Vehicular Cycling (VC) - Cyclist tells me I'm not a car

This tale (from last night's ride home) is four blocks long. The intersection at the end of each block is controlled by a traffic signal. The first two blocks are westbound, the second ending at a "T" intersection. The next two blocks are left (southbound).

The intersection at the end of the first block is with a major arterial, and I rarely get the green here. But yesterday I noticed there were already 4 cars waiting, and one cyclist, and figured I might get lucky with the timing. As soon as I stood up to accelerate, of course the light turned green. I still made it and was just able to catch some draft from the last car as it accelerated away from me after I crossed the intersection into the 2nd block.

Because the first block is slightly downhill, I was going around 25 mph when I passed the cyclist -- a guy in his 30s or 40s on a commuter "hybrid" bike -- about half way to the next light. As I approached that light, the 4 cars were now waiting to turn left. This is the T intersection, so there is a left turn lane and a right turn lane, separated by a triangular shaped gore. Most cyclists seem to use the debris-filled gore as "stay out of the way space", but I took my normal position behind the last (4th) car. A bit later the cyclist I passed now passed me, on the right, on his way to stop in the gore at the stop line. As he passed, he said something, softly... You're not a car. I wasn't 100% sure, and couldn't quite believe it, but that's what it sounded like. The light turned green, and, as I expected, the driver of the first car hesitated, obviously made nervous by the cyclist next to him. Once the cyclist got going, then did the drivers, and, finally me.

The 3rd block is slightly uphill, and I didn't catch the commuter-cyclist until the red light at the end of that block. Normally I stay out of the bike lane to give right turners space here, but he was already stopped up ahead (in the crosswalk) blocking traffic, so I figured I would bend my rules, carefully, and filter forward in the bike lane up to him. When I stopped I clicked my brake lever so he would know I was there, a bit behind him and off to the side, but he didn't turn around. So in the nicest and most disarming tone I could muster, I said, "Excuse me, did you tell me I'm not a car?" At this point he finally turned his head to acknowledge me, and there was a scowl on his face, but it instantly disappeared, perhaps because he saw the smile on my face.. "Yeah, you're not a car. You're fast. But you're not a car". At this point the light turned green, and we both started off, as I passed him I said, "Yeah, I know I'm not a car... I'm a driver... Same rights...."

Now the 4th block is interesting because it's four lanes and the outside lane has a bike lane, but it's also wide enough for cars to share side-by-side... if the right-turners encroach into the bike lane, which they normally do, especially at rush hour. Turns out this is where I turn right, and this other guy needed to go straight. Anyway, there were many cars backed up waiting to turn right. I filtered forward, passing on the left side of the outside lane, then found a good spot to wait behind the 3rd car turning right. As usual, I turned around to nod and "say hi" to the driver I was stopping in front of. She nodded to me. Now, there were only a couple of cars going straight, so this other guy passes me and stops behind the second car. Note that he's out in the street in a line of cars, to the left of another line of cars. As the light turned green and we all started going, I yelled "you are a driver!"

Interesting story Helmet Head. The truth is, too many bicyclists only want to be vehicles when it suits them. I always do my best to obey all traffic laws and and red lights, rather than sneaking up the right side to the light, I go into traffic and take my turn waiting in line.

It's not only good for safety but for good relations.

i'm not sure i'd have been able to stay upright for laughing so hard if another cyclist told me that!

i'll bet he had NO CLUE what you were implying.

Why didn't you help the guy out with some appropos lane positioning safety advice?

like "sometimes its better to claim the lane"

One brilliant aspect of bicycles is they can act both like vehicles AND bicycles while slicing and dicing urban traffic.

on MY commute today, I passed two or three congested clogups today by a combination of riding between cones passing a line of stopped traffic; split stopped lanes of traffic as a light was turning green- watch the cross signals at the lights, people; used a bridge walkway across a six lane, 50 MPH, half mile long bridge; and avoiding a large dumptruck blocking traffic by jumping up onto the curb and sidewalk, passing city buses blocking in the process on the way to work.

and then took the long way home tonight in the dark- it was nice and not too rainy- and came up on some construction stopping traffic- I filtered forward to the construction signperson and taking the front of the line thru the construction zone.

These assorted scenarios from todays' commute where I distinctly DIDN'T ACT LIKE A "DRIVER"- I acted like a BICYCLIST.


but funny stuff, mr. head.

I really cant see what he did wrong except accuse you of not being a car, which IS apparant.

you and he must not share cycling philosophies.

So let me get this straight. HH acts like a cyclist. Another cyclist tells HH that he is not a car. HH concurs.

HH, I'm glad you didn't read me stories as a kid.

Joking aside. True, you're not a car. Also, you're not a driver, you're a rider. I know they rhyme and there are other similarities, but ultimately riders and drivers are different entities. You are also correct in stating that you have the same rights. However, in the context provided, this doesn't quite work. Stopping behind a line of traffic isn't a right. To have accurately reflected matters, you should really have tempered this by also stating that riders have the same responsibilities.

Some of the other differences between riders and drivers that you should take into consideration are our very different set of vulnerabilities, capabilities and opportunities.

Out of interest, what do you genuinely believe that the other cyclist took away from your exchange and how will that make them a better rider?

"A man convinced against his will.
Is of the same opinion still."

Maybe this was one of the bike forums posters always arguing with and about John Forester.

:) :)

Actually, I think you were doing everything exactly right.

In similar situations, I usually say, "section 183" to which most give a blank stare, but if they don't know the Motor Vehicle Act, who's being ignorant?

(sec. 183 says, a person operating a cycle on a highway has the same rights and duties as a driver of a vehicle)

I was riding in Ft Lauderdale a few months ago on A1A. I was stopped at a red light when an older homeless (I think) gentleman rides by on an old beach cruiser. As he passes me on his way through the red light he yells at me saying " WHAT THE F**K ARE STOPPING FOR?" I had a smile on my face for the rest of the day.

Turns out this is where I turn right, and this other guy needed to go straight. Anyway, there were many cars backed up waiting to turn right. I filtered forward, passing on the left side of the outside lane, then found a good spot to wait behind the 3rd car turning right.

I didn't understand this last part about turning right. If you were turning right, why were you to the left of some of the cars?

It sounds like you broke all kinds of traffic laws. It also sounds more like adaptive cycling than VC.

I think this is where I admit I did not read it that carefully. :o

Yesterday I was waiting to turn left on a similar street as HH in the same position as the hybrid cyclist. As we all waited for interminable traffic that was never going to let up so we could go, the lady in the car waiting to turn left spoke to me, "I don't think we're ever going to go."

I spoke to her, "I have a secret weapon." I dismounted from my bike and walked over to the crosswalk. I walked slowly across the crosswalk so that traffic was stopped long enough so the lady in the car could go too, and then I got on my bike and continued along my way.

Adaptive cycling can help more than just the cyclist. :)

When I was making a left turn at an intersection a few days ago, I had a cyclist in his mid teens yell at me " You're a bicycle not a car, use the crosswalk", all the while, this cyclist was riding in the street and going against traffic. I wasn't so much concerned about his remark at the time, but more to his possible attitude toward cycists in the road when he his able to drive.

HH, the other cyclist was in the wrong in at least one, maybe 2 ways. First was in regards to his safety. It is safer for a cyclist to take the lane & fall in behind a car, not pull along the right side as he did. The other possible way was he may have been violating the law. I do not know the laws in your area but in mine it is illegal for a cyclist to do that. We have to fall in behind the car in front in the lane. There is nothing in the ordinance stating we have to take the lane or anything saying that we can not. It does say as far to the right as practicable. That judgment is best left up to the cyclist. As a general rule of thumb most cyclists in my community take the lane when stopping, whether behind a car or first in line at a stop sign or light. Motorists are supposed to fall in behind us as well, no matter how far to the right the cyclist is. But if a cyclist is far over to the right motorists always pull along side the our left. That is why we take the lane.

It sounds like you broke all kinds of traffic laws. It also sounds more like adaptive cycling than VC.

How did he break traffic laws?

it's illegal to share lanes in iowa? wild.

I'm not a car?
I'm so confused. I always thought I was a 72 dodge challenger with an 8-track player.

it's illegal to share lanes in iowa? wild.

Depends what you mean by share lanes. If you're talking about a cyclist & motorist being in the same lane, with the motorist on the left of the cyclist, then yes. Because bicycles are legal vehicles of the roadway. It would be like 2 motorists trying to do this in the same lane. Not only that it is unsafe.

HH, the other cyclist was in the wrong in at least one, maybe 2 ways. First was in regards to his safety.

That judgment is best left up to the cyclist.

he may have been violating the law

I do not know the laws in your area

Neither cyclist did anything wrong or illegal. Granted, the guy on the "hybrid" may not make the best judgment calls by waiting by the curb at intersections. But he sounds like a big boy who can make his own decisions (like later when he passes to the left of the right turners).

The only points of "interest" are the "You're not a car" remark which was silly, and the assertion (to indicate that not taking the lane confuses drivers and slows down traffic) that:

the driver of the first car hesitated, obviously made nervous by the cyclist next to him.
The driver hesitated, is that how you knew he was obviously nervous? or from your position 4 cars back you could see him agitatedly biting his nails and saying "homina-homina-homina" :D Could he have just been allowing the cyclist to go first?

the guy was just jealous of your mad cyclist skilz and speeed, HH. ;)

So let me get this straight. HH acts like a cyclist. Another cyclist tells HH that he is not a car. HH concurs.

HH, I'm glad you didn't read me stories as a kid.

Joking aside. True, you're not a car. Also, you're not a driver, you're a rider. I know they rhyme and there are other similarities, but ultimately riders and drivers are different entities. You are also correct in stating that you have the same rights. However, in the context provided, this doesn't quite work. Stopping behind a line of traffic isn't a right. To have accurately reflected matters, you should really have tempered this by also stating that riders have the same responsibilities.

Some of the other differences between riders and drivers that you should take into consideration are our very different set of vulnerabilities, capabilities and opportunities.

Out of interest, what do you genuinely believe that the other cyclist took away from your exchange and how will that make them a better rider?
Some very astute observations. I appreciate that.

That I'm not a car is a fact. Whether I'm a driver is a semantic issue (revolving around the meaning of "driver"). I prefer to define driver broadly, and include cyclists who ride in accordance to the vehicular rules of the road in it. See the Cycle View videos thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=278113) for video clips of cyclists demonstrating what it means to be a driver while riding a bike, in the sense that I'm talking about.

The reason I think noting that we have the same rights is appropriate in this context is because I believe most cyclists, including this one, think we don't have the right to stop in the middle of the lane like that, unless there is no other practical alternative. They think the "keep as far right as practicable" obligation applies everywhere, even at intersections, even at intersections where they are turning left.

As far as the other difference you cite between "riders" and "drivers", the terms I've seen used in the field of bicycle transportation are "cyclists" and "motorists".

I have no idea what the cyclist took away from it. That another cyclist felt compelled to tell me I was not a car simply cracked me up, and that was the point of sharing this story.

The driver hesitated, is that how you knew he was obviously nervous? or from your position 4 cars back you could see him agitatedly biting his nails and saying "homina-homina-homina" :D Could he have just been allowing the cyclist to go first? All I can tell you is this: whether I'm driving my car or on my bike, if a cyclist filters ahead and stops anywhere near the front of the line of cars, I can practically guarantee a discernable and significantly long hesitation at the front when the light turns green.

That's not to say that there is never such a hesitation when there is no cyclist present, nor that there is a hestitation absolutely every time, but the correlation is very, very high. That's not scientific evidence, but I've observed it enough times and with enough consistency to have no doubts about it. Also useful to note is that the cyclist who moves up front and causes the hesitation he is causing is likely to be totally unaware of it. I know i was oblivious to it when I used to ride in that manner. Now that I know to look for it, however, it's very obvious.

Of course, I don't know if the cause is "nervousness". That's admittedly a guess. But it doesn't really matter why, i just know the presence of a cyclist up there almost always causes a delay.

That's admittedly a guess.
I'm just giving you a hard time, hence the smile ;)

Like you, I think a lot of this can be improved by a little non-verbal communication (eye contact and a hint where you'll be going when the light turns green). But surly commuters on mtn bikes (with headphones?) hate to communicate...;)

I'm not a car?
I'm so confused. I always thought I was a 72 dodge challenger with an 8-track player.
And are you playing Styx, Lover Boy, or Led Zepplin?

I donno, I was saluted by another driver today... maybe I am a car. :D I was north bound on El Camino Real just after lunch. I had met some old friends for lunch and was heading back to the office. As I approached 56, and a red light, I took my place well left in the right lane to make room for motorists turning onto the freeway. Guy in a very nice Rolls Royce crept up on my right and stopped at the limit line while checking cross traffic and saluted me.

Very cool.

Happens a couple times a year... maybe.

One driver to another.

i never notice any hesitation off the stops when I filter, usually its a mad dash by the vehicles to try and catch up with me, because I'm smoking them off the stops. sometimes by a quarter mile or more.

hesitation? naw. if a cyclists' got game, its the drivers just looking a lot slower.

and HH, I'll tell you as well - YOU'RE NOT A CAR! ;)

I donno, I was saluted by another driver today... maybe I am a car. :D I was north bound on El Camino Real just after lunch. I had met some old friends for lunch and was heading back to the office. As I approached 56, and a red light, I took my place well left in the right lane to make room for motorists turning onto the freeway. Guy in a very nice Rolls Royce crept up on my right and stopped at the limit line while checking cross traffic and saluted me.

Very cool.

Happens a couple times a year... maybe.

One driver to another.

At first I thought you meant he flipped you the bird. Cool, maybe he's a cyclist.

I need to revise my statement above- I notice a lot of hesitation by drivers at stops nowadays- even when there AREN'T ANY CYCLISTS AHEAD OF THEM!

The real lesson of this story is that unless another cyclist is putting you at risk, just let him or her be stupid. The other dude should have left you alone, giving you nothing to respond to. If he had just cycled the way he did (and kept quiet), you should have left him alone.

Life's too short to worry about other people's stupidity. There's just too much of it to worry about.

I have had drivers compliment me a few times for keeping up with them. This normally happens downtown where I pretty much always use the full lane.

Took the long way home last night.

I was riding traffic signal sprints last night in the dark in downtown Seattle; no one 'complimented' me as I kept up with fast moving traffic for blocks and blocks. Riding traffic signal sprints is an exhilarating and fun pastime.

I never, for an instance, thought I was a 'driver'; nor got confused with a car by anyone. I am a 'rider' of a 'bicycle.'

A bicycle rider, not a driver, despite my vehicular style of operation!

I'm not a car?
I'm so confused. I always thought I was a 72 dodge challenger with an 8-track player.

pukey lime green or cool blue? maybe orange?
340? 440 six-pack? hemi?
where you getting the tapes?

pukey lime green or cool blue? maybe orange?
340? 440 six-pack? hemi?
where you getting the tapes?

yellow with a green top.
440.
ebay!
:)

I've been called a 'driver' by motorists.

A guy in a truck moves up next to me (they are in RTOL at light, previously passed me on 40mph NOL) and says:
"Man, your brave driving in traffic"
Me: "We all are"
Guy: "Sshh, tell me about it ...ha" and completes his turn.

Here is the mp3 of the exchange (http://www.optionnz.com/users/afs/drivingintraffic2.mp3)

I've been called a 'driver' by motorists.

A guy in a truck moves up next to me (they are in RTOL at light, previously passed me on 40mph NOL) and says:
"Man, your brave driving in traffic"
Me: "We all are"
Guy: "Sshh, tell me about it ...ha" and completes his turn.

Here is the mp3 of the exchange (http://www.optionnz.com/users/afs/drivingintraffic2.mp3)


I like to point out although commuter cyclists make up 2% of traffic volume here in BC, all cyclists are involved in only 1% of traffic collisions. (commuter cyclists make up about 5% of all cyclists - I'd even argue that commuter cyclists have fewer collisions than the other 95% of people on bikes)

Even when cyclists are involved in colisions with motor vehicles, they have the same death rates as motor vehicle occupants (approx. 45,000 MV collisions resulting in approx. 400 deaths vs. approx. 900 cyclists colliding with MVs resulting in approx. 5 deaths)

Being a pedestrian is where the danger lies. About 1700 collisions with MVs each year resulting in about 65 deaths a year.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q119/hotbike/Type6Velomobile1990.jpg

I've had people tell me "That's not a bike, it's a car."
It's a velomobile, and it really turns heads.

I like to point out
I agree in principle, but in this case it was a friendly exchange from a smiling motorist, where I brought the idea of 'shared' concern over driving traffic vs. me lecturing with stats.

I would not have use the term 'brave' to describe driving in traffic - 'alert, vigilant, prepared' instead, but since the motorist did, I just suggested all us drivers are, which he got immedately.

Al

Yeah, I've had similar exchanges when it's clear we're on the same page and we laugh about the absurdities of the road.

I guess I was meaning different exchanges with others where we are sitting down and explaining ourselves (such as co-workers on a break) where we can use reason and logic and maybe help each other understand our positions with a little thought and consideration.

The road is a place for quick exchanges with not much opportunity for real debate or learning (unless one thinks about the exchange afterwards). I'd imagine professional driver would have a realistic idea about the real risks we all take getting around (something an average driver might not get)

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q119/hotbike/Type6Velomobile1990.jpg

I've had people tell me "That's not a bike, it's a car."
It's a velomobile, and it really turns heads.

Wouldn't that thing get blown over real easy in a stiff cross wind?

...Most cyclists seem to use the debris-filled gore as "stay out of the way space", but I took my normal position behind the last (4th) car. A bit later the cyclist I passed now passed me, on the right, on his way to stop in the gore at the stop line. As he passed, he said something, softly... You're not a car.
The sad thing is how so many people (especially non-cycling motorists) hold this view. To assert your proper position in the road takes not only overcoming your misconceptions, but then you have to deal with the social taboo.

I've had drivers tell me exactly that--"You're not a car!"--as if I didn't know... :D

Most cyclists seem to use the debris-filled gore as "stay out of the way space", but I took my normal position behind the last (4th) car.

Specialized makes a tire called the Armadillo so we can ride up through that area with the couple of pieces of crap that others call "debris filled gore", and get a good start at the light when it turns green.

Specialized makes a tire called the Armadillo so we can ride up through that area with the couple of pieces of crap that others call "debris filled gore", and get a good start at the light when it turns green.
I'd rather faster traffic get ahead of me, first.

Specialized makes a tire called the Armadillo so we can ride up through that area with the couple of pieces of crap that others call "debris filled gore", and get a good start at the light when it turns green. I'll catch you 3 out of 4 times within a block, even if you're a bit faster than me (every time if I'm faster). You just can't go as fast when riding in the margin as you can out in the vehicular traffic lane, especially if you're surfing some draft...

you're not catching ME at the lights, head, because I'm not only filtering, I'm taking the lane immediately afterwards as well. you'll be a bit behind for a good while, especially on two lane roads while stuck in the pack.

You're NOT a car, like the cyclist you harassed observed.

Catching a draft, isn't that dangerous ;) if a car or truck suddenly deacellerates? Why would you put yourself in such an unsafe lane position? sounds distinctly unvehicular to be following other traffic so closely.... and what about your conspicuity to oncoming traffic perhaps intent on close cutting to the rear of a vehicle you're 'drafting'? ;)

Wouldn't that thing get blown over real easy in a stiff cross wind?

I never had a problem with cross winds. In fact , one time I rode this vehicle in Gale Force (over 55 MPH) winds to test it.
I had one old man in a car pull up along side of me, and the "gull-wing door" on the bike got caught up in some kind of vortex, and flapped up and down against the roof of his car *repeatedly*, but the man would not move his car to the left. He got some scratches in the paint of his car.
I had to hold onto the handlebars, as I recall, I could not let go of them to latch the door shut.
But I maintained control.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q119/hotbike/Type6Velomobile1990.jpg
Some cyclists say they can not control a bike with disk wheels in a stiff wind.
I say it's a learned skill. It's a matter of leaning into the wind, just like keeling a sailboat.
I have a pilot's liscence, so I should say that it's like flying a plane. Flying a plane is a lot like riding a bicycle, and the Wright Brothers knew this. A moment of inattentiveness can send you crashing into the ground. A vehicle as pictured above has it's own "laminar effect". One has to learn to trust the feeling of the body (fuselage) cutting it's way through the air, and rely on it more than you rely on the the wheels. It may seem odd, but there are times when the vehicle will keep going strait when I turn the wheel. The tail fin, in fact the whole body, have their own degree of aerodynamic stability.

If I do go down, I'm protected by Kevlar aramid fiber. It's like having a helmet for my whole body.

That contraption is so ugly, it's cool!;)

I never had a problem with cross winds. In fact , one time I rode this vehicle in Gale Force (over 55 MPH) winds to test it.
I had one old man in a car pull up along side of me, and the "gull-wing door" on the bike got caught up in some kind of vortex, and flapped up and down against the roof of his car *repeatedly*, but the man would not move his car to the left. He got some scratches in the paint of his car.
I had to hold onto the handlebars, as I recall, I could not let go of them to latch the door shut.
But I maintained control.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q119/hotbike/Type6Velomobile1990.jpg
Some cyclists say they can not control a bike with disk wheels in a stiff wind.
I say it's a learned skill. It's a matter of leaning into the wind, just like keeling a sailboat.
I have a pilot's liscence, so I should say that it's like flying a plane. Flying a plane is a lot like riding a bicycle, and the Wright Brothers knew this. A moment of inattentiveness can send you crashing into the ground. A vehicle as pictured above has it's own "laminar effect". One has to learn to trust the feeling of the body (fuselage) cutting it's way through the air, and rely on it more than you rely on the the wheels. It may seem odd, but there are times when the vehicle will keep going strait when I turn the wheel. The tail fin, in fact the whole body, have their own degree of aerodynamic stability.

If I do go down, I'm protected by Kevlar aramid fiber. It's like having a helmet for my whole body.

...

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q119/hotbike/Type6Velomobile1990.jpg
.

No offense, HB, but that thing is butt-ugly. Looks like it was made out of blue tarp and plastic wrap. Looks like something some homeless dude would ride during the day and sleep in at night.

No offense, HB, but that thing is butt-ugly. Looks like it was made out of blue tarp and plastic wrap. Looks like something some homeless dude would ride during the day and sleep in at night.
It's still purtier than a car!

you're not catching ME at the lights, head, because I'm not only filtering, I'm taking the lane immediately afterwards as well. you'll be a bit behind for a good while, especially on two lane roads while stuck in the pack.

You're NOT a car, like the cyclist you harassed observed.

Catching a draft, isn't that dangerous ;) if a car or truck suddenly deacellerates? Why would you put yourself in such an unsafe lane position? sounds distinctly unvehicular to be following other traffic so closely.... and what about your conspicuity to oncoming traffic perhaps intent on close cutting to the rear of a vehicle you're 'drafting'? ;) I never get too close and always draft near the side so I can swerve aside if necessary. I've had cars in front of suddenly hit the brakes and have never come close to having a problem evading a crash. Not that I'm saying this is a VC best practice! It's certainly not an example of being defensive. This post probably belongs in the confessions thread!