by the girl (Mellisa) who is driving the Type 5 in the previous photo:
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q119/hotbike/Type9Pink2.jpg
Mellisa's Grandfather worked for the Grumman Aircraft Corporation during the war (WWII). He supervised the production of 11,000 Grumman Hellcat fighter planes. So Mellisa was well tutored in fiberglass design. The Type 9 was built of fiberglass, at a cost of $270 two hundred seventy dollars and sold for twelve hundred dollars ($1,200.00). That's a good profit.
lyeinyoureye
03-13-07, 05:01 PM
In the USA, safety regulations and market demand combine to keep gas mileage well below that of the old cheap 90mpg two-seat car you mentioned. Emissions regulations also make it harder to produce affordable vehicles with good gas mileage, although I have no problem with that. Two stroke gas motors, carbureted motors, and air-cooled motors can be cheap and light, which makes them well suited to use in small high-mileage vehicles. But they're also bad for our air.
I suppose, if one wanted to use a two stroke, air cooled, or carb'd vehicle, they could, but now there's no reason they can't use a fuel injected four stroke gas or diesel engine with emissions equipment at a slight weight penalty, something like 40-80lbs. Which is something, but not much. The 1L prototype was probably pretty safe too...
Despite its small size and light weight, Volkswagen says the 1-Litre-Car is as safe as a GT sports car registered for racing. With the aid of computer crash simulations, the car was designed with built-in crash tubes, pressure sensors for airbag control, and front crumple zones. Its aluminium fuel tank is located in a protected area behind the passengers. As well, the 1-Litre-Car includes ABS and ESP (electronic stability program).
But, and this is a big but. Any auto manufacturer has to shell out a lot of cash to have the car EPA/crash certified because America has requirements for the safety of unbelted passengers (?), so they won't take the results of any foreign tests. So, they shell out a lot of cash, and their car is a failure. Bad....
But, not quite as bad as it being a success. Lets say VW, or Toyota, or another foreign manufacturer offers a line of cars that get ~50-*300mpg, and they fly off the shelves. What would happen to the already ailing American auto industry? It'll get smacked hard, and unlike the current situation, they'll be able to blame it on foreign rivals, which means tariffs and whatnot. So, any excessive success in America would probably be bad for foreign industries. And if you look at the overseas offerings, they all provide higher mileage cars in the markets that allow it, but don't bring those over here. Because here, fuel efficiency standards are set by the big three. And... They don't make fuel efficient cars because there's no demand for them. Because they don't make them... Because there's no demand for them... etc... ;)
*Even if a diesel is twice as dirty as a gasoline motor, if it's six times more efficient, then the gasoline motor is three times dirtier per mile, which is what the EPA measures.