Advocacy & Safety - Riding safely with children.

Hello,
My children, 8 and 11, and I must ride bicycles together on very busy suburban roads and I would like some advice on how to do this most safely. When I am alone, I ride in the street and am very comfortable there. I have tried riding that way with my daughter, the older child, but it soon proved unsafe and I haven't dared to try it with both children. She and I were riding together and she was in front. It didn't take long for her to get spooked, and almost hit, by a car shooting out too far in a right turn lane without so much as looking at who might already be there. She did everything right but it was still almost ugly.

So now we ride on sidewalks together. We wind up stopping at almost every driveway and dismount and use the crosswalk at every controlled intersection. I won't let them ride through a crosswalk and I don't feel secure letting them ride in the street so the whole thing feels very schizophrenic and annoying to me. There are very few 'mid-mile' lower traffic streets to use and the few that exist generally terminate in uncontrolled crossings of 5 lanes of traffic. Any advice?

Find out the nearest place you and your children can take LAB Road 1 and 2 courses, as soon as possible. Ideally, you should try to get certified as an instructor yourself.

But, in general, the same learning/teaching principles apply as they do in other areas, like scuba diving and airplane piloting. You start with relatively safe environments (swimming pool for diving, clear days with instructor for flying, quiet residential streets for biking).

You shouldn't take bicyclists inexperienced with traffic cycling on a busy suburban street any more than a pilot's initial solo flights should not be done on cloudy overcast days.

Riding according the pedestrian rules on sidewalks and crosswalks, very slowly, is probably all you can do until your kids learn the basic vehicular skills (see the "some VC definitions" thread in the VC subforum).

But, I think you should take the classes, become an instructor, and then teach your kids, and some of their friends, and some of the parents of the friends...

I dislike the idea of paying to learn how to handle a bicycle in situations, but some sort of education is greatly needed for children in order for them to operate a bicycle in traffic situations safely.
Being a father too, I would definately use every option to my advantage.
I'd definately try some sort of "what would you do if..." type of training with the older child. The younger one could prove to be more difficult given age and lack of experiences along with a lesser understanding of how things work. Maybe try and instill in the older child that the younger one looks to her for example. That way the older child might think twice before making decisions when you are in group rides.

I guess this is one area where I can somewhat agree with Helmet Head. If you have the money then the training for the children can't hurt, it can only be an advantage.

This relatively inexpensive DVD (http://www.bikeleague.org/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=33) would probably help you alot, Gerdz. I found the "kids eye view" portion to be particularly educational.

I dislike the idea of paying to learn how to handle a bicycle in situations...

Why? Did you pay to go to college? How about learn how to drive? Have you ever paid for any sort of education anywhere?

How did you learn to swim? Did you take a class?

What makes cycling so special that you expect that any associated education should be free?

Why? Did you pay to go to college?
Yes, but a formal education in a career is different than learning something that comes with experience.



How about learn how to drive? Have you ever paid for any sort of education anywhere?
I've been driving tractors and farm trucks since I was 12. Never had any classes on it. By the time I decided to get my license, at age 17, I already had more hours in the drivers seat than your average highschool kid could imagine.



How did you learn to swim? Did you take a class?

A river I grew up on. If you can't swim, you don't make a worthwhile fisherman. :p No need for a class. We had plenty of ponds and waterways when I was young. Learning to swim came natural, for lack of better terms. I've been swimming for as far back as I can remember.



What makes cycling so special that you expect that any associated education should be free?
Did I say cycling was special or the education should be free? Did I not say that if he had the money to spare that taking the class would be an advantage?
I only stated that I "dislike the idea" of paying for what the father could teach the children. Nothing more. I never said I opposed it, or hated it... only that I disliked it. I also dislike paying taxes, but I know the money is needed to support government and public facilities. I dislike paying for services that are required to live a meaningful life (water/sewage, electricity, etc) but I still pay them without argument.
Maybe you read too much into what I said or thought I was coming off differently in that small blurb of my post. (??)

I think there are more people out there on the roads today that did not pay for cycling education than did. And I'm quite sure that thruout the last 50 years more people have learned on their own or thru peers how to handle these situations and have fared quite well in doing so. But I never said the proper education should be free, or that cycling is somehow special.

Two problems here. One is that you just don't see children outside anymore so drivers don't drive with any kind of watch for kids awareness. And the other problem is people are overestimating the skills young children are capable of. These bike instructors are not trained in child development and don't understand what skills kids are capable of mastering or not.

Find out the nearest place you and your children can take LAB Road 1 and 2 courses, as soon as possible. Ideally, you should try to get certified as an instructor yourself.


I just completed my LCI certification Sunday; the seminar instructor teaches cycling full-time in the school system in Louisiana. (I on the other hand, will teach it in my free time to encourage cycling).

The LAB Kids 2 class is more appropriate for age 11. I don't think you'll find anyone willing to teach Road 1 to anyone under 13.

I would encourage parents to take Road 1.

Keep the oldest kid in front, and the parent in back, to watch and instruct.

Avoiding busy high-speed roads is important for family cycling; one of my primary efforts at cycling infrastructure advocacy is to discourage street topologies that lack good connectivity of low-speed roads. I also encourage short-cut paths between neighborhoods to provide longer routes to more destinations where the streets themselved have inadequate connectivity.

Road One is not for 8 & 11 year olds. They should take Kids One. Road One is for 14+ teens and Adults.

Unfortunately, I have no good suggestion for the original poster. If the traffic is too complex for them to handle, if it exceeds their cognitive abilities, the kids should not be on that roadway at that time.

But this notion of not wanting to have formal training to do complex and dangerous tasks is patently absurd:

"I've been driving tractors and farm trucks since I was 12. Never had any classes on it. By the time I decided to get my license, at age 17, I already had more hours in the drivers seat than your average highschool kid could imagine."

The death rate for farming accidents is horrific. And probably, the younger you go, the higher the accident rate goes, like for any another dangerous activity involving machinery. I'm glad the poster got through his teens years ok, but we don't hear from 12 year olds on this forum who lost limbs or lives through farm equipment injuries.

I got through my teen years ok: no helmet, no cell phone (none in 1970s), no ID on my person, no Road One training, no lights, no reflective gear. But knowing what I know now, I know I could have benefitted from all of the above. The fact that I survived doesn't mean that training is not necessary.

I am going to put a poll out on this theme in a minute.

Training is the requisite first step in eliminating hazards at home or on the job. Period! (BTW, I teach Road One courses for free, so I have no financial stake in the argument).

But this notion of not wanting to have formal training to do complex and dangerous tasks is patently absurd:


I'm assuming that this is aimed towards me giving that you quoted me elsewhere in your post.
But please point out to me where I said anything against anyone getting formal training.
I believe that I said the training can only be an advantage.
Where did you come up with that?



The death rate for farming accidents is horrific. And probably, the younger you go, the higher the accident rate goes

According to the OSHA stats I found, which are somewhat dated:
There are 3.1 million people working on farms and ranches in America.
There are 120,000 injuries and 1300 deaths per year.
300 of these deaths are children.
So you are correct in your statement. But a majority of these deaths are caused by the fact that farms are so far away from hospitals that proper medical attention takes too long, the machines have safety guards removed, and protective equipment is not used as well.
But really, why did you chose to steer this thread in this direction when I only brough up my farming experience to show how I learned how to drive a car??

[EDIT]
Giveing those statistics, how do they add up to the ammount of cyclists on the road that are injured/killed during the same time?



Some people in this forum are just plain silly.

Not only should you ride behind your child but you should also ride further out into the lane. As previously suggested try and find streets and times that have lighter traffic. Make your children practice looking for traffic behind them while still riding on a straight line.

AndrewP has a good point. I never even thought to mention it before. When I go riding with my family, since I am the most skilled and do it quite a bit more, I always take the flank. I ride in the rear and more to the left, that way the rest of them have more of a cushion.
thanks for bringin that up Andy ;)

Yes, but a formal education in a career is different than learning something that comes with experience. Judging by the way the vast majority of experienced cyclists ride in traffic, it does not come with experience for most.



I've been driving tractors and farm trucks since I was 12. Never had any classes on it. By the time I decided to get my license, at age 17, I already had more hours in the drivers seat than your average highschool kid could imagine.
No one is talking about classes for learning how to ride a bike.
We're talking about classes for learning how to ride a bike in traffic.



I only stated that I "dislike the idea" of paying for what the father could teach the children. Nothing more. I never said I opposed it, or hated it... only that I disliked it. What makes you think the father could teach the children? What makes you think he knows what to teach them?

Hello,
My children, 8 and 11, and I must ride bicycles together on very busy suburban roads and I would like some advice on how to do this most safely. When I am alone, I ride in the street and am very comfortable there. I have tried riding that way with my daughter, the older child, but it soon proved unsafe and I haven't dared to try it with both children. She and I were riding together and she was in front. It didn't take long for her to get spooked, and almost hit, by a car shooting out too far in a right turn lane without so much as looking at who might already be there. She did everything right but it was still almost ugly.

So now we ride on sidewalks together. We wind up stopping at almost every driveway and dismount and use the crosswalk at every controlled intersection. I won't let them ride through a crosswalk and I don't feel secure letting them ride in the street so the whole thing feels very schizophrenic and annoying to me. There are very few 'mid-mile' lower traffic streets to use and the few that exist generally terminate in uncontrolled crossings of 5 lanes of traffic. Any advice?

From what I gather from your story, it sounds like you were riding straight through an intersection using the right turn lane? Is that correct?

I'm not knocking you for doing this as I used to do the same thing and think nothing of it. After all, it's how every other cyclist I ever saw on the roadways handled intersections. After reading "Effective Cycling" and thinking about my previous bad experiences of going straight through turn lanes, it began to click in my head that I was doing something less safely than it could be done by following the herd rather than following standard traffic principles. Without going into a long drawn out story about how my cycling practices have changed over the past few years, I'll leave it at this: if safety while cycling (either by yourself or with your children) is of great concern to you (and I hope it would be), taking a class on cycling in traffic or reading one of the well regarded books on the subject is a great way to improve your safety on the roads. You'll find that most of what's taught is simply acting as a vehicle driver while cycling. Most people have experience as a vehicle driver that can always keep up with the flow of traffic and is wide enough to take up an entire lane. Learning how to operate a vehicle that usually cannot keep up with traffic and is much narrower than a full lane is relatively easy but requires throwing out most of what you know about how to ride a bike in traffic.

Judging by the way the vast majority of experienced cyclists ride in traffic, it does not come with experience for most.

hehehe, true, so true
But c'mon, most people on here know what they're doing, even if we don't agree on technique. I argue the hell out of some of your ideas, but I have never said that you didn't know what you were doing.



No one is talking about classes for learning how to ride a bike.
We're talking about classes for learning how to ride a bike in traffic.

Right, that's what I was talking about too. I did say but some sort of education is greatly needed for children in order for them to operate a bicycle in traffic situations safely. See, I knew what we were talking about here. But remember, I said the class can be a good idea. I ONLY said that I didn't like the idea of paying for something like that, assuming the father can teach it. And I was led to believe that he could since he says he has no problem riding there himself.



What makes you think the father could teach the children? What makes you think he knows what to teach them?
Teaching a child is, well... the main part about being a farther! In your definition of "father" does not "teaching" come up in it? It does in mine, and is in the top 3, if not the top 1. And as I said previously, the father said he could manage the streets fine. So if he can ride there fine, and he is a father (teacher figure), then why shouldn't he be able to.

At least you didn't confuse what I said though, except that part about "in traffic", and I appreciate that. But this thread is anot about me and out of all the posts here only 3 of them, I think, have addressed the OPs concern.
Silly

hehehe, true, so true
But c'mon, most people on here know what they're doing, ...
Some folks on this forum clearly know what they're doing (like JJ, Goodridge, Gene, Galen, Daily Commute, and many others). Others clearly do not. Others I'm not so sure...

That said, I guarantee you none of those guys would ever write something like this:



It didn't take long for her to get spooked, and almost hit, by a car shooting out too far in a right turn lane without so much as looking at who might already be there. She did everything right but it was still almost ugly.

Do you believe those are the words of someone who knows what he's doing riding a bike in traffic?


And I was led to believe that he could since he says he has no problem riding there himself.
Not realizing they have a problem (they think it's the motorists) is pretty normal for cyclists. This is why there is so little interest in cyclist education - most cyclists think they already know all there is to know.

Some folks on this forum clearly know what they're doing (like JJ, Goodridge, Gene, Galen, Daily Commute, and many others). Others clearly do not. Others I'm not so sure...

And where would you say I fit in on this list? I'm sure I already know.



That said, I guarantee you none of those guys would ever write something like this:
some quote from the OP
Do you believe those are the words of someone who knows what he's doing riding a bike in traffic?

Sounds reasonable to me. When I read the post of the OP, I read that they were in a right turn lane, and so I am comprehending that they are turning right. And that a car "shot out" from a side street or driveway into the right turn lane in front of the little girl. In suburbia, right turn lanes can be rather long, around here they are 1/8 of a mile and in some places longer.
What did you comprehend from his post? That he was going straight thru an intersection in the right turn lane? That is how it seems from your remark in this situation. And there is nothing in his post that leads me to believe he was doing anything besides riding legally and making a right turn in a right turn lane.
When I read posts from people I don't automatically assume they are ignorant. I read them for what they are and if something sounds off I ask for clarification.



Not realizing they have a problem (they think it's the motorists) is pretty normal for cyclists. This is why there is so little interest in cyclist education - most cyclists think they already know all there is to know.
Again, are you assuming that the cyclist was going straight in a right turn lane? He very well could have been but there was NOTHING in his post that would lead me to belive he was. What would lead you top believe that?
I'd seriously like to know what you thought the OP was trying to do in this situation and what leads you to feel that way.

I'd like to hear from the OP on this one as it seems some people need clarification here.

From what I gather from your story, it sounds like you were riding straight through an intersection using the right turn lane? Is that correct?



No, that isn't what we were doing. When I did have her in the street, I taught her about right turn lanes and getting over to the first thru-lane rather than staying to the right of the right-turn lane. What happened to her was this: we had just crossed a freeway overpass and had a green light so were crossing perpendicular to freeway exit ramp traffic which was SUPPOSED to be stopped. A motorist wanting to turn right and travel the same direction we were travelling shot out, over and past the crosswalk and into the bike lane in which we were travelling. An illegal and inconsistent move on the motorists part, but one we've all probably had to deal with. I have taught both kids, while walking or riding, to always watch the right turn lane but this guy came out so fast and so far that I had to tell Christa that there was nothing she could have done more safely. Spooked her and made me feel sick.

Thank you for the suggestion of the LAB courses - I think I have a decent grip on travelling safely - I've been riding in traffic for over 25 years, but a brush-up course probably wouldn't hurt. Traffic seems more dense and aggressive than back when I rode the most. I'd love to get the kids into a class as well, but sadly I can't find any courses being offered in the Phoenix area. I checked the calendar on the LAB website and there were several events in Tucson but none in Phoenix. For such a large city, Phoenix is certainly lacking in any transit facilities not involving the automobile.

We travel just as you suggested - oldest first, younger middle and dad in the back.

sbhikes - Do you have a child development background? Do you think that an 8 year old is incapable of grasping the responsibility and danger of riding in the street? The last thing I want to do is see one of my kids hurt. If so, we will probably keep acting as pedestrian/cyclists until they grow up a bit.

I may look up that DVD if we can't find any courses. Thanks for the link. I would like to get my daughter up to speed so she and I can enjoy weekend group rides together.

Thank you all for taking the time to reply.

Mike.

Having gone through this with four kids, I think I can help you out.

1. Get a bike rack and drive to a safer area. This will allow the kids to become better riders safely.

2. Give them the speech. It goes something like this...
"When we're riding, I am totally in charge. I say stop, there better be skid marks. I say go, you go now. Do not question me, do not look back and ask me what I mean. Just do what I say. I'm your dad and love you greatly. You don't know what I know about driving in traffic so you must trust me.

If I see you getting into danger, I will do whatever it takes to keep you fom getting hit by a car, including knocking you off your bike. I am your law!"

I've given that speech to my kids and a bunch of others. I also grabbed on of my boys by the collar and lifted him off his bike when he got too close to a car.

3. Keep talking, loudly enough for them to hear your instructions. Car back, stay to the right, near the curb, slow down, speed up etc.

4. Remind them that the bike is far less important than they are. We were crossing a busy road once when my daughter was about 7. She was walking her bike and tripped. She left the bike in the middle of the road with 20 cars bearing down on it and ran to the side. I had time to pick it up and rescued the bike. I told her then that she did exactly the right thing.

5. Encourage your kids.

Gerdz: You're welcome.
And I am sorry that this thread kept getting steered towards other discussions by people who felt it necessary to bring up every other subject in the world besides focusing on your questions.
And I'll go ahead and apologize to you as well for the others who felt you were "ignorant" or not in realization that "you had the problem". Lord knows they'll not give you the respect you deserve as a concerned cyclist and suck up their pride and apoligoze themselves. (well, until they read my post here) :D

Hopefully you'll all three be on the road soon enough and enjoying the Arizona weather.
Good luck.

That said, I guarantee you none of those guys would ever write something like this:


Do you believe those are the words of someone who knows what he's doing riding a bike in traffic?


Not realizing they have a problem (they think it's the motorists) is pretty normal for cyclists. This is why there is so little interest in cyclist education - most cyclists think they already know all there is to know.

Hey!:mad:
j/k - you misunderstood what we were doing. Hopefully my most recent post clears things up. :)

When riding alone, I think the only non-VC things I do are travelling in a bike lane when they are available and not taking over a lane when I can't keep up with traffic.

Hey!:mad:
j/k - you misunderstood what we were doing. Hopefully my most recent post clears things up. :)

When riding alone, I think the only non-VC things I do are travelling in a bike lane when they are available and not taking over a lane when I can't keep up with traffic.

It wasn't a misunderstanding, it was a classic Helmet Head example.
I'm not the only one who has accused him of "reading peoples minds" when they make a post.
And he accuses us of having reading comprehension issues, or problms understanding written English.
Have fun exploring the A&S threads if you're bored and you'll see what I mean.

we had just crossed a freeway overpass and had a green light so were crossing perpendicular to freeway exit ramp traffic which was SUPPOSED to be stopped. A motorist wanting to turn right and travel the same direction we were travelling shot out, over and past the crosswalk and into the bike lane in which we were travelling.

...

Do you think that an 8 year old is incapable of grasping the responsibility and danger of riding in the street? The last thing I want to do is see one of my kids hurt. If so, we will probably keep acting as pedestrian/cyclists until they grow up a bit.

Since the driver shot out over the crosswalk before stopping in the bike lane, the crosswalk would not have been any safer a place to be than the roadway, and possibly less.

I believe the only ways for the cyclist to reduce the risk of this type of motorist-drive-out collision would be to reduce speed (providing more time for the motorist and cyclist to react) or to operate farther left, closer to the normal flow of traffic, where motorists about to enter the road expect and look for traffic. The former can be taken to the extreme by walking the bike through intersections as a pedestrian (but beware of walking on the left side of the road where there is right-turning traffic.) The latter approach is why I leave bike lanes to move into the normal travel lane when approaching intersections. However, it would be difficult to teach this to a child, since it requires disobeying the striping as well as making a safe lateral movement closer to overtaking traffic.

Since the driver shot out over the crosswalk before stopping in the bike lane, the crosswalk would not have been any safer a place to be than the roadway, and possibly less.

I believe the only ways for the cyclist to reduce the risk of this type of motorist-drive-out collision would be to reduce speed (providing more time for the motorist and cyclist to react) or to operate farther left, closer to the normal flow of traffic, where motorists about to enter the road expect and look for traffic. The former can be taken to the extreme by walking the bike through intersections as a pedestrian (but beware of walking on the left side of the road where there is right-turning traffic.) The latter approach is why I leave bike lanes to move into the normal travel lane when approaching intersections. However, it would be difficult to teach this to a child, since it requires disobeying the striping as well as making a safe lateral movement closer to overtaking traffic.

That's the trick - there is no bike lane on the bridge crossing the freeway - we were in the traffic lane where the bike lane was about to pick up again. Our only saving grace was that we were going slowly. It's an ugly intersection with construction on two of the four corners that I hate traversing even alone. We go through the intersection together when doing our shopping, but for now we go through it as pedestrians.

sbhikes - Do you have a child development background? Do you think that an 8 year old is incapable of grasping the responsibility and danger of riding in the street? The last thing I want to do is see one of my kids hurt. If so, we will probably keep acting as pedestrian/cyclists until they grow up a bit.

No, I do not have a child development background and that's the point. Most people who teach subject mainly for adults do not understand very well what children are capable of and what they are not. I think children can understand that there is danger in traffic, but how well can an 8 year old stay on task, ride a bike perfectly straight and understand that there is more to be done than just "be careful" because "traffic is dangerous." I think it depends on the 8 year old, but we may be asking more of them than they are capable of. Otherwise, wouldn't we be letting them drive cars?

Children think differently than adults. For example, my 17 year old nephew just joined the military believing there's no way he'll go to Iraq, believing he'll make 70K a year and because, get this, because he hates the government. Tell me kid's brains work the same as adults!

I think children can understand that there is danger in traffic, but how well can an 8 year old stay on task, ride a bike perfectly straight and understand that there is more to be done than just "be careful" because "traffic is dangerous."

Sadly, you lost him at 'stay on task.' ;) He is very serious when we are out riding but he is still a little kid.

Hey!:mad:
j/k - you misunderstood what we were doing. Hopefully my most recent post clears things up. :)

When riding alone, I think the only non-VC things I do are travelling in a bike lane when they are available and not taking over a lane when I can't keep up with traffic. Sorry if I got you mad. But I call 'em as I see 'em.

Thanks for the more detailed description. A couple of comments:

You wrote (in the OP Edit: in post #18) that the driver turned "into the bike lane in which we were travelling." This may sound like nitpicking, but it's critical to recognize that when you're crossing an intersection you are not traveling in a bike lane, and, more importantly, you should not be where the bike lane would be if it did extend across the intersection, especially if faster same direction traffic is not present to "block" for you. The reason for that is precisely to manage the situation your daughter found herself in. If same direction traffic was present, then the guy would not have popped out of the right turn lane. If you and your kids were riding further left (since there was no same direction traffic), then you would have been able to manage the situation better for two reasons:

1) You would have been riding where the right-turner was likely to have been paying the most attention: in the traffic lane.
2) Her sight lines to the right-turn would have been better, and she would have had more buffer space to deal with it.

Now, if your daughter is not ready to ride across this intersections properly, that's no excuse to have her do it in a way that leads her into these "almost ugly" situations. She shouldn't be allowed to ride on roads with intersections that she is unable to manage properly.


It wasn't a misunderstanding, it was a classic Helmet Head example. There was no reading of minds. What was obvious was that Gerdz' daughter was in a standard/classic/predictable situation and that his take on it was: "she did everything right". With all due respect, I wouldn't want him teaching my girl how to ride in traffic.

For an example of the writing of someone who does know what he's talking about, and who I wouldn't hestitate in having him teach my girl, see:



I believe the only ways for the cyclist to reduce the risk of this type of motorist-drive-out collision would be to reduce speed (providing more time for the motorist and cyclist to react) or to operate farther left, closer to the normal flow of traffic, where motorists about to enter the road expect and look for traffic.
...
The latter approach is why I leave bike lanes to move into the normal travel lane when approaching intersections.



That's the trick - there is no bike lane on the bridge crossing the freeway - we were in the traffic lane where the bike lane was about to pick up again. Our only saving grace was that we were going slowly. It's an ugly intersection with construction on two of the four corners that I hate traversing even alone. We go through the intersection together when doing our shopping, but for now we go through it as pedestrians. Note your original words in the OP: "the bike lane in which we were travelling." Your frame of mind when you wrote ( EDIT: ) the OP post #18, and probably when you were riding, is that you were not riding where vehicular traffic normally travels, but off to the right in space you think of as "the bike lane" (your words). If you were lined up with the bike lane across the intersection then you were too far to the right, precisely because of the vulnerability your daughter was subjected to.


I think I have a decent grip on travelling safely - I've been riding in traffic for over 25 years, but a brush-up course probably wouldn't hurt. I commend you for recognizing that at least "a brush-up course probably wouldn't hurt." Most cyclists wouldn't even admit that much. If you're good at learning from reading, you should definitely pick up a copy of Effective Cycling and study all the stuff in it about how to ride in the road (you can skip most of the rest of it). But study and practice the road riding stuff. It's about changing your habits to adopt better practices, and that takes time. Don't just skim it.

Sorry if I got you mad. But I call 'em as I see 'em.

Thanks for the more detailed description. A couple of comments:

You wrote (in the OP) that the driver turned "into the bike lane in which we were travelling."

... some stuff edited out...
There was no reading of minds. What was obvious was that Gerdz' daughter was in a standard/classic/predictable situation and that his take on it was: "she did everything right". With all due respect, I wouldn't want him teaching my girl how to ride in traffic.

... some stuff edited out...

Note your original words in the OP: "the bike lane in which we were travelling." Your frame of mind when you wrote the OP, and probably when you were riding, is that you were not riding where vehicular traffic normally travels, but off to the right in space you think of as "the bike lane" (your words). If you were lined up with the bike lane across the intersection then you were too far to the right, precisely because of the vulnerability your daughter was subjected to.


Ummm, where in the OP did he mention bike lane? You stated unoquivocally that the original post had "bike lane" in it twice.

So tell me HH, according to the info provided in the OP, and only in the OP, what makes you think he or his daughter did anything wrong?

You make no sense at all here and seem to be getting quite confused.

Just for the record: I am a complete maroon. I take the reflectors off my kids and my bikes to save weight. We ride in the street, going the wrong direction so we can see what cars are doing. I wear only black when I ride, because it looks cool. Oh, and j/k means just kidding. I wasn't mad but you were combative. HH your first post was very helpful and I thank you for educating me about the courses offered by the LAB. I just don't understand why an honest request for advice has to deteriorate to belligerence and one-upsmanship so often in these forums. I will be careful not to include 'examples' in future posts; they seem to serve only to distract from the point.

Ummm, where in the OP did he mention bike lane? You stated unoquivocally that the original post had "bike lane" in it twice.
Sorry. Good catch. It was in the clarification in post #18 that he wrote that. I'll fix my post accordingly.


So tell me HH, according to the info provided in the OP, and only in the OP, what makes you think he or his daughter did anything wrong?
The biggest clue was the assertion that "she did everything right" in an intersection conflict without any further detail. This is typical of someone who believes it is normal and quite common for cyclists to do "everything right" and still end up in ugly situations at intersections. For someone who realizes how unusual it is, the importance of providing the details of the situation would have been obvious. If something at an intersection were to happen to Gene, JJ, Goodridge, noisebeam, etc., where they believed they "did everything right", it wouldn't occur to them to not provide the details of the situation.

Note in my response to you in post #13, I wrote:


What makes you think the father could teach the children? What makes you think he knows what to teach them?
The implication was that what was notably absent from the OP was an indication that he knew what to teach.

Just for the record: I am a complete maroon. I take the reflectors off my kids and my bikes to save weight. We ride in the street, going the wrong direction so we can see what cars are doing. I wear only black when I ride, because it looks cool. Oh, and j/k means just kidding. I wasn't mad but you were combative.
Sorry about that.


HH your first post was very helpful and I thank you for educating me about the courses offered by the LAB. I just don't understand why an honest request for advice has to deteriorate to belligerence and one-upsmanship so often in these forums. I will be careful not to include 'examples' in future posts; they seem to serve only to distract from the point. Sorry. I am just very frustrated by the general lack of understanding and appreciation about the importance and relevance of basic vehicular cycling skills and practices on this forum, despite countless claims to the contrary. Everyone claims they get it, and just don't like how it's presented, etc., then a thread like this comes up, and nobody but JJ, SG and me even realize that there is something obviously wrong: that a basic intersection conflict is very unlikely to turn "almost ugly" if the cyclist is truly "doing everything right".

Sorry about that.

Sorry. I am just very frustrated by the general lack of understanding and appreciation about the importance and relevance of basic vehicular cycling skills and practices on this forum, despite countless claims to the contrary. Everyone claims they get it, and just don't like how it's presented, etc., then a thread like this comes up, and nobody but JJ, SG and me even realize that there is something obviously wrong: that a basic intersection conflict is very unlikely to turn "almost ugly" if the cyclist is truly "doing everything right".

Thanks. For a (at that time) 10 year old on one of her first outings in traffic, who I would not expect to 'command' a lane with a 45 mph speed limit, I thought she did do everything right and felt she needed reassurance. The motor vehicle operator did break the law and she needs to know that that will happen.

Thanks. For a (at that time) 10 year old on one of her first outings in traffic, who I would not expect to 'command' a lane with a 45 mph speed limit, I thought she did do everything right and felt she needed reassurance. The motor vehicle operator did break the law and she needs to know that that will happen.
Well, if you told her she did everything right because she had, based on what you had taught her, that's one thing.

But you told us, in the OP, that she did everything right. That's something else again.

Riding a bicycle in traffic is not rocket science, but it's also not trivial. "Doing everything right" is arguably harder than "doing everything right" while driving a car or motorcycle in traffic. And, in my opinion, "doing everything right" should include not only the bare minumum to be legal, but employing all the known best practices to minimize one's exposure to the errors of others. That's why there are books and classes on this stuff. Again it is not rocket science, but it's also not as simple as most people seem to think.

Well, if you told her she did everything right because she had, based on what you had taught her, that's one thing.

But you told us, in the OP, that she did everything right. That's something else again.

Riding a bicycle in traffic is not rocket science, but it's also not trivial. "Doing everything right" is arguably harder than "doing everything right" while driving a car or motorcycle in traffic. And, in my opinion, "doing everything right" should include not only the bare minumum to be legal, but employing all the known best practices to minimize one's exposure to the errors of others. That's why there are books and classes on this stuff. Again it is not rocket science, but it's also not as simple as most people seem to think.

Attorney, right?:)

Me? An attorney? Hardly - though I've been told I should have been more than once...

Well, if you told her she did everything right because she had, based on what you had taught her, that's one thing.

But you told us, in the OP, that she did everything right. That's something else again.

Riding a bicycle in traffic is not rocket science, but it's also not trivial. "Doing everything right" is arguably harder than "doing everything right" while driving a car or motorcycle in traffic. And, in my opinion, "doing everything right" should include not only the bare minumum to be legal, but employing all the known best practices to minimize one's exposure to the errors of others. That's why there are books and classes on this stuff. Again it is not rocket science, but it's also not as simple as most people seem to think.

I don't think the girl did anything wrong. She was in the right side of the roadway in the correct lane(not on the sidewalk) going straight; the driver entering the roadway failed to yield to her.

Yes, her position in the lane was farther right than we adult cyclists would prefer to use for the purpose of visibility and maneuvering space at a junction. However, lateral positioning is a balance of concerns about intersecting traffic and same-direction traffic. I find it credible to believe that the same-direction traffic on a high speed road could be equally dangerous to a ten-year-old cycling at slow speed as the intersection traffic.

The motorist blew through the crosswalk and failed to stop before entering the roadway. Certainly, this hazard cannot be fixed by sidewalk bike paths/sidewalk cycling or bike lane striping. But operating farther into the high speed roadway creates undesirable friction with high speed motor traffic. Some roads are really unpleasant for low-speed cycling, and some motorists are unsafe for everybody.

I think the most effective fixes for this problem, in terms of child cyclists, are good alertness and braking skill, improved street topology with better alternate low-speed routes, and better law enforcement. All of this is consistent with vehicular cycling, but also considers the special needs of children.

It's time once again to stick this topic into the VC forum, dontcha think?

Yes, her position in the lane was farther right than we adult cyclists would prefer to use for the purpose of visibility and maneuvering space at a junction. However, lateral positioning is a balance of concerns about intersecting traffic and same-direction traffic. I find it credible to believe that the same-direction traffic could be equally dangerous to a ten-year-old cycling at slow speed as the intersection traffic.
And that's where it gets tricky: taking the presence or absence of faster same direction traffic into account when deciding where to position yourself is an important part of "doing everything right". Because the motorist was able to pull out from the right, turn right and proceed in the same direction as the cyclist without an incident with other motor vehicle traffic in that direction, we know there was no other same direction traffic present at the time. Same-direction traffic that is not even there cannot be dangerous. And if it was there, just far enough back to for it to not effect this guy pulling out like he did, then it was far enough back for the cyclists to have been further left at this point too.


The motorist blew through the crosswalk and failed to stop before entering the roadway. It's not clear to me if he failed to stop, or stopped and proceeded without yielding, but in any case, he was clearly in the wrong.


This hazard cannot be fixed by sidewalk bike paths/sidewalk cycling or bike lane striping. But operating farther into the high speed roadway creates undesirable friction with high speed motor traffic. Operating farther into the high speed roadway creates undesirable friction with high speed motor traffic only if the high speed motor traffic is there!


Some roads are really unpleasant for low-speed cycling, and some motorists are unsafe for everybody.

I think the most effective fixes for this problem, in terms of child cyclists, are good alertness and braking skill, improved street topology with better alternate low-speed routes, and better law enforcement. All of this is consistent with vehicular cycling, but also considers the special needs of children. If you don't have the skills for vehicular cycling on a given road, then you should be riding according to ped rules (and at ped/jog speeds). It's no excuse to be doing half-a$$ed VC.

It's time once again to stick this topic into the VC forum, dontcha think?

Or "Recreational and Family?"

I think this thread raises lots of issues for both family cycling and safety concerns, including street topology, lack of alternate routes, poor motorist behavior, law enforcement, and the skillsets/maturity of children.

Hello,
My children, 8 and 11, and I must ride bicycles together on very busy suburban roads and I would like some advice on how to do this most safely. When I am alone, I ride in the street and am very comfortable there. I have tried riding that way with my daughter, the older child, but it soon proved unsafe and I haven't dared to try it with both children. She and I were riding together and she was in front. It didn't take long for her to get spooked, and almost hit, by a car shooting out too far in a right turn lane without so much as looking at who might already be there. She did everything right but it was still almost ugly.

So now we ride on sidewalks together. We wind up stopping at almost every driveway and dismount and use the crosswalk at every controlled intersection. I won't let them ride through a crosswalk and I don't feel secure letting them ride in the street so the whole thing feels very schizophrenic and annoying to me. There are very few 'mid-mile' lower traffic streets to use and the few that exist generally terminate in uncontrolled crossings of 5 lanes of traffic. Any advice?

The way my father taught me to ride in traffic was to start out riding in our neighborhood and eventually out on a park bike path. It was there where I learned to handle the bike and ride in a straight line. He then started taking us out on roads; slowly at first. One time I distinctly remember, we were riding from our elementry school, and we were faced with making a left turn onto an arterial. He asked me: "so, do you want to do it the correct way and on the right side of the road (we would later have to make a second left to get into our neighborhood street), or do you want to do it wrong and ride on the left side of the road. I wasn't confident and told him I wanted to ride on the left side of the road; and we did that. He didn't push me beyond my limits of skill and confidence, but at the same time, instilled in me the wrongness of what we were doing at that moment.

Later on, my family would take rides to the nearby town, and later on, to a classy old fashioned soda fountain in a town further away. These were, perhaps, 20-30 miles, all told, and we treated them as day trips. The roads were all rural backroads, and I don't ever remember being threatened on these roads.

I particularly remember having to cross a bridge over a river which was narrow enough that schoolbuses were regularly getting their mirrors taken off, and large trucks had to stop and wait until there were no other cars coming the opposite way to cross. At some point, my father taught me and my brother to cross riding "vehicularly" to get to the fishladder on the other side.

In highschool, I never rode to school, but I would ride to my summer job as a lifeguard at a swimmingpool along a rural highway. My father's advice was to "ride 12 inches to the left of the white fog line". There were no intersections except for some driveways every once in a while. By college, I was introduced to destination lane positioning by Mr. Forester in his book. I was not aware of his style or his advocacy because I only read chapter 4! I consummed everything on the web about cycling advocacy, particularly vehicular cycling. A few years ago, I finally got a real permanant address which I actually live at, and now have more experience than ever at bicycle commuting, and pendulum started swinging back toward the middle ground, keeping the techniques taught by Vehicular Cyclists while seeing the benefit of bike lanes and quieter cycling techniques that other, non-branded cyclists use.

My life story in a pinch.

If you don't have the skills for vehicular cycling on a given road, then you should be riding according to ped rules (and at ped/jog speeds). It's no excuse to be doing half-a$$ed VC.

Taking the lane at junctions is not vehicular cycling. Taking the lane at junctions is a defensive driving technique that is merely consistent with vehicular cycling.

I believe riding on the right side of the roadway in the normal direction of traffic is generally better (safer and more efficient) than riding on the sidewalk. Sidewalk users have much greater conflicts of this kind than do roadway cyclists.

I disagree that vehicular cycing is not useful enough to practice unless one always takes the lane at junctions. Taking the lane is usually better than not, but not taking the lane is still better than pedestrian-on-wheels cycling.

Not all bad cyclist-motorist interactions can be eliminated by being more assertive in the lane. This fact does not reduce the usefulness of operating according to vehicular rules.

Advice to the OP in a nutshell:

1) Stay within your childrens' abilities and confidence levels. Don't let anyone tell you when your children can go out on the road; only you can know that.

2) Before going out on the road, have them ride bike paths where they are forced to learn to ride a straight line out of the presence of cars. Straight line riding is essential.

3) Take them on lots of pleasure rides outside the city, on roads where there are no intersections. Take another adult along (wifey works best) and have your children ride between you two. This gets them used to being passed by cars. Works best if there is icecream and treats at the turnaround point ;).

4) Only after they can ride a straight line and can be passed by cars can you take them out onto busy streets.

Mmmmm, Brown & Root food !!!!



Children think differently than adults. For example, my 17 year old nephew just joined the military believing there's no way he'll go to Iraq, believing he'll make 70K a year and because, get this, because he hates the government. Tell me kid's brains work the same as adults!

Thanks, Brian. Unfortunately, we are in a position of riding because we need to get somewhere and not just for fun. Your advice is still good and I'll get a video as was suggested and do training in a park and on residential streets. For our current transportation needs, it looks like using sidewalks and becoming pedestrians at crossings is our best, safest bet. Over in 'Car-Free', there is a video of bike facilities in Europe and even in Columbia which is amazing. It really saddens and angers me that, in the US, the car is king and very little is done to equalize safe transportation for those for whom the car is not an option. I commute about 9 miles each way by bicycle and about 3 or more miles of that trip are spent zig-zagging around to stay on lower-speed lower-traffic routes. I also use the bus to take the kids on longer outings. We have to walk over a mile just to get on a bus. In Phoenix, that can get pretty unpleasant at times. At least my kids are learning to be patient and resourceful.

Taking the lane at junctions is not vehicular cycling. Taking the lane at junctions is a defensive driving technique that is merely consistent with vehicular cycling. Taking the lane (when going straight) at junctions is certainly consistent with best practices as taught by Forester (destination positioning) and what is taught about proper motorcycle/motorscooter positioning at junctions in motorcycle safety courses and manuals.



I believe riding on the right side of the roadway in the normal direction of traffic is generally better (safer and more efficient) than riding on the sidewalk. Sidewalk users have much greater conflicts of this kind than do roadway cyclists. Yes, riding in the "right turn zone" of the lane at junctions is also better than riding on the other side of the street against traffic, that doesn't mean it's riding in accordance to the vehicular rules of the road.


I disagree that vehicular cycing is not useful enough to practice unless one always takes the lane at junctions. I never said one should ALWAYS take the lane at junctions. One should do it whenever there is a chance for conflict (as there clearly was in this case), and especially when no faster same direction traffic is present than can "block" for you (as also was the case here). But I realize this not explicitly part of the Road 1/2 curricula. It should be, as it is derived from the basic destination positioning principle.


Taking the lane is usually better than not, but not taking the lane is still better than pedestrian-on-wheels cycling. Agreed, but "not taking the lane" is all too often not good enough. Case in point.


Not all bad cyclist-motorist interactions can be eliminated by being more assertive in the lane. This fact does not reduce the usefulness of operating according to vehicular rules. Agreed.

Yes, riding in the "right turn zone" of the lane at junctions is also better than riding on the other side of the street against traffic, that doesn't mean it's riding in accordance to the vehicular rules of the road.

I never said one should ALWAYS take the lane at junctions. One should do it whenever there is a chance for conflict (as there clearly was in this case), and especially when no faster same direction traffic is present than can "block" for you (as also was the case here). But I realize this not explicitly part of the Road 1/2 curricula. It should be, as it is derived from the basic destination positioning principle.


It is not clear from the description of the junction with the exit ramp that a right turn is even allowed from the cyclists' direction of travel. The cyclist was traveling straight in a through lane; since we are not talking about a right hook, I think the issue is not destination positioning, but general conspicuity.

I infer from the description that the motorist exiting the freeway turned right-on-red (without stopping) from a right-turn only lane in order to enter the roadway the cyclists were using. If I am correct, the cyclist had already passed the point in the intersection where a right-hook could be an issue.

Therefore, I infer this to be a law enforcement issue (RTOR without stopping) as well as a conspicuity issue (small bicyclist, rightward roadway positioning, motorist misjudgement may have combined) and a road design issue (right turn only lane that encourages turning without stopping; freeway barrier lacking enough crossing locations to provide adequate alternate low-volume routes).

Advice to the OP in a nutshell:

1) Stay within your children's abilities and confidence levels. Don't let anyone tell you when your children can go out on the road; only you can know that.

2) Before going out on the road, have them ride bike paths where they are forced to learn to ride a straight line out of the presence of cars. Straight line riding is essential.

3) Take them on lots of pleasure rides outside the city, on roads where there are no intersections. Take another adult along (wifey works best) and have your children ride between you two. This gets them used to being passed by cars. Works best if there is icecream and treats at the turnaround point ;).

4) Only after they can ride a straight line and can be passed by cars can you take them out onto busy streets.


While I generally agree with Brian Ratliff's point of view, there are times where all the advice doesn't readily apply. For instance, in my case, there are a few busy streets to deal with close to home, and there is actually lots of interesting rides to do in the urban area. Here is what worked in our case.

1. Make sure the child knows the difference between right and left. There is no better way to try it than on a bike path where you have a Y fork with two interesting options: tell the child to go right and see what happens.
When dealing with children (mine or friends), I found it easy to direct a child if she knows what you say, and almost impossible to do if the child hesitates between sides.

2. At first, I usually stopped before tricky intersections and explained in detail how to deal with the intersection. That briefing usually worked fine.

3. In our neighbourhood, we have one or two "right lane must turn right" situations. I usually dealt with them in either of these two ways:
– We stop before the critical point, wait for a clearing in traffic, then cross the right-turning lane and continue. Or
– We do like a left turn: in two steps.
We don't have extra right-turning lanes added on the right, but I suspect we would have dealt with them roughly the same way.

In other words, I tend to avoid traffic merges for three reasons:
– lack of skills (I want herto be able to assess traffic before she merges by herself);
– lack of speed (it's a bit inconsiderate to ask people to stay for too long behind a cyclist going at 5-10 km/h);
– lack of visibility (a young cyclist on 20" wheels is not that visible).

4. With my oldest daughter, I found that I had no problem riding with her in traffic when she was 7 years old... providing it didn't last too long. Better ride for 0,5 km on a really busy street than for 5 km on a so-so street. I'll have to see how things go with my youngest. She just turned 7, but hardly keeps her balance on the bike; though usually, when she starts something, she goes 110%.