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I was reading another forum about what people eat on long rides, and it got me thinking...
People where eating things that where high in protein (i.e. peanuts, sunflowers, PB sandwitches, ect.).
My question is then, when on a long ride, does one need to consume protein, carbs and/or simple sugars (i.e. fruit) more then the other?
And also I would wondering why do so many people use products like Gu/Powerbars? Is it a convenience issue?
(If this had been answer previously on the forum, I am sorry for reasking, but I was unable to find it.)
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For me - all i want are those lucious carbs on a long ride....with a little protein....carbs convert to fuel quicker than protein although you still need your protein. The concentration of carbs/protein in gels and sport bars/drinks are higher than most regular foods and are easier to devour on a ride than a pb sandwich. I use accelerade (highest carb content I could find) in one water bottle and some regular h20 in the other.:)
First the foods you mentioned are higher in fats than anything else with moderate amounts of protein and carbs(except the sandwich which would also be high in carbs counting the bread).But really the answer depends on your speed and distance as to which fuels to use.You really don't want to use protein as a fuel at all either fat or carbs.Generally the faster you go and the shorter the distance the more you want to rely on carbs and the more refined they need to be.For a slower pace and longer distances where fat is the primary fuel you can add some fat into your food choice but you need carbs as well to avoid totally depleting them.At longer distances it helps to add some protein into the mix for muscle maintenence purposes but too much can be counterproductive.
You don't need any significant protein on a ride. Energy bars and Gu-like products are primarily for convenience carb sources. They are compact and easy to store and access. There's some fad nature to them as well.
On a long ride, you need to consume carbs often to delay the depletion of glycogen in your legs. Once you are out of glycogen, you bonk and your output decreases dramatically as you are limited to fat burning.
Or even worse your ability to access fatburning at this point can become limited as the body can start trying to conserve fat by breaking down muscle to access protein to spare more vital (for survival) fat.
Personally I don't see any reason why protein and carbs have to be mutually exclusive.
On short rides (~ 30 miles) I eat a bar, usually Luna or Cliff. I always take some Gu-type packets with me, but I only use them if I need them. On long rides (~70+ miles) I take peanut butter and jelly sandwich halves and a bar or two, depending on how I'm going to ride. If I'm out for recreation, "real food" seems better for me. My metabolism is very high so I run out of energy quickly and have to eat regularly to stay on top of my energy needs. To me, on a long ride it is better for people with my metabolism to eat food that is high in good carbs and has a little fat and protein to boot. If I eat simple sugars I get the roller-coaster effect and I can't stand that. I will only eat a Gu if I'm getting close to bonking, and I try to follow that up with a bar or something soon afterwards. Everybody is different and we all have different needs. On a 100-miler I'll eat two bars, one or two Gu paks and 3-4 sandwich halves. On the other hand, my friend John will eat a couple of cookies. It really just depends on what you need.
Originally posted by Chris L
Personally I don't see any reason why protein and carbs have to be mutually exclusive.
They aren't. My point was that during a ride, significant amounts of protein are not required. Now, if you are riding all day long you might want some protein at lunch to meet the normal requirements.
Intensity. The speed or difficulty of the ride dictates what type of food is best. Many longer distance riders never really push hard enough to require high-carbo-easily-digestible mixes. So they can eat just about anything as long as they take it easy and stay hydrated.
On the other hand, many racers can't tolerate anything but carbs, during near-all-out efforts. They cant afford to shift any blood to the gut for digestion, so "special mixes" like GU, Hammergel etc. are called for.
In the middle are some highly trained cyclists that have adjusted their body to using Carb-mixes that have protein also. This carb-protein mix is the latest "thing" and works well for some. But unless you "train" yourself to use it-you might end up sick and tired..... The benefit of the mix is supposed to be longer lasting efforts, and quicker recovery after long efforts than a carb-only fueled ride.
I'm going to try it, I used to drink chocolate milk at the end of rides anyway...
Richard if you try this you may want to go with whey protein isolate as it is a very quick easy digesting protein and tends to flood the system at once much of which ends up being used as energy unless your protein needs are real high.It is a milk protein but the major protein in milk casein is much slower harder digesting with a more time release effect which is more likely to be used for protein needs rather than energy.
For many, Lactose, a sugar in milk is a bad thing, too, but I seem to "handle it OK.
Just a note for the record..
The experts suggest that whey protein not be used when riding it contributes to an ammonia build up.
If you want to see if the protein / carb set up will work for you I would try Endurox- R-4...
Make all your 40K's be in the 50's:beer:
Funny Looking at its web site Endurox R-4 uses whey as its protein source.
Originally posted by Chris L
Personally I don't see any reason why protein and carbs have to be mutually exclusive.
seeing that they both have a place in fueling your body I'd have to agree
Well I feel absolutely knackered after a long ride if I don't eat something with protein (meat, etc) before hand.
Now, High School Biology was a fair time ago, but doesn't the body need protein to break down carbohydrate and fats ?
Do Vegemite (/Marmite) sandwiches work for other people ? (if potted axle grease is available in your neck of the woods)
Cardio eats your muscles, and that's a FACT.
Up to 20% of your energy requirements for any ride over 2 hrs has to be met with protein. If you don't eat protein yourself, your body will not discriminate between protein from food or protein from your muscles. So, there you go.
If you want to get rid of your muscles ASAP, go on and don't consume anything else but carbs, but don't come whining why you don't have any muscles left.. ever seen a muscular road racer apart from the sprinters?
I am using whey protein as my main protein source during long rides to which I add a mix of maltodextrin and cordial (for taste) or honey (when riding from home). Honey has been proven to be just as good as or even better than any commercially carb source because of the other naturally occurring ingredients.
I've also tried boiled eggs, but these didn't stay well for very long rides (did a 600K ride recently and the eggs were spoilt after having been boiled 2 days before and being put in bags without drying them off).
Ivana
PBJ's make an riding food they are easly digestable and if you use something like bagels they hold up and give a lw fat carb source. Fiester is right if your body does not have enough protien it canabalizes it from your muscle. You should always consume some sort of protien wihtin the first hour after a long ride for more info go Rivendell cycle website these guys have a no nonsense approach to fueling yourself for long rides. many of these guys are triple century riders (yes that is in one day) Although I must admit I have used many of the new energy products out there I still prefer the balanced diet aproach less chemical input and I know what is in the food I make.
There are plenty of articles out there on nutrition. contrary to some beliefs, protein is good, fat is good. Just make sure you consume enough but don't overdo it. Say hello to nuts, avacados and olive oils. these are good fats. take a look at your favorite food and look out for "partially hydrogenated" anything. The real downer for me was my favorite bread was Orowheat Health Nut. But since it has partially hydrogenated oils, buh-bye. Goo - what is it good for? Well, the package size is nice, of course, but don't make a habit of living off these things. They are good because they are mostly malto-dextrin, which requires very little processing before it is readily available fuel for your body. They server best as a "pick-me-up" when you are bonking. Some people use "malto" as the main ingredient in their sports drink. This way they do very little eating and can regulate their carbo intake.
Here's a quick article that has the basic nutrition details...
http://library.thinkquest.org/11569/html_home/html_safety/nutrition.html
-Mark
Originally posted by fietser_ivana
Cardio eats your muscles, and that's a FACT.
Up to 20% of your energy requirements for any ride over 2 hrs has to be met with protein.
Got a reference URL for these 'facts'?
The last I knew, your energy requirements in the muscles are met with glycogen and fatty acids. Glycogen is primarily derived from carbohydrates. In the absence of carbohydrates, the body will break down protein to get glycogen. If there are sufficient carbohydrates available, the body does not need to break down protein.
Originally posted by supcom
Got a reference URL for these 'facts'?
The last I knew, your energy requirements in the muscles are met with glycogen and fatty acids. Glycogen is primarily derived from carbohydrates. In the absence of carbohydrates, the body will break down protein to get glycogen. If there are sufficient carbohydrates available, the body does not need to break down protein.
Energy and growth are to different things your muscles need to be maintained
I know an accute alcoholic who didn't eat protein and since your body needs a combo of sources to fuel itself and muscle needs protein to grow if your body craves it it finds it where it can. It will also go afet fat when it needs it which includes brain matter. I have watched it happen to him over the last couple of years. Why must every body have a URL when the dispute common sense maters you dis agree prove it!
What I question was the claim that 20% of your energy comes from protein on a ride longer than 2 hours. This seems to be a very large percentage to me.
I agree that protein is required for muscle maintenance and that if you consume no protein you will lose muscle mass. That's a no-brainer. But that has little to do with consumption of protein during a 2 hour ride.
Perhaps an argument could be made that consumption of protein during the ride would reduce recovery times or maximize muscle growth. It wouldn't neccessarily be common sense and it would be interesting if the subject has been studied. I have read that it is important to consume protein within 2 hours of ending exercise to maximize muscle repair and growth, but have not seen anything regarding protein consumption while the muscles are still being stressed.
I think what is meant is once glycogen is depleted on a long ride muscle breakdown can be significant particularly if you are a low bodyfat fast metabolism type.What she forgot to mention though was this means you should always start with glycogen topped to protect muscle.During intense/prolonged exercise the body
goes into a mode of depleting/breaking itself down and during this time it can't really focus on building itself up or storing fuel sources.If I am on a long ride I will stop for a break from the exercise for a regular meal with some time to digest and store .
This is why touring agrees with me as I can go long duration to burn fat but take breaks long enough to replentish glycogen to spare muscle .I feel it is always good to have some amino acids from protein floating around to spare muscle but don't think you really want to train your body to become more efficient at utilizing protein for fuel if you value muscle.
Originally posted by supcom
Got a reference URL for these 'facts'?
The last I knew, your energy requirements in the muscles are met with glycogen and fatty acids. Glycogen is primarily derived from carbohydrates. In the absence of carbohydrates, the body will break down protein to get glycogen. If there are sufficient carbohydrates available, the body does not need to break down protein.
Not an URL buddy, but a real old-fashioned paper book!
page 100 of The complete book of long-distance cycling from Edmund R Burke and Ed Pavelka
table shows energy use while cycling at 70% of aerobic capacity (typical for endurance cyclists).
I'm guesstimating the % as I have to read a pie-chart without data
1hr: 45% muscle glycogen, 15% glucose, 45% fat, 2% protein
2,5hr: 30% muscle glycogen, 25% glucose, 45% fat, 8% protein
5hr: 0% glycogen, 45% glucose, 45% fat, 10% protein..
OK, my bad.. thought it was 15% and exaggerated to 20% to make an impression.. seems to be 10%.. hadn't seen the book for a while!
Advice was to take in protein, but avoid too much of them, not above 15% of energy requirement. Fat takes too long to digest.. fiber should be avoided as well they say..
I used whey protein (very easily digested), first with honey (too sweet) and later with maltodextrin (also very easily digested, doesn't taste sweet)
Ivana
OK, your figures generally agree with http://www.gssiweb.com/reflib/refs/258/rt42.cfm?pid=38 with regard to the protein percentages. However, the conclusion reached in the article I cite is that there is no hard evidence that consumption of protein during exercise has a bearing on performance. It doesn't mean there is no benefit, but I expect any benefit would be minor.
We must, of course, consider the source is the Gatorade Sports Science Institute which may not be the most objective source. However, in the competitive world of sports beverages, if there were a perceived benefit to consuming protein during exercise, it would be a trivial matter for the Gatorade folks to add protein to their drinks.
Where do you all think the increased use of glucose for fuel after glycogen is depleted is coming from?It is coming from gluconeogenesis or the breakdown of muscle tissue and conversion into glucose. So after glycogen is depleted equal amounts of fuel are being provided by fat and conversion of muscle protein to glucose with the balance direct use of amino acids as fuel.
Originally posted by RWTD
Where do you all think the increased use of glucose for fuel after glycogen is depleted is coming from?It is coming from gluconeogenesis or the breakdown of muscle tissue and conversion into glucose. So after glycogen is depleted equal amounts of fuel are being provided by fat and conversion of muscle protein to glucose with the balance direct use of amino acids as fuel.
From what I can determine, gluconeogenesis comes into play when available glucose levels are low. If you are consuming carbs, especially simple carbs, your body should have no shortage of glucose during exercise.
This seems to be distinct from the level of glycogen in the muscles. Once glycogen is depleted (the bonk), your muscles are basically limited to fat metabolism for fuel. You can easily consume enough carbs to keep your glucose level high, but until the body gets a chance to synthesis more glycogen, your use of glucose for fuel is going to be somewhere other than the muscles that are glycogen starved.
Certainly if you do not consume any carbs or protein during a long ride, you will eventually deplete both muscle glycogen and blood glucose. When the glucose level gets low, the liver will break down protein to create glucose. It just seems that this can be minimized, if not prevented, by regular consumption of carbohydrates during exercise.
Hmm I'm quite happy using whey protein.. I've been low-carbing for 7 months now in combination with weight training.. and i can FINALLY lose fat rather than muscles what I was doing by extreme rides and eating 'normal' (read: not enough protein). Getting in enough protein is therefore, vital for me...
Whey protein happens to be the best digestable protein source.. so I use that with great satisfaction.. have to fidget with the carb source, but a combination of a bit of cordial (for taste) and maltodextrin (fast-acting carb, not very sweet taste) seems to work very well... a LOT cheaper too than the commercially available carb-protein mixes (and I control what gets in too!). Rest of carbs comes from mueslibars.
No my major problem is that eating just carbs is getting so stale that after about 250 K I can't bear the thought of eating another carby thing and only a not-too sweat whey-carb mix goes down, plus a bit of fatty/protein food.. like e.g. cheese, boiled eggs (can't stand bread and am allergic to peanuts)
Ivana
My understanding is that either glucose or glycogen(or any energy substrate) will ultimately be converted to ATP in the muscle to provide energy .So I would think once muscle glycogen is depleted your muscles are not limited to fat for fuel but rather glucose/fat/protein.I agree eating carbs while exercising to provide glucose would limit gluconeogenesis in this situation and it seems that perhaps 5-15% protein in this situation could help limit muscle breakdown for direct amino acid use as fuel as well.The problem is endurance athletes become very trained at using gluconeogenesis to provide fuel leading to the results Ivana alluded to originally and I suspect during exercise with depleted glycogen it would be hard to constantly consume enough simple carbs/protein to avoid a significant amount of muscle breakdown occurring(keep in mind in this situation the body actually prefers to tear its muscle down sparing use of fat as fuel as well and for this reason I feel it is useful for endurance at this point to include some fat intake as well ).
I haven't seen anything regarding the muscles directly using protein for energy. What I have seen is that the muscle uses a combination of glycogen and fatty acids for energy. The glycogen is synthesised in the muscle from glucose and the fatty acids come directly from the bloodstream. If you do not consume carbs, eventually you start running low on blood glucose. This prompts the liver to first convert it's stores of glycogen to glucose. When this is depleted, or is unable to keep the blood sugar level up, the liver will resort to gluconeogenesis to convert amino acids to glucose.
Protein MAY be useful in very long exercise sessions if you are going long enough to exhaust blood levels of amino acids that are used up in the normal course of exercise. This asssumes that the body will use protein for body maintenance during exercise - an assumption that I have not seen addressed anywhere. The literature I have found on the net discusses only whether protein consumption during exercise improves performance or whether protein consumption before or after exercise improves recovery. In the first case, there appears to be no consensus on protein's role in extending performance during exercise. In the second it appears that protein consumed shortly after exercise increases the rate of glycogen synthesis at least when suboptimal levels of carbs are consumed after exercise.
Now someone like ivana who is relying on gluconeogenesis as a primary source of glucose changes the situation. If one is going to severely limit the intake of carbs, then the glucose is going to need to come from amino acids. Since the body does not store amino acids or protein, consumption of protein may be critical to prevent breakdown of muscle once glycogen stores are depleted.
One thing is certain. the body is quite adaptable at using whatever calories we injest to meet our energy needs.
Here are a few links on fuel use including amino acids during exercise.Note in the first article glucose from plasma,glycogen stores or gluconeogenesis as well as plasma free fatty acids,intramuscular triglycerides and amino acids all can provide energy during exercise.The subsequent articles go into more detail about specific amino acids used for energy ie leucine predominately(but also 5 others) directly and alanine predominately for gluconeogenesis.The first is a good article but note it is focused on performance and training without depleting glycogen which I agree with and I think you are focusing on as well(ie your average fast paced ride or relatively fast paced century)where you ingest alot of carbs and largely rely on them for fuel .But the original poster referred to a long distance forum which I assumed was the bicycle.com forum that focuses on 200-500 mile pretty much continuous rides lasting a day to a day and a half or more and Ivana was referring to 200 mile rides on low protein diets high carb diet where she still lost muscle.These types of endurance or "ultra"endurance if you will cyclists become well trained at utilizing fat as well as muscle for fuel because they habitually train with low or depleted glycogen levels as they can't take in enough calories in carb or other form to offset the enormous level of calories burned.I by contrast also focus on maximizing fat utilization but try to minimize or eliminate muscle utilization for fuel.I do distances up to 140 miles(so far)and up to 10 hours per day but take breaks for regular meals to restore glycogen.These are the situations where more fat and protein in the diet are warrented and I have seen some links on this but don't have time to dig them up right now but will later if there is any interest . http://www.activehealth.co.nz/glycogen_sparing,htm.htm
http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/mcdonald/protein-03.htm
http://tgenade.freeshell.org/biochem/glucagon.htm
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