Vehicular Cycling (VC) - I rode VC today

Excellent idea oh grand poobah administrator. I think you should address issues of concern.


Hmmm. As the forum admin, I should really be addressing issues of concern, not ignoring them. And you still don't see the error?

You need and require a bike lane???? .... please learn to ride the bicycle your poor misguided soul (sig recently edited to reflect political correctness)

Nothing shows maturity quite like a good mocking. Makes me really appreciate my decision to volunteer for a position that will leave me both under-appreciated and abused on a regular basis. I care about the forums, its members, and guests. You do not.

Good on ya! When I made the original post, I was trying to picture the kind of person that might be lurking, just looking for info, but had not registered yet. The kind that would be most easily offended by a sig like that.

Before I finished typing my response, I realized it was time to go pick up my wife from work, so I didn't get to complete my thoughts. And since I've already been quoted, I guess it's too late to go back and edit my post. ;)

You're forgiven, Brian. :)

OTOH, Galen's sig isn't nearly as offensive as many of the crude and deliberate insults posted here on a regular basis. If you're concerned with making the forums welcoming to a broad population of potential users, I suggest that might be a more critical concern.

You're forgiven, Brian. :)

OTOH, Galen's sig isn't nearly as offensive as many of the crude and deliberate insults posted here on a regular basis. If you're concerned with making the forums welcoming to a broad population of potential users, I suggest that might be a more critical concern.

Like this from post #26?


I oppose your inability to understand written English.

That is just rude, offensive and unnecessary.

Like this from post #26?

That is just rude, offensive and unnecessary.

Agreed.

It doesn't, however, come close to being as rude and offensive as much of what is posted here. Further, you might consider the level of frustration HH is likely to feel, having been the target of a great deal of the nastiness here for some time.

As you probably know from your work, sometimes, victims of abuse strike back.

I can accept the fact that HH is going to react to other member's comments in that manner. Just as I can accept the fact that chipcom is going to post something cheeky for the sake of being a smartass. And ILTB is going to make it perfectly clear which side of the fence he sits on. But I don't see why we should put up with a sig that is patently offensive to cyclists.

48 hours with no complaints about Pete. Could that be a new record?

I can accept the fact that HH is going to react to other member's comments in that manner. Just as I can accept the fact that chipcom is going to post something cheeky for the sake of being a smartass. And ILTB is going to make it perfectly clear which side of the fence he sits on.

Honestly, Brian, your characterization of Chip's attacks as "cheeky" and ILTB's as merely making something "perfectly clear" are so far from reality as to make me wonder what you haven't been reading here.

Eventually, you and Joe are going to have to decide what sort of site you want to have. If it's one where virtual hooliganism runs rampant, you're well on your way. On the other hand, if you want to both appeal to a broader audience and improve the quality of the material posted here, you'll have to make some real changes. Serious people, interested in serious, thoughtful discussion, won't hang around forever.

I rather suspect that most of them won't (and don't) even register.

I shall remember next time to use the [sarcasm] tags.

I normally avoid A&S and P&R, as they both bring out the worst in otherwise pleasant members.

I oppose your inability to understand written English.

That is just rude, offensive and unnecessary.
You're right. My bad.

But it was stated in response to, and in this spirit of, this: "I oppose the way VC zealots come off on these boards."

Referring to someone as a zealot isn't exactly complementary.

I shall remember next time to use the [sarcasm] tags.

Maybe that would help some of us with a tendency to take writing literally. :)


I normally avoid A&S and P&R, as they both bring out the worst in otherwise pleasant members.

Well, I never visit P&R, but A&S doesn't have to be that way, and the fact that it is that way reflects negatively on the forums in general.

I rode VC today in bike lanes.

Honestly, Brian, your characterization of Chip's attacks as "cheeky" and ILTB's as merely making something "perfectly clear" are so far from reality as to make me wonder what you haven't been reading here.

Eventually, you and Joe are going to have to decide what sort of site you want to have. If it's one where virtual hooliganism runs rampant, you're well on your way. On the other hand, if you want to both appeal to a broader audience and improve the quality of the material posted here, you'll have to make some real changes. Serious people, interested in serious, thoughtful discussion, won't hang around forever.

I rather suspect that most of them won't (and don't) even register.
I rather suspect the kallierrgo brand of "Serious people, interested in serious, thoughtful discussion":rolleyes: would consist of a group think/circle hug amongst kallierrgo, galen, joejack, HH, DC, and our other new new thoughtful poster JF, and perhaps a few other "Serious People".:eek: All others with a different version of reality and truth will be held in contempt by the "Serious People" and ignored, just like they do the desires/interests of the majority of cyclists (i.e hooligans.:rolleyes: )

Nothing shows maturity quite like a good mocking. Makes me really appreciate my decision to volunteer for a position that will leave me both under-appreciated and abused on a regular basis. I care about the forums, its members, and guests. You do not.

Nobody forced you to mod. If you can't take the heat.......? I too care about the forums, it's members and guests. I just don't appreciate the mods being stacked with heavy-handed bike-lane zealots, who look the other way when it is their cronies who are always the first to stoop to insult and dispense 99% of the venomous personal attacks on these boards.

I can accept the fact that HH is going to react to other member's comments in that manner. Just as I can accept the fact that chipcom is going to post something cheeky for the sake of being a smartass. And ILTB is going to make it perfectly clear which side of the fence he sits on. But I don't see why we should put up with a sig that is patently offensive to cyclists.

They way I look at it Brian, I don't think anyone will be offended by a sig, rather they will get a good first impression of the person using it.

Referring to someone as a zealot isn't exactly complementary.

I'd say that you and I are on fairly good terms lately, so please don't get mad at me when I point out that zealot is neither derogatory nor inaccurate in this case.


Nobody forced you to mod. If you can't take the heat.......? I too care about the forums, it's members and guests. I just don't appreciate the mods being stacked with heavy-handed bike-lane zealots, who look the other way when it is their cronies who are always the first to stoop to insult and dispense 99% of the venomous personal attacks on these boards.

"If you can't take the heat". I love that! I get that all the time too. It's kind of like a thinly disguised apology for being a jerk. But the mod team is not "Stacked with heavy-handed bike-lane zealots", as you state. There are 2 mods that really take an interest in A&S, and their main concern is to stop the arguing, not to promote one side or the other.

Honestly, Brian, your characterization of Chip's attacks as "cheeky" and ILTB's as merely making something "perfectly clear" are so far from reality as to make me wonder what you haven't been reading here.

Eventually, you and Joe are going to have to decide what sort of site you want to have. If it's one where virtual hooliganism runs rampant, you're well on your way. On the other hand, if you want to both appeal to a broader audience and improve the quality of the material posted here, you'll have to make some real changes. Serious people, interested in serious, thoughtful discussion, won't hang around forever.

I rather suspect that most of them won't (and don't) even register.

No pal, actually it's pretty apparent that you have not been around very long, and that all you know about is one little slice of time in A&S and virtually nothing about the rest of BF. Just because you don't have thick enough skin to take what you dish out, nor a sense of humor, is your problem, not a problem with the mods, A&S or the BF community as a whole.

I seem to recall asking you 4 questions in the JF thread, to which your response was something like 'that is nonresponsive' then you pretended to have me on ignore from there on out. Of course you didn't have me on ignore, you just didn't want to answer the questions and hid behind your usual cry of 'ABUSE, OH MY', as an excuse not to. Yeah, there's honest debate and respect for others. Your treatment of good people in these forums is far more arrogant and abusive than anything you accuse me of, so forgive me if I don't get all sappy over your crocodile tears.

Tell you what, if you are so convinced that you have the moral high ground and that I am such a bully and have no value...post a poll asking the members to vote between you and me - phrase it however you want, do your best to rig it to your advantage. There is my challenge to you. Let's see if your opinion is shared by the rest of the members....you don't have a problem with that, do you?

Nobody forced you to mod. If you can't take the heat.......? I too care about the forums, it's members and guests. I just don't appreciate the mods being stacked with heavy-handed bike-lane zealots, who look the other way when it is their cronies who are always the first to stoop to insult and dispense 99% of the venomous personal attacks on these boards.

Uhh, hey HH and Kal...if you are offended by the term zealot, why aren't you speaking out against its use in this post? Selective offense syndrome perhaps?

I'm not offended by it Galen, of course I'm not a bike-lane zealot...am I? Be honest, dude, I can take it. :eek:

I'm not offended by it Galen, of course I'm not a bike-lane zealot...am I? Be honest, dude, I can take it. :eek:

No, No, No, Chip....you are NOT a zealot. Kind of wishy washy like most politicians (patronizing the masses publicly when you know what they ask for won't help them while behaving like those who know better in private). But other than that you OK wif me!!!:p :p

Eventually, you and Joe are going to have to decide what sort of site you want to have. If it's one where virtual hooliganism runs rampant, you're well on your way. On the other hand, if you want to both appeal to a broader audience and improve the quality of the material posted here, you'll have to make some real changes. Serious people, interested in serious, thoughtful discussion, won't hang around forever.

I rather suspect that most of them won't (and don't) even register.

Anyone else here see a remarkable similarity between the above syntax, and JF's?
We talkin' hive mind, or out of body channeling, tag team forumizing, flouridization of the drinking water, fluids Mandrake, what?

No, No, No, Chip....you are NOT a zealot. Kind of wishy washy like most politicians (patronizing the masses publicly when you know what they ask for won't help them while behaving like those who know better in private). But other than that you OK wif me!!!:p :p

Whew, so I'm just a slimy politician, for a minute there I was worried. :D

Anyone else here see a remarkable similarity between the above syntax, and JF's?
We talkin' hive mind, or out of body channeling, tag team forumizing, flouridization of the drinking water, fluids Mandrake, what?
Group think/circle hugging? That's my take on this gang of "Serious People" and their desire/claim for ownership of all "Serious Discussion."

Ref: my previous post#64 http://75.126.17.36/showpost.php?p=4081858&postcount=64

I was cycling vehicularly this Sunday and stopped at the stop sign. The guy behind me was driving his car cycliarly and blew that sign. It was very stupid of him. The police officer caught him. I glanced back to make sure that police officer is busy with the driver and blew the next stop sign. It felt so good!
Did the driver use the opposing (wrong way) lane to pass you while blowing the light?
Al

Did the driver use the opposing (wrong way) lane to pass you while blowing the light?
Al
In Philadelphia the standard vehicular maneuver for motorists behind a bicyclist in the rightmost through lane at a traffic light and/or intersection was to pass like a jack rabbit on the right in the no parking/bus stop zone at the intersection and/or right turn lane if available and swerve back into the through lane on the other side of the intersection. Guaranteed almost every intersection for those cyclists who want to position themselves IAW VC dogma.

In Philadelphia the standard vehicular maneuver for motorists behind a bicyclist in the rightmost through lane at a traffic light and/or intersection was to pass like a jack rabbit on the right in the no parking/bus stop zone at the intersection and/or right turn lane if available and swerve back into the through lane on the other side of the intersection. Guaranteed almost every intersection for those cyclists who want to position themselves IAW VC dogma.

Were you the cyclist using the rightmost through lane getting passed in the turn lanes? Virtually all cyclists I see in Philly are curb huggers regardless of road striping. FWIW, while riding in grand dogmatic VC style (according to ILTB at least) this has happened to me once in Philly and countless times in the rich suburbs commuting to work.

Were you the cyclist using the rightmost through lane getting passed in the turn lanes? Virtually all cyclists I see in Philly are curb huggers regardless of road striping. FWIW, while riding in grand dogmatic VC style (according to ILTB at least) this has happened to me once in Philly and countless times in the rich suburbs commuting to work.
I learned early my lesson about being recklessly passed on the right and adapted accordingly; placed myself in the streets as best as possible to prevent being passed on the right by jack rabbit jerks. That was the greatest danger at city street intersections as far as I was concerned.

I don't doubt your observations that this dangerous passing stunt is common in the suburbs too.

As you point out, cyclists do ride on the lateral street segment where they want, regardless of paint; putting to lie all the baloney of others about the evil influence of bike paint on cyclist choice of lateral placement at intersections.

I've been passed on right by a driver going straight a total of three times - all times at the exact same intersection. Being so far left biased in WOL can result in this. I find it rude, but not a danger. All three (or certainly 2/3 times) I anticipated it would happen based on driver behavior (not turning right when x-traffic was clear, driver not turning wheels and not looking left)

Here is one instance:
youtube UUUj2iAg47M - Left biased in lane at intersection to let drivers turn rt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUUj2iAg47M)

Just uploaded the two other instances:
youtube pe7R63OtV5s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe7R63OtV5s)
youtube.com 4ZI91pjISOU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZI91pjISOU)

To avoid this I still left bias (to allow the right turning majority to turn right as a courtesy) but not as much so the right turners have to squeeze by with right wheels close to curb. Often I have to point to pavement next to me if they have right turn signal on so they pull forward and turn.


Al

I don't get worked up over sidepath ordinances, since it appears that Cary, NC is the only place in the US that is building them in urban areas, or at least certain individuals there have a fixation on describing sidewalks as sidepaths.

As a visible advocate for cyclists in my area, I receive complaints from area cyclists about inappropriate police actions and about harassment incidents related to cycling on the roadway next to sidepaths. As I consider it appropriate - no, imperitive - to take action to reduce these incidents in order to improve cyclists' experiences.

You've got to be kidding if you think that new sidepath construction is limited to a few places. Many suburbs are treating sidewalk bicycle paths as their defacto bikeways, since it can be done more cheaply than improving the roadway, and because they don't have many pedestrians on their sidewalks to complain.

Spartanburg, South Carolina recently built a sidepath called the "Pride Trail" alongside Pine Street south of downtown. At one end, the sidewalk branches into an asphalt path (the "trail") while continuing as a standard sidewalk right beside it. The asphalt "trail" weaves back and forth like a sine wave next to the straight sidewalk. Path designers call this "meandering" but done this way it looks hysterical. The path continues like this for a little less than a mile, I think, before merging back into the sidewalk. Ironically, due to the sinusoidal shape of the path, I think the straight adjacent sidewalk is more "usable" for bicycling than the "Pride Trail".

South Carolina has a statewide ban on roadway cycling if there is a "usable" path adjacent to the road.

My in-laws live in Spartanburg, and coincidentally, Spartanburg is in pursuit of the same LAB Bicycle Friendly Community status that Cary obtained. Spartanburg is hosting an LCI training seminar this weekend, which I am attending. I wonder if the issue of vehicular cycling on the roadway versus complying with the sidepath law will come up during the LCI seminar, and if Spartanburg will take any special legal action to protect the rights of cyclists who use the roadway. It is my understanding that LAB won't look kindly on assigning BFC status to any city with a mandatory sidepath-use law in effect.

I tried vehicular cycling today as well, at least till I got to my rural road, then i hugged the right, since the speed limit is 55 (with VERY few cars passing). It worked fairly well and no one honked at me, even on a COLLEGE CAMPUS. I was quite shocked. I got the usual pull-out-in-front of-me even-though-im-going-over-the-speed-limit-people. When will they learn?

I tried vehicular cycling today as well, at least till I got to my rural road, then i hugged the right, since the speed limit is 55 (with VERY few cars passing). It worked fairly well and no one honked at me, even on a COLLEGE CAMPUS. I was quite shocked. I got the usual pull-out-in-front of-me even-though-im-going-over-the-speed-limit-people. When will they learn?
Did you continuously hug the right or did you only move right for faster rear approaching vehicles on the 55mph road?
If you noted faster rear approaching vehicles, did any move left before you thought it best to move right?
Al

I learned early my lesson about being recklessly passed on the right and adapted accordingly; placed myself in the streets as best as possible to prevent being passed on the right by jack rabbit jerks. That was the greatest danger at city street intersections as far as I was concerned.

I have yet to find a position that will always stop them but I've given up worrying about it, at least in regards to my own safety. My concern is for the poor soul who pulls up too far at the cross street and gets tagged by one of these idiots passing on the right. But, at least it won't be me getting hit by the guy who pulled up too far. If you have any advice from what you've learned over the years about how to discourage this, I'm listening.


I don't doubt your observations that this dangerous passing stunt is common in the suburbs too.

Seems more common in the suburbs for me than in the city simply because of roadway speeds. Too much effort for some to slow down a bit while I cross the intersection.


As you point out, cyclists do ride on the lateral street segment where they want, regardless of paint; putting to lie all the baloney of others about the evil influence of bike paint on cyclist choice of lateral placement at intersections.

Without any encouragement to do otherwise, I don't think most cyclists would change their ways regarding lane position even without the paint. Bike lanes encourage that lane position though and give others encouragement to tell me where I should be riding as well. I'd like to think that after some thinking about the situation, most cyclists would see the reasoning behind not hugging the curb through the intersection (again, without the constant reminder that they should be hugging the curb a.k.a. the bike lane). In a perfect world, the idea would catch on with other cyclists without encouragement simply because they see others doing it.

I rode VC today. there was a clean and clear bike lane for a stretch, and i rode VC in the bike lane. later in the ride, I rode VC in another bike lane. I passed intersections and parked cars while riding in the bike lane.

I never had to leave the first bike lane for any safety reason, and left the second bike lane on one occasion while riding VC in the bike lane- a car was backing and parking up ahead of me, so I left the bike lane for about 100 feet. I reentered the bike lane and continued riding VC in the bike lane.

you can ride VC in a bike lane, despite the protestations of the 'can't quite figure it out' chestbeater's club.

No you can't, Bek. You are deluding yourself. You should never ride in the death lane unless some fsdt behind doesn't indicate they've noticed you, and only after flapping your arms, and weaving for a spell, in the very last few seconds, ONLY THEN, is the bike lane safe, but EVEN SO, you've now drifted into being a non-VC cyclist so you better say 10 Hail John's, go home and cleans yourself with scalding water and a wire brush.

Here is an example of cycling vehicularly inncluding using arm signals and looking back before merging.

Traffic is slower than normal due to construction.

youtube QXfbYDTAgh4 - Bike Lane Closed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXfbYDTAgh4)

Al

Just a thought, but what if I'm on my beach cruiser, and want to ride at a leisurely 10-12MPH?

Just a thought, but what if I'm on my beach cruiser, and want to ride at a leisurely 10-12MPH?

Why do you hate America?

Just a thought, but what if I'm on my beach cruiser, and want to ride at a leisurely 10-12MPH?

go to the beach

Why do you hate America?

OMG, :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Why do you hate America?

Hey, I came back, ok?


go to the beach

That was much easier to do when I lived at the beach, in Australia.

Just a thought, but what if I'm on my beach cruiser, and want to ride at a leisurely 10-12MPH?

What if I'm towing a big load on my trailer and can only manage 10-15mph on the flats? I ride VC and people behind me have to slow down a bit further. I'm able to move right into shorter areas of wide pavement and can allow more motorists to pass quicker due to my slower speed. Motorists need a shorter distance of clear pavement ahead to pass me. I'll ride on a narrower, rougher shoulder (after getting motorists to slow down first of course) because I'm going slower.

I went out for a ride today and decided (based on the arguments here) to try out VC by staying in my little town with it's 25-35 MPH speed limits, residential streets and small, typical mid-western 2 block downtown area. I wanted to try out strictly vehicular cycling for an hour.

I have to gloat a bit about how nice the people in my town were. No one honked, no one buzzed me, no one yelled out their windows or tried to right hook me and no one tailgated me.
Exactly.