Rather strangly written article on paying lawyers vice the fines for traffic tickets... The thing that gauls me is that here is someone that obviously has money, and choses to pay a lawyer so he can get out of traffic tickets when he zips around town at too high a speed in his fancy sports car.
I guess the idea of driving the speed limit or less never occured to this selfish JAM. Nope, just whip out the checkbook and pay the price for your little E ticket ride.
Gee are speed limits only for those that can't afford fancy sports cars or what. What an attitude.
Wonder what this guy is going to do if he plows into someone in his "toy?"
When you get a traffic ticket you have a choice to either pay it or fight it.
A growing number of people are choosing to fight, and are hiring lawyers and taking their cases to court.
A few days a week, you can find Chapman Ducote in his sports car.
?It's a very rare car, but it is typical classic Ferrari style. Front engine. Roadster style," said Ducote.
It is a style that is cramped when Ducote receives the occasional traffic ticket.
?They're mainly speeding violations," said Ducote.
When Ducote is issued a ticket, he calls a traffic lawyer whose practice is often devoted to tickets.
A growing number of drivers are hiring traffic lawyers who deal with everything from non-moving violations, to speeding, to DUIs.
?We've handled, in the last twenty years, over 500,000 tickets. Currently, we're doing over 1,000 tickets a week," said lawyer Mark Gold.
Many believe if you hire an attorney, you might beat the ticket.
?Sometimes we'll get you no points, no traffic school, which is really important cause it won't affect your insurance," said Gold.
Rates vary, but hiring a ticket lawyer now costs as little as $70.
Jim Baxter with the National Motorists Association said that is nothing compared to the price of paying a ticket up front.
?A simple ticket can raise premiums on your insurance for a $100 to $300 per year. If you have multiple vehicles and multiple drivers, it can be of significant consequence," said Baxter.
Why not just fight a ticket on your own?
Traffic lawyers insist they know the players and how to zero in on any errors.
?For example, the most typical speeding ticket is radar. There's a whole chapter of rules and regulations that talk about how an officer has to write a radar ticket," said Baxter.
AAA said there is no research proving traffic attorneys are any more successful than the average person, but many drivers said it is the way to go.
If you receive a traffic ticket and want to contest it, experts advised to make sure you contact a traffic lawyer within 30 days, otherwise you risk losing your license.
pj7
03-26-07, 10:38 AM
...and they call it, the justice system
Treespeed
03-26-07, 10:39 AM
Gene, don't tell me that you're so naive that you didn't realize that there were special rules for the rich?
supertj
03-26-07, 10:39 AM
I don't follow the speed limits in my Hyundai. Most people don't.
Most people don't drive excessively over the limit also.
Speedo
03-26-07, 10:39 AM
That's disheartening.
Helmet Head
03-26-07, 10:54 AM
It's good to have a small percentage having the resources to be legal sticklers and keeping the cops honest. It's an important checks and balances part of our justice system.
kalliergo
03-26-07, 11:04 AM
When the roads are shared by hordes of vehicular cyclists, they will slow down.
chipcom
03-26-07, 11:17 AM
When the roads are shared by hordes of vehicular cyclists, they will slow down.
Yep, sure slowed em down in China. :rolleyes:
So when are the hordes gonna take over? I want to be sure to get my Capital One card in time.
WHAT'S IN YOUR SEATBAG! :lol:
genec
03-26-07, 11:20 AM
You got all of that class envy above from that simple article?
If someone gets a ticket (insert discussion about revenue generation vs. actual traffic safety here) and they actually do the math many will consider not only the amount of the ticket but impacts on insurance rates when making their decision to fight the ticket (by themselves or by hiring an attorney).
$70 for an attorney to fight a ticket doesn't seem like an amount that is out of reach of "those that can't afford fancy sports cars."
If that firm is truly doing 1,000 tickets a week, there must be a very large population of people out there who can afford "fancy sports cars."
No, I got the "class envy" from these statements:
"...but it is typical classic Ferrari style. Front engine. Roadster style," said Ducote.
It is a style that is cramped when Ducote receives the occasional traffic ticket.
They're mainly speeding violations," said Ducote."
Especially the bolded part. Obviously he doesn't give a hoot about the "occasional traffic ticket...," "mainly speeding violations," when out in his "Ferrari style."
Typical "I own the road" attitude.... coupled with a sprinkling of "and damn the rest... "
deputyjones
03-26-07, 11:21 AM
I am sure they posted on an internet forum somewhere about how they were harassed by the police for no reason too.
genec
03-26-07, 11:33 AM
You have issues.
Yup, I do... with motorists who blatently chose to not co-operate in the same rules as the rest of us.
Sorry, but our traffic system is built on rules and co-operation... otherwise it is a free for all.
Those that believe they are above the rules and can just "buy their way out," are part of the problem.
pj7
03-26-07, 11:42 AM
I am sure they posted on an internet forum somewhere about how they were harassed by the police for no reason too.
yeah
the man is ALWAYS messin with us!
pj7
03-26-07, 11:44 AM
Yup, I do... with motorists who blatently chose to not co-operate in the same rules as the rest of us.
Sorry, but our traffic system is built on rules and co-operation... otherwise it is a free for all.
Those that believe they are above the rules and can just "buy their way out," are part of the problem.
Funny you should say that because there is a whole culture it seems based around it.
Open any phonebook, go to the lawyers section, and count how many DUI Lawyer adds you'll find that guarantee you'll keep your license, so long as you "pay their fee". But if you can't afford their secret voodoo hoodoo, then you're out of luck.
Shiznaz
03-26-07, 11:44 AM
Reminds me of my dad (on his ducati), and every other person I know with a sports car. Don't you know it's considered cruelty to animals not to let those ponies run free every now and then?
genec
03-26-07, 11:45 AM
Funny you should say that because there is a whole culture it seems based around it.
Open any phonebook, go to the lawyers section, and count how many DUI Lawyer adds you'll find that guarantee you'll keep your license, so long as you "pay their fee". But if you can't afford their secret voodoo hoodoo, then you're out of luck.
Maybe that is why we end up with motorists with 28 DUIs...
kalliergo
03-26-07, 12:10 PM
Yep, sure slowed em down in China. :rolleyes:
So when are the hordes gonna take over? I want to be sure to get my Capital One card in time.
WHAT'S IN YOUR SEATBAG! :lol:
You have such a sharp and subtle sense of humor, Chip. Is it any wonder that so many here want to be just like you if they grow up?
genec
03-26-07, 12:13 PM
There are those issues again, assuming that people who speed think that they are above the rules and categorizing their lawful use of the legal system as "buying their way out."
Just keep being a defender of those that chose to violate laws for their own entertainment, Pete....
Meanwhile, those like me, will try to do our best to stay within the agreed upon limits of the law.
Roughstuff
03-26-07, 12:18 PM
I don't follow the speed limits in my Hyundai. Most people don't.
Most people don't drive excessively over the limit also.
I *do* and I *don't*. If it is a residential area, I really do follow the limits, because there may be children god knows where, and I wouldn't want people driving fast down the street where I live, which is residential. At NIGHT, when the kids should be at home and IN BED (:)) I can understand people who go faster.
On highways I don't go much over 60 MPH even in 65 mph zones. I don't like the way my car handles at those higher speeds. If people wanna pass me, let em go ahead. If they are stuck in 'traffic' behind me, the heck with 'em.
Whether they pay lawyers or the state makes no difference to me, as long as speeders are surcharged for the laws they break in a reasonable and proportionate fashion.
roughstuff
AlmostTrick
03-26-07, 12:22 PM
It's good to have a small percentage having the resources to be legal sticklers and keeping the cops honest. It's an important checks and balances part of our justice system.
Yep, there's a big problem... dishonest cops giving poor innocent drivers unwarranted speeding citations. :rolleyes:
Those of us with actual excellent driving records find it appalling that some people think it's ok to just buy their way to a clean record.
genec
03-26-07, 02:06 PM
You're assuming that the people described in the story chose to violate the laws for their own entertainment. Where's the proof?
Some people certainly choose to speed for their own entertainment. Driving fast can be very fun. Having written that, it also does not have to needlessly endanger other people, although some people make selfish choices and do just that.
Certainly you can't think that anything other than a very small percentage of speeding tickets fall under the "entertainment" umbrella, can you?
So you have blatantly chosen to not "co-operate in the same rules as the rest of us" (still looking for that "rest of us" definition BTW) by breaking the rules of the road while riding your bike.
Aren't you being a bit hypocritical with your rant?
As someone who thinks that "it is very likely for the user of a powerful motorvehicle to cause grief to others" it's obvious that you truly do have issues.
Pete, your user icon says it all.
And no, I have not blatently chosen to not co-operate in the same rules as the rest of the law abiding citizens out there that also chose to obey the rules... otherwise known as "the rest of us."
And if read the article, you would see that the driver of the sports car choses to do so only a few days of the week... and obviously for entertainment value as "It is a style that is cramped... "
Oh BTW, ever come up with a real reason for any motorist to really need to do 0-60 in 5.5 seconds?
Helmet Head
03-26-07, 02:38 PM
Yep, there's a big problem... dishonest cops giving poor innocent drivers unwarranted speeding citations. :rolleyes:
Those of us with actual excellent driving records find it appalling that some people think it's ok to just buy their way to a clean record.
I don't have any first hand knowledge about unwarranted speeding citations (all mine were warranted!), but I know I got an unwarranted citation for running a stop sign once, a stop sign at which I and my passenger knew I stopped. I didn't hire a lawyer, but I had to have the sense to take pictures from the position of the officer in his car towards the intersection to show that his view of the stop line was obscured, and that he couldn't know whether I stopped or not.
I was on a jury once where a poor older guy was on trial for drunk driving. It seemed like a slam dunk after we heard the prosecution/police story: Police were parked at a 7/11. Guy parks next to them, stumbles out of the car, walks over to them and starts talking incomprehensibly. Flunks the test.
Then we heard the defense story: The guy lives in an apartment across the street from the 7/11 and always has parking problems there. He knows he's not allowed to park in the 7/11 lot, so he does his best on the street. This day he goes out to buy a buy a 6-pack of talls and a pint of whiskey and comes home to watch a basketball game. No parking on the street, but he sees that if he can get the restaurant at the corner to move their truck, it will make room for him. So he parks at the 7/11 and walks to the restaurant to ask them to move the truck. They're too busy, maybe later. So he goes upstairs to his place to watch the game. At half time the whisky and most of the beers are gone, and he looks across the street and sees a cop car in the 7/11 lot. He decides to go and ask them to help him get the restaurant to move the truck and park his car. After all, "to protect and serve" is what it says on the side of the car. He walks up to the cops pointing at his car, the street, and asking for help, and they arrest him.
On cross, the two cops testified differently as to how many cars were in the 7/11 lot when they pulled in (one said none, the other said two).
Deliberations took a few minutes. Not one person had any doubt about the innocence of this guy. But he's lucky he drew a good public defender lawyer who took the time to figure out what happened.
It is critical to our justice system that cops know they have to prove their case, and that if they screw up, some lawyer will probably catch it.
chipcom
03-26-07, 02:41 PM
It is critical to our justice system that cops know they have to prove their case, and that if they screw up, some lawyer will probably catch it.
Like they don't know that already? :rolleyes:
dynaryder
03-26-07, 02:49 PM
It's good to have a small percentage having the resources to be legal sticklers and keeping the cops honest. It's an important checks and balances part of our justice system.
Huh? You're kidding right? This isn't about cops writing bad tickets or running speed traps. It's about people using slick lawyers to reduce fines,keep from getting points,and getting out of DUI's.
genec
03-26-07, 02:53 PM
Huh? You're kidding right? This isn't about cops writing bad tickets or running speed traps. It's about people using slick lawyers to reduce fines,keep from getting points,and getting out of DUI's.
+100.
Helmet Head
03-26-07, 03:01 PM
Huh? You're kidding right? This isn't about cops writing bad tickets or running speed traps. It's about people using slick lawyers to reduce fines,keep from getting points,and getting out of DUI's.
No, I'm not kidding.
There is a very fine line between slick lawyers catching cops writing bad tickets and slick lawyers getting people out of fines, points and DUIs. Can you say double-edged sword?
Our adversarial system is the worst justice system humans have ever conceived, except for all the others.
Helmet Head
03-26-07, 03:04 PM
Like they don't know that already? :rolleyes:
Of course they know it. And we want them to keep knowing it. There is nothing wrong with lawers doing whatever they can, that's legal, to get their clients off. It's how our adversial system of justice works.
Rather strangly written article on paying lawyers vice the fines for traffic tickets... The thing that gauls me is that here is someone that obviously has money, and choses to pay a lawyer so he can get out of traffic tickets when he zips around town at too high a speed in his fancy sports car.
I guess the idea of driving the speed limit or less never occured to this selfish JAM. Nope, just whip out the checkbook and pay the price for your little E ticket ride.
Gee are speed limits only for those that can't afford fancy sports cars or what. What an attitude.
Wonder what this guy is going to do if he plows into someone in his "toy?"
Where does it say it was "too high a speed"? Above speed limit doesn't necessarily translates to "too high a speed" or unsafe driving. I think you are adding your own prejudice to this article.
genec
03-26-07, 03:22 PM
Where does it say it was "too high a speed"? Above speed limit doesn't necessarily translates to "too high a speed" or unsafe driving. I think you are adding your own prejudice to this article.
Check your local laws for reference to the words "Speed Limit," and excessive speeds.
Yeah, I am as prejudice as the cop writing the ticket... sigh... :rolleyes:
UmneyDurak
03-26-07, 03:37 PM
Check your local laws for reference to the words "Speed Limit," and excessive speeds.
Yeah, I am as prejudice as the cop writing the ticket... sigh... :rolleyes:
Here you go: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/pgs19thru22.htm
"too high a speed" and "excessive speeds" imply dangerous driving, which article mentioned nothing about. As I said earlier driving above speed limit doesn't necessarily translates too dangerous driving. You are assuming too much.
genec
03-26-07, 03:46 PM
Here you go: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/pgs19thru22.htm
"too high a speed" and "excessive speeds" imply dangerous driving, which article mentioned nothing about. As I said earlier driving above speed limit doesn't necessarily translates too dangerous driving. You are assuming too much.
Be sure to take that handbook to court with you when the judge whips out his copy of the CVC, to whit:
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22348.htm
22348. (a) Notwithstanding subdivision (b) of Section 22351, a person shall not drive a vehicle upon a highway with a speed limit established pursuant to Section 22349 or 22356 at a speed greater than that speed limit.
Have a nice day.
UmneyDurak
03-26-07, 03:52 PM
Be sure to take that handbook to court with you when the judge whips out his copy of the CVC, to whit:
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22348.htm
Have a nice day.
Again you are missing the point. I am not arguing whether what he did is legal or not. What I am saying is your emotional rant put your own spin on the whole citation and implied he was driving dangerously. Which article says nothing about.
genec
03-26-07, 04:02 PM
Again you are missing the point. I am not arguing whether what he did is legal or not. What I am saying is your emotional rant put your own spin on the whole citation and implied he was driving dangerously. Which article says nothing about.
I never used the word dangerously... I did say at "excessive speed," which is exactly what the law states... so who exactly is "putting spin on it?"
Sounds like you infered something on your own there mr spin doctor.
Treespeed
03-26-07, 04:04 PM
Be sure to take that handbook to court with you when the judge whips out his copy of the CVC, to whit:
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22348.htm
Have a nice day.
Gene,
Living in So Cal you have got to be kidding. Really, every person driving over 65 on the freeway is unsafe and dangerous. That's quite an extrapolation. Have you driven on the freeway lately? Or do all the folks passing you at 80mph while you huddle in the right lane make you dizzy with anger?:D
sgtsmile
03-26-07, 04:09 PM
Thing about speed and what is safe or not vs what is legal or not is that it depends on conditions. What is legal or not is like a switch - it is on or off. It is legal or illegal. What is safe, well, that is more like a dimmer switch: there are many variables.
For example, it is perfectly safe to bomb down the 401 in Ontario around London at 140kmph IF the traffic is light and the weather conditions are good and your car can handle it. It is totally illegal to do so though, the limit is 100kmph. If it is the middle of January, and there is a blizzard blowing, it is still perfectly legal to do 100kmph even though it is mindblowingly stupid to do so. Then, 100 is NOT safe.
By the same token, it is perfectly legal to do 50kmph on residential streets in Ontario (unless otherwise signed) but in MANY cases, that is too fast and a driver to be SAFE needs to slow down.
Automatically assuming the limit is safe is false. A person can be driving dangerously (as in, going to fast - I am not talking about other dangerous behaviours) well below the limit, and be safe well above it. It depends on what the conditions are (and conditions include everything from kind of car, kind of driver, proximity of other traffic - including bikes, peds, parked cars, and other moving vehicles -, how tired a person is, sun angle, time of day, direction of travel, and so on and so on.) Conditions however have nothing to do with how legal a behaviour is. That is determined by your law makers. If you don't like the law, vote in a different law maker or take your chances. This also applies to anyone on a bike or walking as well. Dont come whining here with your "unjust" ticket you got on your bike when your behaviour is just as illegal as a car driver's is even if your running a stop sign is "safe" in your eyes. Safe in that case is not the issue, the law is.
genec
03-26-07, 04:15 PM
Gene,
Living in So Cal you have got to be kidding. Really, every person driving over 65 on the freeway is unsafe and dangerous. That's quite an extrapolation. Have you driven on the freeway lately? Or do all the folks passing you at 80mph while you huddle in the right lane make you dizzy with anger?:D
Oh, stay out of the right lane...
I usually use the #3 lane and go 65 without any issues what so ever. Them speedsters tend to go bumper to bumper in the number one lane and think they are actually getting somewhere faster. The joke is I arrive at about the same time with a lot less stress. The whole speed thing is an illusion, especially in So Cal traffic... speeders just get to the next bumper faster. It is actually quite amusing to watch... motorists zipping ahead just to get right on someone's bumper and then drive in the pack for a while... I tortise right up to them, they find some tiny break in traffic somewhere and zoom ahead to the next bumper... I tortise right on up.
On an open hiway such as 15 to Vegas, there is probably some advantage to driving fast... but in So Cal, it is a joke.
The other thing that amazes me is how so many in BF want to use Freeway examples for city street traffic.
The odds of anyone being pulled over on a Freeway for "excessive speed" are pretty low... but on surface streets, where the roads are shared with pedestrians and cyclists... that is another story.
Drive how you want on the freeway. Drive properly on the surface streets... you know where those other things also exist that have been mentioned in this thread... stop signs, traffic lights, cyclists.
sgtsmile
03-26-07, 04:25 PM
Where exactly in the Yahoo article does it describe the "Ferrari guy" driving on city streets?
Based upon the way you describe your driving style, you're a left lane blocker and are violating the law.
I think genec means the right lane is the "#3" lane and the left lane is #1.
genec
03-26-07, 04:40 PM
But he claims that he stays out of the right lane, perhaps lane #4 in his story. It really depends upon the freeway.
If he's tortoising in the #3 lane while traffic passes him on both sides, he needs to merge right.
The number one lane is the left most lane, and the number 4 lane is usually full of motorists merging on and off the freeway, usually doing less than 65MPH, so the number 3 lane becomes the right place for folks abiding by the speed limit.
As far as the Yahoo article, not many speeding tickets are issued for freeway speeding. The article does state "For example, the most typical speeding ticket is radar." Radar is never used on the freeways in California. Things are pretty "lassiez faire" there. Radar is often used on surface streets... you know, where cyclists ride and pedestrians walk.
noisebeam
03-26-07, 04:46 PM
The number one lane is the left most lane, and the number 4 lane is usually full of motorists merging on and off the freeway, usually doing less than 65MPH, so the number 3 lane becomes the right place for folks abiding by the speed limit.
That tends to be where I drive, one lane in from outside lane on urban true freeways (where on/off ramps frequent) On rural freeways, usually the outside lane.
Al
genec
03-26-07, 04:49 PM
Not many?
954,166 speeding tickets written only by the CHP in 2002 for example.
Is 954,166 truly "not many" in your world?
Compare and constrast to speeding tickets written by all the city police departments in the whole state.
Tell me how many of those CHP tickets involved the use of radar, as mentioned in the story.
Tell me about your cycling experience.
Helmet Head
03-26-07, 04:58 PM
Tell me you don't drive 65 when everyone else is going 80.
The whole static "speed limit" concept is absurd on freeways. Germany has it figured out. On their autobahns they have dynamically configured speed limit signs. It might be 60 km/h, or it might be unspecified (no speed limit), depending on the situation and conditions.
But the speed of others around you is probably a very good (but not perfect) rule of thumb for the appropriate speed for current conditions on freeways.
Here's a link to the story, with a video clip attached. Check out the ferrari-dude's styled hair...
Helmet Head
03-26-07, 05:01 PM
"CHP officers have been using radar guns to clock vehicle speeds on stretches of Interstates 5 and 15 for years, but now they will start using them on all other local freeways..." vs. "Radar is never used on the freeways in California."
Gene did not say radar is never used on the freeways in California.
zeytoun
03-26-07, 05:05 PM
Tell me you don't drive 65 when everyone else is going 80.
The whole static "speed limit" concept is absurd on freeways. Germany has it figured out. On their autobahns they have dynamically configured speed limit signs. It might be 60 km/h, or it might be unspecified (no speed limit), depending on the situation and conditions.
But the speed of others around you is probably a very good (but not perfect) rule of thumb for the appropriate speed for current conditions on freeways.
I go 65 on the freeway around here. I'm not a sheep. I agree in principle on the static speed limit. However, Germany's drivers are more experienced, more rigorously tested. And a German driving fast on the autobahn also doesn't listen to the radio or talk on his cell-phone like so many here in San Diego. You can go any speed you like, but I like 65. I stay out of the fast lane.
genec
03-26-07, 05:13 PM
Gene did not say radar is never used on the freeways in California.
I did say this and now stand corrected. This indeed was part of my assumptions about where the speedster was driving.
Either way it still breaks down to someone buying their way out of tickets. I suppose if Pete wants to support that sort of mentality, that is his choice. We can clearly see were he stands on approving motorists driving at excessive speeds.
BTW Pete, don't forget the rest of the article: Speeding is the No. 1 cause of traffic accidents, Bailey said.
chipcom
03-26-07, 05:23 PM
Horsecrap aside, I think the problem comes from drivers doing too many miles on too many freeways. Think about it, when you get off the freeway (having been on it for more than the last exit), how slow does it feel to do the speed limit in your local arterials and residential streets? How hard is it to catch yourself, gather some patience and slow down? I could care less how fast people want to drive on the freeways, but when you get off, slow the frack down and obey the freakin speed limits...there's people and kids and pets and CYCLISTS around.
Helmet Head
03-26-07, 05:31 PM
Either way it still breaks down to someone buying their way out of tickets. I suppose if Pete wants to support that sort of mentality, that is his choice. We can clearly see were he stands on approving motorists driving at excessive speeds.
I think it's very disrespectful and unappreciative of our justice system to characterize the inherent consquences of the adversarial system as "it still breaks down to someone buying their way...".
Unless they're paying off judges and/or jurors, it is a gross mischaracterization to say they are buying their way out. They are buying a good legitimate defense. It is a crucial aspect of our system, and it's sad how many in our society buy the hype and do not appreciate it for what it is, what it accomplishes, and the critical role it plays.
I support someone's legal right to contest a ticket using our legal system. If you have a problem with our legal system, you should work to change it.
:beer:
genec
03-26-07, 05:31 PM
Driving fast can be very fun. Having written that, it also does not have to needlessly endanger other people, although some people make selfish choices and do just that.
Speeding is the No. 1 cause of traffic accidents....
Helmet Head
03-26-07, 05:35 PM
Speeding is the No. 1 cause of traffic accidents....
No, speeding at the wrong place at the wrong time is the No. 1 cause of traffic accidents.
Speeding when and where it is safe to speed does not cause any traffic accidents, by definition.
zeytoun
03-26-07, 05:46 PM
The number 1 cause of traffic accidents is driving a car.
zeytoun
03-26-07, 05:47 PM
The No. 1 leading cause is driver error
Technically, it is speeding, because the driver was going too fast for their skill set. If they were going 0 they wouldn't have hit anything :p