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Below are links to three bicycling instructional video clips on the Cyclist View (http://www.cyclistview.com/) site, preceded by an introduction from one of the video creators. Which of these videos do you feel is the best?
Even if you learn and "know" in the intellectual sense that you as a cyclist have the right to control lanes for your own safety, it takes time before you "feel" comfortable doing this. We have found that video showing the on-bike cyclist perspective helps most people overcome their aversion to controlling lanes and accelerates the process of getting them to act like drivers and feel comfortable doing it.
Lane Position (http://www.cyclistview.com/laneposition.htm)
Traffic Skills (http://www.cyclistview.com/trafficskills.htm)
Lane Control (http://www.cyclistview.com/lanecontrol.htm)
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all showed assertive vc as appropriate, safest means !
hold your lane and go with the flow...
east coast car/bike inclusion appear signifcantly different than west coast rules!
t
Couple of comments... first I believe the cyclist view stuff is made on the west coast, not on the east coast... all three of their sponsors are west coast... especially CABO (California Association of Bicycling Organizations).
So this is not a reflection of "east coast car/bike inclusion."
Second, using their "chase view mode" means two cyclists on the road, and we all know that when greater numbers of cyclists ride together, the more visible you are.
http://www.dualchase.com/images/about/dualchaseview.gif
Funny how their cycling techniques work so well then.
Couple of comments... first I believe the cyclist view stuff is made on the west coast, not on the east coast... all three of their sponsors are west coast... especially CABO (California Association of Bicycling Organizations).
So this is not a reflection of "east coast car/bike inclusion."
Second, using their "chase view mode" means two cyclists on the road, and we all know that when greater numbers of cyclists ride together, the more visible you are.
http://www.dualchase.com/images/about/dualchaseview.gif
Funny how their cycling techniques work so well then.
Do you have any reason to believe these techniques don't work as well when riding solo?
The 3rd clip, on lane control, was filmed solo (which is why you don't ever see a cyclist in the picture, or have both front and rear views simultaneously). Note that this is a 45 mph 6-lane arterial.
Also, in the first slide, on Lane Position, they demonstrate the difference in treatment based on lane position where the two cyclists is a constant factor. This is repeated dozens of times and shown in separate clips on their website.
;)
The 3rd clip, on lane control, was filmed solo (which is why you don't ever see a cyclist in the picture, or have both front and rear views simultaneously). .
I don't think its safe to try and turn 180 degrees on your bike and film traffic going 45 mph. ;)
In all seriousness, thanks for the videos [edit: I am not being sarcastic] --very informative
...we all know that when greater numbers of cyclists ride together, the more visible you are.Depends. In those instances where someone is overtaking directly from behind the cyclists, the cyclist to the rear would pretty much prevent them from seeing the cyclist in front.
;)
I don't think its safe to try and turn 180 degrees on your bike and film traffic going 45 mph. ;)
No, but it's pretty safe to switch a toggle on the handlebars to cause the camera to start using the rear-view lens rather than the front-view lens, and vice-versa.
Both lenses are attached to the helmet, one facing forward, the other back.
When they ride one behind the other (slightly staggered), the one behind selects his lens that faces forward, and the one in front selects his rearview lens.
But when they film solo, as shown in the 3rd clip, they'll switch between front and rear views with the flip of the toggle switch.
Pretty cool, eh?
Depends. In those instances where someone is overtaking directly from behind the cyclists, the cyclist to the rear would pretty much prevent them from seeing the cyclist in front.
Not so in this case since they ride staggered so that the center of each view is not blocked by the cyclist.
But it's moot since they don't report the treatment to be any different when riding solo, as shown in the 3rd clip.
Pretty cool, eh?
actually, yeah
So does this remind anyone of how they ride on their commute? I have a 1.5 mile stretch along a 45 mph (posted) 6 lane arterial with no bike lanes, including a freeway overpass, on my commute, and the third clip depicts exactly how I ride it. Anyone else?
Doesn't look like my ride very much at all. but very informative and good demonstration.
love the idea of taking the lane like that, and hearing NO horns honking, no cussing, etc.
there's already a variety of rider stories on this forum site about being pulled over / harassed by police for riding in this manner. so, if this is going to be promoted, it will need official sanction and endorsement. when this happens, and begins to spread, i will get behind it, as i see the obvious benefits.
love the idea of taking the lane like that, and hearing NO horns honking, no cussing, etc.
there's already a variety of rider stories on this forum site about being pulled over / harassed by police for riding in this manner. so, if this is going to be promoted, it will need official sanction and endorsement. when this happens, and begins to spread, i will get behind it, as i see the obvious benefits.
These guys are doing a lot of work in that direction. For example, their work was used to convince a city council to not ban bicyclists on a stretch of Pacific Coast Highway (see: http://www.cabobike.org). They are also presenting to various government groups at local and state levels. What you see on their website is the tip of the iceberg.
For what it's worth, both of these guys have been inspired by the ideas and work of John Forester.
Also, in California, if a lane is too narrow to be safely shared side by side by a car and bicycle, both fully within the lane, then there is no obligation for the cyclist to keep "as far right as practicable". What they are doing is perfectly legal.
It's interesting to see how folks ride on multi lane roads. When I head to work, I'm entirely on one lane (each direction) roads, haven't had the chance to experience the alternative yet:)
It's interesting to see how folks ride on multi lane roads. When I head to work, I'm entirely on one lane (each direction) roads, haven't had the chance to experience the alternative yet:)BTW, regardless of the number of marked lanes, I routinely travel in the primary position (that's the middle) in whichever one of my vehicles (pedal or motor) that I happen to be driving. Normally, I only travel in the secondary position (near the edge) when:
I feel comfortable doing so, and
it significantly benefits another traveler
BTW, regardless of the number of marked lanes, I routinely travel in the primary position (that's the middle) in whichever one of my vehicles (pedal or motor) that I happen to be driving. Normally, I only travel in the secondary position (near the edge) when:
I feel comfortable doing so, and
it significantly benefits another traveler :beer:
Bruce, do you agree that unless the riding depicted in these clips appears to be "normal" to someone - reminiscent of the way that he himself rides - that it will be very difficult for him to understand the issues that VC advocates have with segregated cycle facilities?
I like the lane position video the best because it attempts to show the wrong way and the right way to ride, the other videos could really use a similar treatment. Example: show a cyclist that is swerving in and out of traffic from the parking lane and then show a cyclist riding a straight line. I know too many cyclist that seem to think “I am riding a straight lane in between the parked cars and now I am riding a straight line next to the parked cars” and don’t get that is swerving.
I like the lane position video the best because it attempts to show the wrong way and the right way to ride, the other videos could really use a similar treatment. Example: show a cyclist that is swerving in and out of traffic from the parking lane and then show a cyclist riding a straight line. I know too many cyclist that seem to think “I am riding a straight lane in between the parked cars and now I am riding a straight line next to the parked cars” and don’t get that is swerving.
Actually, they have a clip that shows that. On one of their rides they happened to catch on video a guy swerving in and out of parked cars up ahead of them.
I like the lane position video the best because it attempts to show the wrong way and the right way to ride, the other videos could really use a similar treatment.Thanks very much for your feedback.
Actually, they have a clip that shows that. On one of their rides they happened to catch on video a guy swerving in and out of parked cars up ahead of them.Do you know if they have made that clip publicly available on the web?
All great clips, and extremely useful in demonstrating how VC principles work in application. These guys are doing fine work.
I didn't quite "get" the "Traffic Skills" clip -- that is, the specific individual skills weren't immediately apparent to me. It's possible that I'm just slow on the uptake, as I am on the pedals.
... do you agree that unless the riding depicted in these clips ... reminiscent of the way that he himself rides ... it will be very difficult for him to understand the issues that VC advocates have with segregated cycle facilities?Yes, I think it will be very difficult (although not impossible). I believe that Dan alluded to that challenge when he wrote the introduction to the clips:
Even if you learn and "know" in the intellectual sense that you as a cyclist have the right to control lanes for your own safety, it takes time before you "feel" comfortable doing this.
I didn't quite "get" the "Traffic Skills" clip -- that is, the specific individual skills weren't immediately apparent to me. I found that just watching that video by itself didn't make the skills apparent to me, but the synergistic combination of the:
video
slide (with a titled list naming each skill on the left side)
audio commentary (which briefly explains how the video demos all five skills)
forms what is, IMHO, the most effective material for introducing all of those skills to students that's been created so far.
I found that just watching that video by itself didn't make the skills apparent to me, but the synergistic combination of the:
video
slide (with a titled list naming each skill on the left side)
audio commentary (which briefly explains how the video demos all five skills)
forms what is, IMHO, the most effective material for introducing all of those skills to students that's been created so far.
Thanks, Bruce. I needed the audio, which I had turned off when I first saw the clip. All tied together nicely, now.
I need to go search their site to find out when I can buy the full versions of these. You're right. This is the most effective material to date.
I need to go search their site to find out when I can buy the full versions of these.The availability of those slides (with that synergist combination) gives me hope that I'll eventually be able to use such materials when I teach integrated (in traffic as traffic) cycling. I imagine that most of the other certified instructors will want to get them too!
I've been delaying teaching my first class due to the lack of a curriculum and course material that I believe would be sufficiently effective for me to want to teach it. What I saw in Road 1, Road 2 and even the LCI seminar didn't even come close to what I learned from studying Effective Cycling, Cyclecraft, and Hurst's (Art of Urban Cycling) stuff on responsibility and vigilance. The clips shown in this OP are just some of the highlights of what Dan and Brian have put together so far. I think when it all comes together it will be awesome, and I intend to use it in the first course that I teach.
I've been delaying teaching my first class due to the lack of a curriculum and course material that I believe would be sufficiently effective for me to want to teach it. What I saw in Road 1, Road 2 and even the LCI seminar didn't even come close to what I learned from studying Effective Cycling, Cyclecraft, and Hurst's (Art of Urban Cycling) stuff on responsibility and vigilance. The clips shown in this OP are just some of the highlights of what Dan and Brian have put together so far. I think when it all comes together it will be awesome, and I intend to use it in the first course that I teach.
Who are Dan and Brian? Are they participants in this thread, or the creators of the Video, or what?
Who are Dan and Brian? IIRC, they're the producers of the material.
IIRC, they're the producers of the material.
Thank you. Such a personal reference can be confusing to those of us on first name basis with them.
Thank you. Such a personal reference can be confusing to those of us on first name basis with them.
Sorry... I didn't think it mattered.
Anyway, which clip is your favorite?
From the tragedy in Solana Beach thread:
...
Just imagine the cyclist on the video approached by two cars from behind, one tailgating another. First car comes close to the cyclists and changes the lane without slowing down. Tailgating car driver is left with very little time to react. I've seen many close calls like that driving. Yes, it's easy to imagine, but I never see it actually happen, and I've never heard of a crash actually caused by this.
First, it requires the driver in front of the tailgater to drive all the way up to the cyclist, without slowing, and then suddenly cutting left to pass. I think drivers are much more likely to do that with a slow car or truck in front of them than a slow motorcyclist or bicyclist. When you start riding regularly in the manner depicted in these clips -- in their path -- you quickly learn how much better drivers start treating you (what is shown in the videos is very typical). Close passes are all but eliminated.
Second, it requires the tailgating driver to not see the cyclist in front of the car in front of him. Most cyclists are taller than most cars. Of course, if it's a guy in a Miata tailgating a FedEx truck, his sight lines to the cyclist will of course be obstructed. But, again, when a drivers sight lines are so obstructed, he's much less likely to be tailgaiting. Also, the driver of a vehicle large enough to obstruct sight lines like that is less likely to drive in such a reckless manner.
Perhaps there are other reasons too. The fact remains that on roads with narrow outside lanes such that lane sharing is not practical, and so all motorists are required to change lanes to pass cyclists, overtaking collisions are practically unheard of. Of all the cyclist deaths reported on this forum in the last two years, I can only remember one that might fit in that category.
to me...... Lane position and lane control are the best of the three. together from different perspectives they give a good sense of the advantages of taking the lane in those types of roads. Ideally, you'd want to demonstrate riding on WOLs and Bike lanes as well, changing lanes, and the various way of making left turns.... but then you didn't ask that so never mind! the traffic skills one wasn't very demonstrative for me.
All the clips look pretty good. And the last begins with the guy riding in...A BIKE LANE! :eek: :eek: :eek:
Okay, seriously, I liked 'em all. Very informative for people who wanna ride in the street instead of the sidewalk, but when there are no bike lanes or MUP's available for them to run through. I tend to avoid narrow lane fast roads if I can, but I've mostly not been harassed while cycling through Central (where I live) or North Orange County. Mostly, anyway. I don't have enough riding experience in Dan and Brian's area (South Orange County) to tell either way.
I don't see why you need a class to teach people to cycle like this. I use all of the same techniques used in the videos, and it was mostly self-taught with directions from internet websites. I ride in a straight line, I do not veer in between parked cars, I take the middle of the lane if it's too narrow to share or if I am too close to the door zone...real basic stuff.
I like the first one most, because it shows what to do, and what not to do. The second one just shows what to do, and the third one...well, just a showcase of riding in the street with heavy traffic.
Sorry... I didn't think it mattered.
Anyway, which clip is your favorite?
I viewed them but don't have any favorite. The video was very jerky on my older machine. Could be related to the fact that I've never gotten Quick Time Videoto work right.
I see more high speed traffic every day on my own bike commute in my own mirror. The difference being far more trucks, and large pickups all going faster than 45 mph. In the morning all I see in my mirror are headlights approaching from behind me because it is pitch black at 5-6 am when I commute to work on a 55mph highway.
I didn't see what was so wrong about the guy riding in a way that allowed cars to pass him, and I didn't see what was so great about the other guy who made that white car get stuck behind him while all the other drivers passed the white car. I'm sure the guy in the white car was thinking, man if I see another cyclist again I'm going to make sure I don't get stuck behind him no matter what.
I didn't see what was so wrong about the guy riding in a way that allowed cars to pass him, and I didn't see what was so great about the other guy who made that white car get stuck behind him while all the other drivers passed the white car. I'm sure the guy in the white car was thinking, man if I see another cyclist again I'm going to make sure I don't get stuck behind him no matter what.
Which clip are you talking about?
I've only just been alerted to this thread so I hope I'm not duplicating previous comments, but I've used a helmet cam for educational purposes since first seeing "Cyclist's Eye View" (CEV) and meeting Chris Quint, featured in the videotape, at a LAB Educators Summit in Portland, OR, several years ago. I think this video is a very helpful tool and I use it in conjunction with selected excerpts from Forester's "Effective Cycling" video in teaching LAB-based Road I classes.
I found that when using the helmet cam the subject is rather small when leaving a gap of only 1-2 bike lengths between the subject and helmet cam operator. In a recent e-mail reply from Brian DeSousa, who I believed along with Dan Guttierez did the helmet cam shooting of CEV, he wrote:
"We've found that 1/2 - 1 bike lengths is a good rule of thumb" for taping, adding that the taping is done while riding at about 15 mph.
Given the closeness of the two bikes I would guess that a following motorist would only see one bike ahead. It also requires a lot of confidence on the part of the two cyclists that they can coordinate well.
I've only just been alerted to this thread ...Martin, thanks very much for that information. Please cast your vote in the poll that's at the beginning of this thread if you haven't already.
I didn't see what was so wrong about the guy riding in a way that allowed cars to pass him [in the Lane Position video],
Are you okay with high speed traffic leaving you maybe 2 feet on either side? Are you okay with motorists straddling the lane line of an occupied lane while passing you? You have much more faith in motorists than I do if you say yes to either question IMO.
and I didn't see what was so great about the other guy who made that white car get stuck behind him while all the other drivers passed the white car [in the Traffic Skills video]. I'm sure the guy in the white car was thinking, man if I see another cyclist again I'm going to make sure I don't get stuck behind him no matter what.
What would that white car have had to do if another motorist had to park or make a right turn across a busy crosswalk? Would that motorist in the white car then pass all other motorists at will now because of that horrific experience? If not, why would this cyclist experience be so special? Do you think it's possible now that because this motorist waited patiently behind a cyclist taking the full lane and then changed lanes to pass that they might do the same for a cyclist hugging the edge of the road instead of trying to squeeze by?
Interesting, but only the second one, the traffic skills video, showed roads which are typical to the pacific NW. Here, it would be more relevent to show how traffic behaves around cyclists on somewhat narrow, one lane each direction, arterials and side streets, rather than the 45 mph, 6 lane superarterial shown in the first and third videos. In my experience, drivers tend to get more confused when they don't have space to clearly go around the cyclist without crossing the center median.
Even if they showed one where there were only two lanes in each direction, no shoulder, and denser traffic; that'd be more relevent to the pac NW.
I liked the lane position video best, it reminds me of my commute and the way I see cars reacting to cyclists who hug the curb. I guess if folks want to ride that way and be treated as pylons thats fine for them, but I'll take someone honking any day over the too close pass. The only time someone gets "trapped" behind me on my commute is when there's too much traffic. I love the folks that are in such a huge hurry to get around me so they can sit behind the car that's in front of me.
I think Diane's comments reflect a large portion of the cycling community. I see racers on their weekend club rides, riders who can hammer me into the ground, yet they still don't know how to ride in traffic. But no amount of education or "Road One Courses" are going to change their opinions about motorist superiority. Just like how Diane cannot see the benefit of "taking the lane" many of the folks that I ride with will still hug the curb, but then do jerk things like run red lights and filter up when they are in a large group.
I liked the lane position video best, it reminds me of my commute and the way I see cars reacting to cyclists who hug the curb. I guess if folks want to ride that way and be treated as pylons thats fine for them, but I'll take someone honking any day over the too close pass. The only time someone gets "trapped" behind me on my commute is when there's too much traffic. I love the folks that are in such a huge hurry to get around me so they can sit behind the car that's in front of me.
I think Diane's comments reflect a large portion of the cycling community. I see racers on their weekend club rides, riders who can hammer me into the ground, yet they still don't know how to ride in traffic. But no amount of education or "Road One Courses" are going to change their opinions about motorist superiority. Just like how Diane cannot see the benefit of "taking the lane" many of the folks that I ride with will still hug the curb, but then do jerk things like run red lights and filter up when they are in a large group.
Well said, Treespeed. Glad you found some time to share your wisdom.
Man, that whole no amount of education or "Road One Courses" are going to change their opinions about motorist superiority is sure a tough nut to crack. In fact, much of what I do here is try to figure out how to crack that nut. To no avail, so far.
Interesting, but only the second one, the traffic skills video, showed roads which are typical to the pacific NW. Here, it would be more relevent to show how traffic behaves around cyclists on somewhat narrow, one lane each direction, arterials and side streets, rather than the 45 mph, 6 lane superarterial shown in the first and third videos. In my experience, drivers tend to get more confused when they don't have space to clearly go around the cyclist without crossing the center median.
Even if they showed one where there were only two lanes in each direction, no shoulder, and denser traffic; that'd be more relevent to the pac NW.
One of my dreams is to take a video/bike setup on a road tour, and visit all you folks, and make clips like this in all the different places, and turn it into a documentary demonstrating how to ride vc anywhere in the U.S. in a variety of notoriously tough situations.
One of my dreams is to take a video/bike setup on a road tour, and visit all you folks, and make clips like this in all the different places, and turn it into a documentary demonstrating how to ride vc anywhere in the U.S. in a variety of notoriously tough situations.
Come to the metro detroit area and i'll even put you up with a place to stay and a bite to eat, just be sure to brind your health insurance card... you'll need it. ;)
"I don't see why you need a class to teach people to cycle like this."
From the booklet on their website:
"Fearful instruction - "always keep away from traffic" - is passed down to children by parents who don't know much about bicycling - the blind leading the blind. From about 1930 to 1965, few adults rode bicycles in North America, and that was long enough for incorrect ideas about bicycling to become deeply rooted.
Certainly, children shouldn't be allowed to ride bicycles in heavy traffic, any more than they should be allowed to drive cars. But that doesn't mean that adult bicyclists should have to ride like children."
I live dangerously- I ride my bike in the traffic of the greater Dallas area, known for wanna be cowboys and their pickup trucks. And I do it with skin tight shorts on!:D
I ride day or night, in all weather (except ice), using these methods of "taking the lane". (1700 mi so far this year!) In both of my near misses, and my one collision, I was following the rules and the cars were not. I am convinced that the skills demonstrated in these clips have made my riding safer than if I cowered in the gutter.
I really liked the clip showing the different ways traffic reacted to the cyclists. It mirrors my experience exactly. I will be sure to show it to my non-cycling friends. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
Tailwinds!
Chipseal, I love your name. I had no idea what chipseal was until I moved here.
ChipSeal: The reason I posed that comment was because of another thread (poll) started by Helmet Head asking if using vehicular cycling techniques helped us in any way with negotiating traffic...or something along those lines. One of the requirements was that we had to have taken a class showing us how to ride in the streets with traffic, which I found especially silly, considering that I cycle vehicularly already without having to take such a class. I just read the ideas of lane positioning, riding with traffic, etc., and simply put those ideas into practice on the suburban streets of Orange County. I'm still standing almost two years later :p
ChipSeal: The reason I posed that comment was because of another thread (poll) started by Helmet Head asking if using vehicular cycling techniques helped us in any way with negotiating traffic...or something along those lines. One of the requirements was that we had to have taken a class showing us how to ride in the streets with traffic, which I found especially silly, considering that I cycle vehicularly already without having to take such a class. I just read the ideas of lane positioning, riding with traffic, etc., and simply put those ideas into practice on the suburban streets of Orange County. I'm still standing almost two years later :p
I learned the techniques from studying a book, and applying what I learned in my own riding. Once I did that, frankly, I did not get much from the classes. However, not all people learn the same. Some learn best with instructors.
The reason I posed that comment was because of another thread (poll) started by Helmet Head asking if using vehicular cycling techniques helped us in any way with negotiating traffic...or something along those lines. One of the requirements was that we had to have taken a class showing us how to ride in the streets with traffic, which I found especially silly...
IIRC, the poll in question actually referred to learning VC principles and skills by self-study, as well as by taking classes. I think HH (and JF, and every other VC proponent I know) would agree that there is more than one way to learn the discipline.
For many folks, classes can be very useful, especially because the first pedal strokes away from the gutter can be scary and it may help to have support and encouragement.
OTOH, some of us were just born to ride in the middle of the road. :)
Hey I'd like to see the same videos done with slow riders... maybe one pulling a trailer, or better yet, loaded down with groceries. Make the other rider a slow grandma/grandpa type. And of course I'd like to see a narrow crowded street and the cyclist working to hold the lane along side a line of parked cars with a sidewalk along the side... so motorists can see what THEY perceive is "plenty of room."
Oh and do it at rush hour... Let's be realistic here.
I mean certainly these are good videos... but they depict strong cyclists, not typical college commuters with a load of books on their backs. Nor do these videos depict the daily riders of the type I saw in European cities that were just out grocery shopping and the like.
Hey I'd like to see the same videos done with slow riders... maybe one pulling a trailer, or better yet, loaded down with groceries. Make the other rider a slow grandma/grandpa type. And of course I'd like to see a narrow crowded street and the cyclist working to hold the lane along side a line of parked cars with a sidewalk along the side... so motorists can see what THEY perceive is "plenty of room."
Oh and do it at rush hour... Let's be realistic here.
I mean certainly these are good videos... but they depict strong cyclists, not typical college commuters with a load of books on their backs. Nor do these videos depict the daily riders of the type I saw in European cities that were just out grocery shopping and the like.
My daugher weighs 50 lbs now, and her trailercycle is another 20 or so. I haul her around with my 25 lbs cyclocross bike in the same manner as depicted in the videos. Not during weekday rush hour - because I typically ride with her on the weekends. But it can get pretty messy in the PB, MB and Sports Arena areas on the weekends, and that's when and where I ride with her, including on the high speed arterials and bridges.
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