Fifty Plus (50+) - Who's right?

I went for a bike fit, and the person that did the fit claims that he's been doing it for 20 years. I've been having knee discomfort and I'm playing with the shoe clips, and I thought I had it.but I'm not quite there. When this guy fitted me he didn't adjust for toe in or out so that's what I have been working on. I hate to keep going to fitters and giving them my money for a somewhat good job.
Anyhow I have the book by Zinn, "Cycling Primer" and he says if you wear a shoe larger than a size 8 to start with the shoe clips as far back as you can get them and then adjust for toe in or out. I also have the book by Wallack and Katovsky " Bike for Life" and they are saying to have the shoe clips as far forward as you can get them. Is this crazy or what? I really don't care to take it back to the guy who fit me, because I think he would be grabbing for straws. If I could get the base to start at I could start playing with the toe in or out. Any help will be appreciated, George

My opinion is that you are probably the best person to make this sort of fit based on how it feels to you.

Remember that knee pain is also about the length of you seatpost and the cadence you use when riding.
If the cadence gets too low (too high a gear) then considerable strain is placed on the knee. Spinning faster unloads the knee. I'm sure that there will be more advice on this matter from others.

Sometimes conventional wisdom doesn't apply. I tried everything before I realized I had so much toe-out that nothing normal would work. I now use Knee Savers, 1 inch adapters between the pedal and crankarm. No fitters even knew about them back when I started using clipless. I figured out my fit by drilling different hole in my shoes and moving the cleats. BTW, I have size 48 shoes,(13). I started by using clips and straps with touring shoes, and by looking at the marks left by the pedals on the shoes, I had my answer.

I use toeclips and straps and wear flat-soled cycle touring shoes, which permit me to rotate my feet for best knee health and comfort. In my case, the heel boxes of my shoes just barely clear my cranks, as was the case 30 years ago when I wore Detto Pietro cycling shoes with cleats adjusted by the "float" method.

I have always started with proper fore-aft positioning (ball of foot above pedal spindle), and then adjusted rotation from there.

Trial and error! If it feels good, do it!
Knee savers, shorter cranks, different gearing, seat height, spin more - lots of stuff to play around with. Bottom line is no two knees are the same and I guess you play around with all the options will you find something comfortable for you!
It never ceases to amaze me when looking from the rear (because of our upright position we bent drivers can easily look ahead at the uprights without straining our necks - before we pass them, that is! Heh! :) The devil made me say that!) at bunches of pretty experienced bike riders on a tour and note how their legs and knees and pedals line up. Some are as spread eagled as a cowboy on a horse, some are knock kneed, some downright pigeon toed, with every combination in between. Always drives home to me how individual and different we all are!

I have always started with proper fore-aft positioning (ball of foot above pedal spindle), and then adjusted rotation from there.

Me too. When I've fitted cleats for other people I generally ask them if they think that they have long or short toes. Then I install the cleats front-to-back based on their answer.

My opinion is that you are probably the best person to make this sort of fit based on how it feels to you.

Remember that knee pain is also about the length of you seatpost and the cadence you use when riding.
If the cadence gets too low (too high a gear) then considerable strain is placed on the knee. Spinning faster unloads the knee. I'm sure that there will be more advice on this matter from others.

+1
I have to be careful with my knees also, just like you. Cadence and saddle height is critical.
For shoes I use SIDI and put the cleats in the middle. I have not observed a change in knee pain from a change in cleat location. (that does not mean that you may not have trouble)
A cadence of 90+ RPM is good for me and I can do it all day. Cadence of 70-80 will cause trouble quickly. Wrong saddle height will cause trouble immediately and so does saddle position forward or back.

Thanks for the replys guys. I Googled it as well, and one person said to measure the length of the shoe and set the clips 1/3 of the way back from the toe. I set them all the way back last night the way it said in Zinns book and will give it a try today, thanks again, George

George-Others have provided excellent guidance on this already. I am no expert but have played around with positioning and will relate my experiences.

What usually works for me for normal road riding (not a time trial position!!) is to start with the correct seat height for your leg length. Normally it is a range so try and push it close to the top of the range but it still feels comfortable to you. Adjust the saddle fore and aft to get it properly positioned so the bony front point of the knee is positioned over the pedal bolt into the crank. Start with your cleats in a "neutral position" which is over the ball of your foot.

You can then tweak the adjustments based on what your legs and knees are telling you. If the pain is in both knees I'd suggest try moving the saddle first. You can move it up and down or fore and aft depending on the pains. If you're okay in one knee but not the other, then I'd suggest moving the cleat in the knee with the pain fore and aft.

You might be interested to know that I wound up with one cleat slightly more forward than the other based on symptoms of knee pain in the one knee only.

What type of cleats/pedals are you using? Does it have any "float" to it by chance? Knee pains on the inside/outside of the knee might be caused by poor alignment of the cleat as it sounds like that is what you're working on........

Another trick is to set up on a trainer in front of a mirror and get some observations as you're pedaling. You can also video yourself and watch it on the tube. When I did that, I discovered the "piston motion" of my knees would tend to get more "angular" and not as "up and down" as I wanted. For me it was simply keeping my knees closer to the top tube when pedaling. When I trained myself to ride that way my legs/knees seemed to feel better.

Good luck getting yourself squared away. Keep patient and you will find the right positioning that works for you.

I wear size 13 shoes. I adjust my cleats to put the ball of my foot over the spindle of the pedal. That works to having the cleats all the way back. I use cleats that allow my feet to "float". That way, I can move my feet around a bit to hit the spot where they feel best. It has worked pretty well for me.

Pat

George-
Also see if you can determine if your feet have over-pronation or supination...explained at this link: http://www.steenwyk.com/pronsup.htm
This can be a problem with clipless pedals, as it they force your foot to deviate from their natural position, as if you were standing barefoot. If you have either condition to excess, you can have shims put on your cleats to correct the problem and put your feet in a more "natural" position. I had knee issues and seemingly no amount of tinkering with saddle height, fore-aft position, angle, totally diminished the pain. Found a bike fitter who correctly identified my problem and voila'...pain gone

George,
For knee pain/discomfort a shorter crankset may help. I have replaced two 175mm cranks because when I spin with them, my knees hurt. Changing to 170mm solved the problem. Keep working with it yourself and you will solve it.

Someone once described a pedal that a good bike fitter should have. It has rods sticking out in several directions, and the cleat will move. As you pedal for a while on them, they end up in the position that your foot is usually in. This tells them where to set your cleats on your shoe.

I, too, changed to 170mm cranks and had all discomfort disappear. When I went from cages to clipless I marked where the knuckle at the base of my big toe was on the shoe and also the same knuckle of the little toe. I then drew a line between the two marks across the bottom of the shoe. I centered the cleat fore and aft on the line. After that I rode the bike and adjusted the angle so that I was normally in the middle of the "float". I am far more comfortable now than I ever was with cages.

If your knees are irritated George, why not replace your clipless with some platforms (with clips and straps if you like) and ride for a while with some foot freedom and let your knees cool off. During that time, you can establish a good seat height and saddle fore & aft if you feel that is a factor. Having established that and gotten pain-free, you can return to considering cleat adjustments-- keeping in mind the cleats may modify a bit your seat height.

Are your current cleats locked in or do they allow some side to side, float movement-- it makes a difference.

After reading all the experts and absorbing their info, in the end you have to tweak it for yourself till you get it right just for you. Having become a serious cyclist, now you have to do the rite of passage thing of finding all the things that make more and more riding more comfortable and efficient.

You're right CC, I read so much on it I don't think a fitter could help me much more now. I moved the clips on the shoes and put the shoes on the pedals to see what I had. I poured a bucket of water on the floor and walked through it in my bare feet so I could see the angle of my foot. Anyhow that worked, but I had a hint of pain after 15miles so I stopped and dropped the saddle a 1/4 of an inch at a time, after about 5 miles, I stopped again and sprint about 10 yards. I lowered the saddle again and did the same thing 2 more times and I think I MAY have it, I'll know tomorrow. I couldn't raise the saddle anymore after the fit, he had me on my toes. The only way I could go was down. This is really wearing me down, but I know I'm getting close. Just like the saddle, I was ready to give up, but I knew I was getting close so I stuck with it and it's starting to feel better now. Not bad after a thousand miles huh. Anyhow I waiting to get this thing dailed in so I can start getting some miles on it. I put the trekking bars on and love them. I've got to find someone to go touring with now. I'll probably go myself, once I get more gear.Anyhow thanks for the help and keep riding.