25 mph is not 20 mph. The times that cars actually do go 20 mph are incredibly small and irrelevent. You can claim that if we lived in a world where no one drove their car faster than 20 mph it would be safer. But the point is moot since at no time in the history of the world and cars was there a national/global speed limit of just 20 mph.

You are either a troll or just a little slow on the uptake. There are several different modes of transportation. Each one of them is quite different from the other. But that doesn't mean we cannot compare how safe each one is.

We have trains, cars, bikes, planes, and buses among others. You claimed that it was reckless and dangerous to ride a bike in traffic with one's child in tow. The reality is that it is far more reckless to drive a car in traffic with your child inside. This has been proven time and again that bike transportation is safer than car transportation whether by mile or by time.
In this case, if I may interrupt, the realistic relevant comparison is the risk of cycling for 18 miles (round trip) along the surface streets that comprise the "natural" cycling route from my house to the Sports Arena area, to the risk of driving for 20 miles along faster surface streets and freeway, which is the google-recommended route (and the way I would normally drive there). In favor of the driving route is much fewer intersections, but of course the speeds are much higher.

Personally, I think both methods are so safe than any differences would be almost irrelevant.

25 mph is not 20 mph. The times that cars actually do go 20 mph are incredibly small and irrelevent. You can claim that if we lived in a world where no one drove their car faster than 20 mph it would be safer. But the point is moot since at no time in the history of the world and cars was there a national/global speed limit of just 20 mph.


Really... how fast did horse drawn carts go before the auto came along... bear in mind that the bicycle preceeded the auto? Perhaps the biggest issue involving the modern day auto, especially in America, is the over abundance of power. It does not take 200 HP to move passengers, this is clearly illustrated by the VW Beetle of only 65HP and less.


You are either a troll or just a little slow on the uptake. There are several different modes of transportation. Each one of them is quite different from the other. But that doesn't mean we cannot compare how safe each one is.


You are right, as long as we do true comparisons... not apple and orange comparisons.


We have trains, cars, bikes, planes, and buses among others. You claimed that it was reckless and dangerous to ride a bike in traffic with one's child in tow.
Really... where? Show me that quote.


The reality is that it is far more reckless to drive a car in traffic with your child inside. This has been proven time and again that bike transportation is safer than car transportation whether by mile or by time.

Really... how fast did horse drawn carts go before the auto came along... bear in mind that the bicycle preceeded the auto? Perhaps the biggest issue involving the modern day auto, especially in America, is the over abundance of power. It does not take 200 HP to move passengers, this is clearly illustrated by the VW Beetle of only 65HP and less.
:eek:

The biggest issue is the over abundance of power???

Do you believe that a 65 HP Beetle is less dangerous and/or less deadly than a 160 HP Miata?
If so, based on what?

:eek:

The biggest issue is the over abundance of power???

Do you believe that a 65 HP Beetle is less dangerous and/or less deadly than a 160 HP Miata?
If so, based on what?

All are dangerous and, in my most humble of opinions, any vehicle that is capable of exceeeding the maximum speed limit in the particular country it is purchased and operates in that maims, injures or kills as a direct result of speed should have the manufacturer and government-regulating bodies held at least partially responsible. If, for instance, 40bhp allows a motor vehicle to reach a speed of 100km/h, then that is the maximum bhp that motor vehicles should be permitted to have. Otherwise, they are complicit---actively---in the wilfull harm and death of millions of people every year.

:eek:

The biggest issue is the over abundance of power???

Do you believe that a 65 HP Beetle is less dangerous and/or less deadly than a 160 HP Miata?
If so, based on what?

The biggest issue involving autos in America... sure. Excessive power leads to excessive fuel waste or "the addiction to oil" that even our oil connected president admits is an issue.

Compare our average vehicle HP to the HP of vehicles in other industrialized nations...

Any overpowered vehicle can easily be more dangerous as it can lead to loss of control problems easier through the temptation to abuse that power.

Now comparing the safety of the 65HP VW which was manufactured long before air bags, and the Miata is an apple to oranges comparison somewhat akin to comparing a bi-plane to a modern Cessna.

My point is that it doesn't take 160HP to transport 4 people (which the Miata can't do very effectively) so why the excess power... leading to waste of resources and a temptation to drive at excessive speed.

:eek:

The biggest issue is the over abundance of power???

Do you believe that a 65 HP Beetle is less dangerous and/or less deadly than a 160 HP Miata?
If so, based on what?

I don't believe either one is dangerous or deadly based on your statement that riding a bike in traffic is NOT dangerous.

Cars don't kill people....People kill people.

Life itself is a continuation of choices and chances that each person makes for themselves, based on their own background, education, skills, etc.

I acknowledge the dangers and try to limit them every time I get on my bike, by choosing my route and taking responsibility for my own safty.
But I never let myself believe it isn't dangersous to ride a bike in traffic.

It's not even the "excessive power" that really bothers me.

It's the speed-porn that North American car companies use to sell their products.

I said it before... could Anheuser Busch get away with marketing beer by showing 20-somethings gargling funnels?

If, for instance, 40bhp allows a motor vehicle to reach a speed of 100km/h, then that is the maximum bhp that motor vehicles should be permitted to have. A 4 passenger car that has only enough power to be able to attain 100 km/h on the flats might not have enough torque to carry 4 passengers up a 15% grade, much less do it at a reasonable speed.

The biggest issue involving autos in America... sure. Excessive power leads to excessive fuel waste or "the addiction to oil" that even our oil connected president admits is an issue.

Compare our average vehicle HP to the HP of vehicles in other industrialized nations...

Any overpowered vehicle can easily be more dangerous as it can lead to loss of control problems easier through the temptation to abuse that power.

Now comparing the safety of the 65HP VW which was manufactured long before air bags, and the Miata is an apple to oranges comparison somewhat akin to comparing a bi-plane to a modern Cessna.

My point is that it doesn't take 160HP to transport 4 people (which the Miata can't do very effectively) so why the excess power... leading to waste of resources and a temptation to drive at excessive speed. I dunno, I've driven a 60 hp VW bus, a 600hp Cobra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_Cobra) replica (that weighs less than 2500 lbs!), and lots of vehicles in between, and I don't discern much if any inherent differences in danger/safety. It's all in the driver. Sure, you could easily spin the Cobra out of control just by hitting the gas too hard (the rear tires will spin and the car will rotate), but the first thing you learn when you get behind the wheel is not to do that! And the VW bus is highly susceptible to sudden swerving from side gusts of wind.

It's not even the "excessive power" that really bothers me.

It's the speed-porn that North American car companies use to sell their products.

I said it before... could Anheuser Busch get away with marketing beer by showing 20-somethings gargling funnels?


I don't know. But I do know that no matter how pretty their Clydesdales are or how many funnels they use, I won't drink that swill.

If you are over the age of 6 and are still influenced to buy or do things you wouldn't normally do or buy just because of a commercial you have some serious problems.

How about the commercial of the guy who kisses his wife then proceeds to base jump off of his front lawn which is actually a small mountain to start his daily commute to work? Anyone move their house to a cliff and start base jumping because of that commercial? I don't think so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM9SCiTjwD8

Sure, you could easily spin the Cobra out of control just by hitting the gas too hard (the rear tires will spin and the car will rotate), but the first thing you learn when you get behind the wheel is not to do that!


If you and those around you survive that first experience... Search BF for "Chicago driver" with powerful car...

I don't know. But I do know that no matter how pretty their Clydesdales are or how many funnels they use, I won't drink that swill.

If you are over the age of 6 and are still influenced to buy or do things you wouldn't normally do or buy just because of a commercial you have some serious problems.

How about the commercial of the guy who kisses his wife then proceeds to base jump off of his front lawn which is actually a small mountain to start his daily commute to work? Anyone move their house to a cliff and start base jumping because of that commercial? I don't think so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM9SCiTjwD8


I want to know how he gets home at night. Also note that he never straps the helmet on, yet remarkably it stays glued to his head.

If you and those around you survive that first experience... Search BF for "Chicago driver" with powerful car... I didn't learn it by experiencing. I knew it before I even got in the car, just as you do now (in case anyone ever asks you if you want to drive their Cobra, who will probably tell you the same thing). Anyway, the Cobra is an extreme example. Most cars aren't anywhere near that overpowered. And yet, except for the potential spinning thing, it's not that different. So you get to 60 4 seconds sooner than the average car than can do it in 8 seconds? Big deal.

Edit: Actually, driving a Cobra is very different from driving just about any other car. It feels like someone connected 4 wheels to a huge engine, and strapped a seat to it. I mean, the engine completely overwhelms the experience. That said, it's not very difficult to drive it just as safely as any other car, which is my point: it's all about the driver. In that sense, it's not that different.

I want to know how he gets home at night. Also note that he never straps the helmet on, yet remarkably it stays glued to his head.


I guess he just scales up the side. I don't know why they don't have him do up the straps. That part just makes the whole commercial seem silly. ;)

If you are over the age of 6 and are still influenced to buy or do things you wouldn't normally do or buy just because of a commercial you have some serious problems.

I like to think I am not.
But I probably am, even though I don't want to be.

I guess I have serious problems, but likely less serious than average.

Al

If you are over the age of 6 and are still influenced to buy or do things you wouldn't normally do or buy just because of a commercial you have some serious problems.


I guess then that someone should tell "Madison Ave" and all those companies that make ads for cars, beer and other things that 6 year olds probably don't buy.

There is a multi billion dollar industry that depends on folks over the age of 6 to be influenced by commercials. What for instantance is the cost of a single minute for a Super Bowl ad? (of course one may argue that Super Bowl watchers have the mentality of 6 year olds... but that is a different thread)

I guess then that someone should tell "Madison Ave" and all those companies that make ads for cars, beer and other things that 6 year olds probably don't buy.

There is a multi billion dollar industry that depends on folks over the age of 6 to be influenced by commercials. What for instantance is the cost of a single minute for a Super Bowl ad? (of course one may argue that Super Bowl watchers have the mentality of 6 year olds... but that is a different thread)


I know people are influenced by a 15 second ad. I am just saying that those people are idiots. But I am glad there are commercials. If not, when would I go to the bathroom?

influenced by commercials.
I consider all advertising to influence me. I hardly watch TV, but see billboards, hear my neighbors radio, surf the net, etc. I've bought stuff from Harris, Nashbar, Performance not all with traditional ads, some even word of mouth or employee presence.

Al

If you are over the age of 6 and are still influenced to buy or do things you wouldn't normally do or buy just because of a commercial you have some serious problems.
That's what successful people who invest billions in advertising count on as a scientific fact. Otherwise I would be a rich man, or a man with much more leisure time.

If you are over the age of 6 and are still influenced to buy or do things you wouldn't normally do or buy just because of a commercial you have some serious problems.

If you are over the age of 6 and believe you are not influenced to buy or do things you wouldn't normally do or buy just because of a commercial then you are influenced to buy or do things you wouldn't normally do or buy just because of a commercial, you're just not aware of it.

If not, when would I go to the bathroom?
During the really scary or really funny moments.

A 4 passenger car that has only enough power to be able to attain 100 km/h on the flats might not have enough torque to carry 4 passengers up a 15% grade, much less do it at a reasonable speed.

What's a reasonable speed? it's all relative, isn't it? So a sedan with just a driver makes 100 km/h in 10 seconds and with three passengers it does it in 17 seconds. Big deal. It for up to speed in a reasonable amount of time, isn't it? Why is 7 seconds so important? Should 7 seconds have precedence over peoples' lives? The reason getting up to speed on a freeway is so important is because the rest of the traffic is doing in excess of the speed limit, but if everyone is going at max of 100, they have time to slow and allow merging traffic to enter safely. Besides, merge lanes are designed for 20-30 seconds as many vehicles need that much time.

There is no justifiable reason ANY vehicle other than an emergency vehicle needs to go faster than the speed limit. Therefore, no car---other than an emergency vehicle---should be designed to or capable of exceeding the speed limit. If they are, then the manufacturer should be held accountable for building a car capable of breaking a law without appropriate justification.

The MOST impacting comment I can draw from this thread is that EVEN the great, soothe the drivers with the waves-n-smiles helmet head experiences road rage.

with a child in tow, no less.

yep, road rage happens. and like mr. head mentions, there's a hundred more drivers that feel the same way but don't act on it.

What's a reasonable speed? it's all relative, isn't it? So a sedan with just a driver makes 100 km/h in 10 seconds and with three passengers it does it in 17 seconds. Big deal. It for up to speed in a reasonable amount of time, isn't it? Why is 7 seconds so important? Should 7 seconds have precedence over peoples' lives? The reason getting up to speed on a freeway is so important is because the rest of the traffic is doing in excess of the speed limit, but if everyone is going at max of 100, they have time to slow and allow merging traffic to enter safely. Besides, merge lanes are designed for 20-30 seconds as many vehicles need that much time.

There is no justifiable reason ANY vehicle other than an emergency vehicle needs to go faster than the speed limit. Therefore, no car---other than an emergency vehicle---should be designed to or capable of exceeding the speed limit. If they are, then the manufacturer should be held accountable for building a car capable of breaking a law without appropriate justification.
If a vehicle's MAX speed is x km/h, then driving at that speed is not very efficient or good for the engine. It means you have to red line the engine in top gear just to get to the speed limit. Plus, that means you're incredibly underpowered for going up steep hills and over mountain passes. Remember the days when cars used to regularly have overheating problems on mountain passes? I almost never see it any more.

i think it is more important to the forum helmet head experienced road rage, despite his waves-n-smiles posturing that he can neutralize angry drivers.

Mechanical limits are not the only way to limit a vehicles max speed. Vehicles can be limited to a max speed and still use engines efficiently and safely.

This is known as "electronic speed governance."
Yes, I know, I've rented trucks with speed governors, and I know they are installed on electric bikes (max speed, 20 mph), at least in CA.

But Enigmatic (in #104) specifically proposed limiting vehicles max speed to the maximum speed limit by limiting the engine horse power. His goals are not only to limit max speed, but also limit ability to accelerate, and to improve fuel economy.

who really cares about that nitpick?

You got RAGED, helmet head, despite your insistence it rarely happens to you because of your wave-n-smile traffic technique. there's angry drivers out there willing to rage cyclists, even ones with kids on the back.

And what about the 'hundred other drivers' that were thinking the same thing but didn't honk or act out?

who really cares about that nitpick?

You got RAGED, helmet head, despite your insistence it rarely happens to you because of your wave-n-smile traffic technique. there's angry drivers out there willing to rage cyclists, even ones with kids on the back.

And what about the 'hundred other drivers' that were thinking the same thing but didn't honk or act out?
If you think you have an argument with me about something, I don't see it.

Yes, it rarely happens, but it does.
Even with kids on the back? This incident apparently was sparked because of the kid on back.
What about the "hundred other drivers"? Got any suggestions? More bike lanes? :rolleyes:

i like genes' suggestion of public awareness campaigns and billboards, etc.

So, getting raged does happen to you, despite your wave-n-smile traffic technique. A telling admission. can I refer back to this when you say you never get raged?

If you are over the age of 6 and believe you are not influenced to buy or do things you wouldn't normally do or buy just because of a commercial then you are influenced to buy or do things you wouldn't normally do or buy just because of a commercial, you're just not aware of it.


I am pretty self-aware and I am a data driven scientist. I don't make any purchase without researching it first. I even won't pay to see a movie if I cannot verify that at least three critics gave it 3 or more stars. I am just as likely to see a movie that was advertised as one I never heard of until I did my research. I literally cannot make a decision if I don't have enough data to analyze. But, I am just weird like that.

I am quite sure that advertisements do not influence my decisions to buy.

Yes, I know, I've rented trucks with speed governors, and I know they are installed on electric bikes (max speed, 20 mph), at least in CA.

But Enigmatic (in #104) specifically proposed limiting vehicles max speed to the maximum speed limit by limiting the engine horse power. His goals are not only to limit max speed, but also limit ability to accelerate, and to improve fuel economy.


And the ability to tow things..... My truck has 260 HP. I don't drive 180 mph, but I do pull a horse trailer.

And the ability to tow things..... My truck has 260 HP. I don't drive 180 mph, but I do pull a horse trailer.

Sure, power applied appropriately makes sense... no one denies that... long haul trucks could not do their jobs with only 65HP of power. But the flip side is that many of our passenger vehicles are clearly overpowered... for the sheer enjoyment of the driver (and waste of natural resources).

i like genes' suggestion of public awareness campaigns and billboards, etc.

So, getting raged does happen to you, despite your wave-n-smile traffic technique. A telling admission. can I refer back to this when you say you never get raged?
Sure. For the record, once every 5 or 6 years, I get raged.

This was the road from the coaster to Sports arena? :eek: The one Mayor big panties put a stoplight on that caused the 200 accidents?

Sure, power applied appropriately makes sense... no one denies that... long haul trucks could not do their jobs with only 65HP of power. But the flip side is that many of our passenger vehicles are clearly overpowered... for the sheer enjoyment of the driver (and waste of natural resources). Most of what we have in our culture is not needed, including our overpowered cars. If not needing something is justification for taking it away, then you might as well as kiss our way of life away.

People who have their basic necessessities met are driven not by what they need, but what they want. If you don't let people have what they want, then you kill their drive to produce what others need and want (think Soviet Union). People want overpowered cars. People are driven to produce by their want for overpowered cars. People work their *****es off so they can drive Corvettes, Porsches, and Ferraris. In that sense, whether you like it or not, overpowered cars serve an important positive function in our culture.

This was the road from the coaster to Sports arena? :eek: The one Mayor big panties put a stoplight on that caused the 200 accidents? No. The incident occurred early (first mile) on the way to the Sports Arena area from La Jolla. On La Jolla Blvd at Nautilus.

But, yes, later we did ride along West Mission Bay Drive from the roller coaster in Mission Beach to Sports Arena Blvd. Are you talking about the light at the end of the bridge?

Most of what we have in our culture is not needed, including our overpowered cars. If not needing something is justification for taking it away, then you might as well as kiss our way of life away.

People who have their basic necessessities met are driven not by what they need, but what they want. If you don't let people have what they want, then you kill their drive to produce what others need and want (think Soviet Union). People want overpowered cars. People are driven to produce by their want for overpowered cars. People work their *****es off so they can drive Corvettes, Porsches, and Ferraris. In that sense, whether you like it or not, overpowered cars serve an important positive function in our culture.

I see your point and agree it is one of the stronger motivating factors in our capitol-based society... however, that does not preclude limiting the owners of such vehicles from driving in an irresponsible manner by what ever means that same society can produce. Such as electronic controls that limit speeds on surface streets. At a minimum, consider the sign clutter that will reduce. :D

I am quite sure that advertisements do not influence my decisions to buy.
You may be a rare exception, in that you really think and make good decisions. And I have no doubt on your research abilities and critical thinking. In spite of this, we are all influenced. That is inevitable. Every study has shown an increase of TV viewing/exposure to advertising to an increase in spending. Has advertising ever changed your thought process from "Do I need x?" to "Which x is the best (which x should I buy)?"

You may be a rare exception, in that you really think and make good decisions. And I have no doubt on your research abilities and critical thinking. In spite of this, we are all influenced. That is inevitable. Every study has shown an increase of TV viewing/exposure to advertising to an increase in spending. Has advertising ever changed your thought process from "Do I need x?" to "Which x is the best (which x should I buy)?"


The closest thing to being influenced is the just fact that I may now be aware that a product exists due to some kind of ad. But that alone is not enough to make me buy it. And, I would bet that I purchase as many things that are advertised as those that are not or at least in such a limited fashion that only my direct research would lead me to know it exists.

For the most part, I ignore advertisements. The only time I watch a commercial is if it is funny. I tune the rest out. For example, the Geico caveman commericials are funny. But, I get my insurance through Liberty Mutual. :)

You may be a rare exception, in that you really think and make good decisions. And I have no doubt on your research abilities and critical thinking. In spite of this, we are all influenced. That is inevitable. Every study has shown an increase of TV viewing/exposure to advertising to an increase in spending. Has advertising ever changed your thought process from "Do I need x?" to "Which x is the best (which x should I buy)?"

If you think about it; one can get around the direct influence by treating commercials as a presentation of options. Like walking through the bike shop with nothing in particular you want to buy, just looking at all the pretty things in the display case. If you look at advertisements correctly, and use them as a way of presenting a solution to a problem you might have, then the advertisment doesn't lead to an impulse buy. In fact, if you treat ads this way, the clever Geico ad might bring to the forfront a problem you have with your current insurance, and eventually lead to you signing up with Progressive!

Just being aware product X is an option means you have been influenced by advertising.
Al

No. The incident occurred early (first mile) on the way to the Sports Arena area from La Jolla. On La Jolla Blvd at Nautilus.

But, yes, later we did ride along West Mission Bay Drive from the roller coaster in Mission Beach to Sports Arena Blvd. Are you talking about the light at the end of the bridge?Ya, where the left hand lane has to stop and the right keeps moving. Do you take the left hand land or cross the right hand lane after the bridge? That spot is scary, even for me :D

Just being aware product X is an option means you have been influenced by advertising.
Al

Of course. But not necessarily in the bad, impulse buying way. Knowing options is not a bad thing. Ever heard of a PEM nut? If you are an engineer, knowing about these little guys makes building things out of sheet metal much easier. So what if it took an ad on Google or a company rep to make you aware of this particular option.

Ya, where the left hand lane has to stop and the right keeps moving. Do you take the left hand land or cross the right hand lane after the bridge? That spot is scary, even for me :D
The right lane is clearly marked for traffic heading to 8 East, and separated by orange cylinders or some kind of barrier from the left (through-only) lane. We were not getting on the freeway, so I looked back, a car slowed to let me in, and I merged to the center of the narrow left lane.

Of course. But not necessarily in the bad, impulse buying way. Knowing options is not a bad thing. Ever heard of a PEM nut? If you are an engineer, knowing about these little guys makes building things out of sheet metal much easier. So what if it took an ad on Google or a company rep to make you aware of this particular option.
Who said being ~"influenced to buy things you normally wouldn't" is a bad or impulsive buying behavior?

If sellers didn't advertise, life would be more difficult or at least more complicated.

Al

Who said being ~"influenced to buy things you normally wouldn't" is a bad or impulsive buying behavior?

If sellers didn't advertise, life would be more difficult or at least more complicated.

Al




I did. It is bad if you are going to buy something just because you saw a clever ad.

I really don't see how the billboards on my ride to work or any other ad make my life less complicated.

I really don't see how the billboards on my ride to work or any other ad make my life less complicated.
Can you imagine life 20yrs ago without a yellow page section?
Al

It is bad if you are going to buy something just because you saw a clever ad.
Just to play devil's advocate, is it really bad?
Isn't it good that a person who can't think for themself should give their money to someone clever enough to create an advertisement that talks them out of it?

Maybe our world of information sharing is just separating the wheat from the chaff; those that can harness the power (as in Brian's example)
Knowing options is not a bad thing.
vs those who are harnessed by the power.
(or more accurately, the relative mix of the two in each person's life... a continuum, not a dichotomy)

Can you imagine life 20yrs ago without a yellow page section?
Al


Are you saying there were no yellow pages 20 years ago, or that it would be nearly impossible to find a plumber(insert anything) 20 years ago without the yellow pages?

If you mean the latter, I see your point. There was no internet to speak of 20 years ago. The only way to find a plumber or whatever, was to look it up in a book of some kind or talk to people with first hand experience with that business.

Are you saying there were no yellow pages 20 years ago, or that it would be nearly impossible to find a plumber(insert anything) 20 years ago without the yellow pages?

If you mean the latter, I see your point. There was no internet to speak of 20 years ago. The only way to find a plumber or whatever, was to look it up in a book of some kind or talk to people with first hand experience with that business.
I meant the later, pre-common use of internet.

Even with internet it can be very difficult to tell what is advertising vs. independent word of mouth - especially if researching products one is not familiar with.

Look, I'm like you I like to think I am in control of everything I spend money on and make choices based on information not provided or influenced by the seller. I really try, but I am also a realist and know that this is near impossible (both in practical manner and because I am human)

Al