I think it is the tandem@hobbs listserv that had a recent running discussion about how to deal with a chasing dog. This morning a dog darted in front of the lead tandem in a group of three sending John to one hospital in an ambulance and Mary to another hospital by helicopter. The dog was running along side our three tandems, about 20-30 feet to our right through an orchard, and suddenly with no warning took a sharp left turn into John and Mary's front wheel. We think it was riders coming the other way that the dog noticed, and decided to chase them instead. There was no warning, and the dog had to jump a ditch to get to the road -- it still happened so fast we didn't see it coming. Even in retrospect, we're not sure what we could have done -- maybe slow down or stop, but who knows. We were going 20-22 mph at the time.
John is ok, but hurts all over. Mary -- we'll see, but she is alert with no obvious breaks. She was still in the ER when we left the hospital two hours ago. Both probably have concussions of one severity or another. Oddly enough the stoker took the worst of it -- probably due to the captain's split-second attempt to turn away from the dog. Where's the dog? Probably 2 counties away and still running.
Both will need new helmets. Their helmets will be used as examples of why we wear them. The support from our local fire department and UC Davis Life Flight was outstanding.
The BikeForums Team
-adv-
This is an archived thread, you can find the full version of this thread, with images, links and more content here.
We had a near-identical incident happen right in front of us two weeks ago. It was frightening to see our friends hit the ground hard as we swerved to avoid hitting them. Both hit their heads and the stoker was knocked unconscious for 2-3 minutes, helmets certainly saved them from severe head injury.
We’ve only been chased a few times, always by dogs that were chasing us from behind and so far we’ve been able to out-sprint them. I‘ve replayed our friends accident in my mind a hundred times and I don’t think we would have avoided it either if we had been the one’s up front.
I‘ve changed my thoughts about dog strategy after seeing it happen though, and think that if the same scenario were presented to me now, and if I could react fast enough, as soon as I realized the dog had any chance to overtake us, we would be safer to slam on the brakes immediately. Even a very large pit bull, as we saw that day, is less scary than a trip to the hospital for both of us.
Our captain friend is still very severely bruised and mostly pissed that he doesn’t heal as fast as he did in his younger days. The stoker spent two nights in the hospital because of a small amount of blood showing on the MRI of her head. She’s still sore but not as bruised as the captain.
The dog problem is not unique to tandem riders, I’ve heard of single riders taken down just as bad. What are some good strategies or deterrents that others have used?
My best story was our first tandem 3 day “tour” at the Suwannee Bike Fest in rural North Central Florida. On our first day we found ourselves with a group of about a dozen singles who had all ridden there before. A dog goes after us and we all start sprinting off and we hear behind us “KAPOW”. And the dog halted in his tracks. One of the guys behind us had what he said was a “starter pistol” but he put it back in his pocket with out showing it. I suspect that the first shot was the warning shot and the second would have not been aimed in the air. He used it again with similar results twice more during the course of the ride.
DBC Steve
regomatic -- thanks for the comments. Attached are two pics -- one of John's helmet and the other a photo of Mary going into the helicopter. Report from hospital is:
1. She will be in the ICU 1-2 days.
2. She is no longer a "dog person".
3. lots of bruises, a few broken facial bones, but sense of humor coming back.
regomatic
Ouch!
I think our friends avoided the facial injuries and more road rash because of the size of the dog. It was like hitting a wall. They decelerated to near zero immediately and just fell over. When that happens, you still fall over hard.
stormchaser
I don't think trying to turn is good. Probably better to keep the bike straight.
We fell over the other day as we turned up a very steep hill and the chain dropped to the inside, we stopped instantly and I couldn't unclip fast enough, nary a bruise but the pride took a beating.
zonatandem
At one tandem event, a stoker used a starter pistol to stop a dog in his assault mode. Scared the hell out of a few of us.
Turning toward the assaulting dog, if possible + shouting/yelling has worked with some dogs for us.
Have been chased by anything from a dachshund to a St.Bernard. A goat and geese and coyote and a divebombing angry bird can be added to that menagerie. If you invade animals' territory they will defend it!
. . and yes, have cracked a helmet . . . it's a cheap investment.
We wish John/Mary a speedy recovery.
transam
Wow! Your story brings back memories of an accident I had with a dog 4 years ago. I was riding early Sunday morning by myself when a large Akita darted from the side of the road right in front of me. I hit him broad side, went over the handlebars, hit my head on the pavement and was knocked unconscious for a while. The injuries included a shattered collar bone, 3 broked ribs, a punctured lung and a herniated disc in my back. I spent 5 days in the hospital and had to endure 3 operations. My helmet definitely saved my life.
Fortunately I knew where the dog came from so was eventually able to recover my losses along with a nice settlement for pain and suffering. It took our lawyer a year and a half to get the settlement, but the wait was worth it.
Can you find the dog's owner? If yes, then there is a good chance your friends can get reimbursment for the damages.
DBC Steve
Thanks all for the supportive comments and suggestions. John and Mary are doing better. I've received a number of comments from Davis Bike Club members who often ride down that road, and they've never seen a dog. It has a wheat field on one side and orchards on the other -- no house for miles. It may have simply been lost or wandering.
I recall the tandem@hobbes discussion about whether to say "bad dog" or "good dog" or "hey YOU" or any other phrases that might come to mind or may have been successful in the past. Although we saw the dog as the second tandem in the group, John and Mary didn't see it at all. Mary's comment in retrospect was "What dog?"
One good thing that has come out of this is I know a lot of cyclists who don't tighten their helmets, figuring just strapping it on is good enough. That includes my stoker, so I was told this afternoon! Again, thanks for the comments and ideas.
FoC
I think it is the tandem@hobbs listserv that had a recent running discussion about how to deal with a chasing dog. This morning a dog darted in front of the lead tandem in a group of three sending John to one hospital in an ambulance and Mary to another hospital by helicopter. The dog was running along side our three tandems, about 20-30 feet to our right through an orchard, and suddenly with no warning took a sharp left turn into John and Mary's front wheel. We think it was riders coming the other way that the dog noticed, and decided to chase them instead. There was no warning, and the dog had to jump a ditch to get to the road -- it still happened so fast we didn't see it coming. Even in retrospect, we're not sure what we could have done -- maybe slow down or stop, but who knows. We were going 20-22 mph at the time.
John is ok, but hurts all over. Mary -- we'll see, but she is alert with no obvious breaks. She was still in the ER when we left the hospital two hours ago. Both probably have concussions of one severity or another. Oddly enough the stoker took the worst of it -- probably due to the captain's split-second attempt to turn away from the dog. Where's the dog? Probably 2 counties away and still running.
Both will need new helmets. Their helmets will be used as examples of why we wear them. The support from our local fire department and UC Davis Life Flight was outstanding.
I just called our local police dept yesterday to ask them about dogs and what is my legal right as far as keeping them away from us when riding.
Personally, the next dog that starts chasing us when riding wont be going home again.
Im really sick and tired of worthless, irresponsible dog owners letting their beasts run about chasing bikes, children and old women. We had an ill mannered Rott accost a 70ish year old woman right in front of my house three weeks ago. The owner never came out to get the dog who was running the streets.
FoC
Thanks all for the supportive comments and suggestions. John and Mary are doing better. I've received a number of comments from Davis Bike Club members who often ride down that road, and they've never seen a dog. It has a wheat field on one side and orchards on the other -- no house for miles. It may have simply been lost or wandering.
I recall the tandem@hobbes discussion about whether to say "bad dog" or "good dog" or "hey YOU" or any other phrases that might come to mind or may have been successful in the past. Although we saw the dog as the second tandem in the group, John and Mary didn't see it at all. Mary's comment in retrospect was "What dog?"
One good thing that has come out of this is I know a lot of cyclists who don't tighten their helmets, figuring just strapping it on is good enough. That includes my stoker, so I was told this afternoon! Again, thanks for the comments and ideas.
Its good to hear they are doing well :)
Ive considered also carrying a pack of cheap hot dogs to distract the dog with.
Im still contemplating whether or not lethal force will be the next step if the dog persists.
FoC
If you invade animals' territory they will defend it!
Well, come on, I ride on the street. The street ISNT the dogs territory but MINE as a man who pays his taxes for those streets.
Dogs need to be in a fence or on a leash.
If they arent and they attack a person outside their own home or yard, they need to be put down and the owner needs to face jail time for felonious assault.
Red Rider
I think it is the tandem@hobbs listserv that had a recent running discussion about how to deal with a chasing dog. This morning a dog darted in front of the lead tandem in a group of three sending John to one hospital in an ambulance and Mary to another hospital by helicopter. The dog was running along side our three tandems, about 20-30 feet to our right through an orchard, and suddenly with no warning took a sharp left turn into John and Mary's front wheel. We think it was riders coming the other way that the dog noticed, and decided to chase them instead. There was no warning, and the dog had to jump a ditch to get to the road -- it still happened so fast we didn't see it coming. Even in retrospect, we're not sure what we could have done -- maybe slow down or stop, but who knows. We were going 20-22 mph at the time.
John is ok, but hurts all over. Mary -- we'll see, but she is alert with no obvious breaks. She was still in the ER when we left the hospital two hours ago. Both probably have concussions of one severity or another. Oddly enough the stoker took the worst of it -- probably due to the captain's split-second attempt to turn away from the dog. Where's the dog? Probably 2 counties away and still running.
Both will need new helmets. Their helmets will be used as examples of why we wear them. The support from our local fire department and UC Davis Life Flight was outstanding.
OMG! I'm so sorry! Please pass along my wishes for their full & speedy recoveries.
This is why I want a squirt gun loaded with ammonia.
I wish everyone was a responsible pet owner.
Red Rider
I just called our local police dept yesterday to ask them about dogs and what is my legal right as far as keeping them away from us when riding.
Personally, the next dog that starts chasing us when riding wont be going home again.
Im really sick and tired of worthless, irresponsible dog owners letting their beasts run about chasing bikes, children and old women. We had an ill mannered Rott accost a 70ish year old woman right in front of my house three weeks ago. The owner never came out to get the dog who was running the streets.
I have no idea what the local laws are as regards favoring cyclists.
In NJ 30 yrs. ago I had just my trusty Raleigh for all my transportation needs. I lived in the country (stop laughing! NJ has country!) and a dog whose house I passed 4 times a day to & from work always came out to snap & bark mere inches from my right foot. I got a squirt gun & filled it with ammonia. I aimed his massive gaping maw. I may have missed & hit his eyes or nose a time or two...after a few passes he'd still come barking & snapping, but stayed several feet behind me. Good dog.
That doesn't help John & Mary but it may help the rest of us, until dog owners sac up & assume responsibility for their animals & their animals' actions.
TandemGeek
Submitted by Team Godzilla's captain to the March 2003 Tailwind Tandem Club Newsletter (http://www.tailwindtandemclub.com/March%20newsletter2003.pdf)
waterrockets
Glad everyone is ok or at least stable from all these stories. Sorry to hear about all the troubles.
I've left two dogs lying on the roadside from my solo bike. For one of them, I pulled my u-lock off my commuter rack every time I went by this Rottie's house. One time he got too close and I cracked him on the head with the lock-end. He went down and I kept going. Never saw him again.
The other dog was a German Shepherd chasing my wife and I on our solos. She's not as fast as me, or I'd have just sprinted. Instead, I told her to go, and I stayed back, hoping the dog would go for me. Well, he ran right past me toward my wife. I sprinted up to him, unclipped, and kicked him on the head with my cleat. He skidded to a stop on his chin and didn't get up.
Lately I've had really good luck just stopping, dropping to the small ring, and sprinting after the dog. They run away faster than anything I've seen. I couldn't pull that off on our tandem though. Luckily we're still just riding around the neighborhood and Veloway on the tandem, and have no real dog issues in those areas.
Well, come on, I ride on the street. The street ISNT the dogs territory but MINE as a man who pays his taxes for those streets.
Dogs need to be in a fence or on a leash...
I agree!!!
In our neck of the woods there are leash laws that prohibit dogs from running loose. My thoughts are if the dog is loose it's fair game for halt, squirt gun loaded with ammonia, frame pump, rocks, pellet gun or what ever it takes to stop the danger. Also, the dog owner is responsible for all damages incurred if an accident occurs with a loose dog.
RickinFl
I've had a long standing fantasy of teaching my stoker to use a slingshot- one of the type with the velcro pouch that can be loaded with BBs or something like that. Sort of a tailgunner for dogs. My current stoker is blind, so the results would probably be chaotic.
In by gone days, there were pistols made for cyclists that fired "dog rounds". This was probably a small caliber round just big enough to dispatch a bow-wow without doing too much damage to bystanders. I've always thought that ratshot in a compact .22 might be good for dogs, but haven't tried it. Gun laws are a bit convoluted and strange.
Rick
cornucopia72
In the area where we live, a good % of crashes involve dogs and other domestic animals. A few months back, a large cat darted in front of a pace line. The animal hit the front wheel of a rider, clipping him. Other riders scramble not to fall. The poor guy is just getting his confidence and shape back after a long recovery with a broken collar bone.
When we go out by ourselves, Rocio usually carries a Halt canister. The dogs that she succesfully squirts in the eyes no longer chase us. On the contrary, they see us coming and they go back to their yards in a hurry. For obvious reasons, we never use the Halt when ridding with a group.
djembob02
I haven't tried any of the deterants such as ammonia or Halt, but after reading all of these on BF as well as hobbes, I'm thinking I better be prepared.
Currently, my strategy is to slow way down. I have found that the many dogs who have chased me are far less likely to chase if I am going slow. I have not been bit yet, or ran into, but then again, I've only been riding for 2 years.
Whether big or small. As soon as I see a dog not a leash, I slow down. Then I usually pass with little more than a look.
zonatandem
Our statement "if you invade animals' territory they'll defend it" is definitely true.
It does not mean that you can't fight back!
While some towns/areas have leash laws, many do not.
When dogs chase/attack your 'dogdrenalin' better kick in good! Sometimes you can pedal away but the dog thinks you are afraid and will persue; having aimed the tandem/bike at a charging dog changes the battle lines, he now becomes the persued!
While there is no sure-fire way to avoid dogs, there are a multitude of ways to break up their attention. Yelling 'get off the couch' sometimes works, but you'll never know unless you try it!
twilkins9076
For what it's worth, I have been concerned for a while now, that one of the biggest dangers facing cyclists/tandem teams is the occasional loose dog that we all encounter. While we have never been bitten, the unpredictable nature of the animals is difficult to deal with, and I certainly don't want to crash with my stoker because of a dog.
We had a stupid border collie start chasing us last spring along our morning route. Every time it would see us, it would do it's best to annoy us and no amount of yelling or water squirts would make the dog give up it's game. Unfortunately, as time passed, the dog got more and more bold until we finally hit it on our tandem at about 20 mph. The stupid animal tried to circle in front of us, and our front wheel rolled right over it's hind leg just below the hip and the back wheel passed over the same leg between the knee joint and the ankle. As we rode away, we could see the animal limping away on three legs. We never saw the dog again, and concluded that we had broken it's leg and it's owners had put it down rather than pay the vet bill. We felt very fortunate that we had managed to keep the Burley upright (by luck..not superior bike handling skills), and bought a can of Halt for next time. We've not had to use it yet.
On the other hand, over Thanksgiving weekend, a stinking little dachshund darted out from behind a parked car as I was entering our subdivision after a ride on my single. I literally didn't see the thing coming, and had no time to react before it was under my front wheel after it misjudged it's own abilities. I crashed hard and broke my collar bone. Unfortunately, the dog was barely scraped and certainly didn't suffer as much for it's foolishness as I did.
After that crash, Pam and I discussed how we could handle future encounters with dogs, and concluded that about the only thing we can do is to be observant, and when we have the chance, try and hit them in the face with our Halt. We decided that there is always going to be some element of risk in cycling, and that animals are part of that risk. In spite of that, we are going to continue enjoying our sport, and keep our fingers crossed that we don't have any more incidents like those two.
zonatandem
In our decades of tandeming, stoker Kay was bitten once. Dog's tooth scraped her leg but did not puncture skin. This is way back in the 70s when we were still pedaling IP. Since we've been pedaling OOP she has not been bitten again. Coincidence? Or do those OOP goofy-footed spinning legs confuse the canines?
CGinOhio
IMO, each situation (and dog) is different. If dog has the angle on you, best to stop pedaling (like most predators they go for movement) and brake hard to stop. Chase off said dog. With force if necessary. This also discourages dog from going after next cyclist. Most are not truly vicious. I would be very hesitant to recommend swinging legs, pumps, or other items at a dog while moving. Especially for newer cyclists. The risk of losing control and falling is much more likely caused by the cyclist(s) themselves. Most cyclist, even very experienced ones, don't have the handling skills to pull off a good swing and still control their bike. If you do have the bike skills of Stewart O'Grady, then go ahead and swing, kick, or headbutt the beast, otherwise best to keep all limbs connected to the bike. Tandemgeek may have had reason to employ exceptional force for his defence given the gauntlet he runs. HOWEVER, shooting a pellet gun while riding is has got to be a LAST RESORT, IMHO. Only one good thing can occur (repel dog) using this method, but I can envision a hundred bad things can go wrong.
No, I'm not a dog owner or animal lover per se. But I have experience with guns, and shooting even low velocity pellets/BBs in residential areas while on a bike is bad news.
Hermes
In our decades of tandeming, stoker Kay was bitten once. Dog's tooth scraped her leg but did not puncture skin. This is way back in the 70s when we were still pedaling IP. Since we've been pedaling OOP she has not been bitten again. Coincidence? Or do those OOP goofy-footed spinning legs confuse the canines?
:lol: Just in case you needed it; one more reason to OOP.
cornucopia72
One this we do and encourage others to do is to call out dogs even if they don't seem ready to chase. It is the same as "glass!", "gravel!", "car back!", "tracks!" etc. It just helps to have eveyone in the group aware of a potential hazard.
Ginny
Any update on John and Mary?
DBC Steve
Any update on John and Mary? Forgot to let everyone know. John was out of the ER in a matter of 2-3 hours, Mary was in the hospital for a few days and then released. As of a week ago her vision was still a bit impaired but getting better daily. John is back at work, Mary soon I think -- the doc said she needed to take off about 4 weeks, I recall.
John was back on his half bike about 4 days later. Their Speedster is at Gold Country Cyclery where Rick is taking good care of the bike. Fork is more than tweaked and was sent back to Co-Mo to check it out and replace if needed. Other damage is bolt-on parts -- the usual stuff.
Thanks again for asking. Mary is looking forward to getting back on her bike.
mrfish
Sad to hear about the accidents. I wish you all a quick recovery.
I'm glad to say I haven't had the same issues here in the UK. I find slowing down and ignoring the dog works OK. Much as I'd sometimes like to hit the dog, the issue is then that the owner goes nuts and comes after you in their car, so I'd only do it in extremis. A squirt of the water bottle is also surprisingly effective. I'd rather not go down the route of carrying something to deter the dog since once you start you're on the way towards having panniers full of kit to deal with any possible emergency and the days of fast, lightweight riding are gone.
Most dogs seem to be reasonably under control, perhaps due to tightening of laws in the UK. Laws in the UK were tightened significantly after children were mauled to death by pit bulls and other similar breeds. My understanding of the law is that if a dog bites you, its owner will be finded and the dog then must wear a muzzle in public from then on. Penalty for not wearing the muzzle or a second bite is that the dog gets put down. No second chance exists if the dog breed is pit bull or similar attack breed.
Xanti Andia
I never had a dog problem here in Argentina either, and we have little enforcement on anything that has to do with plain civility laws. Perhaps the wandering dogs get run over too often, perhaps they are more afraid of people.
Buckshot77
I actually had my first encounter with a dog just last week on my ride. I had a large dog barking like crazy at the edge of the bike path so I stepped up the pace (on a single bike) and got out of there watching to make sure he didn't follow me. I guess it bothered me that I was pretty much unprepared for it and didn't really know how to react other than try to outrun him.
Good luck with the recovery to the tandem team though!
Rick
ang1sgt
OMG! I sure won't let my wife view this thread. I've been trying to get her BACK on the tandem after a 5 year layoff due to a broken tailbone. I hope that all involved are doing better.
Chris
DBC Steve
What a wonderful thread this has been, from serious injury to recovery, advice on what to do with dogs, creative use of sidearms and water bottle cages, yelling vs. "nice dog", sprinting vs. getting off the bike, etc. On our own Davis Bike Club thread on this same subject, we even had animal rights advocates weigh in and it got pretty sticky for a while. Thanks everyone for the comments, thoughts and contributions. Let's go on to a new subject.... In a few months someone else will bring their dog story to this forum and we can point 'em to our dialogue. 31 replies, 701 reviews -- great action on an important subject.
Steve "dog, people and tandem lover" Macaulay
robmitchell
Hi, hope your friends and bike are o.k.
I hit a dog a few years ago on my single bike during a group ride. The dog ran out in the road and retreated, then ran back out again. He was then in the middle of a group of bikes and confused. I hit him dead center, got bumped off course and a friends pedal went into my spokes etc... Luckily I crashed on the side of the road. Hit the side of my face and got another concussion. (explains some of my post)
I agree with the above post on every situation is different. I slowed down and stopped once and one of two dogs bit me on the calf. I chased it thru the yard and threw stuff at it, leaving my bike in the road I was so pissed. I tried the owners door but no answer. i just let it go. Must have been a funny sight to see.
Now when I go by that house I slow down and if either dog comes out I stop and yell, no, no, bad dog and prepare to fight it. It now runs off the road from me or else it's man vs beast.
There are times you can outsprint a dog, based on the road, wind and fresh legs and the attack angle.
I would advise against this most of the time. If the dog causes a crash you will be going that much faster and cars may be factored in when you swerve or hit the animal and get bumped off course.
On the tandem, we usually slow down, yell and prepare for battle. At least if you stop you can use pepper spray, your frame pump, water bottle or even a handful of road side rocks thrown in front of the dog.
If the dog is a repeat offender, call the cops or animal control to ticket them.
I think a stand still dog bite is better than an uncontrolled crash.
I got chased a few weeks ago by a repeat offender. I hit him between the eyes with a full gatorade bottle! Then we called animal control.