How wide is a car door?

[slowandsteady]

Absolutely right.


I am beginning to think you and HH were at one time conjoined twins who just recently got separated and now have two distinct yet eerily similar BF profiles.

[Helmet Head]

HH: 4-5 feet.

Other than that, another opinion, another post. I personally think that humans are pretty good at calculating risks, that's kind of what we do. Experience informs those calculations. And couriers have far more experience than the lot of us here on this particular forum. So, I'll take them at their word. You seem to be ignoring the points made by 2manybikes.

[Helmet Head]

Of course you are ignoring the potential risks that may be presented by choosing another area to ride in. Perhaps you've never cycled in areas where the only other choices are in the midst of extremely dense motorized moving traffic that has little or no safe passing or easy lane changing opportunities; or the sidewalk. It is easy to say "take the lane" or "never ride in the door zone" when the "expert" ignores that the available alternatives may be worse.
"Extremely dense motorized moving traffic" is what makes riding in the door zone particularly dangerous, because if an opening door does pushing you into traffic, you're very likely to be get run over.


"Every vehicle operator has the right to operate his or her vehicle in a manner consistent with his or her own safety," Allen said. "And a bicyclist is a vehicle operator. A bicyclist shouldn't cringe to the right for the convenience of overtaking traffic, any more than a minivan mom should whenever a sports car appears in the minivan's rear view mirror.

http://www.bikexprt.com/massfacil/cambridge/doorzone/pressrls.htm


http://www.bikexprt.com/massfacil/cambridge/program/images/CentSqDeath.jpg

[I-Like-To-Bike]

"Extremely dense motorized moving traffic" is what makes riding in the door zone particularly dangerous, because if an opening door does pushing you into traffic, you're very likely to be get run over.
Really? Any credible data available that measured/analyzed these "liklihoods of danger" or provided any indication of the difference/comparison in overall cyclist risk? Anything at all besides one case in Boston that certain Vehicular Cyclists shamelessly exploited for their own agenda.

[clancy98]

my grandpa's 79 lincoln has doors about 6 or 7 feet long. If you see one of those, ou should switch to the other side of the road.

[Helmet Head]

Really? Any credible data available that measured/analyzed these "liklihoods of danger" or provided any indication of the difference/comparison in overall cyclist risk? Anything at all besides one case in Boston that certain Vehicular Cyclists shamelessly exploited for their own agenda. There are three likelihoods at issue here.

The first is the likelihood of being doored in the first place.
The second is: if a door opens right as you're passing it, and it pushes you into traffic, how likely are you to be killed or seriously injured from that.
The third is the likelihood of being killed or injured by choosing to ride outside of the door zone.
I don't know of any data for any of these. Do you?

What is the basis YOU use to decide whether to ride in or outside of the door zone?

[2manybikes]

Of course you are ignoring the potential risks that may be presented by choosing another area to ride in. Perhaps you've never cycled in areas where the only other choices are in the midst of extremely dense motorized moving traffic that has little or no safe passing or easy lane changing opportunities; or the sidewalk. It is easy to say "take the lane" or "never ride in the door zone" when the "expert" ignores that the available alternatives may be worse.


You're not making any sense. What are you talking about?
I'm not addresing the other choices in any way. If I'm ignoring something I'll tell you.
I did not say "never ride in the door zone".
Who claimed to be an expert? Who even addresed the other options?
Your constant negative assumtions sound like a very real sign of clinical depression.

I said...If you chose to take the unknown risk of getting hit by choosing to ride in the door zone that's one thing, but to say you can anticipate when all the doors will open and how close you are is just plain unrealistic and wrong, period.

I did not weigh the relative risks between riding in the lane or the door zone. " If you chose to take the unknown risk " means you decide, not me.
I can't weigh the relative risk between lane and door zone. I can't see where you are thinking about riding. Ride where it is appropriate at the right time. I can't choose for someone else in a location I can't see, I don't say I can.

Don't tell me you can ride next to all the cars and be sure that an opening door will be far enough away to let you stop or swerve around it. That's impossible. It can happen sure, but you can't predict it any more than I can. That's an unknown risk. If you don't ride in the door zone you can't get doored. You may get run over by a big semi at 60 mph, but you won't get doored. I can't asses the odds of either. I don't think anyone can, there are too many variables and not enough control in any of the statistics that I know about.

[Helmet Head]

I did not weigh the relative risks between riding in the lane or the door zone. " If you chose to take the unknown risk " means you decide, not me.
I can't weigh the relative risk between lane and door zone. I can't see where you are thinking about riding. Ride where it is appropriate at the right time. I can't choose for someone else in a location I can't see, I don't say I can.

I think we can all agree that we don't have the studies/data to show us what the numbers are for the relative risks.

So, given the lack of data, how do we decide "where (in or out of the door zone) it is appropriate at the right time"? What basis do YOU use?

[2manybikes]

I think we can all agree that we don't have the studies/data to show us what the numbers are for the relative risks.

So, given the lack of data, how do we decide "where (in or out of the door zone) it is appropriate at the right time"? What basis do YOU use?

For me, it's a changing dynamic all the time.
It depends on the road. I ride suburbs, urban, and rural, all the time. (my entire state is smaller than L.A. :D )

When coming up on a lone car parked away from any other cars on the road, one that I can clearly see is totally empty, I may ride in the door zone as I go by. When there is a steady row of parked cars to my right I can't see in them, or what is in between them. If the lane is narrow I move to the middle of the lane or even left of center for a while. It depends on the situation and the road. I have about an equal amount of both.
My "take a look" mirror and my daylight visible tail light make me more comfortable in the lane. Almost all the time I can see in front of me and what's coming from behind. I have ridden in the door zone when I could not see in the cars. I did this for quite a while. Nothing ever happened. I stopped doing it because I realized I can't prevent getting doored. Not because I "learned" wrongly from decades of riding that it never happens. That means nothing. In an emergency I may ride in the door zone for a short distance to prevent some other problem. But I might get hurt doing it.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

I don't know of any data for any of these. Do you?

What is the basis YOU use to decide whether to ride in or outside of the door zone?
No, I don't have data, but then I don't make claims about where the "danger" is more likely or tell other cyclists where they should never ride without considering what the other alternatives might be.

My Basis? Wherever I feel more comfortable. And for six years of riding daily on narrow streets laid out in the 1600 or 1700's with on street parking in North, South, and West Philadelphia as well as center City I often felt more comfortable in the so-called door zone. And I should point out I never saw a cyclist who rode on the same streets who rode any differently. And Bike lane paint was not anywhere in sight.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

You're not making any sense. What are you talking about? ...
Your constant negative assumtions sound like a very real sign of clinical depression.

Not clinical depression, Doc. Just an allergy to people (not necessarily 2manybikes) who talk carelessly about avoiding danger or risk with an absolute countermeasure (i.e. Never, ever ride in door zone) but ignore the possible increased risk the countermeasure may introduce.(i.e. risk incurred with all weather riding in midst of dense fast moving motorized city traffic in narrow lanes that has no safe means to easily get past a relative slow moving bicycle.)

[joejack951]

My Basis? Wherever I feel more comfortable. And for six years of riding daily on narrow streets laid out in the 1600 or 1700's with on street parking in North, South, and West Philadelphia as well as center City I often felt more comfortable in the so-called door zone. And I should point out I never saw a cyclist who rode on the same streets who rode any differently. And Bike lane paint was not anywhere in sight.

There's plenty of bike lane paint there now.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

There's plenty of bike lane paint there now.
Could be. My daily cycling in Philadelphia was done in the 70's. My guess is that the lateral position of choice for almost all street cyclists is the same as it was 30 years ago.

[sbhikes]

Yes, I find the whole danger danger door zone hysteria to be quite perplexing. It's no worse a danger than anything else out there. At least those parked cars aren't moving. And did you ever notice that bicycles are the only vehicle, with the exception of motorcycles, that actually CAN ride outside the door zone without changing lanes?

[2manybikes]

Not clinical depression, Doc. Just an allergy to people (not necessarily 2manybikes) who talk carelessly about avoiding danger or risk with an absolute countermeasure (i.e. Never, ever ride in door zone) but ignore the possible increased risk the countermeasure may introduce.(i.e. risk incurred with all weather riding in midst of dense fast moving motorized city traffic in narrow lanes that has no safe means to easily get past a relative slow moving bicycle.)

I was wrong, sorry about that. Now I understand. This reminds me of an old thread.
Riding in the lane vs not riding in the lane on your commute was easier to understand for me after seeing the photos you posted, and reading about it. I learned why the tall mast is important too. Maybe some don't picture it the way it really is. I have ridden on a similar road, but I can avoid it, so I really don't think about it much. When I was riding on it I would have loved to have that mast for the cars behind the first car behind me.

We live and ride in different conditions. Sometimes so different it's hard to imagine what it is like.
Then we apply our riding conditions to something that is very different. I know I have done it, we may all do it a little, maybe some more than others.