Advocacy & Safety - Joggers in Bike Lanes

I don't know if people have seen joggers in bicycle lanes, but in Seattle near the Greenlake area, I've often passed by joggers in the bicycle lane, or sometimes coming towards me the wrong way.

Despite my annoyance, I'm willing to share what lane space I have with joggers, but I'm not sure it's safe for all concerned.

Is there some convincing argument I might make to these people to stop using the lane?

...I've often passed by joggers in the bicycle lane ... Is there some convincing argument I might make to these people to stop using the lane?How about one of these:

The concrete sidewalk will be easier on your joints, as will stepping up to and down from the curb at intersections.
The surface variations of the grass shoulder will develop the strength of your ankles.
The travel lane is even wider than the bicycle lane.
If you don't get out of my way, I'm going to get angry (and I'm driving a bike!) ;)

Asphalt has more give than concrete, hence why they run on it. Concrete is horrible for the joints.

Joggers are entitled to be on the road as far to the side as practicable, and are supposed to run opposing traffic.

Remember, peds have right of way, whether in a crosswalk or not.

Joggers are ... are supposed to run opposing traffic.FYI: Pedestrians are supposed to travel in the opposite direction within the travel way, but technically they're also traffic (they're just not vehicular traffic). :)

I don't know if people have seen joggers in bicycle lanes, but in Seattle near the Greenlake area, I've often passed by joggers in the bicycle lane, or sometimes coming towards me the wrong way.

Despite my annoyance, I'm willing to share what lane space I have with joggers, but I'm not sure it's safe for all concerned.

Is there some convincing argument I might make to these people to stop using the lane?
Yeah, scream at them as you go by "Get off the f'ing road". After all, the road belongs to you, eh?:rolleyes:

I purposely run them down with extreme prejudice.

I just merge left into the through lane. You could complain to your city government, and ask them to do some sort of education campaign to encourage pedestrians to stay on the sidewalk. However, I recommend against personal confrontations out on the road. Keep your cycling experiences positive.

Remember, peds have right of way, whether in a crosswalk or not.

Actually, this is not true, at least in my state. This is the only question missed on the written portion of the driving exam as I though just like you that peds always have the ROW.

However, I always go around them with plenty of clearance when safe. Usually, if it's not safe for me to get around them they will get out of the way.

What really burns me up is when they run on the mountain bike trails at our local park. The park has specifically segregated equestrians, mountain bikers, and hikers with each having thier own set of trails. For some reason, the joggers prefer running on the mountain bike trails. In these cases, I will mow them down. :)

Az

The roads through Central Park in Manhattan have a pedestrian lane and a bike lane,both at the left side. Both are nice and wide. The pedestrian path is separated from the bike path by a sort of railing made from railroad ties or something. The bike lane is separated from the road by a bunch of zebra-striping painted onto the road, about three or four feet wide. The bike lane is clearly marked as a bike lane. The pedestrian paths have encouraging slogans such as "do not ride bicycles on paths" painted on them.

In terms of usage, it's a free-for-all. Slow walkers, often with children, dogs, etc., frequent the pedestrian paths, while bicycles, bicycle taxis, joggers, and other walkers, often with baby carriages, etc. share the bike path. Occasionally a jogger will get onto the pedestrian path to stretch, tie his shoes, etc. The faster bikes ride on the zebra stripe, but a lot of the faster joggers like to ride on the zebra stripe as well. It is not uncommon for two or three joggers to go down the bike lane side-by-side. The bicycles mostly go in the direction of traffic, while the joggers and other pedestrians go both ways.

It's anarchy, but it's a civilized anarchy. Nobody complains, even if a tourist with a camera stops right in the middle of the bike path.

Incidentally, just to get to the bike path I have to ride about a hundred yards of pedestrian path. I try to be polite to the pedestrians and kind to the dogs. Nobody complains.

If it's a MUP thorough a park or greenway, what's wrong with joggers. The only thing that bugs me is that they're all over the place and rarely wear lights at night. Last fall I nearly rammed one head on who darted into the oncoming side of the path at the last minute.

I just make sure they are aware of me by saying hello or good morning or good afternoon.

"On your left" doesn't work well as people hear that and tend to move left.

Yelling isn't required unless you are moving very fast and need to announce your arrival long in advance.

Share the road.

Exactly. Joggers w/o blinkies or lights deserve to get hurt when jogging in the BIKE LANE.

c'mon, it's simple -- foot travel is what sidewalks are made for; it's their purpose! streets are for wheels -- the only time pedestrians are OK in the streets is when there are no sidewalks (like my street). to all of you out there who say joggers are ok on the roads -- HELLO!?! EVER HEAR OF SOMETHING CALLED "JAYWALKING??"

not having bike lanes in my town, it's hard for me to relate to this particular problem, but hey -- joggers in bike lanes are like speedbumps, right?(LOL)

seriously, though....

I treat pedestrians in the bike lane the same way I want motorists to treat me when I'm using my bike in the travel lane. I just ignore them and move over to pass at safe distance.

We've had an interesting dynamic develop over the years. Along the Mississippi River in Minneapolis there's a dedicated pedestrian lane, a dedicated bikeway (with a 10 mph speed limit) with two way travel lanes, and then the 30mph limit Mississippi River Parkway that allows motor vehicles.

The runners are technically required to run on the pedestrian lane, however it's full of walkers with their dogs, their baby strollers, and unpredictable behavior. This makes it too hard for the "serious" jogger to use the lane (sound familiar), so they've slipped in mass over to the 10 mph bike lane. Now the bike lane is full of joggers. They make it hard for cyclist to use the bike lane, almost all cyclist have slipped over onto the parkway. The 10mph speed limit had most "serious" cyclist on the parkway already, but now the traffic has moved the Sunday cruisers onto the Parkway as well.

Scot

On the way home from work yesterday there was a jogger running WITH traffic in the poor excuse for a bike "lane"/shoulder/whatever at dusk, wearing a black and red sweatshirt and no reflective clothing----despite the existence of a sidewalk 4 feet away from him.

Wow, some of you sound a lot like the obnoxious jerks I encounter on the roads while biking. It's public space. Get over it.

Its much safer (at least here) to run in the shoulder/bike lane against traffic flow for the very same reasons its safer to not ride on the sidewalk - the runner and drivers have much better ability to see each other.
I used to run quite a bit and learned quickly to avoid right hooks, drivers pulling over sidewalk without looking, etc. by running non on the sidewalk. I was hit once my a driver exiting an alley while I was running along the sidewalk.
Of course as one is running against traffic one still needs to be aware that drivers are not going to look in your direction, but this is offset by the extras sightline one has to see them first. Of course I'll step off road onto curb/sidewalk to allow for approaching vehicles including bicycles. Pedestrians can move laterally very quickly.
Lots of runners here run in the bike lanes and its just as easy to pass them as it is to pass a slower cyclist.
Al

Not a problem. If they are facing traffic, they usually move over AND I check behind, signal and move out to ensure they have room. If they are running with traffic, I'll move out into the main traffic lane & pass. Occasionally I have shouted "bike!" If they can hear you (depends if they are wearing headphones) this is unambiguous (better than on your left) and they'll move over a little - for which I'll say thanks.
There is plenty of time to deal with any of the above situations - it's certainly not worth getting excited about.

Ed

I don't know if people have seen joggers in bicycle lanes, but in Seattle near the Greenlake area, I've often passed by joggers in the bicycle lane, or sometimes coming towards me the wrong way.

Despite my annoyance, I'm willing to share what lane space I have with joggers, but I'm not sure it's safe for all concerned.

Is there some convincing argument I might make to these people to stop using the lane?


I don't know if people have seen bicycles in automobile lanes, but in Seattle near the Greenlake area, I've often passed by bicycles in the automobile lane, or sometimes coming towards me the wrong way.

Despite my annoyance, I'm willing to share what lane space I have with bicycles, but I'm not sure it's safe for all concerned.

Is there some convincing argument I might make to these people to stop using the lane?

Sound familiar?

As my logic professor used to say in class, how does it feel when the foo is on the other shoot?

roughstuff

If its a hot female jogger wearing those hot shorts they always wear, I will slow down and draft behind her.:p

I don't mind pedestrians on bike paths/lanes... what I do mind is groups of pedestrians blocking the whole width of it and who don't budge even when prompted with a bike bell.

/I don't get mad.
//I get even.
///I pass them on the grass, then park my bike in the middle of the path in front of them, all perpendicular-like.
////I repeat as necessary.
/////The message, however subtle, gets across.

i've seen them. It's a clear statement to increase non-motorized accomodations integrated with the road grid, in my opinion. close off Greenlane way to cars entirely ;)? make them take aurora and side streets to get home?

Greenlake way is a racetrack most mornings, despite its neighborhood nature and two lanes.

I've seen joggers in the wide bike lane on Woodlawn avenue as well, jogging 3 abreast, taking up 12 feet of lane. Maybe the city needs to increase non-motorized accomodations so joggers, rollebladers, strollers, as well as bikes have space on the roads?

I like the way the road is striped out on Westlake Samammish way, and going towards Renton along lake washington. lane for peds, lane for bikes. greenlake might benefit from a similar restriping.

but the auto-centric nature of seattles' new 'bike master plan' makes that unlikely.

I pass them, though I could wish that they would not be using their iPods in the road. I find it so uncivilized to have to use my airhorn for a pedestrian. In this state, they are required to use the sidewalk when one exists. I've never seen a distinction made for running or jogging pedestrians as opposed to walking pedestrians. We do have sidewalks just about everywhere in town. I get the whole asphalt versus concrete thing, but we just have way too many bikes on the road here for it to work well.

... but we just have way too many bikes on the road here for it to work well.
Don't complain about too many bikes.;) You might be thought a Forester spouting elitist.:eek:

I don't know if people have seen bicycles in automobile lanes, but in Seattle near the Greenlake area, I've often passed by bicycles in the automobile lane, or sometimes coming towards me the wrong way.

Despite my annoyance, I'm willing to share what lane space I have with bicycles, but I'm not sure it's safe for all concerned.

Is there some convincing argument I might make to these people to stop using the lane?

Sound familiar?

As my logic professor used to say in class, how does it feel when the foo is on the other shoot?

roughstuff

+1!

Joggers are no different to bikes than bikes are to cars in the street. Live and let live. It's not that big of a deal. I'd use the street too if I jogged. Old neigborhoods have narrow sidewalks, and the big tree roots push up blocks making many many trip hazards.

Stroller moms jogging side by side flanked by golden retrievers on each side? That's cause for profanity.

Don't complain about too many bikes.;) You might be thought a Forester spouting elitist.:eek:
:p ;)

+1 on the increase in HPT!

I do have a frequent jogger-slalom going on on the MUP on my commute when I ride home at 1 pm. Not a big deal - though I do make a point of using the grass around large groups that block the path - sometimes resulting in mud flying :). Some cyclists beep, ding or 'on your left' for all jogger/ped passings, but as this occurs every 15-30 seconds or so at busy times I find it tiring and annoying - I just leave room for erratic behaviour and slow down.

I don't care anymore. At least they are outside exercising. However, I may be forced to pass them rather closely when cars are passing the bike lane.
Besides, most of the time this occurs on slow residential streets.

I don't mind pedestrians on bike paths/lanes... what I do mind is groups of pedestrians blocking the whole width of it and who don't budge even when prompted with a bike bell.

/I don't get mad.
//I get even.
///I pass them on the grass, then park my bike in the middle of the path in front of them, all perpendicular-like.
////I repeat as necessary.
/////The message, however subtle, gets across.


Well, as Ronald Reagan would say, there ya go again.....

I don't mind bicycles on car paths/lanes... what I do mind is groups of bicycles blocking the whole width of it and who don't budge even when prompted with a loud horn blast.

/I don't get mad.
//I get even.
///I pass them on the road, then park my car in the middle of the path in front of them, all perpendicular-like.
////I repeat as necessary.
/////The message, however subtle, gets across

roughstuff

roughstuff, you're being so antibike, dude. ;)

lighten up!

roughstuff, you're being so antibike, dude. ;)

lighten up!

Nope. Just trying to prevent the cycling community from getting the same 'we own the road' mentality that automobile drivers supposedly have.

roughstuff

It's the ones jogging three abreast or against the flow that are in the wrong.

Jogging against traffic is for streets, not MUPs where they are part of "traffic"; jogging/walking side by side to the point where they're taking more than their lane is inconsiderate.

I agree that the road should be shared with pedestrians independently of traffic law (with the note that even when peds are using the road unlawfully, vehicle drivers are expected to accomidate them safely.)

However a nitpick is that while cyclists and motor vehicle drivers are expected to share the road per law, pedestrians are technically not legally allowed to use the road linearly (i.e. not crossing) when there is a passable sidewalk present.

So while Roughstuff's word swap game is correct in sprit, there is a difference.

Al

I agree that the road should be shared with pedestrians independently of traffic law (with the note that even when peds are using the road unlawfully, vehicle drivers are expected to accomidate them safely.)

However a nitpick is that while cyclists and motor vehicle drivers are expected to share the road per law, pedestrians are technically not legally allowed to use the road linearly (i.e. not crossing) when there is a passable sidewalk present.

So while Roughstuff's word swap game is correct in sprit, there is a difference.

Al

Nope...no different. Just as a cyclist can judge about whether he is 'as far right as practicable,' a jogger can decide if a sidewalk is suitable for running. Most sidewalks are poor running surfaces because they are not built upon layers of sand and gravel as roads are, so they easily warp, crack, and get uneven. Either ya believe in multiple use of the roadway, or ya don't. That simple.

roughstuff

Nope...no different. Just as a cyclist can judge about whether he is 'as far right as practicable,' a jogger can decide if a sidewalk is suitable for running.
I believe in multiple uses, but in AZ ped law there is actually not exception if the sidewalk is unsuitable/unusable:
"28-796. Pedestrian on roadways
A. If sidewalks are provided, a pedestrian shall not walk along and on an adjacent roadway.
B. If sidewalks are not provided, a pedestrian walking along and on a highway shall walk when practicable only on the left side of the roadway or its shoulder facing traffic that may approach from the opposite direction."

It's the ones jogging three abreast or against the flow that are in the wrong.

Jogging against traffic is for streets, not MUPs where they are part of "traffic"; jogging/walking side by side to the point where they're taking more than their lane is inconsiderate.


agreed

People use the road. Deal with it.

Joggers or runners?

A sidewalk is not for running; it's for walking; hence the name.

In my younger years I lived and breathed running 24 hours a day (at least). You think cyclists get the short end of the stick? - think again. Cyclists are universally welcomed everywhere compared to runners. A world record holding runner may have to break into a track to train (or so I've heard).

You can't run at the track; you can't run on the sidewalk; you can't run on the road; you can't run on the golf course; you can't run anywhere. No wonder the US has had so little success in the Olympic distance running. Everybody wants to tell runners where they can't run.

Oh, heck! You can run where you want to - just make sure you know where the tee is so you know where the ball will be coming from. :D

And look out for those gopher holes!

I was one of few runners that I knew that actually could tolerate running on the sidewalk. But it does pose severe problems, over and above uneven and unforgiving surfaces. An empty sidewalk is one thing but a runner going 12+mph can terrorize walkers just as much as a bicyclist can.

An empty street is pretty good but I liked running on grass the best-- but often you have to run on the street to get somwhere where you can run on the grass (unless you ride a bike (which I used to do, too).

Live and let live. If you encounter other people using the roadway - deal. When I'm cycling, the only problem I have with runners running against traffic is that passing rules are undefined. I generally try to take the traffic lane early and pass the runner on the left (their right) although, technically left is wrong and right is right.

Just today as I saw a runner coming toward me and started to move left, he was making a definitive move to his right (which is probably what I would have done as a runner)-- so I moved right and continued on my merry way. Big deal. Who cares? It's all part of the dance. As long as they don't suddenly dart right into my path (which I've had happen), they don't bother me.

Others have as much right to use the road as I do.

I'm as free as a breeze
And I ride where I please
Saddle tramp
Saddle tramp

I believe in multiple uses, but in AZ ped law there is actually not exception if the sidewalk is unsuitable/unusable...Ain't discriminatory laws wonderful? :rolleyes:

I really hate it when I'm griding up a hill and some runner is going faster than me. Even worse are the rollerbladers that go faster than me on the flats.

Did you ever notice that running shoes almost always have reflective material on them? You would notice if you had lights on your bike. So if you complain about them in the dark, maybe you need a better light.

I have no issue with runners. If they are in the street I just let them stay nearer to the edge of the road as I pass.

I really hate it when I'm griding up a hill and some runner is going faster than me.

Back in the day (when I was a runner), I used to pass cyclists all the time going uphill (in fact, I was a little disappointed if I didn't pass a cyclist on a steep hill).

I generally pass rollerbladers when I'm cycling. Not too long ago, I was riding on a local bike path and saw a rollerblader behind me and gaining. We were approaching a fairly long hill and I figured I'd lose them on the hill. Despite the good effort I put into the hill, they kept gaining. As I reached the top of the hill, I started really cranking, figuring I'd leave them behind for sure. Bzzt! Wrong! This female rollerblader came flying past me. Yikes! I will never question if rollerbladers belong on the bike path again. I am truly honored to be allowed on the same bikepath with someone who can skate like that.

Joggers in the bike lane or road shoulder are a little annoying, irrespective of whether they have the right to be there (in my locality, no). They have they potential to force you into riding in a lane position you aren't fully comfortable with, possible compromising your safety while maintaining their own.
It's easily dealt with though: just move your own lane position to be slightly in the kerbside direction of the oncoming runner. They'll see you, and suddenly think 'Hell NO, I don't want to be between the cyclist and the cars', and quickly move to a position now on the kerbside of you. Whereupon you resume the line you formerly occupied. No unpleasantness or harsh words, just a little 'psychology'. Of course it won't work every time, especially when you don't see the runner early enough. In that situation I would prefer to brake rather than suddenly change lane position.

We get a lot of wrong way (right for them) joggers in the bike lane and I’m concerned about the conflicting nature of the direction of travel in the same lane. Does any state require joggers to travel in the same direction as cyclists in a bike lane?

People use the road. Deal with it.

Joggers or runners?

A sidewalk is not for running; it's for walking; hence the name.

In my younger years I lived and breathed running 24 hours a day (at least). You think cyclists get the short end of the stick? - think again. Cyclists are universally welcomed everywhere compared to runners. A world record holding runner may have to break into a track to train (or so I've heard).

You can't run at the track; you can't run on the sidewalk; you can't run on the road; you can't run on the golf course; you can't run anywhere. No wonder the US has had so little success in the Olympic distance running. Everybody wants to tell runners where they can't run.

Oh, heck! You can run where you want to - just make sure you know where the tee is so you know where the ball will be coming from. :D

And look out for those gopher holes!

I was one of few runners that I knew that actually could tolerate running on the sidewalk. But it does pose severe problems, over and above uneven and unforgiving surfaces. An empty sidewalk is one thing but a runner going 12+mph can terrorize walkers just as much as a bicyclist can.

An empty street is pretty good but I liked running on grass the best-- but often you have to run on the street to get somwhere where you can run on the grass (unless you ride a bike (which I used to do, too).

Live and let live. If you encounter other people using the roadway - deal. When I'm cycling, the only problem I have with runners running against traffic is that passing rules are undefined. I generally try to take the traffic lane early and pass the runner on the left (their right) although, technically left is wrong and right is right.

Just today as I saw a runner coming toward me and started to move left, he was making a definitive move to his right (which is probably what I would have done as a runner)-- so I moved right and continued on my merry way. Big deal. Who cares? It's all part of the dance. As long as they don't suddenly dart right into my path (which I've had happen), they don't bother me.

Others have as much right to use the road as I do.

I'm as free as a breeze
And I ride where I please
Saddle tramp
Saddle tramp


ummmmmmmmmmmmm I'm just sayin
A sidewalk (chiefly North American English), pavement (British English and Philadelphia dialect), footpath (Australian English, Irish English) or footway (Engineering term) is a path for pedestrians that is situated alongside a road or formed like sidewalks that are alongside roads (such as a cement footpath through a park). They are usually constructed of concrete (particularly in the United States and Canada), asphalt, brick (particularly in Europe), stone or (increasingly) rubber[1], designed for pedestrian traffic and often running alongside a road. In the 19th century and early 20th century, sidewalks of wood were also common in some locations. They may still be found at historic beach locations and in conservation areas to protect the land beneath and around, called boardwalks. Stone slabs called flagstones or flags are often used where an attractive appearance is required, as in historic town centres. In other places, pre-cast concrete slabs (called paving slabs or, less correctly, paving stones) are used. These may be coloured or textured to resemble stone.


:D people running or sidewalk running :D

a dedicated bikeway (with a 10 mph speed limit) Scot

Yuk. That's what they call a dedicated bikeway? And folks wonder why we bike riders take to the streets.

Caruso

I believe in multiple uses, but in AZ ped law there is actually not exception if the sidewalk is unsuitable/unusable


Ain't discriminatory laws wonderful? :rolleyes:
Oh, The Humanity!

What is the technical name for a legal-wannabe drama queen?

ChipcomMan says that, if a jogger wishes to jog on the roadways, they should use Vehicular Jogging and run with traffic, while if they jog on the sidewalk, they should use Pedestrian Jogging. If they want to jog in the bike lane or path, then they should use Cyclicular Jogging, which means jogging in the direction of traffic, while also using steely-eyed, alpha-dawg stares to communicate their intentions telepathically to cyclists.

If your bike lane or path is congested with joggers, perhaps you should consider Jogicular Cycling (JC) in order to conform to the rules of the road for joggers, as practiced by the majority of joggers. What that specifically entails is beyond even the omnipotent intellect of ChipcomMan, so you can probably do pretty much what you want, including just running them down. :eek:

ChipcomMan says that, if a jogger wishes to jog on the roadways, they should use Vehicular Jogging and run with traffic, while if they jog on the sidewalk, they should use Pedestrian Jogging. If they want to jog in the bike lane or path, then they should use Cyclicular Jogging, which means jogging in the direction of traffic, while also using steely-eyed, alpha-dawg stares to communicate their intentions telepathically to cyclists.

If your bike lane or path is congested with joggers, perhaps you should consider Jogicular Cycling (JC) in order to conform to the rules of the road for joggers, as practiced by the majority of joggers. What that specifically entails is beyond even the omnipotent intellect of ChipcomMan, so you can probably do pretty much what you want, including just running them down. :eek:
Bottom Line: What Would John Do?

If your bike lane or path is congested with joggers, perhaps you should consider Jogicular Cycling (JC) in order to conform to the rules of the road for joggers, as practiced by the majority of joggers.

To practice effective JC you should know techniques used "claim the lane" and assert your rights to the jogicular rules of the path.
- tying shoes
- lateral golden retriever placement
- tactical dog leash entanglement
- ipod headphone sharing