"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Racing and pain -- an observation

How is it we forget pain so quickly? It's not really masochism. But everyone experiences that feeling at least once a season (for me, once a race): that "what the hell, never doing this again" feeling. But almost immediately after the race, it's forgotten and the racer is planning his/her next wilful invitation of pain and humiliation. I suppose it's just an evolutionary thing: that capacity to quickly forget pain that doesn't injure. I shouldn't mischaracterise. Racing is fun, but an uncomfortable type of fun even at the best of times. Ah well, chalk it up to adrenaline.

Crushing the souls of thine enemies and hearing the lamentations of their women folk makes it all worth it.

Also, it helps if you go on at least one training ride near the beginning of your season that is as painful as possible. Find a stronger guy to ride with and spend 40-50 miles just trying to hold his wheel on some hills. Racing will feel like cake in comparison, I ****e you not!

I used to wonder if the guys who were winning were hurting as much as I was.

Then I started winning and learned that it hurts even more at the front.

Simple; the body does not remember pain.

I think everyone feels it, and thinks about quitting. I know I've felt that, and I know other very strong riders who win a lot feel that way.

You're suffering, and you wonder why you do it. Why bother? You're too slow/too fat/too weak to win. It's stupid...but the draw of the race keeps you going, and keeps you coming back.

Competition is both the means, and the end.

I've known plenty of pain as an ex-racer running road races. Many running road races and track races are done way above LT. Talk about painful. Your chest is heaving, lungs burning in an attempt to get more oxygen to muscles that are accumulating more and more lactic acid and producing hydrogen ions. You can't slow down because that's what you should be feeling for that race distance.

At the end, some people say "never again" and I wouldn't see them out there the following year. Others say, "never again", but next season, there we are toeing the start line again. It's crazy.

Racers, who are their own engines, have an appreciation for the feelings incurred during a race. The excitement at the start, the jockeying for position, the pushing of physical limits within the context of the race distance and requiremets, the eventual pain and fatigue, the battling past the pain and the fatigue to finally cross the finish line, the elation and feelings of fulfilment that you did the very best you could. And for the very few who cross the line first, the pride of being one of the best for that day.

Your everyday man and woman on the street has no clue.

Same could be said for childbirth, right?

On a side note: When I was about 18, I read an article in Bicycling about pain in racing. The pain this. The torture that. About how it's the most overwhelming thing in racing--how to deal with the pain, pain, pain. It turned me off of racing, which was a shame, becuase now that I'm 50, I'm finally going to try my first race.

So while I understand the pain angle, I also appreciate the idea that, hopefully, it's not the biggest aspect of the race. It's the race. (Right? Tell me this is right!)

Cheers.

I used to wonder if the guys who were winning were hurting as much as I was.

Then I started winning and learned that it hurts even more at the front.
+1 After winning, I about fell over at the line and thought "WTF?" That was the day my burnout started -- and unfortunately the day I earned the last of my Cat 3 upgrade points...

I think training for suffering is as important as training for fitness, and my head's in a lot better place with it now, 15 years after that win. I find myself, suffering much more by myself and much less when others are trying to dial it up.

I think the best example of forgetting pain is with women giving birth. The fact that they'll agree to a 2nd child is astonishing.

EDIT: just beat me to it, Second Mouse! :)

Same could be said for childbirth, right?

On a side note: When I was about 18, I read an article in Bicycling about pain in racing. The pain this. The torture that. About how it's the most overwhelming thing in racing--how to deal with the pain, pain, pain. It turned me off of racing, which was a shame, becuase now that I'm 50, I'm finally going to try my first race.

So while I understand the pain angle, I also appreciate the idea that, hopefully, it's not the biggest aspect of the race. It's the race. (Right? Tell me this is right!)

Cheers.

It's the feeling that you pushed yourself to do the best you could do. It's icing on the cake to finish first.

Being flooded at the end of the race with endorphins reenforces the desire to do it again in the near future.

The vast, vast majority of us are just random Cat X guys vying for a spot on the cheap plywood podium. There are no dreams of turning pro, making money, etc. In most cases, there's only a 1 in 75 shot that I'll win the day. Much worse odds than the guy who's teeing up with his regular foursome right now.

There is pride in overcoming adversity. Maybe it's just not getting dropped this time. Maybe it's finishing with the pack. Maybe it's winning the prime or the finishing sprint. At the end of the day, though, it doesn't matter. The satisfaction comes from pushing harder, faster than before, and the further we push the more we realize we're capable of.

For me the pain is much more noticeable doing solo interval training. In a race or hard group ride, there is inherent external motivation (not to embarrass yourself) and there are other people and actions to focus on.

Doing hard intervals, I am constantly wanting to quit and thinking "why am I doing this" "this is stupid" "I am hurting myself" "I could just quit right now" "I am getting over a cold so it's okay if I quit early" etc, etc...

Fighting that internal voice is really hard.

Because in the end, win or lose, something is gained.

And it's worth it. :)

For me the pain is much more noticeable doing solo interval training. In a race or hard group ride, there is inherent external motivation (not to embarrass yourself) and there are other people and actions to focus on.

Doing hard intervals, I am constantly wanting to quit and thinking "why am I doing this" "this is stupid" "I am hurting myself" "I could just quit right now" "I am getting over a cold so it's okay if I quit early" etc, etc...

Fighting that internal voice is really hard.

x1 billyun...I guess that's probably pretty similar with everyone. I do 99% of my riding with others, even interval sessions.

I wonder if a big difference between those who see huge gains from training vs those who don't is the first group has a much higher pain threshold and hold hard efforts for longer...

See these two threads ...

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=108754&highlight=pain

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=49113&highlight=pain

Mark

Really interesting responses. It's cool to see the different attitudes we have to the same phenomenon.

+1 Big time to the pain of training though. The great thing I've found this year is that it doesn't have much -- at least for me -- to do with motivation; it's just a matter of having very focussed goals; and then having tons of discipline.

Same could be said for childbirth, right?

I wouldn't know.

I'm quite sure that if you ever mention to a woman in labor that what she's going through is in any way similar to a BIKE RACE, you'll get injured.

I'm quite sure that if you ever mention to a woman in labor that what she's going through is in any way similar to a BIKE RACE, you'll get injured.

:fight:

I think I am too weakly motivated when cycling alone. That internal voice that says "Ok you can just get off an walk now" or "why bother, you are training for endurance", or the best one yet "you still have 6 weeks until the big ride". The only time I really can push myself is in a group when the embarrassment of getting dropped keeps me going. I gotta figure this out, though, cause so much of training is a solo effort.

I'm quite sure that if you ever mention to a woman in labor that what she's going through is in any way similar to a BIKE RACE, you'll get injured.


I'm glad I never have to find out what that feels like!!! I'll take a bit of gutter action any day.

I find the pain of intervals easier to endure than the pain of racing. With an interval, you know when the pain will end ("just sixty more seconds and I can recover!") but in a race the duration of the pain is beyond my control. That makes it scarier.

I've known plenty of pain as an ex-racer running road races.

I've realized that when I was really beat running though I slowed down enough so that I couldn't hurt myself anymore. I suffered but caught my breath and was good to go in a day or two, even after marathons.

The difference on a bike is that I can be fairly toasted and still kick out repeated efforts that will rip me up enough so that I'm sore for a week. It's obvious that for me personally, getting into situations where very hard efforts are very painful and make me go faster is pretty easy. But it's also the case that these efforts impact my overall workout schedule.

I'm trying to figure out now if I'm stronger after these thrashings than if I'd just done races and workouts below this high pain threshold. I'm more interested in continuous improvement than this year's race performance. I know Carmichael's said about Lance's post cancer training was that more focused on things like aerobic fitness than pain.

Then I started winning and learned that it hurts even more at the front.

I think Greg Lemond said it best (although I think he was refering to racing up mountains)

"It does'nt get easier, you just go faster."

I know Carmichael's said about Lance's post cancer training was that more focused on things like aerobic fitness than pain.

I'd also be willing to bet that there are plenty of CAT2/3 sprinters who could nip post cancer Armstrong at the line in a crit.

We who generally only race 60 minute crits, and 60 mile RRs probably don't want to train the same way as a GT centric pro does...

I'd also be willing to bet that there are plenty of CAT2/3 sprinters who could nip post cancer Armstrong at the line in a crit.

We who generally only race 60 minute crits, and 60 mile RRs probably don't want to train the same way as a GT centric pro does...

I would also point out that listening to some Pro or Trainer as Carmichael as to how one should train is akin to listening to Dorian Yates give you pointers on body building. Pointless.

I would also point out that listening to some Pro or Trainer as Carmichael as to how one should train is akin to listening to Dorian Yates give you pointers on body building. Pointless.

I'm a beginner still and I'm 39 so I probably can hurt myself more easily than someone who is better trained. I also won't recover as quickly as someone who's younger.

Is being sore all the time normal then? Is it part of the building process? Do you recommend extreme efforts that you know will leave you sore for days?

I can definitely get loco once a week and wreck myself pretty badly but I don't know if this serves me any better than simply putting in strong races and workouts that leave me short of being beat up. Actually there are races within 20 miles of here most days of the week but I'm interested in long term gains.

Is being sore all the time normal then? Is it part of the building process? Do you recommend extreme efforts that you know will leave you sore for days?


Power meter plug! This is the great thing about training with power, and the concepts of ATL/CTL/TSB.

To answer the OP: Because we can. My pain disappears in face of overcoming. Overcoming myself, overcoming my bike, and overcoming the others that show up to overcome me.

And... to hear my kids say "Good job Dad!"

I'd also be willing to bet that there are plenty of CAT2/3 sprinters who could nip post cancer Armstrong at the line in a crit.

I'll take that bet! LA won an "easy day" field sprint in the Tour de Georgia remember. I can almost guarantee you that Lance *on the front* could have wound up a sprint long enough and fast enough that no cat2/3 sprinters could come around him.

A lot of people have the naive impression that Pro Tour riders are only good at the thing they are best at, i.e., climbers can only climb and sprinters can only sprint and tt'ers can only time trial. That is very, very wrong.


We who generally only race 60 minute crits, and 60 mile RRs probably don't want to train the same way as a GT centric pro does...

That is certainly true!

I'm not totally comfortable referring to my experience on the bike as pain but only because it pales in comparison to "real" pain. It's definitely significant discomfort, though.

--Steve

I'll take that bet! LA won an "easy day" field sprint in the Tour de Georgia remember. I can almost guarantee you that Lance *on the front* could have wound up a sprint long enough and fast enough that no cat2/3 sprinters could come around him.


I can't find any Armstrong numbers for MMP, but at his peak Landis could put out 1250w. I know of several local 2/3 guys capable of 1500.

I can't find any Armstrong numbers for MMP, but at his peak Landis could put out 1250w. I know of several local 2/3 guys capable of 1500.


I think OTB was trying to say, Lance would hit it with 400 meters to go and all the fastest cat2/3 guys would be so throttled, nobody would be able to come around.

How is it we forget pain so quickly? It's not really masochism. But everyone experiences that feeling at least once a season (for me, once a race): that "what the hell, never doing this again" feeling. But almost immediately after the race, it's forgotten and the racer is planning his/her next wilful invitation of pain and humiliation. I suppose it's just an evolutionary thing: that capacity to quickly forget pain that doesn't injure. I shouldn't mischaracterise. Racing is fun, but an uncomfortable type of fun even at the best of times. Ah well, chalk it up to adrenaline.

I often wake up at 3 or 4 AM on the day of a race dreading the pain that lies ahead.
During the warm-up my stomach is always in knots.
Then, in the race there are ALWAYS those times that I feel like dropping out.
I think "this is too painful, I just want to quit", but I keep going and finish the race.

Then by Monday it's all forgotten and all I can think about is doing my next race. :D

Power meter plug! This is the great thing about training with power, and the concepts of ATL/CTL/TSB.

To answer the OP: Because we can. My pain disappears in face of overcoming. Overcoming myself, overcoming my bike, and overcoming the others that show up to overcome me.

And... to hear my kids say "Good job Dad!"

Thanks!

Hunter Allen's book pretty much says, "Well, we're still figuring out what those things mean, but stay tuned and you'll get the hang of it soon enough." How are you using these figures and what are you looking for in your own graphs?

There's also a huge recovery difference (and a little bit of speed improvement) between my off-my-rocker efforts and my harder workout pace/efforts. In a race situation, I can get a little nuts and then wreck myself for the better part of a week whereas my hardest, longest interval workout done full tilt is work but I'm good to go after a day off.

It's that fine line that I'm looking for. Or maybe I just need some strength training to limit the amount of damage I take at effort?

I often wake up at 3 or 4 AM on the day of a race dreading the pain that lies ahead.
During the warm-up my stomach is always in knots.
Then, in the race there are ALWAYS those times that I feel like dropping out.
I think "this is too painful, I just want to quit", but I keep going and finish the race.

Then by Monday it's all forgotten and all I can think about is doing my next race. :D

I have a mountain biker friend who takes more water with him because he knows he'll be slightly dehydrated after retching. His stomach just empties in anticipation of technical courses. Some of the jumps, descents, ladders and bridges terrify him. He's wrecked numerous times and it's probably just his body's way of saying, "DO NOT DO THIS."

It reminds me of a shirt I've seen at beer festivals, "THE LIVER IS EVIL AND MUST BE PUNISHED."

I often wake up at 3 or 4 AM on the day of a race dreading the pain that lies ahead.
During the warm-up my stomach is always in knots.
Then, in the race there are ALWAYS those times that I feel like dropping out.
I think "this is too painful, I just want to quit", but I keep going and finish the race.

Then by Monday it's all forgotten and all I can think about is doing my next race. :D

Forgotten?? Hell, an hour after the race is done, I'm talking about how amazing it was and what the sprint was like and how we hammered the hills and I made the lead group and...!

How are you using these figures and what are you looking for in your own graphs?


I don't necessarily plan every day with the figures, but I do know when a workout is going to hurt more/less based on the trend in my acute training load (ATL / fatigue). My daily training stress score of each workout is vital to what I do.

For instance, in the spring my chronic training load ( CTL/fitness ) maxed out around 129 TSS/day. I could sustain a daily average of 135 TSS/day for 3-4 days without significant impact on my workouts, but once I hit 5 or 6 days at that average, I needed a break or I wasn't getting through the workouts.

Right now I'm still building CTL for the second half of my year and am climbing into a CTL of 130 TSS/day+ and I am holding in a second week at over 135 TSS/day and performance is not suffering at all. However, I know that as I get ready to race this weekend for the first time in a month, I'm going to need to taper a little bit and bring my ATL down. That upward TREND in training stress balance (TSB) will tell me how much of my "freshness" is in the bank when I show up at the start line. The longer/harder the race, the more I would want to have in the "balance" if I wanted to do well. Fortunately, I don't care much about results this weekend - it's kinda course recon for later in the year - so I'll have pretty minimal taper before hammering out next week's hard week.



It's that fine line that I'm looking for. Or maybe I just need some strength training to limit the amount of damage I take at effort?

It took me about 6 months of training and watching all of the values on the performance management chart to get a good grip of what is going on and how all of the numbers effect each other. To be perfectly honest, ATL is the least valuable number to me as I find a NON weighted 7 day TSS average to be much more "readable" of how I feel (though the weighted average is obviously accurate as my sustainable 7 day average has gone up as my CTL has gone up).

Being aware of my "breaking points" has allowed my forego "recovery weeks" and work with well planned recovery time throughout every week to maintain a workable training schedule.

At the end of the day, the numbers are a reflection more of how you feel but it's ultimately the makeup of your workouts that will be what you can do.

The vast, vast majority of us are just random Cat X guys vying for a spot on the cheap plywood podium. There are no dreams of turning pro, making money, etc. In most cases, there's only a 1 in 75 shot that I'll win the day. Much worse odds than the guy who's teeing up with his regular foursome right now.

There is pride in overcoming adversity. Maybe it's just not getting dropped this time. Maybe it's finishing with the pack. Maybe it's winning the prime or the finishing sprint. At the end of the day, though, it doesn't matter. The satisfaction comes from pushing harder, faster than before, and the further we push the more we realize we're capable of.

Exactly! Those are my feelings. Did my first race three years ago at 53, 6 more since then, never won but always among the first quarter.

I'll take that bet! LA won an "easy day" field sprint in the Tour de Georgia remember. I can almost guarantee you that Lance *on the front* could have wound up a sprint long enough and fast enough that no cat2/3 sprinters could come around him.

A lot of people have the naive impression that Pro Tour riders are only good at the thing they are best at, i.e., climbers can only climb and sprinters can only sprint and tt'ers can only time trial. That is very, very wrong.

Probably a mediocre Pro Tour sprinter/climber/TTer is still better at it than a local champion.

I can't find any Armstrong numbers for MMP, but at his peak Landis could put out 1250w. I know of several local 2/3 guys capable of 1500.

So I could easily beat Landis in a sprint.... well if I even get there

I can't find any Armstrong numbers for MMP, but at his peak Landis could put out 1250w. I know of several local 2/3 guys capable of 1500.

whats to say that landis could hold that wattage for say... 10/15 seconds ? while the 2/3 guys could hold 1500 for 5 seconds ?

its all in how long you can put out that power for that matters and also watts per kilo

It's been said that professional athletes love the pain. They see it as a sign that they're working hard enough. I think that's true. For me it's also when that pain suddenly turns into triumph. On my tour it was when instead of having to drop into my lowest gears on a hill I suddenly found myself accelerating uphill. Or when I was being chased by a storm and I was able to mash in top gear for minutes at new top speeds. Or just general sections of riding where I suddenly realized I was a machine breathing methodically and moving with a consistent cadence. The miles burned away. It's easy to forget the pain when things start working right.

... lots good stuff

At the end of the day, the numbers are a reflection more of how you feel but it's ultimately the makeup of your workouts that will be what you can do.

Arigato gozaimasu, Nomad-san. That was helpful! BTW, 3-4 days of heavy load instead of 5 or 6? Do you do "active recovery" days? Has this number changed with your level of experience?