"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Forced vs. Voluntary Upgrades--Opinions?

I don't know what got me started pondering this, but I just started thinking about the issue of when to upgrade, etc. I mean, there are Cat 5's who seem to have been there forever, and I know that it's not unheard of at all for cat 4's to stay 4's despite having enough points to upgrade, or have the 25 pack finishes needed for the 4-3 upgrade.

What are everyone's thoughts on this? Should USAC take a more active role in upgrading people when they have enough races/points, or would that just take away from the fun of racing?

Personally, I feel like the highly experienced 5's, i.e. 20-plus races would be better off in the 4's, and I do feel some frustration with the odd sandbagger, but how active of a role do you think the USCF should take in this? I feel like there are pros and cons both ways.

I say let the people that want to stay in the 5 stay in the 5. The reality is you dont really win anything in the 5 anyway so the sandbaggers arent really hurting anyone. If anything they might make more determined legit 5s better.

I do get frustrated thinking about how I would like to win a race before upgrading to the 4s and how much harder it might be if there are sandbaggers but then I just keep telling myself that winning in the 5s just doesnt matter.

once you get to the higher levels its different. I would be pretty pissed if there was a four who had enough points to upgrade yet continued to race and took points away from other riders that needed them to upgrade.

For the 5's, I don't really care since there are no points and you're racing for energy drinks.

For everything else, I say force the upgrade...it's hard enough to earn points for a voluntary upgrade, but with sandbaggers, it almost makes it impossible.

It's impossible to enforce without removing the 12-month points restriction. Many of the so-called Sandbagger 4s are still 4s only because they don't enter enough events in 12 months to upgrade.

--Steve

For the 5's, I don't really care since there are no points and you're racing for energy drinks.

For everything else, I say force the upgrade...it's hard enough to earn points for a voluntary upgrade, but with sandbaggers, it almost makes it impossible.

+1. I also think that if you are an elite tri-athlete or an expert mtb'er then you only get two or three races in the fives. Some of the these guys come in and race two or three races a year and slaughter the field.

there's been a HUGE problem with that here in new mexico (we're under ACA rules, not USCF, which just means there's no cat 5). the 1,2 fields have about 10-15 guys in them, the 3 fields have about 50 and the 4 fields have 30 or so for most races....what they've done is combine 1,2,3 fields to try to force-out some of the faster (read: sandbagging) 3s who should've upgraded but don't. this is the first year they've tried it and we'll see if it works. the real thing that sucks about it is that now the sandbaggers with be the 4s who won't want to upgrade and have to race with the 1s and 2s. -and yeah, all cats are scored separately in the 1,2,3 race, but it's kindof a hollow victory to podium in the 3s while still not finishing with the front group.

anyway, this whole thing would be avoided if people were forced to upgrade. but our one NM rep doesn't have the time/money/desire to keep tabs on every freakin' racers resume.

My experience is swimming (age group, high school and college). In age group swimming (AAU) there were pretty much 3 levels A, B and C. If there were not forced upgrades there would have been people staying in B or C and sucking up all the ribbons and medals. Not that those are worth anything, but the wins matter. If you get enough of them there are no wins left for anyone else.

My thought is force upgrades based on Podiums and allow upgrades based on other criteria.

Imagine a cat 5 race with 3 or 4 cat 3 riders. Now imagine you are a new rider. You just might get so intimidated/discouraged that there is no second race.

Thinking about it some more, I think the way to solve it is to make it mandatory for race organizers to submit results electronically to USACycling with NO EXCEPTIONS. That way it's not up to the local rep to enforce upgrades. A computer can do it.

According to the USACycling web site, I haven't entered a single race. This is the problem.

--Steve

^^^^^
yeah i get worried about results not showing up. Ive done 7 races and not one is listed. I hope that doesnt hurt me when I put in for an upgrade

^^ It won't. According to USAC I did 5 races last year, and I actually did 15.

5 to 4: I cant think of 1 reason for someone to stay cat 5, no forced upgrade necessary. I got no results as a 5, IMO, Cat 5 is for learning how to pin your # on, ride in a pack, go around a corner, and mostly safety/logistical stuff. Cat 4 is for learning how to get results.

4 to 3 - force the upgrade if one gets the 30 pts. in 12 mos., the lifetime achievement award upgrades for 10 top 10s or 25 pack finishes or whatever, no forced upgrade is necessary and I think where applicable, those folks should think a long while before upgrading to a 3.

3 to 2 - I'm told this is probably the biggest jump in amateur cycling as the races not only get harder, they get a lot longer, the fields are deeper, and teams are playing a much larger role. I'm a 3, and unless I have a cycling epiphany and start winning everything in site by riding away from the field, I dont plan to upgrade to a 2. I dont have the time to train adequately for the long RRs 2s do (with 1s) and can do most of them as a 3 anyway. So, my opinion here is totally self serving, but unless one is hitting that mandatory upgrade threshold, tough to do as a 3, no upgrade enforcement necessary.

2 to 1 - see 3 to 2 rationale, these guys are always racing each other anyways.

I think it would help it all results were submitted as well. I think the fives should be patrolled way more heavily. A rider that trains decently well should be able to finish in the pack in the first few races, not be instantly dropped, it is kind of discouraging to be so far behind when you are just starting out. There are cat 5's here that have tt times that land them top ten in the 1/2.. it makes it hard.

do 4/5 wins as a cat 5 go towards your 4>3 cat up points?

I'm really in no rush to cat up to 3, I'll probably have to be forced because of points before I move, but that might change as the season progresses.

The downside of sending all results electronically would be increased cost for the race organizers, especially when it comes to the smaller training series. But then again, maybe it's worth a couple extra bucks.

MDCatV brings up what I think is the real flip side of the argument. There are plenty of people in the 3's or even 4's who are reasonably competitive at that level and just don't have the time/resources/whatever to upgrade. For instance, I'm a decent cat 4 but come July I'll be hard-pressed to find the time to train to remain competitive in Cat 4, much less win races/earn points.

So I guess amateur racing would risk losing those people--the dedicated athletes who have just reached their potential within the confines of busy lives or just plain genetic/physiologic limitations. I mean, some of us just weren't born to be bike racers but love to do it anyway. It's a double-edged sword, I suppose.

The only racing experience I have is on an ATV, I raced in an endurance cross country circuit and noticed a lot of snadbagging in the entry level classes. Relating this to cycling, it is very discouraging for someone to show up to a race expecting to get other people racing against them with the same skill sets only to get destroyed by sandbaggers. I think all types of amateur racing should do a better job of leveling the playing field, otherwise the new guy getting smashed in cat 5 may not show up next season, or even the next race. Just my $.02

+1. I also think that if you are an elite tri-athlete or an expert mtb'er then you only get two or three races in the fives. Some of the these guys come in and race two or three races a year and slaughter the field.

I think an argument could be made for making these guys 4's or even 3's right out of the gate. I mean, a NORBA expert mountain biker is at least on a cat 1/2/3 level of fitness, and certainly has the bike handling skills to at least negotiate a pack.

This would be another spot where technology would help. As I understand it, there's nothing keeping a racer who was a cat 3 but let his license lapse from buying a 1-day license and destroying a Cat 5 field. Also, if Mr. expert mountain biker shows up with a USAC license that says NORBA expert, his one-day license could get bumped up to 4 or 3. Just ideas...

5 to 4: I cant think of 1 reason for someone to stay cat 5, no forced upgrade necessary. I got no results as a 5, IMO, Cat 5 is for learning how to pin your # on, ride in a pack, go around a corner, and mostly safety/logistical stuff. Cat 4 is for learning how to get results.

4 to 3 - force the upgrade if one gets the 30 pts. in 12 mos., the lifetime achievement award upgrades for 10 top 10s or 25 pack finishes or whatever, no forced upgrade is necessary and I think where applicable, those folks should think a long while before upgrading to a 3.

3 to 2 - I'm told this is probably the biggest jump in amateur cycling as the races not only get harder, they get a lot longer, the fields are deeper, and teams are playing a much larger role. I'm a 3, and unless I have a cycling epiphany and start winning everything in site by riding away from the field, I dont plan to upgrade to a 2. I dont have the time to train adequately for the long RRs 2s do (with 1s) and can do most of them as a 3 anyway. So, my opinion here is totally self serving, but unless one is hitting that mandatory upgrade threshold, tough to do as a 3, no upgrade enforcement necessary.

2 to 1 - see 3 to 2 rationale, these guys are always racing each other anyways.

I believe the point total is 20 not 30.

I agree with you about the 5>4, I think the jump from 4>3 is the hardest just due to the sudden increase in length. 3>2 if you've been able to cat up on points the pain threshold isn't going to be that much greater and you are doing the same distances as you were as a 3.

IIRC, 4-3 voluntary upgrade requires 20 points in a 12 month period, forced upgrade is 30 points.

Sandbaggers are annoying because they suck up all the prize money (read: gas money!!!), but then again they force you to get stronger to beat them and get your upgrade points. Kinda helps prepare you for the cat you're moving up to.

i don't see the point in hanging out with the 5s forever. if, for no better reason, than the fact that the racing improves as you cat up.

i'm curious when the 'X-amount of cat 4 starts equals an upgrade to 3s' started? IIRC you could only do it with points when I was working my way up.

This would be another spot where technology would help. As I understand it, there's nothing keeping a racer who was a cat 3 but let his license lapse from buying a 1-day license and destroying a Cat 5 field. Also, if Mr. expert mountain biker shows up with a USAC license that says NORBA expert, his one-day license could get bumped up to 4 or 3. Just ideas...

The guy that got second at the UMD cat 5 crit was an ex cat3. The winner was some scholarship collegiate athlete from what ive heard.

Points to upgrade per USACycling:

Road Upgrades
Guidelines and Notes by Category:
5-4: Experience in 10 mass start races that meet the criteria in the table below (qualifying races).
Local Associations may also establish policies where upgrade credit is given for taking a sanctioned rider education clinic.
4-3: 20 points in any 12-month period; or experience in 25 qualifying races with a minimum of 10 top ten finishes, or 20 pack finishes with fields over 50. 30 points in 12 months is an automatic upgrade
3-2: 25 points in any 12-month period
60 points in 12 months is an automatic upgrade
2-1: 30 points in any 12-month period
60 points in 12 months is an automatic upgrade
USA Cycling may add additional requirements for upgrading at their discretion. Any such changes shall be made available on the website.

Points to upgrade per USACycling:
4-3 ...or 20 pack finishes with fields over 50.
Can we call this option the nancy-boy upgrade?

Can we call this option the nancy-boy upgrade?

please do.

i honestly don't see the point in upgrading based on attendance.

seems that the USCF is mirroring the way that us educational system treats football & basketball players.

I am not sure WHY you would want to upgrade that way.

Can we call this option the nancy-boy upgrade?

I would call it suicide...

3 to 2 - I'm told this is probably the biggest jump in amateur cycling as the races not only get harder, they get a lot longer, the fields are deeper, and teams are playing a much larger role. I'm a 3, and unless I have a cycling epiphany and start winning everything in site by riding away from the field, I dont plan to upgrade to a 2. I dont have the time to train adequately for the long RRs 2s do (with 1s) and can do most of them as a 3 anyway. So, my opinion here is totally self serving, but unless one is hitting that mandatory upgrade threshold, tough to do as a 3, no upgrade enforcement necessary.

exactly why i chose not to move up to 2 when i had the chance, 10+ years, and 10+ lbs ago.

I think an argument could be made for making these guys 4's or even 3's right out of the gate. I mean, a NORBA expert mountain biker is at least on a cat 1/2/3 level of fitness, and certainly has the bike handling skills to at least negotiate a pack.


Nope.

Road pack skills are certainly different from Tri skills- a lot of really strong Tri riders really don't have the pack skills to be stuck in with a bunch of riders who don't mind contact (3's).

In my experience there's also a pretty big difference between mtb and road pack skills, too. I've known guys who could ride circles around me on a mtb (they'd lap me in CX races) who couldn't sit in in a crit a month later. It was kind of funny-- each of us thought the other was wicked strong because we saw each other riding away in different kinds of races, and didn't know we'd dropped each other on the opposite types of race.

It's even a jump from road to track pack skills-- a lot of guys who are Cat 1s on the road still have to put in their time in lower cats (varies depending on how tracks split the cats, but 1/2/3 and 4/5 are common) to get used to it before they get tossed in with the 1/2 fields.

Nope.

Road pack skills are certainly different from Tri skills- a lot of really strong Tri riders really don't have the pack skills to be stuck in with a bunch of riders who don't mind contact (3's).

In my experience there's also a pretty big difference between mtb and road pack skills, too. I've known guys who could ride circles around me on a mtb (they'd lap me in CX races) who couldn't sit in in a crit a month later. It was kind of funny-- each of us thought the other was wicked strong because we saw each other riding away in different kinds of races, and didn't know we'd dropped each other on the opposite types of race.

It's even a jump from road to track pack skills-- a lot of guys who are Cat 1s on the road still have to put in their time in lower cats (varies depending on how tracks split the cats, but 1/2/3 and 4/5 are common) to get used to it before they get tossed in with the 1/2 fields.

I agree, that's why I believe these guys need to have a top 5 finish limit. After 3 top five finishes in the 5's they get an automatic upgrade. We had a simi pro mtb'er start racing last season and won 10 cat 5 races in row, by just riding off the front of the field on lap one. Game over. At least here in central Texas you can get your 10 races out of the way by the end of March if you want to race two times a day on some race weekends.

the only problem with winning by riding off the front all the time is that guy isnt learning anything about pack riding.

I agree, that's why I believe these guys need to have a top 5 finish limit. After 3 top five finishes in the 5's they get an automatic upgrade. We had a simi pro mtb'er start racing last season and won 10 cat 5 races in row, by just riding off the front of the field on lap one. Game over. At least here in central Texas you can get your 10 races out of the way by the end of March if you want to race two times a day on some race weekends.

yeah-- putting a limit on the number of top 5 finishes would be good. Way back when I started (Cat 5 was a new category then) I think it was 10 races or some number of points to go from 5->4. that way if you made everyone cry in pain every time you got in a cat 5 race, you got upgraded out pretty quick.

One of the toughest upgrades (to endure, not to get) is 4->3 on the track. You go from racing against 5's to racing against 1's and 2's a lot of the time.

I agree, that's why I believe these guys need to have a top 5 finish limit. After 3 top five finishes in the 5's they get an automatic upgrade. We had a simi pro mtb'er start racing last season and won 10 cat 5 races in row, by just riding off the front of the field on lap one. Game over. At least here in central Texas you can get your 10 races out of the way by the end of March if you want to race two times a day on some race weekends.
Then there are the "training" series where there's 12-15 guys on a Tuesday nite CAT 5 race getting their interval work in or newbies trying it out. These training crits count towards your 10 races for upgrades and depending on who's riding that night you could get a top 5 alot easier than on a Sunday afternoon.

I agree, that's why I believe these guys need to have a top 5 finish limit. After 3 top five finishes in the 5's they get an automatic upgrade. We had a simi pro mtb'er start racing last season and won 10 cat 5 races in row, by just riding off the front of the field on lap one. Game over. At least here in central Texas you can get your 10 races out of the way by the end of March if you want to race two times a day on some race weekends.

Good points... I'd have much more faith in the NORBA guy than the Tri guy, but the point is well-made.

the only problem with winning by riding off the front all the time is that guy isnt learning anything about pack riding.

I agree but I will say that the 4's it's harder to do that. First, and I can only speak about central Texas 4's, the fields are stronger and teams actually work together. Second in the 5's I feel like the strongest guys usually win, in 4's smarts start to play a big part. Third I think it's easier to solo away in a 25 mile race than it is in a 50 mile race.

Still there really isn't a perfect solution to sandbaggers. For the most part the guys that sandbag around here get a pretty good beating on TXBRA.org so there's the public embarrassment. Also at what point does winning a bunch of cheap trophy's in the 5's stop having any meaning? Honestly if you can destroy a 5's field you'll be competitive as a 4.

^^^^^
I agree. I just wanted to make another point.

My father in law is a super tri guy and could probably solo off a lot of cat 5 races if he entered them but I would be scared to ride with him in a group.

I don't know what got me started pondering this, but I just started thinking about the issue of when to upgrade, etc. I mean, there are Cat 5's who seem to have been there forever, and I know that it's not unheard of at all for cat 4's to stay 4's despite having enough points to upgrade, or have the 25 pack finishes needed for the 4-3 upgrade.

What are everyone's thoughts on this? Should USAC take a more active role in upgrading people when they have enough races/points, or would that just take away from the fun of racing?

Personally, I feel like the highly experienced 5's, i.e. 20-plus races would be better off in the 4's, and I do feel some frustration with the odd sandbagger, but how active of a role do you think the USCF should take in this? I feel like there are pros and cons both ways.

Didn't your avatar used to say 'Cat 4 for life"?

Didn't your avatar used to say 'Cat 4 for life"?

moot point. DrPete is a humble when it comes to his cycling.

It's pretty clear to me, that the only thing that will keeping him from moving up to the 3s this season is work commitments.

moot point. DrPete is a humble when it comes to his cycling.

It's pretty clear to me, that the only thing that will keeping him from moving up to the 3s this season is work commitments.

The only thing that will keep me from moving up this year is my commitment to being slow.

The only thing that will keep me from moving up this year is my commitment to being slow.

perhaps, but you have the excuse of being an old and cantankerous MoFo. :D

perhaps, but you have the excuse of being an old and cantankerous MoFo. :D

There are lots of old cantankerous MoFos around here who can kick my ass on any kind of ride around here (long, short, flat, hilly, etc) so that's no excuse either, IMO.

--Steve

There are lots of old cantankerous MoFos around here who can kick my ass on any kind of ride around here (long, short, flat, hilly, etc) so that's no excuse either, IMO.

--Steve

agreed.

that was meant to be sarcastic. it's how we tri-staters express ourselves.

probably something to do with growing up watching the Mets on WWOR.

There are lots of old cantankerous MoFos around here who can kick my ass on any kind of ride around here (long, short, flat, hilly, etc) so that's no excuse either, IMO.

--Steve

Botto and Pcad have a relationship....lets just leave it at that shall we? ;)

Didn't your avatar used to say 'Cat 4 for life"?

No, it still is Cat 4 Pack Fodder. If forced to upgrade after 25 races, I'll go be Cat 3 pack fodder. ;)

So, when they say automatic upgrade does that mean they send you a new license in the mail? Because as mentioned earlier, it seems like USA cycling has trouble keeping track of the races we do.

Botto and Pcad have a relationship....lets just leave it at that shall we? ;)

patentcad is on my list of top 5 bf folk.

I'm a forever Cat 3 and a race promoter.

As a racer I have a hard time with the aerobic demands of cycling. If I can get to the finish, I can do alright. Often my race times are measured in minutes as I'm shelled in the first few laps. I haven't finished a road race with the field for something like 20-23 years.

Cost of sending results to USA Cycling:
If you have a spreadsheet program or even a text program, it's free to send results to the USA Cycling because you can email them - you just have to type them out (and pick them - photo finish required for more than a few spots). For the top 6 or so, it shouldn't be a problem. This would really clarify how people are placing.

Opinions on upgrades by category:
5's - I really think you need experience in fields, just watching the multitudes of 5's racing at races I promote. And since 5's aren't allowed to win any cash or merchandise worth anything, it seems okay to let people hang out a little longer. I'd cap it at 10 races over two years though.

4's - Often these races are sit and sprint (or climb and sprint). Riders winning 4 races will have no problem in 3's. In fact, they're probably stronger than 30-50% of the 3's out there.

3's - There are a lot of racers who sandbag here. Of course, this is what I see. When people are current World Champions or current National Champions, they should not be Cat 3's. I've raced against multiple Masters World Champions and National Champions. Doesn't make sense. If they're the best crit or road racer in the country, you'd think they'd be higher than a 3.

2's, 1's - 1's are a political upgrade, have to be approved by USA Cycling. 2's are tough. Fitness actually counts in the 2's.

Keep in mind Cat 5 and 4's are really graded on pack riding skills. 3's and 2's are on fitness as well. 1's have to do with ultimate ability.

Some of my ideas:
If USA Cycling actually upheld the auto-upgrade rule, with perhaps a 1-3 year wait period before allowing a downgrade, you'd see some interesting races. I know racers who are forcibly upgraded to 2's, DNF a bunch of 2 races early in the year, and are downgraded and winning 3's by May. DNF's can allow a racer to plead a downgrade due to no good finishes (there is a auto downgrade for those that haven't placed for some time). Extending that downgrade time, or making it probationary (i.e. if you downgrade and then place top six, you're upgraded again), will make it harder for sandbaggers to get into the easier categories.

As an auto-upgrade, I think anyone placing in the top 6 at Nationals be a 2 for at least a year, perhaps till racing age 50, then make them a 3. If you're in the top 6 at Nationals, it doesn't make sense for you to be a 3 or lower.

Also, USA Cycling doesn't take into account Cat 1-4 Masters races as any category. So you can win a Masters race against top notch Cat 1's, 2's, 3's, and 4's and still remain a (sandbagging) 4. I think they should be counted as Cat 3's at least, so any placing in a Masters race should be a Cat 3 placing. If you're a 4, then you should be upgraded. 5's don't count since most Masters races don't allow 5's.

my thoughts
cdr

Im going to chase Pete into the threes starting in late april/early may.

So what is the real world difference between a cat 1 and 2? Not that I'll ever need to worry about that. They seem to all do the same races, both are freekin fast and skinny. What does being a cat 1 get you?

Andy

So what is the real world difference between a cat 1 and 2? Not that I'll ever need to worry about that. They seem to all do the same races, both are freekin fast and skinny. What does being a cat 1 get you?

Andy

it seems like 1s are just 2s with LOTS of impressive results and no pro contract.

as far as i can tell, you get to get schooled by the pros and stuck fighting for wheels with the other amateurs in the pro/1 races, and you get to school all the 2s and 3s in the 1/2/3 races.

So what is the real world difference between a cat 1 and 2? Not that I'll ever need to worry about that. They seem to all do the same races, both are freekin fast and skinny. What does being a cat 1 get you?

Andy

back in the day this is how it was explained to me:

cat 2 - regional elite

cat 1 - national elite, olympic contender (this was in the days before pros could sandbag the olympics).

Here is an interesting situation for you to contemplate. Here in Oregon (racing under OBRA, not USACycling), we have a very talented 15 yr old that races in the 3s. The OBRA upgrade rules stipulate that 60 pts in 12 months is an automatic upgrade to Cat2. This 15 yr old races Cat 3 only enough to stay just under the 60 points. When he gets up to 55 pts or so in 12 months, he races Juniors for a couple weekends to keep from upgrading. This is on advice from his coach, who thinks he is too young to race Cat 2 distances and therefore should hold off on the upgrade. Maybe his coach is worried that he will burn out. Based on his numerous Cat 3 and Junior wins, he would not get shelled as a Cat 2.

Personally, I don't mind racing against him in Cat 3 (he just won the race I was in 2 wks ago). He probably helps make all of us Cat 3s a little bit faster, and it is just for fun anyway. However, I think he would learn more and improve by racing with the P/1/2s. I hope his coach isn't holding him back.

What do you at BF think of that?