"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Basic Training question

I did intervals today - started with 1 minute sessions, moved up to 2 mins., then 4+ minute jams. Recovered between each jam ( no HR monitor, I generally know when I'm recovered). That was a 10 mile warm up followed by 28 miles of intervals (hilly, windy terrain, about 1:30 of more or less continuous intervals/recovery), followed by 12 mile spin back home, 50 mile ride. This week:

Monday - very easy recovery spin, small ring - 30 mi

Tuesday (today) - intervals, 50 miles

Wed (tomorrow) - lower gears, 35 miles, some hills, semi-recovery

Thurs - hill repeats, 6x up 2 similar 1.5 mile climbs (either side of a ridge), about a 35 mile ride.

Fri. - small ring recovery spin, 45mi.

Sat. - 20 mile circuit race,

Sun- 35-40mi hard group ride (similar to a race, longer)

The question is this: I presume I can go hard two days during my week and then harder on the weekend again if I allow recovery days (Monday, Wed, Fri). I'm 49. My legs are fried today after that interval session. Does the schedule above work? Not enough rest? I'm not sure how you train to race without putting the kind of miles describe above, but not sure if that recovery time/agenda is sufficient.

And yes Dr. Pete, I promise to use the HR monitor next week. Sorry coach.

Looks good assuming your recovery is truly recovery. But then again with the mileage you are used to, I think you would be fine. Listen to your body. If it feels like you are getting worn down or you start getting sick, it's too much.

Just IMO,your monday 30mi seems like an awful long recovery ride. I think you might be better served by cutting that down to 1-1 1/2 hrs, something around 15mi max. You just want to spin your legs out. Everyone can use a day off (or almost off) once a week.

I think your recovery rides are too long. If you cream yourself the way you should with those intervals...I think it's likely you'll recover faster with 1 short recovery ride and one day off the bike. My apologies to your aching back.

Edit: Penguin has spoken for me already, I see.

I'd take a full day off the bike on Monday, or at least go no longer than 45 minutes - 1 hour. It really isn't that bad to take a day off the bike, and it is useful if recovery rides end up being a little harder than they should be.

Well, you're missing one of the most important workouts: sprints. I'd substitute your Wed ride with sprints, followed by easy spin miles.

+1 to shortening or eliminating Monday

Fri. - small ring recovery spin, 45mi.

Sat. - 20 mile circuit race,
That's pretty crazy. Generally the day before a race I'll ride maybe 10 miles, mostly noodling with my hr around 50-60%, with 3 all out sprints thrown in for good measure. You want to keep your legs fresh and ready to rumble...you might consider moving some of your friday mileage to wednesday and change that ride into a longer base effort one, or maybe discard the extra mileage altogether.

You're basically doing intervals Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, and Sunday... that's plenty :)

Thanks for the input boys. It's a work in progress. Or lack of same, whichever the case may be : ).

all good stuff here.

fwiw - last year i was racing once a week, on saturdays. i would have long, and reasonably hard ride on sundays, and a group ride on tuesdays with 4-5 guys, which was basically like a group interval session.

apart from those three days, i went on bike walks of various durations, but almost always the same intensity - next to none.

ymmv.

Thanks for the input boys. It's a work in progress. Or lack of same, whichever the case may be : ).

Rest is your friend.

Your interval days are too long. 50 miles with intervals isn't a great way to train your body to react to the interval itself. Intervals should be 2 hours, max. 30 minutes warmup, an hour of intervals and 30 minute spin-out. This way, you HR is up when it needs to be and down at the end, like it should be.

My old coach, who raced in Eastern Europe, when the Iron Curtain was still up, introduced me to this concept.

Whatever workout you are going to do, go do it and go home. Don't try to include a workout in a regular ride.

IMO, you are on the bike too much. It's not how much you ride, it's how much you rest...

Wednesday, March 14th, 2007, 8:40 AM:

damocles1 and I agreed. :beer:

Your interval days are too long. 50 miles with intervals isn't a great way to train your body to react to the interval itself. Intervals should be 2 hours, max. 30 minutes warmup, an hour of intervals and 30 minute spin-out. This way, you HR is up when it needs to be and down at the end, like it should be.

My old coach, who raced in Eastern Europe, when the Iron Curtain was still up, introduced me to this concept.

Whatever workout you are going to do, go do it and go home. Don't try to include a workout in a regular ride.

IMO, you are on the bike too much. It's not how much you ride, it's how much you rest...

+1. I think you have too much emphasis on miles. Miles are only a biproduct of training. You should focus on time and intensity not miles. If you're "fried" the extra mileage is just junk and is adding to fatigue without benefitting your fitness.

FWIW - the past month for me (cat 3) has been a heavy build period, I've not been on the bike more than 9.5 hrs. in any one week during that time. That equates to roughly (lots of it has been on the indoor trainer) 160 - 170 miles/week, whereas your plan below has ~250 miles/week. For 20 mi. circuit races, you dont need 250 mi/week unless your body is able to handle that load and adapt positively, which based on your post doesnt seem to be the case.

Interesting to read folks recommending less time on the bike. I guess it depends on what you and your body are used to.

Assuming slow paces for recovery, I'm guessing time on the bike looks like this:
Mon 2 hrs
Tue 2.5 hrs
Wed 1.75-2hrs
Thur 1.75-2hrs
Fri 2.5-3 hrs
Sat ~1 hr (including warmup/cooldowns)
Sun 1.75-2 hrs

Assuming longest times for everything, we're talking 14 hrs in a week of training. That's not so out of this world.

If the easy spins are actually easy spins, and you're feeling recovered, right on. I have a tendency to not "easy spin" so I get a full day off once a week and my day after threshold is a longer endurance ride at low level 1. (50-60 miles) I still have to be careful to not push it on these days if I'm feeling fresh because I'll pay for it in later workouts in the week. (I'll pay for today probably :P)

ACK! All ya need is a "T"-patch and Jim Beam and get on with it. :rolleyes:

[tic]

Interesting to read folks recommending less time on the bike. I guess it depends on what you and your body are used to.

Assuming slow paces for recovery, I'm guessing time on the bike looks like this:
Mon 2 hrs
Tue 2.5 hrs
Wed 1.75-2hrs
Thur 1.75-2hrs
Fri 2.5-3 hrs
Sat ~1 hr (including warmup/cooldowns)
Sun 1.75-2 hrs

Assuming longest times for everything, we're talking 14 hrs in a week of training. That's not so out of this world.

If the easy spins are actually easy spins, and you're feeling recovered, right on. I have a tendency to not "easy spin" so I get a full day off once a week and my day after threshold is a longer endurance ride at low level 1. (50-60 miles) I still have to be careful to not push it on these days if I'm feeling fresh because I'll pay for it in later workouts in the week. (I'll pay for today probably :P)

Yeah. Experience often leads to "interesting" advice.

Interesting to read folks recommending less time on the bike. I guess it depends on what you and your body are used to.

Assuming slow paces for recovery, I'm guessing time on the bike looks like this:
Mon 2 hrs
Tue 2.5 hrs
Wed 1.75-2hrs
Thur 1.75-2hrs
Fri 2.5-3 hrs
Sat ~1 hr (including warmup/cooldowns)
Sun 1.75-2 hrs

Assuming longest times for everything, we're talking 14 hrs in a week of training. That's not so out of this world.

If the easy spins are actually easy spins, and you're feeling recovered, right on. I have a tendency to not "easy spin" so I get a full day off once a week and my day after threshold is a longer endurance ride at low level 1. (50-60 miles) I still have to be careful to not push it on these days if I'm feeling fresh because I'll pay for it in later workouts in the week. (I'll pay for today probably :P)
You can do a lot of with quality training hours. Given the length of races most of us compete in, weekly hours don't need to be that extreme.

I wouldn't say 14 hours is out of this world. For me, however, it is in the upper range of what I can do given intervals and other focused training during the week. When I was doing winter base, I could handle about 15 hours, but that was all rather low intensity work.

Assuming longest times for everything, we're talking 14 hrs in a week of training. That's not so out of this world.

I know Cat 1s who train 15 hours a week. I can't see a need to train more than them unless you're doing grand tours.

Yeah. Experience often leads to "interesting" advice.

No argument there. I would also say that some of the most interesting advice I've been given has not always been the best advice.

It's also interesting that most folks get the following response when they ask how to get faster:


Ride more, ride harder

People will say that the one pros get better than the next because they spend BETTER and MORE time on the bike. (aside from assumption that genetics underly that)

Here we have someone posting they ride in the "more" category, and most responses say "ride less." I'm not saying he couldn't benefit from the full day off on Monday - I know I do. The same amount of time might be better distributed elsewhere in the schedule for more upper level work with the full day off. (maybe add distance to the Sunday ride to stretch into the 4 hr range)

Anyway... just observations.

Looks good assuming your recovery is truly recovery. But then again with the mileage you are used to, I think you would be fine. Listen to your body. If it feels like you are getting worn down or you start getting sick, it's too much.


100% agree....

Dont listen to those posting saying "too much interval work" or "not enough rest". If you body can handle it than go for it. It all comes down to you and how you feel.

Just keep in mind its not all about the miles you put in but what you put in the miles you do. For some that means they need to ride less, some need to ride more. In the end (again) you have to be honest with yourself. Dont cheat your body from having a good workout because a book says to rest and dont cheat your body by working out too much thus not able to put in the proper effort.

A 50 mi day with intervals would fry me, and would lead to slower intervals. Tendency is for the intervals to be slower than they could be. As I've aged this is more and more the case, rarely have a flat interval day with over an hour to hour and a half on the bike. Do you cycle? Have you thought about occasionally riding a pattern of 2 hard days one (or two) easy?

Agree you need to monitor your heart rate, and keep it down, on the easy days. I don't think the time on bike is excessive if your easy (zone 2) rides are kept under control. And if you cycle down to an 8 to 10 hr week every 4th or so.

Be carefull when compairing your training to "Pros", they are competing in a different sport with different physical demands, and are able to (and do) slack pretty much all of their off bike time.

I don't disagree with the 'ride less miles' advice - after 13,000+ miles last year, I am riding less this year. But many racers ride 5000-8000 miles annually - and I'm reasonably sure I need to ride more like 10-12K miles to be a happy camper for a number of reasons. But I am focusing much harder on going VERY easy on the easy days and upping the intensity on the hard days. That alone should start to make me stronger. We'll see. Like I said, work in progress. Can I make this work and have fun racing? We'll see.

Racing would be more important to me if I didn't suck at it. Could I get better? Yes. Do I want to compromise some of what I love about cycling to get there? I'm not sure it's worth it to me. I'm trying to strike a happy medium. Ultimately I enjoy riding with the racing guys on weekends more than the racing itself, but find it's pretty hard to do those rides if you don't have the speed/fitness you get from actual races.

I think there is a real tendency among most folks to want to ride more than we need. One, we like to ride, Two, the thought that more is better, protestant work ethic, and Three, it's easier to ride a lot of moderately hard miles, than it is to ride less but with a very structured, often painful program.

For your basic 45 minute crit, 35 mile RR, type program, if your doing more than about 150-175 a week, the extra miles are costing you energy that could be focused on intensity.

Don't think of higher intensity as "riding less". Even if you arn't training just to race learn to take some enjoyment and satisfaction out of going fast as well as far.

I'm not racing [yet], but I am monitoring my performance with an iBike and importing the data into CyclingPeaks.

My typical week is 1.9 hours a day x 5 days and 4 hours minimum x 2 days for a GT of 17.5 hours. Most of my morning rides are Zone 2. Afternoon rides are Zones 2-4 & 6 with this "sprint" thrown in daily:

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=772015

That sprint is sometimes enough to make my eyes roll into the back of my head, but even though it's not a true VO2Max effort of 5-8 minutes, it bumps up hard against VO2Max. I've been doing these for about a year, because they keep motorists on my bike commute route home happy (for the most part) because the speed limit is 45 MPH and there is no shoulder, so I've obligated myself to get out of the way and on to a slower street asap. But, the true reason is that I've seen that they've made me stronger and more tolerant to the metabolite build-up (lactic acid and Hydrogen ion) experienced in high force efforts over 30 seconds long like this.

Right or wrong, this is what I do for "base training".

Quantity doesn't equal quality. I train about 12-14 hours a week these days and still race at a high level. When I was younger and trying to compete in Belgium, it was only 12-18 hours per week, and that included two kermesses during the week. Those were the efforts and the rest of the riding was slow recovery. The rest of the recovery was eating, laying around and sleeping.

Ride long ebough and you'll know what your body can and cannot do, period. There is such a thing as riding too much though. After a certain point, you are doing more harm than good. Active recovery is fine, but you NEED to take days of the bike for passive recovery.

Ride long ebough and you'll know what your body can and cannot do, period.


Active recovery is fine, but you NEED to take days of the bike for passive recovery.

These two statements seem to conflict.

A day off of the bike isn't necessarily the best for everyone, especially if you do listen to your body and know what your body can do or cannot do.

I used to be a marathon runner putting in 100 mile weeks during base training. So, putting in 17.5 hours of cycling is not nearly my limit.

Right now I'm getting in around 15hrs a week. I'll be up to 17-20 this summer. As a Cat3, this may seem like I'm doing too much. But, as a couple of the races I'll be doing are 1) stage races or 2) long Pro/1/2/3 road races (Burlington Road Race, for example), I feel like I need to train my body to be able to cope with long, hard days on the bike, and come out and do it again the next day, or even that evening, in some cases.

I realize recovery is key, so some of my rides are a pretty easy 2hr spin at 180w (60% predicted FT), seeing the sights around town. I also get a lot of sleep. But, some of my rides are also 3hrs long with 40-60min at or above LT in the middle. 2x20min or 20min + a pyramid. I know some people think that combining workouts that hit different systems is a bad thing, but I think it's great race simulation. I'll have long climbs, short efforts, bridging, breaking, etc in my races, so why not prepare for them with race-like efforts?

Don't think of higher intensity as "riding less". Even if you arn't training just to race learn to take some enjoyment and satisfaction out of going fast as well as far.

I don't disagree with you V. But I'm ADDICTED to this cycling crap. Seriously addicted. I NEED those miles dude. What can I say? It's a problem.

Is there a rehab for guys like me? Can Botto and Dr. Pete come too?

Those rest days will get you in touch with your inner weenie. You can upgrade components, rebuild your barrel adjusters, triple lube your chain, kick back on the couch with your powertap data...

I don't disagree with you V. But I'm ADDICTED to this cycling crap. Seriously addicted. I NEED those miles dude. What can I say? It's a problem.

Is there a rehab for guys like me? Can Botto and Dr. Pete come too?
The road to recovery begins with the admission that you have a problem.

From there, I'm not sure. Maybe go out and ride your bike. ;)

The road to recovery begins with the admission that you have a problem.

From there, I'm not sure. Maybe go out and ride your bike. ;)

This is the BF version of the Mobius Curve. The Infinite Loop. The Unanswerable Question.

At least it doesn't make my legs hurt. Just my head.

I don't disagree with you V. But I'm ADDICTED to this cycling crap. Seriously addicted. I NEED those miles dude. What can I say? It's a problem.

Is there a rehab for guys like me? Can Botto and Dr. Pete come too?

I hear ya, have known a lot of riders with that affliction. They would have to be almost on thier death bed to miss a ride. Im just sayin redirect some of that addiction to speed.;)

I hear ya, have known a lot of riders with that affliction. They would have to be almost on thier death bed to miss a ride. Im just sayin redirect some of that addiction to speed.;)

I will take this under advisement V. I am starting to realize that the number of miles I ride may not be condusive to getting fast, which may be why none of the guys I know who race ride as much as I do.

But I LIKE those 110 mile solo Sat. rides. I should remember that I'm happy to be riding ANYWHERE after what I've been through. And maybe that's why those long rides appeal to me so much now. I spent 5 years on my sore ass thinking I'd never ride again.

Mission #1: lose weight, get fitter, get those intervals cookin'. So far, so good.

So don't cut the long solo's out entirely. Not a bad thing to do on a weekend when you don't have a race. Just sayin when the days agenda is "go fast" don't spend a lot of time/energy warming up, ect. Get loose, go hard, warm down enough to relax, then get off your bike. You really need to seperate these two types of workout. Do that and cut your total volume by 30% to 40% every 4th week and you can sustain effort over a very long season.

I don't disagree with you V. But I'm ADDICTED to this cycling crap. Seriously addicted. I NEED those miles dude. What can I say? It's a problem.

Is there a rehab for guys like me? Can Botto and Dr. Pete come too?

Word up

Interesting to read folks recommending less time on the bike. I guess it depends on what you and your body are used to.

Assuming slow paces for recovery, I'm guessing time on the bike looks like this:
Mon 2 hrs
Tue 2.5 hrs
Wed 1.75-2hrs
Thur 1.75-2hrs
Fri 2.5-3 hrs
Sat ~1 hr (including warmup/cooldowns)
Sun 1.75-2 hrs

Assuming longest times for everything, we're talking 14 hrs in a week of training. That's not so out of this world.

If the easy spins are actually easy spins, and you're feeling recovered, right on. I have a tendency to not "easy spin" so I get a full day off once a week and my day after threshold is a longer endurance ride at low level 1. (50-60 miles) I still have to be careful to not push it on these days if I'm feeling fresh because I'll pay for it in later workouts in the week. (I'll pay for today probably :P)

Time means next to nothing. Intensity means almost everything. I'd say it's 80% intensity and 20% time. Imagine you had these two guys:

1. Rides for 8 hours, entire ride in Zone 1 to low Zone 2
2. Rides for 1 hour, 45 min total in Zone 5, 15 min Zone 2-3

Sure, both could be tired afterwards, but I guarantee the guy who did the 1 hour interval ride will need more rest/recovery than the other guy, EVEN THOUGH he's ridden for only 1/8 as much time.

Time means next to nothing. Intensity means almost everything. I'd say it's 80% intensity and 20% time. Imagine you had these two guys:

1. Rides for 8 hours, entire ride in Zone 1 to low Zone 2
2. Rides for 1 hour, 45 min total in Zone 5, 15 min Zone 2-3

Sure, both could be tired afterwards, but I guarantee the guy who did the 1 hour interval ride will need more rest/recovery than the other guy, EVEN THOUGH he's ridden for only 1/8 as much time.

I disagree.

8hrs @ 63% of FTP = 325 TSS
45 mins @ 110% of FTP = 91 TSS + 10 TSS for warm up/cool down @ 63% FTP, total 101 TSS

You could also talk about it in terms of calories burned and body's requirement for recovery in terms of calories. 8 hrs @ 63% is going to burn me 4800ish calories. A VO2max hour will put me just over 1000-1100 calories on a really good day, with recovery between efforts. These both point to rider #1 experiencing more fatigue.

I don't disagree with you V. But I'm ADDICTED to this cycling crap. Seriously addicted. I NEED those miles dude. What can I say? It's a problem.

Is there a rehab for guys like me? Can Botto and Dr. Pete come too?

OK, that's it.

It's now my mission to ride with you patentcad, and most likely get dropped on any ascent.

That'll be easy enough to organize, sometime in late July August. Hopefully you'll be in the US, and not squashing grapes in Greeka land.

For good measure I just might have to make my way down to Maryland and catch DrPete during the 20 minutes a week that he's not sleeping or working this summer. :D

I disagree.

8hrs @ 63% of FTP = 325 TSS
45 mins @ 110% of FTP = 91 TSS + 10 TSS for warm up/cool down @ 63% FTP, total 101 TSS

You could also talk about it in terms of calories burned and body's requirement for recovery in terms of calories. 8 hrs @ 63% is going to burn me 4800ish calories. A VO2max hour will put me just over 1000-1100 calories on a really good day, with recovery between efforts. These both point to rider #1 experiencing more fatigue.

Just estimated calories/energy spent is not the best way to look at it. In one workout, you might stress your heart/lungs more but strain your muscles very little. In the other you might strain your muscles quite a bit, causing those microscopic tears that lead to new muscle built, requiring more recuperation. there are many factors involved in it and while you might have burned more calories during the long ride, much of that can easily be replenished simply by injesting that total amount of calories (some during the ride).

Another example: Lifting 300 lbs to absolute failure in the bench press may only take you 3 minutes total and won't burn much energy. However, you'll need a lot more recuperation than benching 50 pounds for 15 minutes while never approaching failure (I'm assuming bench press abilities for the example).

For good measure I just might have to make my way down to Maryland and catch DrPete during the 20 minutes a wek that he's not sleeping or working this summer. :D

Should this come to pass, we will need to purchase matching neon yellow jackets and helmet mirrors for the photo. :D

Should this come to pass, we will need to purchase matching neon yellow jackets and helmet mirrors for the photo. :D

be warned, i already have a neon yellow jacket.

back in the early 90's, they were the de rigeur garment to wear when you made your way to central, or prospect, park to race, in the wee hours of the morn.

i think our pic might look like this:

http://gamera.unas.cz/pix_celebs/arnold_schwarzenegger_05_danny_devito.jpg

Yeah, but who's who...?

Just estimated calories/energy spent is not the best way to look at it. In one workout, you might stress your heart/lungs more but strain your muscles very little. In the other you might strain your muscles quite a bit, causing those microscopic tears that lead to new muscle built, requiring more recuperation. there are many factors involved in it and while you might have burned more calories during the long ride, much of that can easily be replenished simply by injesting that total amount of calories (some during the ride).

Another example: Lifting 300 lbs to absolute failure in the bench press may only take you 3 minutes total and won't burn much energy. However, you'll need a lot more recuperation than benching 50 pounds for 15 minutes while never approaching failure (I'm assuming bench press abilities for the example).
Calories/energy spent is useful if you are looking at glycogen recovery as a limiter. It's interesting to note, actually, that some pro riders are utilizing calories burned on their power meters as an indicator of ride intensity or fitness. E.g., ride more for less calories, or complete a ride that mimics the caloric requirements of a targeted race.

Yeah, but who's who...?

hint: DrPete is apparently 6'2". I'm 5'9".

I hope you can figure the rest out, but then again, if you're a typical BF poster, probably not.

The funniest post I've ever read on BF is one where somebody thinks I'll drop them on a hill. My mirthometer is pegged.

The funniest post I've ever read on BF is one where somebody thinks I'll drop them on a hill. My mirthometer is pegged.

back in the day i was the sprinter who could hang on to the climbers on a hill and do OK.

i've spent far too long in the low countries, riding on pancake flat roads, in nasty winds. i'm a polderstomper, and get dropped at the mere sight of a hill.

you'll see, soon enough. ;)

back in the day i was the sprinter who could hang on to the climbers on a hill and do OK.

i've spent far too long in the low countries, riding on pancake flat roads, in nasty winds. i'm a polderstomper, and get dropped at the mere sight of a hill.

you'll see, soon enough. ;)

If you ever saw the hill I live on after a couple of years in Holland, you'd get an aneurism at the thought of riding up it every day no matter how toasted your little bike weenie legs may be. I could try to make you feel better about it by saying stuff like 'you get used to it'... but you don't. The biggest challenge I have on 'easy' days is slogging up in the 39 x 23 slow enough to keep the lactic acid out of my legs. I can do it, but it does take concentration and patience. About 3x annually I get inspired and to a 1 mile TT up its 8+% average grade slopes (15%+ in spots, 450 vertical feet of gain in one mile). Best time to date: 5:41. What's that, 11mph? That's as hard as I've ever gone up that distance here. And to get under 6 minutes I have to Big Ring the lower slopes of Mt. Doom (that's what I call my hill, you would too all things considered).

So, what about the racer who needs to spend a lengthly time in the saddle at least one day a week during base because they are fat? Sounds like long rides as near to FTP as possible for the distance would be in order.

Because recovery is going to be much greater taxed for the requirement of higher intensity at equal time in the saddle. After a hard Sunday ride of 3-4 hrs with our racing group, I need Monday off. Sometimes I go into my Tuesday FTP work still feeling Sunday. However, I can do 3, 4, or more 3-4 hr days back to back at L2 and burn more calories with significantly lower day-to-day fatigue. (for stress, this is same amount of time, differing intensities)

L2 isn't about building FTP. If you want to build FTP, you need to concentrate on systems that develop FTP. If you want to burn calories only, LSD is a better recipe for day after day routines.