General Cycling Discussion - 2-way radios: WTF????

I dropped by my local Best Buy and picked up a pair of Motorola 32 channel GMRS 2-way radios on sale for 15 bucks. Figured it would be nice to have on group rides, and for 15 bucks you cant go wrong.

Looking at the enclosed info sheet, I evidently need an FCC license to operate these. Who knows why, but okay whatever. Off I go to the FCC website to register, when much to my suprise I find its going to cost me $75 bucks for a license!

What the heck?!?!?

So, how many of you with 2-way radios actually have a license? Should I bother? The chick on the FCC's consumer info hotline warned me of hefty fines and dire consequences if I use mine without a license.


This is like buying a car for $15,000 and finding out license and registration are going to cost me $75,000. What a ripoff.

Only buy the license if you really feel motivated. We were all supposed to have licenses for our CBs too. Enforcement is almost non-existent.

Well, the first 14 channels (FMR - I think that's what they're called) do not need licensing.

GMRS do. But like MisterJ said, most people do not have the license.

BTW, which model do you have??? $15 for 32 channels sounds like a great deal!

Originally posted by stumpjumper

This is like buying a car for $15,000 and finding out license and registration are going to cost me $75,000. What a ripoff.

Kinda remind me of this car-control measure:

Buying a car in Singapore is very expensive. This is because of some additional money to buy "permission to buy a car" that may be 75% of the cost of the car. :eek:

You are not too far off :D

Originally posted by MisterJ
Only buy the license if you really feel motivated. We were all supposed to have licenses for our CBs too. Enforcement is almost non-existent.

GMRS is different. There is enforcement.

I just did a google search on GMRS (General Mobile Radio Service). It sounds like it is a higher power complement to the FRS (Family Radio Service) bands.

The FRS are the handhelds you see joggers and people at theme parks carrying around and DO NOT require a liscense. They are 14 channel digital radios with privacy codes that act sort of like extra channels. They are cheap and conveniant, but the clarity could be better (I think the frequency might be too low for good digital quality).

Handheld GMRS are more powerful (2 watts instead of 1/2) and may also be operated from base stations of up to 50 watts. There are also special frequencies in GMRS which are used for repeaters stations, which can signifcantly extend the range of a handheld, if there is a repeater in range.
And yes, you are legally required to have the $75 liscence.

Another available band is the MURS (multi use radio service) citizens band (different from the original AM cb's which are still available). It operates at 2 watts and with 5 channels and does not require a liscence, but is not as popular currently as FRS or GMRS, so the radios cost more right now.

Of course, if you only bike in areas where there is cell phone service, one those new phones with "walkie talkie" features work pretty well.

I'd say return the radios to where you got them and pick up a pair of FRS radios. They cost about the same as what you paid and should work fine for cycling. Sorry for the essay, hope it helps.

Yes, there is a difference between GMRS and FRS. FRS is just the UHF equivalent of the old CB radios, and no licenses have been required for over a decade here in the US for any of the CB bands. CB bands are actually scattered all over the radio spectrum. Team Cycle Sport uses FRS radios every year on RAGBRAI, and fequently they can be found on our mountain bike excursions. They are just very handy to have. I don't know how aggressively the FCC will be monitoring the Ground Mobile Radio Service frequencies, but personally, considering the huge fines they can levy, I'd not risk it!

Originally posted by Cadd
Well, the first 14 channels (FMR - I think that's what they're called) do not need licensing.

GMRS do. But like MisterJ said, most people do not have the license.

BTW, which model do you have??? $15 for 32 channels sounds like a great deal!

Not True! The first 7 are both FRS and GMRS. If you are on one of those with a GMRS radio you are probably transmitting with the power of the GMRS and thus would be in violation. On those first 7 you can talk to someone else who has a FRS but you with a GMRS still need a license.

Bikers get a bad name for ignoring the laws of road use. Don't add to that the ignoring of radio rules.

I would not bother with a license. It is not like a HAM or shortwave radio that they will fine you for. Second I doubt they broadcast above 2 watt and the FCC will not come track you down for using them.

Originally posted by MattC
I would not bother with a license. It is not like a HAM or shortwave radio that they will fine you for. Second I doubt they broadcast above 2 watt and the FCC will not come track you down for using them.

They will fine you. The GMRS users monitor their channels and will report you to the FCC. It is not worth taking the chance. Use FRS (no license needed) or get a license.

Can't you get a restricted radio license for free?

Originally posted by RobertTank
They will fine you. The GMRS users monitor their channels and will report you to the FCC.

How are the other users going to know that Stumpjumper doesn't have a license? Are you required to identify yourself and your license everytime you use the radio? Just curious.

I would be suprised if anyone had any real problem with it if you weren't abusing the airwaves or harassing other users. On the other hand I probably wouldn't want to risk the fines and would either get the license or a different set of radios.

Why debate over liscences and fines. If there are no benefits to a risk you don't have to take (unliscenced GMRS) compared to a definitely acceptable action (FRS), why not be safe. Besides, if you start riding with larger groups, it will be easier to get in touch with them with FRS because others are more likely to have them.
I still say return the GMRS (they didn't explain everything you needed to know about the radios, so I'm sure they'll take them back) and get a set of FRS radios.

BTW, which model do you have??? $15 for 32 channels sounds like a great deal!
Oops, its not a Motorolla, its a Uniden GMRS540 (22 channels: 8 GMRS, 14 FRS, plus 7 weather/NOAA, has about a 2-mile range which is all I really need. ) They came as a set of 2 for about $15. Yeah, I thought it was a good deal too until I realized the FCC wanted to bend me over for a license :o


Bikers get a bad name for ignoring the laws of road use. Don't add to that the ignoring of radio rules.

Uh.. okay.
Somehow I dont see how using these particular channels in the backcountry is realy going to interfere with anything or even come close to the severity of ignoring the laws of road use and risking ones life/health and the health of others, but okay fine. I'm not sure anyone could tell I'm a cyclist by my voice, but again, ooookay ;) I'm also not going to argue if its legal or illegal, I just dont see any sense in charging five times the price of a tool for the privelage of using it legally. That quite frankly is crap.

Meaning no offense, just curiously Robert, why the strong opinion on this particular subject? I assume you Ham as a hobby or perhaps work for the FCC?

What can they do? Track you down on your bicycle way out in bfe and write you a citation! How will the fcc track you and know who you are if you are not using them but every so often on a ride?

Wait a sec...if it has the 14 FRS channels, you should be fine on those, as long as it only broadcasts 1/2 watt on those channels. Add in the availability to listen to NOAA channels and you've got a nice setup. I guess just leave it off of the GMRS channels.
2 for $15 bucks!?! That's outstanding. Those radios are normally $100+ for a handheld and I would imagine a bit more more for a base station.
My two cents - I doubt very much life or death traffic goes over the GMRS airwaves, but the FCC still can regulate the channels to ensure that they are used for what they are intended and those users who payed for the liscences have available what they payed for. There are, however, specific other wavelengths for emergency traffic.

Hey! Amazing what research can do. Check this out.

According to the specs, power output on ly lil' radio is only 500mW.

The FCC website says
"If you operate a radio that has been approved exclusively under the rules that apply to FRS, you are not required to have a license. FRS radios have a maximum power of ½ watt (500 milliwatt) effective radiated power and integral (non-detachable) antennas. If you operate a radio under the rules that apply to GMRS, you must have a GMRS license. GMRS radios generally transmit at higher power levels (1 to 5 watts is typical) and may have detachable antennas. "
...so I think I'm in the free and clear as far as power goes.

Also, according to the FCC site, 462-467 MHz is both the GMRS -and- FRS range of frequency. Is the only difference between the two power output???

Does this mean the only difference is power outout??


Indeed, according to this...
http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/personal/generalmobile/data/bandplan.html
...the first 7 frequencies are shared between the two services. The footnote at the bottom says:
"These channels are shared with the Family Radio Service. Any mobile station in a GMRS system may transmit on the 467.675 MHz channel to communicate through a mobile relay station transmitting on the 462.675 MHz channel."


Whelp? what do you think?

Holy crap, Lucky.. I looked around the internet and your right... The lowest price I can find for 2 is $38. These things must have been mismarked or something. I think I'll go back and check to see if they still have a few....

Originally posted by Chi
Can't you get a restricted radio license for free?


If you use a FRS radio there is no license needed.

Originally posted by MI_rider
How are the other users going to know that Stumpjumper doesn't have a license? Are you required to identify yourself and your license everytime you use the radio? Just curious.

I would be suprised if anyone had any real problem with it if you weren't abusing the airwaves or harassing other users. On the other hand I probably wouldn't want to risk the fines and would either get the license or a different set of radios.

On GMRS you must identify yourself during each transmittal. On FRS you do not have to identify yourself.

FRS is no license. GMRS requires a license.

Originally posted by stumpjumper
Oops, its not a Motorolla, its a Uniden GMRS540 (22 channels: 8 GMRS, 14 FRS, plus 7 weather/NOAA, has about a 2-mile range which is all I really need. ) They came as a set of 2 for about $15. Yeah, I thought it was a good deal too until I realized the FCC wanted to bend me over for a license :o



Uh.. okay.
Somehow I dont see how using these particular channels in the backcountry is realy going to interfere with anything or even come close to the severity of ignoring the laws of road use and risking ones life/health and the health of others, but okay fine. I'm not sure anyone could tell I'm a cyclist by my voice, but again, ooookay ;) I'm also not going to argue if its legal or illegal, I just dont see any sense in charging five times the price of a tool for the privelage of using it legally. That quite frankly is crap.

Meaning no offense, just curiously Robert, why the strong opinion on this particular subject? I assume you Ham as a hobby or perhaps work for the FCC?

No but I have researched the rules. I have strong opinions on things that are legal and not legal. (whether I agree or not). Stop signs, etc.

Indeed to many, an FRS radio, a GMRS or ham radio are all the same, but with different funny letters assigned to them.

Yes, many of these operate on UHF, but their frequency allocation, power levels and use designation may be different.

GMRS can be used with repeater systems, which will take your weak signal and retransmit it. These repeaters are operated by licensed GMRS owners who must bear responsibility for the use of their repeaters. This is not unlike ham radio. As such, if you use a GMRS radio on a repeater, or even simplex (point to point), you are expected to use your license call sign.

FRS is the Family Radio Service, which was designed with frequency allocations and power output for anyone to use without a license.

GMRS was developed for other reasons, although they are not mutually exclusive with FRS. Bottom line is that you need a license to use a GMRS radio. This license, unlike a ham radio license does not require any written test to show proficiency in radio theory, physics, electronics and international laws.

Yes, in this case, the cost of the license in respect to two radios for $15 sounds odd, but these radios were more costly when they first came out and the opposite was true. The radios were more expensive than the license.

When you pay the fee to get your driver's license, it is not based on the rising or falling value of automobiles or cheaper for a Geo than a Ferrari.

Sure, you can get away with using a GMRS without a license. Likewise, there are plenty of people who use ham radio frequencies illegally. Is it legal to do so? No. Will you get away with it? Most likely, although believe me, I have been involved in cases where illegal operators were found and charged. Those who take the time to do the right thing and invest money into their radios/repeaters, etc. want to protect their investment.

Basically, some bad-mouthed kid on an FRS radio can curse up a storm...with such little wattage, it will not go far. With the greater output of a GMRS radio and the ability to add an antenna with substantial gain and height, such actions can carry for miles, and many more on the repeaters. It is due to theses advantages that GMRS is more regulated.

On GMRS and ham radio, you are not anonymous and the users tend to be self-policing.

Ultimately, the choice is yours to do with the equipment what you wish. Any harm done or any lives in jeopardy? Basically not a chance. If you wish to use reliable short distance two-way communication on a tiny radio and without a license, you must use FRS.

Is this what someone might want to hear? I dunno, but they are the facts. At least the difference between FRS and GMRS won't be as cloudy.

The fact that you bought the radios only to find out later that you need a license is unfortunate. That information should have been more clearly conveyed on the package. Either way, the choice is yours to do as you wish, but at least you would have known before the purchase.

Best,
Rob

The FCC website says
"If you operate a radio under the rules that apply to GMRS, you must have a GMRS license. GMRS radios generally transmit at higher power levels (1 to 5 watts is typical) and may have detachable antennas. "
...so I think I'm in the free and clear as far as power goes.

Yep...it says if you use it like a GMRS radio (on one of the GMRS channels at power greater that 500 mW) you need a liscence. If you operate as an FRS radio, (less than 500 mW, on an FRS channel even if it is a channel shared with GMRS, I believe), you are in the clear. Just make sure you keep your radios set on FRS. If a lawyer wanted to be an @$$, the exact wording MIGHT allow prosecution based on the fact that the radios are GMRS capable, but only if the judge were dumb and you have enemies close to you to report you :D

Originally posted by Psykik
GMRS was developed for other reasons, although they are not mutually exclusive with FRS. Bottom line is that you need a license to use a GMRS radio. This license, unlike a ham radio license does not require any written test to show proficiency in radio theory, physics, electronics and international laws.
If no test is required then what good does it do to require the license? If the power output and antenna config is such that a license is required, then shouldn't the users be tested to make sure they know what they're doing with the equipment?

Originally posted by Grendel
If no test is required then what good does it do to require the license? If the power output and antenna config is such that a license is required, then shouldn't the users be tested to make sure they know what they're doing with the equipment?

The license, in this case is like a registration. No test is needed. This is a way to bring some organization to GMRS and to make users accountable, i.e. identifiable. Perhaps this does not make sense to some of you, (since I am a licensed Amateur Radio operator, the theory behind all of this is second-nature to me!) but there are various levels of frequency use with various levels of requirements and credentials.

For FRS, none.

For GMRS, minimal- the individual is licensed (registered)

Business Band radios (like security/stores use) The frequency used is licensed to the location and covers all entities using the radios.

Amateur (Ham) Radio- several levels of licensing in which the individual must show proficiency in various things, including Morse Code for certain frequency privileges.

The GMRS radios (I imagine FRS too) should have some sort of blurb about proper use, i.e. no cursing, using them to commit crimes. GMRS can be used for business purposes and are not on any frequency in which international communication will be held. For GMRS, common sense and common courtesy are the only real requirements for operations. Amateur Radio is far more complicated and through international laws requires certain things, and through Part 95 of the FCC rules, a whole bunch of other things.

I don't mean to become too technical here but in summation, GMRS although more powerful, upgradeable and repeater usable can still be operated without special testing. The extra abilities however causes the FCC to ask users to obtain an operator's license- no test required.

So in a nutshell, since I'm below .5 watts, and have a small integrated antenna, as long as I keep myself to the lower 7 channels, I'm safe & legal?

(By the way, thanks for the slew of good information everyone)

Stumpjumper,
What you said last is true, stick to the FRS w/ the .5 watt power w/ 2 mile or less range and you're golden with the FCC. You can use the bottom 14 channels not just the bottom 7, they are all FRS frequency.

Check your set up options, my 2-way has the ability to turn off the GMRS capable channels. When I do monitor them, there's nothing but static anyway.

2 for $15 was a killer deal.

eeeeexcellent, Smithers!

Originally posted by nebill
Yes, there is a difference between GMRS and FRS. FRS is just the UHF equivalent of the old CB radios, and no licenses have been required for over a decade here in the US for any of the CB bands. CB bands are actually scattered all over the radio spectrum. Team Cycle Sport uses FRS radios every year on RAGBRAI, and fequently they can be found on our mountain bike excursions. They are just very handy to have. I don't know how aggressively the FCC will be monitoring the Ground Mobile Radio Service frequencies, but personally, considering the huge fines they can levy, I'd not risk it!

Too much worry on such a small matter. They probably sold them for $15.00 because people brought em back because it required a license. And the old CB thing cracks me up like Cb's are something you might find at a flea market or antique store. I know guys that have CB's that put out 150 + wattage. I dont think the FCC will pull they're old vans with the directional anttenae on top. LOL. I crack me up. How about the guys that have Ham radios in they're vehicles. Which can be bought at your nearest truck stop. Yeah track down a mobile Ham radio. That should be fun.

Originally posted by kingajo
I dont think the FCC will pull they're old vans with the directional anttenae on top. LOL. I crack me up. How about the guys that have Ham radios in they're vehicles. Which can be bought at your nearest truck stop. Yeah track down a mobile Ham radio. That should be fun.

Well, you know who the chairman of the FCC is don't you? All he has to do is make a call to his brother and you might find an F-16 configured for Wild Weasel ops loosing a HARM on your position. :D

Originally posted by kingajo
How about the guys that have Ham radios in they're vehicles. Which can be bought at your nearest truck stop. Yeah track down a mobile Ham radio. That should be fun.

In NYC a few years back, the FCC did just that, along with the enforcement of the Taxi and Limousine Commission. Many taxis were using illegally modified and/or unlicensed radios for car to car talk. They were tracked down and cars were inspected. They didn't even need to bring out the F-16s to do it! ;)

And I would bet money that they din't catch everybody with an illelgal Radio. And more then likley they are still being used today. Just like Radar detectors and Radar Jammers aren't legal in Commercial Vehicles Doesn't mean that they aren't being used. The cops today have electronics to detect them in big trucks and Search the truck whenever and wherever they want. Either the road or the scale it doesn't matter but that doesn't deter people from using them. The chances of getting caught are very minimal so they will continue to be used legally and illegally, by all sorts of people.

MANY were caught since the FCC and TLC didn't just pop up and take action. They monitored and observed for a while. Many of these radios were installed by the garages, so routine inspections of the fleets were performed. Sure, some got by, but attacking the infrastructure of this illegal radio use helped to take a big chunk out of operations and made the ones left somewhat less useful.

Well, one other thing to keep in mind--you only need the license to broadcast. You can listen in for free. And if you should ever require to use the restricted stations in a life-threatening emergency call, you can hope they'll be merciful. ;)

I'm not sure I like the way this thread is going since the original question was should GMRS be used unliscenced, not could they. Remember guys, there's a difference between what you can get away with, and what is right.

To sum it up then-
To use the GMRS options of a two-way radio lawfully, one must fill out and send in the FCC application that should accompany the radio.

To use an FRS radio, one need only to operate it- no licensing for its legal use.

Rob

that sucks man... that's like buying a $15 light bulb but finding out you need a $75 fixture to mount it! worse yet, it's like buying a $15 bike frame but finding out you need a $75 headset and/or bottom bracket!

Originally posted by firebolt
Kinda remind me of this car-control measure:

Buying a car in Singapore is very expensive. This is because of some additional money to buy "permission to buy a car" that may be 75% of the cost of the car. :eek:

You are not too far off :D
yup, and you can't buy a car if you don't have a parking space.

it's like buying a $15 bike frame but finding out you need a $75 headset and/or bottom bracket!

Funny you should mention it, but theres someone here I can think of is installing a Chris King headset on his $35 nashbar frame. I just thought it was kinda ironic.
:D :D :D :D


To use the GMRS options of a two-way radio lawfully, one must fill out and send in the FCC application that should accompany the radio.
actually, you have to contact the FCC and have the froms sent to you, then pay $75 for your 5-year license. I dont care about the forms, its the excessive cost of the licensing to use something that should be relatively low cost.

At any rate, no worries. I'm just sticking to channel 1-7 (the FRS range) for all of my needs. If I have an emergency and desperately need the GMRS channels (as Inkwolf mentioned) then I'll use em without a regret. I'm not laying in the backcountry with a broken leg for days because I dont have a license ;)

I recently bought two small belt-clip radios from Radio Shack for $30, and I got a $10 rebate. They work great! They will transmit up to 2 miles, so if your riding partner gets ahead of you, you can communicate. They have 14 channels. I used them last week at a big amusement park to communicate with my kids, so I always knew where they were. Next week, we are driving to Virginia and bringing a second car back to Kentucky. We plan to use them to keep in touch on the road. Ain't technology great? :beer: