Touring - Climbing while loaded.

My apologies if this has been discussed already.

When it comes to climbing, is there a difference between having only a fully loaded rear, as opposed to having an equally distributed load between rear and front?

Same as on the flats, a rear load is less stable than front and rear, but you can feel it a lot more since you aren't going as fast. Another issue could be the front wheel lifting off the ground on very steep climbs.

I have ridden with the bulk of my luggage weight on the rear rack, and the bulk of my luggage weight on the front rack.

Climbing is easier when the bulk of my luggage weight is on the front rack. However, descending can be a little scarier. I have actually switched my panniers back and forth on a few rides. To the front for the climb and to the rear for the descent.

Another interesting thread. And sorry for hijacking your thread but I have a related question.

I "credit card" toured last year. It sure is amazing what some clothes, a few tools and a grooming kit can add up to.

I can get pretty much everything in my small panniers plus a small backpack strapped to the top of the rack. Would I be better off going with a front rack too? Would it be the rack be worth the extra weight considering my light load?

I can't see how you folks do it carrying tent, sleeping bag, cooking gear and food on top of what you might bring on a "credit card" tour.

I have similar concerns; I think I might face "diminishing returns" if i mount a front rack w/panniers, since I've got my gear down to sub 20lbs (inspired by the recent thread on that.) does anyone have an idea/experience regarding weight limits for rear-pannier-only touring, eg. at what weight does it become too unwieldly?

The limit is yours to define. I've toured fully loaded (including a tripod!) with rear panniers only and never had a problem. It's only annoying at slow speed. I'm more concerned about all that dead weight on the rear wheel. For credit-card touring, I wouldn't add a front rack. A bar bag and a single pannier (15L) is enough for me.

I have similar concerns; I think I might face "diminishing returns" if i mount a front rack w/panniers, since I've got my gear down to sub 20lbs (inspired by the recent thread on that.) does anyone have an idea/experience regarding weight limits for rear-pannier-only touring, eg. at what weight does it become too unwieldly?

There is no way anyone can give you a useful answer. It depends so much on you, your bike and where you'll be riding. If you have a bike with a rear rack and panniers it is fairly easy to run some tests and see what works for you.

One word of caution though - a load that seems unstable the in the first five mins could be fine after an hour or two. I have started tours worried about how unstable my bike was and forgotten about it by the end of day 1. It may take a little time to get used to a particular configuration.

I can't see how you folks do it carrying tent, sleeping bag, cooking gear and food on top of what you might bring on a "credit card" tour.

Look at the packing list on this post (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=1320687&postcount=15). Everything went inside those panniers (http://www.borealphoto.com/articles/plein-air/velo/peugeot/05.jpg). Personnally, I wonder why I bring 4 panniers sometimes. :D

Just looking at it, your front wheel is much stronger than your rear wheel because it isn't dished for all those cogs. Also, most of your person's weight is on your weaker rear wheel, so why not stack up what you can on the stronger front?

Oh, this isn't about drinking!

Just looking at it, your front wheel is much stronger than your rear wheel because it isn't dished for all those cogs. Also, most of your person's weight is on your weaker rear wheel, so why not stack up what you can on the stronger front?

Exactly!! Precisely why I ride with my panniers on the front most of the time. The only time I ride with them on the back is if I'm just out for a little overnight tour, or if I know I'll be negotiating a lot of steep descents.

And having the panniers on the front seemed to stabilize my bicycle and improve his handling.

Oh, this isn't about drinking!
:D

My apologies if this has been discussed already.

When it comes to climbing, is there a difference between having only a fully loaded rear, as opposed to having an equally distributed load between rear and front?

It's a personal choice really. I've never liked the 'tail wagging the dog' feel of a heavy rear load (even commuting with a trunk bag I can get this feel) especially on high speed descents or when standing. I have similar problems with a trailer which is just an extreme version of rear mounted bags. Front bags, with 60% of the load, dampen the steering and make descents more controllable in my experience.

Another interesting thread. And sorry for hijacking your thread but I have a related question.

I "credit card" toured last year. It sure is amazing what some clothes, a few tools and a grooming kit can add up to.

I can get pretty much everything in my small panniers plus a small backpack strapped to the top of the rack. Would I be better off going with a front rack too? Would it be the rack be worth the extra weight considering my light load?

I can't see how you folks do it carrying tent, sleeping bag, cooking gear and food on top of what you might bring on a "credit card" tour.

It depends on how spartan you want to go and where you tour. I've done the two ends of the Lewis and Clark Trail in recent years. There's vast stretches where your credit card won't do anything for you so you need to carry lots of stuff that you might not need to in more civilized areas. (And trust me, the eastern end is less civilized than the western end;) ) I carry more in the way of clothing than most people would since I don't like doing laundry every night. I don't carry any electronics but I do carry a least one and possibly 3 paper back books as well as paper and writing stuff for letters. Those are heavy.

Lots of people don't mind living in bivy sacks but I couldn't. I need a little space to sit up in when it rains or when I'm chewing through one of those 3 books (I've been know to finish one in a night. I need to start carrying Russian literature;) ). Lot's of people are satisfied with a tarp and a sleeping bag but I find that I get woozy when I lose that much blood!

And finally, it's all about training. Six to 8 weeks before a tour, I start to carry loads of rice around everywhere I ride and I increase the weight by 5 lbs (starting from 20) once or twice a week until I'm carrying close to the load that I'm going to carry. When you live in a hilly, mountainous high altitude area, dropping down to lower altitudes gives you a distinct advantage:D

Exactly!! Precisely why I ride with my panniers on the front most of the time. The only time I ride with them on the back is if I'm just out for a little overnight tour, or if I know I'll be negotiating a lot of steep descents.

And having the panniers on the front seemed to stabilize my bicycle and improve his handling.

Awesome! I'm in the process of building up touring stuff and that's what I'm planning to do. I think it increases handling by lowering and centering your center of gravity, front panniers always look lower than rear ones to me. Also all that weight on the fork probably makes it harder to move off center.

It's mostly matching the load, the bike and the rider. Some tips that work for me.

1. I never stand to climb. Standing generates lots of torque and racers do it....but for touring, commuting, general rec. rding, why do it? Standing makes the bike sway side to side and on a loaded bike, you could just tip over and crash.

2. Lower gears work the best. If you're not going to stand and mash the petals to climb, you have to down shift and spin lower gears. Sit and spin--- enjoy yourself!

Just looking at it, your front wheel is much stronger than your rear wheel because it isn't dished for all those cogs. Also, most of your person's weight is on your weaker rear wheel, so why not stack up what you can on the stronger front?

This is true. I've broken a lot of spokes on the rear wheel, never any on the front. I'd try to load up the front first for this reason. However, when the load starts to get pretty heavy, I prefer balance, so I'd go with both rear and front, rather than just front.

One more theoretical thing: As mountain bikers know well, when you're climbing, your center of gravity shifts backwards and you're more likely to wheelie. This also means more weight would be over your rear wheel, and you'd be more likely to break spokes. (Did I mention, I've broken a lot?)

This is true. I've broken a lot of spokes on the rear wheel, never any on the front. ....[snip]... (Did I mention, I've broken a lot?)

If you are breaking a lot of spokes than:

a) you are overloading your wheels grossly

b) have poorly built wheels

A well built wheel designed for fully loaded touring shouldn't break spokes at all.

It's mostly matching the load, the bike and the rider. Some tips that work for me.

1. I never stand to climb. Standing generates lots of torque and racers do it....but for touring, commuting, general rec. rding, why do it? Standing makes the bike sway side to side and on a loaded bike, you could just tip over and crash.

'Cause my butt hurts! :eek: ;) It's nice to stretch the legs occasionally, too.

A well built wheel designed for fully loaded touring shouldn't break spokes at all.

In the real world stuff happens. Even well built wheels will occasionally pop a spoke. Rough roads, hit a pothole, maybe pushing the wheels weight limits some, standing up to try and sprint to the top of a hill :o etc. It just happens.

I toured once with 2 60 litre panniers on the front, and none on the rear. It worked OK with a couple of exceptions. The steering mostly felt very stable, except at low speeds and while performing tight manouevers,when it became quite hard to control properly. This tended to make starting on steep grades even more difficult. I also found that if I did stand to get any more power on a very steep grade, the rear tire would lose traction. Mostly it was easy to deal with though.

I toured once with 2 60 litre panniers on the front, and none on the rear. It worked OK with a couple of exceptions. The steering mostly felt very stable, except at low speeds and while performing tight manouevers,when it became quite hard to control properly. This tended to make starting on steep grades even more difficult. I also found that if I did stand to get any more power on a very steep grade, the rear tire would lose traction. Mostly it was easy to deal with though.

Any idea how much weight was in the panniers?

Probably about 25-30 lb including the weight of the bag themselves - not overly heavy compared to international tourists, as I was touring in my own country and didn't need quite as much stuff. I also had a handle bar bag which added another few pounds of weight.

One word of caution though - a load that seems unstable the in the first five mins could be fine after an hour or two. I have started tours worried about how unstable my bike was and forgotten about it by the end of day 1. It may take a little time to get used to a particular configuration.

Excellent point. The first time I used front panniers was in spring 2005. I was on a backroad in VA next to a ditch. For some reason, I had to turn my wheel just a bit, and the next thing I knew the front-weight seemed to pull me into the ditch (nothing serious). The front load wasn't that heavy; it was just new to me. By the end of the day or before, I had adjusted my body and thinking to the new, front weight, and never had a problem afterward.

David in FL

In the real world stuff happens. Even well built wheels will occasionally pop a spoke. Rough roads, hit a pothole, maybe pushing the wheels weight limits some, standing up to try and sprint to the top of a hill :o etc. It just happens.

Okay hitting a severe pot hole would be "not normal use" and I could see breaking a spoke. Over loading a wheel is also beyond normal use. But, I submit that a well built wheel loaded appropriately to its design should not break any spokes - especially shouldn't break lots of spokes as was mentioned above. Of course this doesn't include accidents or things getting caught in the spokes, cars running over the wheel, etc..

Okay hitting a severe pot hole would be "not normal use" and I could see breaking a spoke. Over loading a wheel is also beyond normal use. But, I submit that a well built wheel loaded appropriately to its design should not break any spokes - especially shouldn't break lots of spokes as was mentioned above. Of course this doesn't include accidents or things getting caught in the spokes, cars running over the wheel, etc..

Given the design of wheels and spokes I'm not sure that I'd agree even if you don't overload a wheel. For most hubs, the spoke hole is 2.3mm in diameter, a 14 g (2.0mm diameter) spoke doesn't fit in the hole of the hub very well. Since the wheel is a dynamic structure, the rim is alway flexing up and down as it turns. Each time the spoke flexes there is the possibility...and even the probability...that the spoke moves up and down that 0.3mm. On a thin wire like a spoke there is only so far you can force it back and forth until something breaks. Of course putting more stress on the wheel by loading the bike with a large person and a large load isn't going to help.

The failure of spokes because of movement is the reason that I build my wheels with Alpine III spokes. There's no room for the spoke to move...okay, maybe 0.01mm;) It's worked well enough that I have a 5+ year old mountain bike wheel that's the first one I've ever had that hasn't broken any spokes in that amount of time.

I was puzzling about this topic this morning on my ride in an wondering if straight pull spokes wouldn't be a better choice for touring. No bend to flex or be the weak point.

Actually the spoke would only move if it were to lose all tension an go into compression, otherwise the tension keeps the elbow against the hub in the same spot. This would be extremely unlikely because usually each spoke carries something like 60 kilograms of tension or more and you're typically loading 4 spokes at a time, maybe 5 if its a 36 spoke wheel.

Read "The Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt.

Butted spokes are actually more fatigue resistant than straight gauge spokes.

The "weak point" is actually at the nipple and at the elbow where most of the stress from concentrators like threads and the bend is. By butting the spoke the middle will flex the most while the thicker ends will be effected less. This distributes the stress instead of having it even higher at the ends of the spoke, extending fatigue life.

Butted spokes make for a longer lasting but not quite as stiff wheel. Straight gauge spokes will build a stiffer wheel but it won't really be stronger.

It's a personal choice really. I've never liked the 'tail wagging the dog' feel of a heavy rear load (even commuting with a trunk bag I can get this feel) especially on high speed descents or when standing. I have similar problems with a trailer which is just an extreme version of rear mounted bags. Front bags, with 60% of the load, dampen the steering and make descents more controllable in my experience.

This is how I feel about load distribution, too. I strongly dislike the sensation of the back wheel trying to push the front to the outside of corners. As the load gets bigger, the feeling that the front wheel just wants to keep plowing along in a straight line instead of tracking around the line I'm trying to set with the handlebars just gets stronger and stronger. This was worse on my old Miyata touring bike, but it definitely happens on my much nicer Surly LHT as well. Recently, I've tried throwing my bags on the front rack. The difference is astounding. Steering is a bit slower, but the effect on handling is almost as if the weight weren't on the bike at all. The next time I tour, I'm downsizing the rear panniers and putting more in front.