Touring - Mace?

Hi,
I have read in a few posts people recommend carrying mace on tour. So far I have done all my riding in Australia and never had any problems...what is the reason for taking it? Is it to repell dogs, people, insurance salesmen?

I will be setting off for a 10 week Europe Tour 12 weeks from now and wonder if it is something I should pack. Has anyone needed or used it?. In what circumstance?

Thanks.

:beer:

In Europe? No. In America? Yes

I have used bear spray(Just a hyped version of pepper spray) on black bears trying to steal my food bags.3 sprays from 20' and they ran off like whimpering little babies.

I carry mace.

A woman alone, no matter where she is, should be prepared to protect herself. I've been in scary situations in every part of the world I've been to, including Australia.

When I finish my tour, I simply find another woman travelling alone and give her the mace and tell her to use it until she's ready to go home, then pass it to another woman travelling alone.

If I ever decided to travel in the USA, I'd take mace. I'd probably carry other weapons too.

I don't carry anything like that. Beware, BTW, about carrying something like that when you cross country borders. Some of these U.S. products are illegal to bring in Canada... yet I'm aware that bear spray exists and is sold here.

BTW, as you will be flying (I assume) from Australia to Europe, there are restrictions on pressurised containers while flying.

Regards,

Pardon my extreme ignorance here, but can someone please explain to me what exactly mace is? Is it something you carry in a can and spray? Is it something big and heavy used to clobber people? I have absolutely no idea.

Originally posted by Chris L
Pardon my extreme ignorance here, but can someone please explain to me what exactly mace is? Is it something you carry in a can and spray? Is it something big and heavy used to clobber people? I have absolutely no idea. Its kind of like pepper spray. It makes your eyes water and your skin burn.

Originally posted by Gojohnnygo.
Its kind of like pepper spray. It makes your eyes water and your skin burn.

Oh, that explains why nobody around here uses it then. We've already got something that does that. It's called "the sun".

Yeah, they always say you can't take pressurized cans on board, but you can take spray cans and perfume and stuff like that.

I'll take my chances. I always pack it in my clothes, and if they check my luggage and they don't like it, they can have it. If they don't, then I'm keeping it on me.

A woman travelling alone is never 100% safe. I would say she's about 70% safe.

I cant say I have ever felt threatened either travelling or at home so I have never considered mace/pepper spray...I guess being 6'3 and 100kg's helps me there.

I carry a swiss army knife which I use for normal purposes which can come in handy if threatened...maybe mace could be handy warding off keen dogs?

Originally posted by Chris L
Oh, that explains why nobody around here uses it then. We've already got something that does that. It's called "the sun". :) Not like sunburn.Its like grinding up some fresh red peppers and then rub it into your face and eyes.You will get picture.:D(Please don't try this at home)

Just be aware, if you are caught with Mace in the UK, you will get free accomodation courtesty of Her Majesty's Prison Service.

If you use Mace in the UK the free accomodation will be longer, you also stand a good chance of being sued by anyone you get with the mace, and the Courts will support them.

Customs & Excise also take a very dim view of people smuggling wepons of any type into this country. You want to be labled as a terrorist ?

I will be carrying pepper spary this weekend on my tour, but I will also have my .357 magnum with me too. I will keep it unloaded while riding, but will load it when I camp out at night. I never know what might show up at my tent during the middle of the night!

I will be carrying pepper spary this weekend on my tour, but I will also have my .357 magnum with me too. I will keep it unloaded while riding, but will load it when I camp out at night. I never know what might show up at my tent during the middle of the night!

I am sure glad I don't have to worry about stuff like that. :eek:

Hmmmmm... good thing I'm not really interested in travelling to England anytime soon! :lol:

Will her majesty get between me and the criminal following me so that I don't have to get robbed, raped, murdered, or ever just harrassed?

I always just take my chances. I've been to stricter countries and not had problems with the mace.

Knock on wood... <knock knock!>

Probably have a point. A female carrying mace can say it is for protection and get away with it but a big bloke probalby wont....it will just look like a weapon.

So, is there generally much to worry about in Europe apart from the normal levels of street crime. Is it particularly bad anywhere?

Originally posted by Gordon P
I am sure glad I don't have to worry about stuff like that. :eek:

It's not so much that I worry about people showing up, it's more about animals, big animals, like black bears. Where I camp out, I am so far from civilization and back in the woods, the probability of a human showing up is very remote.

Originally posted by Koffee Brown
Hmmmmm... good thing I'm not really interested in travelling to England anytime soon! :lol:

Will her majesty get between me and the criminal following me so that I don't have to get robbed, raped, murdered, or ever just harrassed?



Hey, this is Europe, although we may have a similar population in terms of numbers as the USA, we don't have anything close to the theft/****/murder rate.

I think we can safely say that in most of Europe most of the time you are safe from all of the above without any form of protection.

The Police in this country keep 60 million people in check without being armed, and we still have less than 100 gun killings a year.

It's not so much that I worry about people showing up, it's more about animals, big animals, like black bears. Where I camp out, I am so far from civilization and back in the woods, the probability of a human showing up is very remote.

Bears eh! I had a tame cub living beside my cabin for a while last summer, they’re fun to watch. Black bears rarely attack humans and I guess if you are wilderness camping you are bear aware, but a gun is not necessary.

Grizzlies are another matter. :D

Interesting post and opinions. It's a sad, dangerous world we live in and a lone female is more vulnerable than anyone. It's sick that everyone has to keep their head on a swivel to watch out for compromising situations. What ever happened to civility? Why do the criminals have more rights than the decent law-abiding citizens? We need more cops, jails, and citizens willing to get involved when they see someone being victimized. Sorry about the rant, but this thread struck a nerve with me. I need to go ride and blow off some steam....

Regardless of whether Europe has less crime along those lines than what I described, there hasn't been one trip to Europe or any country yet where I haven't been chased, followed, or harrassed by men. And I've travelled A LOT in the last 10 years.

Mace is my friend, and it will always be. I'll risk the fine.

You are right Koffee, I have met many women who have been attacked, rob, harassed, groped and sexually assaulted while traveling. Most men are just not aware of how difficult it is for women while traveling. I read somewhere that 1 in 3 women will be assaulted during their lifetime and for a woman who travels, this would be a lot higher. When I first answered this question I assumed fujitive was male and for a male traveling in Europe, I would still say no to mace, but for a women traveling alone yes.

I got mugged outside of my friendly small town pub last week. The friendly small town bouncer who an hour or so earlier had been showing me his nifty key chain mace called the cops and then watched from the safety of the bar while my friend and i struggled to defend ourselves. It was a sobering experience for a couple of reasons. First, I have never been the victim of a this type of crime here in my home town or anywhere, not even as a solo female traveller in Guatemala where EVERYONE gets mugged (tourist tax they call it), and second, I have been worried about taking off on my own for a cross country trip for the reasons discussed in this thread. I get mugged and I haven't even left yet! :mad: BTW, does anyone have a specific brand or type of mace that they favor? Words of encouragement?

If you go to Walgreen's, you can get a small bottle of the mace that attaches to your keychain. You can also get a long necklace (plain) from any cheap jewelry store and slip it onto your necklace and then hide the necklace around your neck and go about your business. If someone comes up to you from behind, you'll be able to quickly defend yourself.

Sad when you can't even depend on the people who are supposed to be defending you... :(

Koffee

Originally posted by Brains
Hey, this is Europe, although we may have a similar population in terms of numbers as the USA, we don't have anything close to the theft/****/murder rate.

I think we can safely say that in most of Europe most of the time you are safe from all of the above without any form of protection.



I can truly say that's hilarious.

I couldn't have produced a post that combined the usual smugness of Europeans combined with the usual ignorance about America if I'd written it myself.

You do know that many countries in Europe-- including Britain-- have much higher rates of crime than the U.S.? And yes, that includes violent crimes, like assault, ****, and robbery.

Oh, wait, that's right, you were only writing cliches. You don't actually know what you're talking about.

Here's your own left-wing Guardian to educate you:


Alan Travis, home affairs editor
Friday February 23, 2001
The Guardian

England and Wales have one of the worst crime records in the industrialised
world - even worse than America - according to the findings of an official
survey published yesterday which compares the experience of victims across
17 countries.
The study, coordinated by the Dutch ministry of justice, shows England and
Wales at the top of the world league with Australia as the countries where
you are most likely to become a victim of crime. These countries face an
annual rate of 58 crimes for every 100 inhabitants.

The findings, based on interviews with 35,000 people about their experience
of crime across the 17 countries, were carried out last year. They are a
blow to Labour's record and underline the challenge facing Tony Blair when
he marks the launch of Labour's 10-year anti-crime plan next Monday by
becoming the first serving prime minister to visit a prison.

The 2000 International Crime Victimisation survey shows that the falls in
crime recorded since the mid-1990s in England and Wales are part of a
general pattern of falling crime across the industrialised world but,
unlike America, crime levels in England and Wales are still higher than
they were at the end of the 1980s. When the survey was last carried out in
1996, England and Wales also topped the league table with 61 offences per
100 inhabitants.

The survey does show, however, that Britain has the best services when it
comes to looking after the victims of crime, but it also shows we have a
tougher approach to punishing criminals. Asked what should be done with a
burglar convicted of stealing a colour television for a second time, more
than 50% in England and Wales said he or she should be sent to prison for
two years. Only 7% in Spain and 12% in France thought he or she should be
jailed at all.

People were asked whether they had been victims of a range of 11 different
offences in the previous 12 months, including violent and sexual assault,
car crime, burglary and consumer fraud.

The survey also shows that Scotland, with 43 offences per 100 inhabitants,
ranks joint fifth alongside America in the international crime league
behind England, Australia, the Netherlands and Sweden. Northern Ireland has
the second best crime record of the countries surveyed, with 24 offences
per 100 inhabitants - the same rate as Switzerland and only just above
Japan where the biggest crime problem is bicycle thefts. The detailed
findings of the ICVS survey showthat England and Wales are top of the
international league for car thefts with 2.6% of all car owners suffering
the loss of their vehicle in the previous 12 months. In other sorts of car
crime, England was second only to Poland.

Australia and then England and Wales had the highest burglary rates and
rates for violent crimes such as robbery, assault and sexual assault .

One area in which England and Wales did not feature at the top of the
league was in consumer fraud, which is far more of a problem in Poland,
Denmark and the US. Some 5% of Polish people surveyed said they had had to
pay a bribe to a police officer or government official in the previous 12
months.

The survey says the results show the industrialised world splitting into
three separate groups as far as crime is concerned.

High crime countries where more than 24% of the population are victims of
crime each year are Australia, England and Wales, the Netherlands and
Sweden.

Canada, Scotland, Denmark, Poland, Belgium, France and America are medium
crime countries where between 20% and 24% are crime victims each year.

Low crime countries which have crime victimisation rates below 20% are
Finland, Spain, Switzerland, Portugal, Japan and Northern Ireland

Merriwether and I have been down this road before, so I do not expect us to reach a mutual agreement now... But I think some points deserve a comment. :D


Originally posted by Merriwether
You do know that many countries in Europe-- including Britain-- have much higher rates of crime than the U.S.? And yes, that includes violent crimes, like assault, ****, and robbery.

You do know that depends entirely on who you ask and the kind of crime? The UNODC (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime) yearly survey has the following info for reference year 1999 (rate per 100 000 inhabitants):

Total recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm: 2,97 (US) - 0,12 (England & Wales)
Total recorded major assaults: 329,63 (US) - 28,72 (E&W)
Total recorded assaults: 805,21 (US) - 833,72 (E&W)
Total recorded rapes: 32,05 (US) - 15,96 (E&W)
Total recorded robberies: 147,36 (US) - 159,95 (E&W)

You can read the entire survey here: UNODC web site (http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/crime_cicp_research.html).


Originally posted by Merriwether
People were asked whether they had been victims of a range of 11 different offences in the previous 12 months, including violent and sexual assault, car crime, burglary and consumer fraud.

I suppose one could argue this is the correct statistics for this thread - determining sample group's subjective experiences and projecting that to the entire population. In my opinion looking at the actual reported cases is more accurate.

But if we lived our lives according to statistics, few of us would ride a bike. And I personally would carry mace to defend myself from me, as Finland has one of the highest suicide rates in the world. Facts in this matter seem to be:

- carrying mace is illegal in many countries
- if you carry / use it, accept the consequences
- not carrying does not automatically mean you get raped / robbed / mugged

Koffee, would you accept an illegal weapon offered to you by a stranger? Even if it came with the best intentions?

--J

You do know that depends entirely on who you ask and the kind of crime?

I hadn't actually been under the impression that there was unanimity about international comparisons of crime, but your remark would have been useful in case I had been.

The U.N.'s report is just a compilation of the statistics reported by government agencies, without any further analysis. There are some problems with even this report, apparently, as the U.N.'s version of American crime doesn't even agree with the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports.

In any event, there are many differences in the record keeping practices of different countries' police departments. This is one reason why victim surveys are generally favored by criminologists doing international comparisons, despite their drawbacks. Another reason is that the rates of crime reporting vary non-randomly among countries, too.

The last time the U.S. Bureau of Justice, the statistical arm of the Department of Justice, did an in-depth comparison of the crime rates between the U.S. and England-Wales, it compared both surveys and adjusted crime report statistics. This was in 1996. The BOJ worked jointly with with the appropriate internal UK ministry on this report, and it wasn't a report that made much news in the U.S. So one shouldn't conclude it was some kind of political p.r. document. At any rate, here is what the report found:


Whether measured by surveys of crime victims or by police statistics, serious crime rates are not generally higher in the United States than England. (All references to England include Wales.) According to 1995 victim surveys -- which measure robbery, assault, burglary, and motor vehicle theft -- crime rates are all higher in England than the United States (figures 1-4 of the report beginning on page 1). According to latest (1996) police statistics -- which measure incidents reported to police of murder, ****, robbery, assault, burglary, and motor vehicle theft -- crime rates are higher in England for three crimes: assault, burglary, and motor vehicle theft (figures 5-10). The 1996 crime rate for a fourth crime (robbery) would have been higher in England than the United States had English police recorded the same fraction of robberies that came to their attention as American police (figure 15).

Read more, if you like, here:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/html/cjusew96/highs.htm

Below is the _Economist's_ report of the results of the ICVS, a survey which is taken very seriously by European governments, if not by Juha. What the Economist discusses here is the chance per citizen of being victimized by crime, a measure which is not the same thing as the overall crime rate. The U.S. is eighth among rich countries in its chances of citizens being victimized by violent crime, as measured in 1999, behind the following countries/regions in order: Australia, England-Wales, Scotland, Finland, Northern Ireland, France, and the Netherlands. In overall crime, the U.S. isn't even in the top ten.

The U.S. does have high murder rates compared to Britain and most other rich countries, but murder is still a relatively infrequent crime in the U.S. Murder forms a larger proportion of violent crime in the U.S. than in European countries, but it is still less than 2% of violent crime in the U.S. Again, too, rates of all violent crime in the U.S. are lower than in many other countries, despite the variance in murder rates.

People who've not been in many places in the U.S., and who have formed their opinions of American crime exclusively from the movies or their European state-controlled media, tend to be ignorant of another fact about American crime: it is highly region-dependent. Outside of several urban areas, crime in the U.S. is very low. 80% of American counties, for example, have no murders at all in a given year. Rates of violent crime generally in these areas are among the lowest ever recorded in the developed world, year after year. Britain, by contrast, is much more urbanized than the U.S., and so urban crime problems tend to be much more prevalent national problems.

At any rate, that the U.S. has higher crime rates generally than European countries is just a myth, a myth with some basis in ways crimes get recorded in some European countries, but a myth nonetheless.

As far as mace or pepper spray is concerned, it's silly that these things are illegal in places like Britain, but they are. So, it's probably not a good idea to pack it. If you can carry it legally, it's a good idea. Except for drunk or highly motivated people, good pepper spray can be quickly disabling. That's got to be welcome to anyone touring alone, especially a woman.

Here's the _Economist_:

Feb 22, 2001.

BRITAIN may have slipped down many world league tables over the past few decades, but it beats all other rich countries except Australia in one activity: crime. According to a new victimisation survey of industrialised nations, people in England and Wales are at greater risk than anywhere else of having a car stolen. And apart from Australia, people who live in England and Wales are at greater risk of being assaulted, robbed, sexually attacked and having their homes burgled than are people in any other rich country.


The results of the 2000 International Crime Victims Survey (ICVS), published by the Dutch Ministry of Justice, are deeply embarrassing to a government which has promised to be “tough on crime and the causes of crime”. That perhaps explains why the Home Office, which co-operated on the English part of the survey, says it has no plans to publish the findings.

The survey, which asked 34,000 people in 17 countries about their experience of crime, divides the nations into three groups. England and Wales are in the worst group, along with Australia, the Netherlands and Sweden. America—which although way up the murder league is quite moderate in other sorts of crime—is in the middle, with Scotland, Denmark and France. Among the most crime-free countries are Finland, Switzerland and Japan.

There are no obvious reasons why England and Wales should have one of the worst crime records in the developed world. The study points out that violent crime is higher than average there, but the overall pattern of offences is not unusual. Heavy drinking, particularly among young men, is certainly responsible for some of the violence.

Lax sentencing policies cannot be to blame. England and Wales imprison a higher proportion of their people than any other country in Western Europe apart from Portugal. Nor can high rates of burglary be attributed to lack of precautions. More houses in England and Wales have burglar alarms or special locks than do those of any other rich country.

Criminologists, who find the survey results as difficult to explain as ministers, tend to blame the “get-rich-quick” attitudes of the 1980s. Other possible factors, put forward more in desperation than belief, include increased social mobility, and urbanisation.

The home secretary, Jack Straw, says that almost half of all crime is committed by a hard core of 100,000 offenders. The government has already legislated to introduce longer sentences for persistent burglars. It is now proposing to introduce special drug courts for drug offenders, who are responsible for more than a third of all property crime. But whether any of this will change this country’s position in the crime league tables remains open to doubt.

"Just be aware, if you are caught with Mace in the UK, you will get free accomodation courtesty of Her Majesty's Prison Service."

Brains - we have more gun murders here in London than in New York - I dont think the police will be too bothered about a woman just trying to protect herself...

bt, I think people should post longer words/paragraphs...:rolleyes:

Brains - we have more gun murders here in London than in New York - I dont think the police will be too bothered about a woman just trying to protect herself...

Whew! Cause if they put me in jail, I'd be rolling my eyes so hard, they'd be rolling off my head, down the corridor, out the police station, and straight to the palace, for sure!

we have more gun murders here in London than in New York

That is the most crazy thing I've ever heard. Everyone knows that guns are illegal in London....and Chicago...and New York...and Los Angeles. :rolleyes:

ehenz