From our house it's about nine mostly flat miles to the Chuck E. Cheese where the birthday party was held, which was the destination today with my 7 year old in tow behind my mountain bike on the Piccolo trailercycle.
About a mile from our house I noticed the signal turn red at the light ahead, looked back to make sure it was clear, merged left, and stopped behind the second car at the light. Moments later the light turned green, the two cars went, so did we. I noticed a car was approaching from behind so when we were about half way into the intersection and I looked back (over my right shoulder this time) and merged right towards the curb. As the car was about to pass us, the JAM started honking. Not a friendly toot, mind you, but a solid seconds-long hold-it-down-as-hard-as-you-can. The stuff you've seen on some of Al's videos. I looked over inside the car, and it was 70ish geezer angrily flapping his lips (I couldn't hear anything he was saying) and waving his hand up and down and all around while his wife (presumably) was looking straight ahead, like a zombie, ignoring the whole thing. It was strange because we were in no way holding him up, so it was a classic "I feel the need to teach this jerk-on-bike-with-little-girl-in-tow a lesson". Whatever, this kind of stuff doesn't happen to me very often, nor does it really bother me. What bugs me is the prevalence of this "bike don't belong in the road" attitude. For every JAM that honks like this, I'm sure there are a hundred that simply mutter the same thing in silence. Anyway, he kept going and I probably wouldn't have given it much of a thought again except then I noticed that the black and white car immediately behind him was one of San Diego's finest! I'm not sure exactly when I grasped it, because it took a few moments for my mind to get wrapped around the unbelievable luck we were having. But at some point I was looking over at the officer/driver of the patrol car, and he was looking over at me, we nodded at each other, and he turned on his lights! I slowed down to savor the scenario as it unfolded in front of us for the next few minutes... By the time I pulled up next to the guy, the officer had already pulled him over, walked up to the car, and was giving him the "he has the same right as you to be on the road" lecture. The old guy had an entirely different demeanor, of course, and was expressing concern for "the little girl", saying he was trying to let me know how unsafe it was. The officer calmly noted that honking angrily and attempting to scare the father is an odd way to express concern for the girl, and explained why doing so can cause a cyclist to crash. At that point I interrupted, told him my little girl was 7 and that I was her 46 year old father, and that keeping her safe was my most important task in life. I looked at the officer, said "thank you", and we took off. A couple of blocks later my girl said, "Papa, that police man stopped that man". Yes, honey, he stopped him for honking at bicyclists - he's not supposed to do that". A few minutes later the officer passed us, but I never saw the JAM again. The sad thing is, I bet he's a decent guy and really believed he was doing a good deed.
deputyjones
03-24-07, 05:40 PM
I read this and seriously laughed out loud HH. I am really glad you were able to get some satisfaction from the police. It always makes me feel good when people post stories like this.
But from one friend to another, it made me laugh knowing you from this board and knowing that you are the only person I know that would have the cajones to not only approach an Officer in the middle of a traffic stop, but then interrupt his lecture to add your own two cents.
Not that I think what the Officer had to say was more important than what you did. It's just that most people wouldn't do that. Glad you got to the party safely, and I hope you had a good time.
P.S.: I also went out with the family today and took my son for his first "long" ride on his new Hardrock sport. It was 12 miles and I was able to do a lot of safety teaching and teach him that 12 miles was really no big deal on a bike. We covered it in a little over an hour and hardly broke a sweat.
P.S. x2: I love the old black and whites. I still wonder why departments ever went away from them.
-=Łem in Pa=-
03-24-07, 06:00 PM
I interrupted, told him my little girl was 7 and that I was her 46 year old father, and that keeping her safe was my most important task in life
But you ride her in traffic in a trailer ??
You really, really need to re-evaluate this thought process.
Insanity.
sbhikes
03-24-07, 06:13 PM
Classic! I'm glad you shared that experience! Thanks for making me smile today.
EnigManiac
03-24-07, 06:24 PM
But you ride her in traffic in a trailer ??
You really, really need to re-evaluate this thought process.
Insanity.
Why would you say that? A trailer is allowed on roads and provided the cyclist is operating his vehicle safely, predictably and legally, there should be no greater danger to the occupant of the trailer than the occupant of a car. Don't tell me you subscribe to the myth that cycling is dangerous.
I used a trailer when transporting my son to school for years and while I avoided busy streets (wasn't hard as there were few on that route), I found motorsists remarkably cautious and respectful of the brightly coloured trailer with two warning flags mounted behind it, often waiting patiently on narrow one-way streets until it was safe to pass. Only a very few impatient drivers ever passed, but they never really endangered us.
The driver was at fault in the situation HH described, NOT HH.
rando
03-24-07, 06:26 PM
good story, HH. But I don't know that *I* would take my kid out in a trailer in traffic. too much **** could happen. but I'm a wuss that way. I don't have kids, but I wouldn't take my dogs out in a trailer either! even if they were superintelligent and could shoot deathrays from their eyes. well, especially not then, because I'd have a lot of explaining to do when That happened, and I'd be locked up forever and scientists would take my dogs out to area 51 to study them and then I'd never see them again..... and that would suck. but... good story!
deputyjones
03-24-07, 06:55 PM
But you ride her in traffic in a trailer ??
You really, really need to re-evaluate this thought process.
Insanity.
I ride with my little one in a trailer in traffic. Not a big deal, IMHO.
noisebeam
03-24-07, 07:06 PM
Nice little story. Someday I hope to have such luck with the right witnesses.
I do have harrassment and witness story though: Last week at 6:30pm a friend and I were cycling about within a bike lane on a multilane 45mph road - it was toward the end of rush hour flowing counter flow, so traffic was fairly light. A JAM passed us and honked and shouted at us to get 'our gay asses off the road.' He then slowed to our speed but kept one car length ahead. The guy I was with told him to f off and then pulled out his cell and loudly called out the plate numbers. We were adjacent at this point - the driver going off like an idiot. Anyway, he sped off and we continued. A moment later a guy in a car who had witnessed had pullled ahead and to the side of street and as we passed asked if they guy was harrassing us, I said 'Yes' My friend said 'Don't worry we took care of it' Moments later another driver pullled up next to us and asked if that guy (the original one) was giving us a problem. We said no. About a mile later a police car passed us with lights on. I doubt it was related (after all they would have asked us and also response wouldn't be this quick), but it was fun to imagine one of the two kind drivers had called them.
It was really nice to know that two random drivers noted the minor harrassment we had and took the initiative to see what was up.
Al
ghettocruiser
03-24-07, 07:35 PM
But you ride her in traffic in a trailer ??
You really, really need to re-evaluate this thought process.
Insanity.
Just like anyone who drives a mid-sized car with their child in it on roads frequented by tractor-trailers, right? :rolleyes:
Bekologist
03-24-07, 08:34 PM
.. to clarify for the rest, a piccalo trailer makes a bike more into a tandem, its' not a kid in the back "Burley" style trailer.
so HH, you experienced a JAM. and a cop actually was behind you. amazing. what would the outcome have been if the cop wasn't there? just another typical interaction with a JAM.
happens all the time.
Cyclaholic recently got physically tagged by one down under- actually hit him in the trailer- and you scorned him for 'pointing out the obvious.' nice one ,helmet head.
genec
03-24-07, 08:43 PM
Oh man I am so glad this happened to you.... for one, you finally expressed the core of all my rants: Whatever, this kind of stuff doesn't happen to me very often, nor does it really bother me. What bugs me is the prevalence of this "bike don't belong in the road" attitude. For every JAM that honks like this, I'm sure there are a hundred that simply mutter the same thing in silence.
Too often I feel "yet again" like I have to "train" the entire freaking driving world...
Sure it "doesn't bother you," but in reality, there it is in a nutshell... the prevalence of this "bike don't belong in the road" attitude.. This is exactly the root of "the Notion" and of the bulk of my rants.
Second... it happened to you and you cannot deny it... that "attidude" that you so often say you just ignore. Man, when it is right in your face for the umpteenth time, it is just so old.
Of course only you would have Obie right behind the JAM and have it dealt with righteously right on the spot.
Me, I gotta deal with it myself (remember Road II... ) :D
Buy a lottery ticket... it was your day!
N_C
03-24-07, 10:07 PM
HH, nice story. Guy got what he deserved, not sure if I would take my child in a trailer on a busy road. I'd maybe try to find a less busy road if possible.
But next time can you have a few more paragraphs to make it a little easier to read? My eyes got lost as I was reading it.
Helmet Head
03-24-07, 11:09 PM
Of course only you would have Obie right behind the JAM and have it dealt with righteously right on the spot.
I figured you would say something like this. I was anticipating your "only you" reaction since it happened. It is pretty funny, isn't it?
Helmet Head
03-24-07, 11:15 PM
But you ride her in traffic in a trailer ??
You really, really need to re-evaluate this thought process.
Insanity.
good story, HH. But I don't know that *I* would take my kid out in a trailer in traffic. too much **** could happen. but I'm a wuss that way.
I have to say, the cyclist I was 6 years ago would be a lot more reluctant to ride the way I do now, particularly with my child in tow. For anyone in San Diego who has ever ridden from the Mission Beach area to the Sports Arena area... you know the traffic situation is not pretty. But we went over the bridge, controlling the right lane, and had a "blocker" behind us the whole way.
Once you take the concept of owning total responsibility for your own safety (and the child you are towing) to heart, and understand how to do that and what it entails, it becomes a lot less scary.
Bekologist
03-25-07, 01:31 AM
you sound so flippant and nonchelant about JAMs with your child in tow- do you find having a little child hanging off the back of your bike affords you similar protections as the weekend peloton, HH?
Carusoswi
03-25-07, 03:06 AM
What the heck is a jAM?
CommuterRun
03-25-07, 04:59 AM
But you ride her in traffic in a trailer ??
You really, really need to re-evaluate this thought process.
Insanity.
A child in a bike trailer with a competent cyclist at the helm, is in a much safer position than a child in a car. Riding in a car is a much more dangerous way to travel. The only safer way to travel is by school bus.
genec
03-25-07, 06:01 AM
I figured you would say something like this. I was anticipating your "only you" reaction since it happened. It is pretty funny, isn't it?
Oh heck yes.
Like Noisebeam, I too long for the day when the right witnesses are available.
And like you said, it doesn't happen often, but behind every "instance" are the 100 or so motorists that wanted to do it. Those are the ones that give you the looks and the arms in the air and shoulder shrugging as they pass by... often with a bit of "power display" in their haste to move on.
Yeah, it can be ignored, but man it gets so old.
On the plus side, I can't help but wonder if, as gas reaches $4.00 a gallon, we are not starting to get a bit of "respect" or even "sympathy" from the public... a'la the old gas wars of the '70s, back when I first took up cycling as regular transportation. Of course there will always be the buttheaded JAMs that will feel they own the road, like the gas guzzing Hummer drivers... :rolleyes:
genec
03-25-07, 06:06 AM
What the heck is a jAM?
Jack ***** Motorist.
Beyond "cager..." a cager being a motorist that can't thing outside of "the box."
A JAM is a rude abusive motorist that has their head "where the sun doesn't shine."
sgtsmile
03-25-07, 07:11 AM
I like that term, as it distinguishes nicely between the motorist who is a jerk, and the motorist who is not (cager seems to fail to make that distinction in the way I have seen it used in this forum in particular).
Cyclaholic
03-25-07, 07:30 AM
What bugs me is the prevalence of this "bike don't belong in the road" attitude. For every JAM that honks like this, I'm sure there are a hundred that simply mutter the same thing in silence.
When you combine the prevalence of this attitude with the lack of moral or social conscience of a criminal you get the type of whacko that tagged me last Friday. You think it's rare? well I totally disagree, I think there are far more belligerent people behind the wheel that will tag you and your child just for the hell of it than you care to admit to.
I have a trail-a-bike and a Phillips kiddicarrier, I often tow both as a road-train. Thats 3 kids under 5 years old and the 3 most important people in the entire universe to me. There is no way on earth I will take any of them onto a public road while there is the remotest chance of encountering one of those whackos. It's the sidewalk to the mup, to wherever the mup allows us to go, and that's it for us. Fortunately we have a wealth of segragated cycleways here that take us everywhere we go and beyond.
Cyclaholic
03-25-07, 07:33 AM
A child in a bike trailer with a competent cyclist at the helm, is in a much safer position than a child in a car. Riding in a car is a much more dangerous way to travel. The only safer way to travel is by school bus.
Is this a statement of fact? If so, what is it based on?
sbhikes
03-25-07, 08:42 AM
The sad thing is most people believe we need the cops to spend all their time catching murderers and people like that. The thing is, something about traffic can make otherwise law-abiding ordinary people turn into vigilantes. A lot more motorists than you would think believe when they see a bicyclist that they have a right, even a duty, to play judge, jury and execututioner if need be. Teach us a lesson. They even think they're doing us a favor.
This is why so many people won't take any chances biking on busy roads no matter what you offer them as far as facilities or classes. Add kids into the mix, and most people will think you're nuts. But that still doesn't give them the right to risk your life to give you their opinion. If they are really that concerned, they should call the police and let the police handle it.
EnigManiac
03-25-07, 08:54 AM
A child in a bike trailer with a competent cyclist at the helm, is in a much safer position than a child in a car. Riding in a car is a much more dangerous way to travel. The only safer way to travel is by school bus.
These are the same school buses with a high centre of gravity, a distracted driver, no seat-belts, steel tubed seats at head high., right?
ellenDSD
03-25-07, 09:05 AM
HH, I am glad to hear that with the help of local enforcement, you were able to teach at least one driver that we [bikers] belong on the road too.
But all this about kids in trailers, trail-a-bikes, etc. is crazy talk! I don't know if you guys realize this but every day we take our lives into our own hands by virtue of going about our daily business. (For example, you could die in the shower by slipping on the soap and banging your head. Are you going to stop cleaning yourself then??)
Yes, we take steps to ensure our safety and we certainly go to great lengths to protect our children. But we can't simply stop doing what we need to do (like getting ourselves from point a to b with our kiddos) because of 'what ifs'. As HH pointed out, our personal safety is our personal responsibility. Take it seriously or live in a sequestered box.
PS: I mean all of the above in the kindest, most non-judgmental way possible :)
Brian
03-25-07, 09:49 AM
But you ride her in traffic in a trailer ??
You really, really need to re-evaluate this thought process.
Insanity.
My son was 4 weeks old before we strapped his car seat into the trailer. He loved it. I stuck to bike paths and sidewalks until we was about one, then he went behind me off road (through some pretty rough stuff) and also behind my triathlon bike, which made me a very strong rider.
Motorists gave us a wide berth when we were on the streets, with the exception of one day, when someone leaned out the window of a lowered truck, and fired a .22 at my (now ex) wife.
I don't see trailers as safe or unsafe. Rather, it's the cyclist and the chosen route that define safety.
genec
03-25-07, 10:18 AM
Well I see this thread is losing focus... many respondents are focusing on the trailer and not the action that occured.
I still think this is the key: What bugs me is the prevalence of this "bike don't belong in the road" attitude. For every JAM that honks like this, I'm sure there are a hundred that simply mutter the same thing in silence.
I also see this as an indication that "your butt in the saddle of a bike" was NOT enough for this motorist to accept your rights, as a cyclist, to use the road.
This example is exactly why I feel public campaigns need to be carried out informing the driving public that indeed cyclists have the same rights to the road as any other vehicle driver.
Motorists feel justified carring out actions similar to what happened to you (and in what those "100 others" are thinking) because they quite often have no idea that cyclists have rights to the road. Most motorists are just trying to "avoid that stupid biker" riding in the road... they are not sharing the road or treating you like "the driver of a vehicle" at all. In their minds, you are simply a "stupid obstacle" to be avoided.
Any of you out there reading this can easily test what motorists may be thinking by simply asking anyone at a public event (such as a wedding, or cocktail party) what they think about cyclists using the road. The person you ask should not know you as a cyclist... so you can even do this in your office at lunch or any other place where you can have an open conversation, and people don't know you as a cyclist. The idea is to simply ask drivers what they think of cyclists on the road. The responses will amaze you. Somewhere along the way in the conversation, mention that you have heard that cyclists have the same rights as any other vehicle driver. In the end of course, you may want to reveal that you are a cyclist. But my point is that few motorists know that cyclists have rights to the road. They may have been told, once, long ago, but they have long forgotten this... and sadly the falsehoods are constantly reinforced by sidewalk and curb hugging cyclists. Without any other message indicating otherwise, what are motorists to think?
Helmet Head
03-25-07, 10:23 AM
HH, I am glad to hear that with the help of local enforcement, you were able to teach at least one driver that we [bikers] belong on the road too.
But all this about kids in trailers, trail-a-bikes, etc. is crazy talk! I don't know if you guys realize this but every day we take our lives into our own hands by virtue of going about our daily business. (For example, you could die in the shower by slipping on the soap and banging your head. Are you going to stop cleaning yourself then??)
Yes, we take steps to ensure our safety and we certainly go to great lengths to protect our children. But we can't simply stop doing what we need to do (like getting ourselves from point a to b with our kiddos) because of 'what ifs'. As HH pointed out, our personal safety is our personal responsibility. Take it seriously or live in a sequestered box.
PS: I mean all of the above in the kindest, most non-judgmental way possible :)
:love: :beer:
Helmet Head
03-25-07, 10:36 AM
I also see this as an indication that "your butt in the saddle of a bike" was NOT enough for this motorist to accept your rights, as a cyclist, to use the road.
Naturally, I see the opposite.
Because I chose to take my girl to the birthday party by bike, rather than succumb to the temptation of the much easier option of driving, hundreds of people (we were riding a total of two hours like that through crowded areas with quite a bit of weekend beach traffic on a beautiful day) were able to see us riding a bicycle with child in tow vehicularly, taking our place in line at lights, controlling the lane when appropriate (including on the west mission bay drive bridge over to the sports arena area), etc., and we did get dozens of smiles and handwaves. It's funny how many choose to let me know that "she's not pedaling". We also passed lots of cyclists strugging to get around ped style. They couldn't help but notice that we were using an alternative method. If we're the only ones they ever see riding like that, it probably won't matter. But imagine if they saw a few more...
This example is exactly why I feel public campaigns need to be carried out informing the driving public that indeed cyclists have the same rights to the road as any other vehicle driver. I think a few dozen more fathers doing the same thing with their kids would accomplish much, much more, and for far less money.
Motorists feel justified carring out actions similar to what happened to you (and in what those "100 others" are thinking) because they quite often have no idea that cyclists have rights to the road. Most motorists are just trying to "avoid that stupid biker" riding in the road... they are not sharing the road or treating you like "the driver of a vehicle" at all. In their minds, you are simply a "stupid obstacle" to be avoided. Don't forget that this JAM got a lecture from a cop, and I suspect the wife is not going to keep quiet about it either... I think he's going to give it far more thought because of this personal experience than anything some "public campaign" would accomplish, all because he happened to see me and my daughter with our butts in the saddle.
Bekologist
03-25-07, 11:13 AM
you're such a stellar advocate to have a cop following you to give lectures to JAMs.
this aggressive actions towards cyclists happens ALL THE TIME when there aren't police around to lecture the driver. where does that leave the scenario? a proud driver, filled with endorphins at intimitating a bicyclist, and more inclined to repeat the action.
your spin on your story does little to negate Genec's more accurate assessment of the roads, mr. head.
and why did you scold cycleholic for HIS description of ACTUALLY GETTING PHYSICALLY TAGGED on the trailer by a driver in his recent thread?
Helmet Head
03-25-07, 12:20 PM
Scold???
CommuterRun
03-25-07, 12:51 PM
Is this a statement of fact? If so, what is it based on?
http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm
These are the same school buses with a high centre of gravity, a distracted driver, no seat-belts, steel tubed seats at head high., right?
Yes they are. If there is a statistically safer way to travel on roads, streets and highways, what is it?
genec
03-25-07, 01:03 PM
Don't forget that this JAM got a lecture from a cop, and I suspect the wife is not going to keep quiet about it either... I think he's going to give it far more thought because of this personal experience than anything some "public campaign" would accomplish, all because he happened to see me and my daughter with our butts in the saddle.
Yup, one at a time... just like I teach motorists now...
Now imagine if instead of a police car following each cyclist, there was a couple of billboards telling every motorist every day along hiway 5 that cyclists have same rights to use the road as any driver and that exercise is good for you and cycling is cheaper than gas.
I'd say that would be far cheaper than a cop behind each cyclist.
The only problem with these "stats" is that they compare autos moving at 60MPH to bikes moving at 20MPH.
Try comparing death rates per mile for vehicles moving at 20MPH only. Bearing in mind that all new autos today have airbags.
If autos were driven at bicycle speeds, they would be far far safer then even bikes, per mile driven. Up the speed and the kinetic energy also increases dramatically.
Imagine the opposite for instance... riding a bicycle at 60MPH...
Personally we'd all do much better if cars were never driven at hiway speeds on surface streets... That is one of the biggest issues I see in urban areas... they are designed for "auto scale" vice "human scale." If autos had to drive at 25 or 30MPH for instance, then bikes could easily be integrated into the picture... but when bikes are out there in 50MPH traffic... then it is easy to see why some folks just can't see riding a bike in traffic.
One of the reasons that bikes fare so well in many European cities is that the cities were designed long before autos existed... and therefore the streets are scaled for humans and carts (the latter which are often used to deliver goods in narrow Paris streets for instance). As soon as multilaned 45-50MPH and up Urban Hiways are added, then "auto scale" takes over and human scale is left behind.
Helmet Head
03-25-07, 01:16 PM
Yup, one at a time... just like I teach motorists now...
Now imagine if instead of a police car following each cyclist, there was a couple of billboards telling every motorist every day along hiway 5 that cyclists have same rights to use the road as any driver and that exercise is good for you and cheaper than gas.
I'd say that would be far cheaper than a cop behind each cyclist. I would support such billboards, but I don't think they would affect the thinking of these JAM's very much. To them, whether we have the "legal right" to be there is irrelevant, as are the health and environmental benefits. They believe we're just stupid for doing something so dangerous, that we must not realize how dangerous it is, and they are doing us a favor by letting us know. You should have heard this guy explain it to the cop. Heck, read the posts in this thread from Lem and Rando. There are cycling "advocates" who believe this way.
genec
03-25-07, 01:22 PM
Naturally, I see the opposite.
Because I chose to take my girl to the birthday party by bike, rather than succumb to the temptation of the much easier option of driving, hundreds of people (we were riding a total of two hours like that through crowded areas with quite a bit of weekend beach traffic on a beautiful day) were able to see us riding a bicycle with child in tow vehicularly, taking our place in line at lights, controlling the lane when appropriate (including on the west mission bay drive bridge over to the sports arena area), etc., and we did get dozens of smiles and handwaves.
You also got hundreds of people responding in exactly the way you mentioned... or did you forget so soon... I'm sure there are a hundred that simply mutter the same thing in silence.
You said it yourself... So those hundreds that you saw out there... were they thinking "what a fool" and "get out of the way" just like the JAM that honked at you?
And the dozens that smiled... what exactly were they thinking... "Oh I can ride a bike like that..." or "Awwww that's cute, but I would NEVER do that... "
Look at the responses you have here on BF based only on the trailer...
Yeah your butts in the saddles of a bike taught the public very very little... the cop behind the JAM laid down the lesson... But hundreds of motorists passed you and never got the lecture.
genec
03-25-07, 01:30 PM
I would support such billboards, but I don't think they would affect the thinking of these JAM's very much. To them, whether we have the "legal right" to be there is irrelevant, as are the health and environmental benefits. They believe we're just stupid for doing something so dangerous, that we must not realize how dangerous it is, and they are doing us a favor by letting us know. You should have heard this guy explain it to the cop. Heck, read the posts in this thread from Lem and Rando. There are cycling "advocates" who believe this way.
Thanks for making my point... so how many motorists thought it was cute and yet stupid?
A billboard is not going to change things overnight... but it will reach far far more people than any 100 LAB classes ever will.
Plant a seed... that is what it takes. Start with billboards... work on talk show hosts... get public education to include cycling and cycling rights in PE... make sure Driver's Ed classes make the point of cyclists rights.
You reached one motorist... maybe a dozen... I'll give you that... I talk to a dozen drivers a year and try to get them thinking in the right direction.
Look at the bigger picture. That is what needs work. Inform the public, not the individual.
rando
03-25-07, 02:44 PM
Personally we'd all do much better if cars were never driven at hiway speeds on surface streets... That is one of the biggest issues I see in urban areas... they are designed for "auto scale" vice "human scale." If autos had to drive at 25 or 30MPH for instance, then bikes could easily be integrated into the picture... but when bikes are out there in 50MPH traffic... then it is easy to see why some folks just can't see riding a bike in traffic.
One of the reasons that bikes fare so well in many European cities is that the cities were designed long before autos existed... and therefore the streets are scaled for humans and carts (the latter which are often used to deliver goods in narrow Paris streets for instance). As soon as multilaned 45-50MPH and up Urban Hiways are added, then "auto scale" takes over and human scale is left behind.
nice summary... I pretty much agree with this!
Falkon
03-25-07, 03:05 PM
Just like anyone who drives a mid-sized car with their child in it on roads frequented by tractor-trailers, right? :rolleyes:
Midsize cars are dangerous. That's why I only put my family in an Abrams tank so if something were to happen, we'd always "win."
Excellent story, HH. Was it an actual trailer or a trail-a-bike that you're using?
sgtsmile
03-25-07, 04:40 PM
Personally we'd all do much better if cars were never driven at hiway speeds on surface streets... That is one of the biggest issues I see in urban areas... they are designed for "auto scale" vice "human scale." If autos had to drive at 25 or 30MPH for instance, then bikes could easily be integrated into the picture... but when bikes are out there in 50MPH traffic... then it is easy to see why some folks just can't see riding a bike in traffic.
One of the reasons that bikes fare so well in many European cities is that the cities were designed long before autos existed... and therefore the streets are scaled for humans and carts (the latter which are often used to deliver goods in narrow Paris streets for instance). As soon as multilaned 45-50MPH and up Urban Hiways are added, then "auto scale" takes over and human scale is left behind.
Well said. We have had our (sometimes loud) differences before on this subject, but you nailed it here. I think before, we were comparing two different things really (expressways vs surface roads). Around here, it is easiest to behave like a vehicle (take a lane) on a bike in the older parts where the speeds are down and the lanes narrower than on our 70kmph arterial roadways simply because the scale is different.
rajman
03-25-07, 04:50 PM
I'm glad this turned out the way it did for you HH.
I see lots of people towing kids, animals, beer cans and more in trailers. I think they really enhance the utility of bikes, and the more there are out there, the better. I feel nervous sometimes watching cyclists with kids in trailers - but more often in off-road situations or when hitting potholes than from traffic.
FWIW I haven't seen the red light running/wrong way riding common to other cyclists in the city from people hauling their kids in trailers.
I wish every encounter with a JAM could end this way :)
Roody
03-25-07, 05:08 PM
Great story HH!! I know just how good you felt. Recently I was walking with the signal in a crosswalk. A right-turning car almost hit me. There was a cop right behind him. I looked him in the eye and said, "Hey! Go get him!" The cop flipped on his lights and pulled the guy over. I was so happy that I started dancing and cheering. So did the other pedestrians on the sidewalks all up and down the block. It felt like a small victory over the JAMs.
But one thing. True perhaps that for each JAM like this one, there's a hundred other silent ones who agree that we don't belong on the road. But for each of those hundred, there's another hundred who know that we have every right to be there.
In a busy city, several thousand drivers pass you every day, yet incidents like this are still a rare occurrence (at least for everybody except Bek ;))
Roody
03-25-07, 05:21 PM
Thanks for making my point... so how many motorists thought it was cute and yet stupid?
A billboard is not going to change things overnight... but it will reach far far more people than any 100 LAB classes ever will.
Plant a seed... that is what it takes. Start with billboards... work on talk show hosts... get public education to include cycling and cycling rights in PE... make sure Driver's Ed classes make the point of cyclists rights.
You reached one motorist... maybe a dozen... I'll give you that... I talk to a dozen drivers a year and try to get them thinking in the right direction.
Look at the bigger picture. That is what needs work. Inform the public, not the individual.
genec, you've totally won me over to this opinion. But it took a few months of reading your posts about motorist education to convert me. In the same way, it's going to take years--maybe even decades--of concerted education campaigns to change cager attitudes about our right to the road.
But it can be done. It took 20 years of constant PSAs (remember the crying Indian and Woodsy Owl?) to make a dent in littering. Fifty years of intense anti-smoking campaigns are finally starting to work too. So it might take 50 years for motorist education to work too. And we'll never even get started if we're always arguing about bike lanes and whether it should be VC, EC or AC.....
CommuterRun
03-25-07, 06:36 PM
If autos were driven at bicycle speeds, they would be far far safer then even bikes, per mile driven. Up the speed and the kinetic energy also increases dramatically.
<italics mine>
To go even further out on a tangent with HH's thread, sorry HH. I'm glad things worked out for you with the LEO being a witness to the incident.
Yes, quite right, Gene, if we were discussing the hypothetical, which I am not. My point is that this is what happens at current, real world, everyday, speeds. Cycling is safer than driving.
If motor vehicle operators went no faster than bicycle speeds, then driving would be safer than cycling, but that is not the case.
sbhikes
03-25-07, 07:21 PM
It took 20 years of constant PSAs (remember the crying Indian and Woodsy Owl?) to make a dent in littering.
Yeah, and have you noticed they don't have Woodsy the Owl or the crying Indian anymore and now littering is getting as bad as a 3rd world country around here? The pressure has to be steady, constant and permanent.
genec
03-25-07, 07:50 PM
genec, you've totally won me over to this opinion. But it took a few months of reading your posts about motorist education to convert me. In the same way, it's going to take years--maybe even decades--of concerted education campaigns to change cager attitudes about our right to the road.
But it can be done. It took 20 years of constant PSAs (remember the crying Indian and Woodsy Owl?) to make a dent in littering. Fifty years of intense anti-smoking campaigns are finally starting to work too. So it might take 50 years for motorist education to work too. And we'll never even get started if we're always arguing about bike lanes and whether it should be VC, EC or AC.....
Yup, might take a darn long time... as you point out. However, even Smokey the Bear and Woodsy Owl made impressions on some folks right off the bat.
We have had rights to the road in California, for instance, since the '70s... but info regarding such has not been in the driver's handbook until about the '90s (as I can best recall) and even now it amounts to about a page and a half of some 80 pages. Motorists don't know, cause frankly no one has told them. If we cyclists expect rights to the road, we have to tell the world... otherwise it is essentially "our little secret."
John Forester has attempted to spread the word via his book... which few cyclists have ever read. LAB has attempted to preach to the choir, but only by word of mouth. (you have to know they exist to even go looking for them or their classes)
Time to get serious about spreading the word. "Go tell it on the mountain." Get the word out. Take the same path as those before... be it littering, seatbelts, drunken driving or anti-smoking... If you want the public to know... ya gotta tell 'em. We sure aren't doing it now. I was really hoping Lance Armstrong might share some of his glory to this cause... but he has another calling...
So we have to do it on our own.
Motorists think "share the road" means that cyclists should move over for cars... so much for that idea.
It is high time (especially in light of the cost of gas) to spread the word. Critical Mass isn't the way either... it has been sending some darn mixed messages.
Nope, if we expect to have rights to the road, then every road user has to know about those rights... and it up to us to tell 'em.
This is also the key to keeping our rights to the road... if our fellow cyclists don't know they have rights, how in the world can they be expected to defend those rights?
Time to get out there and tell the world. We own the road too.
Brian
03-25-07, 07:59 PM
Personally we'd all do much better if cars were never driven at hiway speeds on surface streets... That is one of the biggest issues I see in urban areas... they are designed for "auto scale" vice "human scale." If autos had to drive at 25 or 30MPH for instance, then bikes could easily be integrated into the picture... but when bikes are out there in 50MPH traffic... then it is easy to see why some folks just can't see riding a bike in traffic.
Much to my surprise, in Utah, 25 MPH is the average speed of a car going diagonally across a parking lot. When we go out for a casual ride, we stick to residential streets (unless it's Sunday) rather than the main streets, as the traffic is much slower.
Helmet Head
03-25-07, 11:58 PM
Midsize cars are dangerous. That's why I only put my family in an Abrams tank so if something were to happen, we'd always "win."
Excellent story, HH. Was it an actual trailer or a trail-a-bike that you're using?
A Burley Piccolo trailercycle. Trail-a-bike is a brand name for the trailercycle made by Adams. Most designs, including Trail-a-bike, attach to the seat post. The Piccolo is a much better design, as it attaches to a (custom Burley Moose) bike rack, and provides a much more stable connection. This is particularly important when pulling with a tandem, which I do (I have three Moose racks, one on my mountain bike, one on my wife's, and one on the tandem). Unfortunately, when Burley was bought out last year they decided to focus exclusively on trailers, and stopped making the Piccolos.
Helmet Head
03-26-07, 12:04 AM
I've told this story to a number of people this weekend. Most get it, to an extent. But they also seem to agree with the JAM that it's inherently dangerous to ride a bike in traffic. They don't go so far as to say it's so dangerous that's irresponsible to tow a child in traffic, but they sure seem close to wanting to say it. "It's not you, it's the drivers that are the problem".
Yes they are. If there is a statistically safer way to travel on roads, streets and highways, what is it?
Nope, nothing there says anything about the safety of a child in a trailer. If your statement is just what you choose to beleive irrespective of how unfounded that belief is, just say so, it's OK you're entitled to your opinion.