"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Comments/Evals of my position?

Here are some pics from the Philly Phlyer crit. Any constructive criticism on how I can improve my position?

http://home.gwu.edu/~bdcheung/bike/pic1.jpg

http://home.gwu.edu/~bdcheung/bike/pic2.jpg

http://home.gwu.edu/~bdcheung/bike/pic3.jpg

http://home.gwu.edu/~bdcheung/bike/pic4.jpg

Your bike is too aluminumy.

not low enough.

Looks pretty good to me. Personally I'd raise the bars slighty with a longer stem and bend the elbows more. Will open up the chest more for breathing and give you more shock-absorption. Will also let you get your head lower without getting too bunched up.

not low enough.

I don't know how to get any lower. It takes some serious concentration for me to lower my torso any more, and when I do, my triceps get sore. Solution for this?

Looks great. You have a little too much curl in your lower back. You might be able to fix that by stretching your lower back for a while and moving back on yoru seat a touch.

I don't know how to get any lower. It takes some serious concentration for me to lower my torso any more, and when I do, my triceps get sore. Solution for this?

see danny's post, or get a pro-fitting, stretching, instinct, etc...

the harder it gets, the lower i try to go.

ymmv

Looks great. You have a little too much curl in your lower back. You might be able to fix that by stretching your lower back for a while and moving back on yoru seat a touch.

I've actually moved the saddle back 1cm since this crit, feels better.

Actually, the lower you go, shouldn't you be feeling it more in your biceps than you would in your triceps?

Ditch the spacers.

I don't know how to get any lower. It takes some serious concentration for me to lower my torso any more, and when I do, my triceps get sore. Solution for this?

Smaller frame, longer stem and more bar drop.

Looks great. You have a little too much curl in your lower back. You might be able to fix that by stretching your lower back for a while and moving back on yoru seat a touch.


Curl in the middle/lower back is great form. Your back acts like a spring, keeping the weight off the hands and hips rotated back like you have makes for more efficient use of lower back muscles for pedalling.

I'd say you have very good form. Lower the stem for more aero position? If you are riding crits, it probably won't matter and in fact some riders like a more upright position because they can make more power sprinting out of the saddle.

Can't tell from the pictures about your saddle height.

If you feel comfortable with this set-up, leave it. Nothing wrong and many things that are good with your present style.

I don't know how to get any lower. It takes some serious concentration for me to lower my torso any more, and when I do, my triceps get sore. Solution for this?Part of the reason your triceps gets sore is that they upper-arms are vertical already. If you get your shoulders any lower, your upper-arms will actually aim backwards and you'll use your triceps to carry the weight of the upper body. A longer stem lets you keep the upper-arms aimed forwards when you're low.

Here's a picture of Lance at the 2000 TDF. Note the side-stripe on the jersey is close to horizontal and parallel with the ground & top-tube, yet the upper-arms are still arimed foward:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e346/DannoXYZ/Cycling/Lance2000tdf.jpg

Other racers with their upper arms aimed forwards:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e346/DannoXYZ/Cycling/Lemond90.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e346/DannoXYZ/Cycling/MarioScirea.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e346/DannoXYZ/Cycling/GeorgeHincapie.jpg

Here some collegiate racing at Irvine, Stanford and SLO.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e346/DannoXYZ/Cycling/UCSB-cycling/IrvineCrit2b.jpg
Note the two guys in back are blocking more wind and will have more sore shoulders and back due to more road-shock coming through the locked elbows.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e346/DannoXYZ/Cycling/UCSB-cycling/StanfordCrit1s.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e346/DannoXYZ/Cycling/UCSB-cycling/CP-SLOcrit1s.jpg

Having the back straight relieves a lot of strain in the lower-back muscles. It also opens up the chest for easier breathing. Does require some upper-body strength, so you might want to work on the shoulders and triceps in the gym.


Before...
http://home.gwu.edu/~bdcheung/bike/pic3.jpg

After with 30-40mm longer stem, 10-20mm higher handlebars, 20-30mm lower shoulders...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e346/DannoXYZ/Cycling/pic3b.jpg

I'd start with a 10-20mm longer stem. Good luck! :)

EDIT: You'll also want to incorporate stretching and back-strengthening exercises on the roman-chair as mentioned here: Developing a more agressive possistion (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=279234). It'll take some time like 1-year+ to do it. As Richard mentioned, you'll want to practice it in training.

that's some fancy photoshopping. Thanks for the tips, I'll try it out.

bd, I have a Shimano compact crankset that needs a new home. PM me if you are interested.

ReedZ: Thanks, but I'm looking for anything but shimano (since my new Q-Rings are not shimano compatible :()

That's why I have it sitting in a closet, I've gone all Campy. :)

All this talk of position on the bike, and my daughter caught a good shot of me on the hoods from a good side shot this weekend. 120mm stem, two 5mm spacers above, no spacers below. Take your shots!

http://www.cycleiwakuni.com/position.gif

^^ frame looks too small.

not sure if you want to, or if your back could handle it, but you could lower, and lengthen the stem.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e346/DannoXYZ/Cycling/MarioScirea.jpg

anybody else notice that Bettini seems to have caught a whiff of something he didn't like?

^^^^^
Hahaha

Never heard "too small". (of course, in Japan I get all sorts of looks from the size of my ride: 61cm 2005 Roubaix, 60cm top tube Center/Center)

I have been thinking about getting lower with a steeper angled/longer stem. I used to have a 130mm stem on but the reach was just getting to me. Maybe I'll go back to the 130mm and a couple degrees lower for a weekend of riding this weekend.

Never heard "too small". (of course, in Japan I get all sorts of looks from the size of my ride: 61cm 2005 Roubaix, 60cm top tube Center/Center)

I have been thinking about getting lower with a steeper angled/longer stem. I used to have a 130mm stem on but the reach was just getting to me. Maybe I'll go back to the 130mm and a couple degrees lower for a weekend of riding this weekend.

try lower first.

All this talk of position on the bike, and my daughter caught a good shot of me on the hoods from a good side shot this weekend. 120mm stem, two 5mm spacers above, no spacers below. Take your shots!

Can you comfortably ride in the drops and bend your elbows? If not, your bars may actually be too low, if you get my drift.

--Steve

I don't know how to get any lower. It takes some serious concentration for me to lower my torso any more, and when I do, my triceps get sore. Solution for this?

If your arms/shoulders/back hurt you are not balanced on the saddle and are too far forward. You should be able to ride no hands with your back flat and hold that position without undue discomfort.

Check out this article by Steve Hog. http://www.cyclefitcentre.com/pdf%20final%20docs/backyard%20positioning_julu_aug_2004.pdf

Pay special attention to the portion about fore-aft saddle position.

It's a better riding position than most people seem to have. It's amazing the number of people you see at a race who never go into the drops once.

I'm also looking for an evaluation of my fit. I just need to wait for someone to get a picture of me at the right time for now.

It's amazing the number of people you see at a race who never go into the drops once.


im one of those

Check out this article by Steve Hog. http://www.cyclefitcentre.com/pdf%20final%20docs/backyard%20positioning_julu_aug_2004.pdf

Pay special attention to the portion about fore-aft saddle position.

After going through the article, I realized my seat was too far forward. I couldn't take my hands off the drops without falling forward. I've moved it back now, and can stay balanced for a couple seconds before tipping forward. Does my seat need to come back more?

After going through the article, I realized my seat was too far forward. I couldn't take my hands off the drops without falling forward. I've moved it back now, and can stay balanced for a couple seconds before tipping forward. Does my seat need to come back more?

I would try moving it further back. When your fore-aft is right you have very little weight on your hands when in the drops.

If one has to move the seat back too much to get proper balance, would that suggest that the frame may be the wrong size?

I would try moving it further back. When your fore-aft is right you have very little weight on your hands when in the drops.

Is this because the force of pedaling helps support the torso? I moved my seat back but (and I haven't accurately measured this) it seems like I am behind KOPS now... won't be able to determine if this is detrimental to power output until I can get some good riding in (today is a scheduled rest day)>

Is this because the force of pedaling helps support the torso? I moved my seat back but (and I haven't accurately measured this) it seems like I am behind KOPS now... won't be able to determine if this is detrimental to power output until I can get some good riding in (today is a scheduled rest day)>


Not to hijack the thread, but on a related note, do most people ride with KOPS? Is there any reason to stick with that vs. some other fit method? I've seen a fair number of people riding behind it but not sure if that was a conscious thing or if it just ended up that way. Just wondering if there is a reason to go behind it at all.

If one has to move the seat back too much to get proper balance, would that suggest that the frame may be the wrong size?

yep.

Not to hijack the thread, but on a related note, do most people ride with KOPS? Is there any reason to stick with that vs. some other fit method? I've seen a fair number of people riding behind it but not sure if that was a conscious thing or if it just ended up that way. Just wondering if there is a reason to go behind it at all.

There are many "fit philosophies" that span the gamut between "KOPS is the way to go" and "KOPS sucks". Frankly, I started at KOPS and tried positions that put me forward and rearward of it. I'm more comfortable rearward of KOPS, as I find my glutes and hamstrings are under-utilized at and forward of KOPS.

Steve says KOPS is just a guideline. The more important test is the balance test. I don't think the force of pedaling helps you support your torso--it should be easier to balance without pedaling. It's more about core strength and lower back flexibility. You don't need to be able to balance there forever. I think he recommends finding that line where you can just keep yourself from immediately falling on your face.

A comment from Steve Hogg in response to a question about KOPS: (at http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=2004/letters08-09 )

"I started out in the bike game 17 years ago believing all of the proportional based stuff was the way to go because most of the info available suggests that approach. It was only by trying to put it into practice on a money back if not happy basis, that I realised that approach had no basis in fact. To answer your next question. I couldn't tell you where the knee of anyone who I position is in relation to the pedal axle statically. I don't think it is relevant. Firstly, seat height needs to be such that the rider can reach through the bottom of the stroke with power and control under reasonable load. Next, any asymmetries of pelvic function need to be addressed by twisting the seat and / or building up various areas of seat. Next, seat set back needs to be such that the rider can support the majority of their weight after taking their hands off the drops while pedaling in a reasonably hard gear. Teetering is fine, collapsing onto the bars or noticeably arching the back to prevent collapsing is not. Next, sort the cleat position fore and aft. If this requires a large change, seat height and fore and aft position may need to be changed somewhat. Then take care of any knee tracking issues. Next, position the bars and brake hoods so they can be reached with ease in the various hand positions and so that when on the drops the neck is not using more than I would guess, 85% of its range of movement to allow the rider to see forward. Somewhere along the way, any leg length asymmetries of function or measurement need to be addressed. It all sounds easy doesn't it? I wish.

How can you judge whether you have got it right? Apart from the huff and puff of exertion, riding at pace should feel easy. There should be no sensation of 'fighting' the bike. Power should be generated from the hips down. The torso should be used almost exclusively for breathing and there should be no more tension in the arms and shoulders than is necessary to steer and control the bike. Post hard ride there should be no dead lactic feeling in the quads even if running up and downstairs. All of the upper leg musculature should feel tired but this shouldn't feel localised. If you can achieve this you are pretty close to the mark.

Above all remember that performance cycling is actually 3 sports, and of those, riding the bike has the least priority. The other two sports?

Sleeping and stretching. If you are adequately rested and have adequate function [most people don't] the rest is easy."

not low enough.
incorrect. Stick to P-shopping...lol.



Looks great. You have a little too much curl in your lower back. You might be able to fix that by stretching your lower back for a while and moving back on yoru seat a touch.

A bit of curl in the lower back is common. It worked OK for Lance.



see danny's post, or get a pro-fitting, stretching, instinct, etc...

the harder it gets, the lower i try to go.

ymmv
Pro-fitting? Maybe. Stretching? Incorrect...OP is very flexible.
Instinct? Huh?



Curl in the middle/lower back is great form. Your back acts like a spring, keeping the weight off the hands and hips rotated back like you have makes for more efficient use of lower back muscles for pedalling.

I'd say you have very good form. Lower the stem for more aero position? If you are riding crits, it probably won't matter and in fact some riders like a more upright position because they can make more power sprinting out of the saddle.

Can't tell from the pictures about your saddle height.

If you feel comfortable with this set-up, leave it. Nothing wrong and many things that are good with your present style.
+1
Saddle looks a bit high to me...a bit overextended at 6 o'clock.


Lastly, Danno nailed it. No surprise because he is one of the most knowledgable cyclists here. Other then that some good and bad advice given but afterall, this is the internet. :eek: You mentioned you can’t get much lower. You shouldn’t have to as you are already very aero. Danno has the flexiblilty of a dancer which few do so don’t try to emulate his postion exactly but his good eye caught your fit issue.
When your torso rotates forward into position there is an angle that your upper arm makes to your torso. Structurally if this angle is less then 90 degrees, then your arms and triceps in particular will have to do unnecessary work to control your upper body. What do all the great riders shown have in common? Look at the pics. This angle is 90 degrees or slightly wider for every rider. This is because as your weight distribution changes frequently fore/aft on your bike, in profile this is a more stable pyramid. Currently with your reach you are crowded and can’t support your upper body comfortably with the amount of torso angle you can achieve which is substantial putting your arms needlessly in compression versus a balance between tension and compression.
A good way to think about it is...your arms are like a suspension bridge and need to be balanced. Forces on your arms are reduced by starting with your weight positioned with correctly positioned body CG relative to the BB.
A longer stem is in order and your call as to drop from saddle to handlebars which looks quite low the way it is.
HTH,
George

incorrect. Stick to P-shopping...lol.

incorrect.

incorrect.
brilliant and insightful (incite-full) as usual!
In fact, you couldn't be more wrong.

brilliant and insightful (incite-full) as usual!

correct


In fact, you couldn't be more wrong.

incorrect.

I am a troll.
correct.

correct.

"lol"

lol in another forum i visit on occasion, you can be banned for being a "sh1tty poster". botto takes the cake.

lol in another forum i visit on occasion, you can be banned for being a "sh1tty poster". botto takes the cake.

and i eat it too.

http://www.5ive-o.org/forum/images/smilies/fight.gifhttp://www.5ive-o.org/forum/images/smilies/extra4/duel[1].gif

lol in another forum i visit on occasion, you can be banned for being a "sh1tty poster". botto takes the cake.
In another forum I post on you can be banned for mentioning another forum's guidlines.

Sounds like there might be a few minor things to work on, but my take is your overall position looks more relaxed and fitted than many riders and racers out there.

^^ frame looks too small.

The two rules of bike racing position on BF:

1.) A frame can never be 'too small' (I can just see Botto, The Cypress and others rolling on the floor in hysteria over that comment)

2.) When in doubt, flip it.

I would have expected you to know these by heart by now B.D.

The quiz at the end of this thread will count for 20% of your final grade by the way. You need to lower that stem and get a bit longer on your bike in my opinion. And if nothing else that will get you closer to Patentcad's #1 Rule of Cycling:

1.) It is better to LOOK like a pro than to ride like a pro.

Longer stem, saddle higher. But most of all those red gloves :eek: