At the risk of missing out on a Brompton-esque bike from Downtube, my vote would be for company stability. If such a bike would stretch the company out too far, I'd say forget about it and stick with incremental upgrades on existing models. I'd rather see the company still around in 5 years' time, than see a flurry of new (but afterwards unsupported) models.

Yan, have you really received that much interest in 26" DT folders? I confess that I'm a bit biased towards the smaller wheels, so it's hard for me to imagine branching out to a bike that's less portable than the others.

If you're going to make a Brompton knockoff, use the the 8 speed hub period. Do not use the derailuer system the Brompton uses today.

Flamingo has already done that. I don't know what happened after last year Interbike. They came on so strong.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=233363&highlight=flamingo

At the risk of missing out on a Brompton-esque bike from Downtube, my vote would be for company stability. If such a bike would stretch the company out too far, I'd say forget about it and stick with incremental upgrades on existing models. I'd rather see the company still around in 5 years' time, than see a flurry of new (but afterwards unsupported) models.

Yan, have you really received that much interest in 26" DT folders? I confess that I'm a bit biased towards the smaller wheels, so it's hard for me to imagine branching out to a bike that's less portable than the others.

I recieved enough interest to justify giving it a long hard look. I also prefer smaller wheeled bikes....I'm curious to see how well it works as well.

Thanks,
Yan

NeoBromp's mistake in Europe is that they tried to import exactly the same design as licensed from Brompton. WTH did they think would happen?? The judge probably didn't want to to allow NeoBromp to dodge its contractual obligation by using a strawman corp.... but Brompton should have prohibited such an easy dodge by contract (e.g., "no affiliates of Neo-Bike will import the licensed copies into Europe").

When the design can be changed, and a design element is non-functional, a "copyright design-around" is used to avoid the briar patch NeoBromp naively entered. As for functional parts, US copyright law has a feature called "single method exception", coming from the software world. If there is arguably only a single cost-effective way to provide a certain function, that way does not infringe the copyright of another. This comes from the public policy of not allowing copyright law to extend to functional protection.

That is interesting. I understand--or I should write, I think I understand--the difference between copyrights and patents. At the time, we had a discussion about this and wondered why Merc seems to have avoided these legal issues (to our knowledge). If I recall correctly, the end question was "how different do the bikes have to be before copyright no longer applies?" But I guess Flamingo and/or Yan have this covered.

Of course, US law and European law are different animals. But one would think that they are based on similar ideas.

we will sell adjustable height stem kits in about 2 weeks

Thanks,
Yan

Good news. Thanks for the reply Yan.

I will only do a clone if:

#3 Noone else has done it
FYI, I believe Breezer is now doing a 3-speed Brompton clone:

http://www.breezerbikes.com/bike_details.cfm?bikeType=compact&frame=compact&bike=i3

Saw one in a store the other day, I believe they are around $400.

FYI, I believe Breezer is now doing a 3-speed Brompton clone:

http://www.breezerbikes.com/bike_details.cfm?bikeType=compact&frame=compact&bike=i3

Saw one in a store the other day, I believe they are around $400.

Thanks....glad to see someone else doing it!

Thanks again,
Yan

FYI, I believe Breezer is now doing a 3-speed Brompton clone:

http://www.breezerbikes.com/bike_details.cfm?bikeType=compact&frame=compact&bike=i3

Saw one in a store the other day, I believe they are around $400.

Downtube price, well yes.
Downtube strenght and quality, probably not.
Brompton Fold, close but not there.
Brompton reach, nope (bent toptube but the folding stem is straight.)
Downtube intercompatiblity/upgradable, doubt it.
Brompton seat post locks fold, doesn't look like it.
Downtube 8-9 speed, nope.
Downtube support, nope
32 lbs? I don't own a single seat bike that weighs this much. (claimed)
It probably misses on all the extra's like water bosses, great brakes, and little freebies, etc.

I want one done the Downtube way.

I second Baldone. I think that you would do much better with a Brompton clone than a 26" bike. This forum is the main sales platform for you, no? So, we make a pretty good focus group, I'd think. Perhaps a bit of a strange sample, but hey, selection bias can be a good thing sometimes.

Also, the Breezer is nothing like a Brompton. They have them in a LBS here. We owned a Zag 8 for about 2 days before buying our Downtube. The Zag 8 for us was the best of the Dahon world (Breezer is an OEM). It had Marathon Racers and decent rims but used the sturdy Dahon steel stem (the only one they make that doesn't feel like it's going to give way). The downside? The Dahon frame latch broke as they were working on it at the bike store. They had another bike downstairs with a misaligned latch as well. So, we took a refund and bought our NS for 1/3 the price.

One thing that makes the Downtube great is the frame design, especially the good old Chinese latch. I don't think that Breezer is even trying to build a Brompton clone. If Downtube did, we'd probably finally get around the steel weight problem associated with the Brompton.

Perhaps your trial run could involve just selling the Bromptclone frames?

In fact, you could probably decide based on pre-orders if you wanted!

I second Baldone. I think that you would do much better with a Brompton clone than a 26" bike. This forum is the main sales platform for you, no? So, we make a pretty good focus group, I'd think. Perhaps a bit of a strange sample, but hey, selection bias can be a good thing sometimes.


FWIW, I third this motion. Brompton clone is much more interesting than a big folder. That was the one that caught my attention in the original post.

Also, the Breezer is nothing like a Brompton. They have them in a LBS here. We owned a Zag 8 for about 2 days before buying our Downtube. The Zag 8 for us was the best of the Dahon world (Breezer is an OEM)....
The Breezer i3 != the Zag 8.

Take a closer look at the i3. 16" wheels, same basic frame design as the Brompton, same urethane shock design, similar rack, tiny wheels on the rack so it can roll easy. I haven't watched anyone fold it, but since the hinges are in almost the same spot, I suspect it's pretty close. Even the handlebars have the same basic design.

I doubt it's as good as a Brompton, or that it's identical, but after seeing one in person, I can say it's definitely a Brommie clone.


Downtube strenght and quality, probably not.... Downtube intercompatiblity/upgradable, doubt it. It probably misses on all the extra's like water bosses, great brakes, and little freebies, etc.
Is this based on experience, by the way? Or are you basically saying that because a cheap Brommie clone wasn't done by Downtube, it can't possibly be any good? ;)

Not that I am saying "wow this is a great bike," only that unless you've checked out the bike (unlikely, as indicated by lots of "probably's"), negative comments are not justified.

More importantly is the question of whether there market can support another Brompton clone. DT would not only have to compete against the original Brompton, they'd have to compete against an existing Brompton clone that has at least some US distribution / LBS presence....

I doubt it's as good as a Brompton, or that it's identical, but after seeing one in person, I can say it's definitely a Brommie clone.
I've seen it in person too and it's really more of an evil twin than a clone. Although the I3's folding mechanism is similar to the Brompton, the I3 is one of the biggest, heaviest folders out there. This is the opposite of the Brompton, which is one of the smallest, lightest folders out there.

The I3:
http://www.breezerbikes.com/im/bikes/i3-folded.jpg

The Brompton:
http://www.bromptonbicycle.co.uk/home/_images/formatting/img_bikerangemtype1.jpg

To be completely honest the I3 does look like a Brompton when unfolded, but functionally speaking it's nothing like a Brompton. You see, the Brompton's rear dropout rotates 180 degrees for optimal folding efficiency, while the I3's rear dropout rotates 90 degrees for optimal folding inefficiency. When I saw it it didn't actually occur to me that the I3 had anything in common with the Brompton, but now that you mention it, it's quite amazing how all the same ingedients can give such a different result. It's almost as if the designer of the I3 started with a Brompton blueprint and purposely tried to eliminate everything good about the Brompton while making as few changes as possible.

FYI, I believe Breezer is now doing a 3-speed Brompton clone:

http://www.breezerbikes.com/bike_details.cfm?bikeType=compact&frame=compact&bike=i3

Saw one in a store the other day, I believe they are around $400.

That was made by Oyama (used to be known as the Space Genie). It doesn't fold or ride the same as a Brompton, as mentioned above. The one I saw would only fit little people.

FWIW, I third this motion. Brompton clone is much more interesting than a big folder. That was the one that caught my attention in the original post.


Perhaps your trial run could involve just selling the Bromptclone frames?

YAN you can't let one (Troll, heckler, employee of the competition, or whatever you want to call that poster) throw you, we have many people interested in this bike.

If a bike folds like a Brompton and the quality and or price is like the Downtube why wouldn't it be successful?

If you put an eight speed hub on it! DAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNGGGG that little cycle is going to be one HOT DADDY #.

The I3:
http://www.breezerbikes.com/im/bikes/i3-folded.jpg

The Brompton:
http://www.bromptonbicycle.co.uk/home/_images/formatting/img_bikerangemtype1.jpg



To all Brompton clone makers out there!

Note the difference:

The one folder is like most folders. You have what appears (and actually is when you attempt to move it) a pile of junk, that is going to get grease on you. Probably staining your good work pants forever!

The second folder is a tight little package that the top tube just seems to say, "carry me" I'll stay together."!

Well, if you're going to copy a Brompton spec for spec, then you can't get rid of the chain tensioner because you need it to fold the bike. If you use a standard sized front hub, then your fold will be wide, and your handlebars may be more at a slant. If you widen the rear triangle to accommodate an 8-speed hub, you'll make the fold awkward again because of the wider chainstay. If you try to get SA to build an 8-speed hub which will fit the Brompton's 110mm axle, then you'll probably have to pay extra for the tooling costs unless you buy tons of hubs to make it worth their while. You'll probably end up paying a Brompton price anyway, so why not get the real thing? As far as braking goes, brake performance is dramatically improved with decent brake levers and *reputable* pads.

And by the way, now you'll have to compete with the Curve for sales, when you already have a Mini. Taking on a Brompton clone is suicide. I'm not sure ya'll know what you're asking for.

I feel like you guys are misinterpreting what Yan said. He said he was might import a Brompton clone next year just like Neobike imported the Merc to the UK.

When people started voicing their hopes and wildest Brompton dreams, then Yan agreed that someone (ie someone with the resoures and clout to do things like get SA to build a 110mm SA 8spd, such as Brompton themselves) should improve the Brompton design, as it's long overdue. He then shared his own hopes and wildest Brompton dreams that it would be nice if one day he were in a position were he could implement such improvements.

My impression was that he has absolutely no practical intention of redesigning, improving, or respecing a Brompton-like bike, but merely importing an exact carbon copy (a "clone") of the Brompton, just like the Merc.

If the Curve and the Mini were really Brompton alternatives then people wouldn't be spending 4-5 times as much for a Brompton or 2 times as much for a Merc. That being said, I think importing Brompton clones is a great idea (as opposed to redesigning the Brompton, which I agree would be suicide for anyone except Brompton). After all, the Merc's biggest weakness seems to be poor distribution due to legal issues, but Yan seems to think that legal issues won't be a problem. Furthermore, considering all the taxes in the UK along with the fact Merc is willing to send bikes to the US with free shipping, selling an imported Brompton clone at about the price of a Mini seems entirely feasible for Downtube and should be a smashing success.

If the Curve and the Mini were really Brompton alternatives then people wouldn't be spending 4-5 times as much for a Brompton or 2 times as much for a Merc. So a Brompton clone at the price of a Curve or Mini should be a smashing success.

I agree with everything, specially this last sentence.

I am fully aware of Yan's position; I was just responding to all the other responses.

But I don't think he could sell a clone for around the price of a Mini, as it would cannibalize sales of the Mini, and I recall he said he had to sell around 5000 bikes this year to even entertain thoughts of a clone. In the future, I'm sure the clone would replace the Mini so that might be a non-issue. However, in the future, I doubt a clone would be close to the Mini in price: if he is not going to re-design it, then that means he's going to have to work with a middleman, which means costs passed down to the consumer. In all reality, I'd expect one to pay entry level Brompton, BF, or Swift prices. Plus it doesn't help when you say the Curve and Mini are not Brompton replacements (which I agree they aren't): that just means he can use Brompton marketing and reasoning to charge you more.

But I know the true intent of this thread: Yan has a clone manufacturer(s) reading it to prove to them that there is interest. Maybe you'll get your $50 8-speed Brompton clone with disk brakes, electric hub, and emergency jet engine after all. Don't forget to ask them to include a tool kit and basket as well.

That is interesting. I understand--or I should write, I think I understand--the difference between copyrights and patents. At the time, we had a discussion about this and wondered why Merc seems to have avoided these legal issues (to our knowledge). If I recall correctly, the end question was "how different do the bikes have to be before copyright no longer applies?" But I guess Flamingo and/or Yan have this covered.

Of course, US law and European law are different animals. But one would think that they are based on similar ideas.

A copyright is the expression of an idea fixed in a tangible medium (ink on paper, bits on hard drive).

A patent is a machine, method, composition of matter, or article of manufacture, or an improvement thereof, that in unobvious, useful, and novel (in the US) or has inventive step, industrial applicability, and novelty (nations other than the US). The two standards usually arrive at the same result as to patentability.

How different does the expression of an idea have to be to avoid copyright infringement of an earlier work? If the author of the work did not have access to the earlier work, the later work can be identical! Copyright does not bar independent creation. Two authors can have copyrights in identical works of authorship (happens in software where there is no access, e.g., Intel vs. AMD). However, if there is access, then each and every element of the first work is compared with the corresponding element of the second work. The bar on copyright protection of "utilitarian" or "functional" elements is stronger under US law, but this doctrine is also found in copyright law of EU members. US law recognizes a broader "single way of expression" exclusion than European law.

An, as usual, long prelude to the point: Yan will have far fewer problems in the US so long as only the functional elements of Brompton's design are copied. Brompton's key improvement is using two folding points, a pivot of the rear triangle and a hinge on the forward portion of the maintube. See the new thread on the DT-B project.

The new thead DT-B (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=287108) is a positive way forward. I personally dont like rip-off's and although Yan says he's just being altuistic methinks 'yeh - right' !

How would he feel about someone stealing his business, lecture notes, maths papers ??

Zootr pay Peter Reich a royalty for use of the swift design - so thats OK.
No one seems to have addressed the point that if DT ripped off the Swift - how would we feel about it. ... warning.. controverial comment comming up ;) .... maybe that's because Swift is US, and Brompton is 'foreign' (made by 'some limey I dont know').

However, by innovating and creating something new, not just copying, something which the market clearly wants, DT would really be adding something positive to the world at large and I'm all for it ! This now becomes a Win-Win situation.

I was unaware of the narrow axel of the brompton. I will see you guys over at the DT-B thread.

The new thead DT-B (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=287108) is a positive way forward. I personally dont like rip-off's and although Yan says he's just being altuistic methinks 'yeh - right' !

How would he feel about someone stealing his business, lecture notes, maths papers ??

Zootr pay Peter Reich a royalty for use of the swift design - so thats OK.
No one seems to have addressed the point that if DT ripped off the Swift - how would we feel about it. ... warning.. controverial comment comming up ;) .... maybe that's because Swift is US, and Brompton is 'foreign' (made by 'some limey I dont know').

However, by innovating and creating something new, not just copying, something which the market clearly wants, DT would really be adding something positive to the world at large and I'm all for it ! This now becomes a Win-Win situation.
It's not stealing or ripping off. Once an idea is released to the public it, by its very nature, belongs to the public. Patent and Copyright law subverts this natural order for a limited time in order to entice creative entities to release their works to the public. The public, who by nature owns all ideas released to the public, allows creative entities the privilege of exclusive access long enough so that the creative entities don't say "I wish I never told anyone about my idea", but no longer. The ultimate goal is to enrich the pool of freely and publicly accessible ideas. In other words, the entire purpose of patent and copyright law is to ultimately enable people to "steal and ripoff" (as you call it). Brompton's patents have expired and I seriously doubt that if Andrew Ritchie never makes another penny he will wish that he never told anyone about his ideas. If people aren't going to copy the Brompton at this point then the intellectual property laws have failed.

The market is dictating that there is no reason to innovate on the Brompton design because the Brompton design is unique as is. Only when the Brompton design is no longer unique (ie when the market is flooded with clones) will the market allow innovation to succeed. Unless someone gets lucky (and getting lucky involves a lot of risk which would be foolish for a business) emulation must come first and innovation will follow.

I'm sorry, but it just irks me when people equate the spread of information and ideas with theft:
"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density at any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property."

That's what Thomas Jefferson had to say about it, likely in the interest of "ripping off some limey", but nevertheless I still wholeheartedly believe it.

The new thead DT-B (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=287108) is a positive way forward. I personally dont like rip-off's and although Yan says he's just being altuistic methinks 'yeh - right' !

How would he feel about someone stealing his business, lecture notes, maths papers ??
He would probably feel that it's a case of copyright infringement (not patent infringement), and might pursue a case against the other person. If the other person were himself using these materials for educational instruction however, they would likely win the case because educational exclusions to copyright law exist.

Zootr pay Peter Reich a royalty for use of the swift design - so thats OK.
No one seems to have addressed the point that if DT ripped off the Swift - how would we feel about it. ... warning.. controverial comment comming up ;) .... maybe that's because Swift is US, and Brompton is 'foreign' (made by 'some limey I dont know').
Maybe it's because Design Mobility still had current or pending patents on the design of the bicycle, and ripping off the Swift would be an actual patent violation.... rather than just a "mean thing to do". Maybe it's because the partnership was mutually beneficial; bikes aren't the only things that Peter designs, and Xootr's mass-manufacturing capabilities allows him to put more people on bikes (good), and specifically on his bikes (even better). Maybe it's because, even if any original Swift Folder patents have expired, Xootr would encounter bad press because of any blatant copies.

However, by innovating and creating something new, not just copying, something which the market clearly wants, DT would really be adding something positive to the world at large and I'm all for it ! This now becomes a Win-Win situation.
This forum may be a small pond, but I'd submit that *this* market clearly wants a bike that is quite a bit like the Brompton except with better brakes, a lower price, and possibly an internal hub-shifting mechanism. ;)

I will say that, legal issues aside, DT would face possible bad publicity for a design that too-closely copied the Brompton. I think this would be mostly limited to the UK, the AtoB crowd, who do seem to treat Brompton's honor as a small point of personal and national pride. I think Yan's already described how un-profitable it was for him to do business in the UK to begin with, so this may be a very minor consideration.

YAN you can't let one (Troll, heckler, employee of the competition, or whatever you want to call that poster) throw you, we have many people interested in this bike.

If a bike folds like a Brompton and the quality and or price is like the Downtube why wouldn't it be successful?

If you put an eight speed hub on it! DAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNGGGG that little cycle is going to be one HOT DADDY #.

Hey Baldie, I was advocating for the bike, not dissing it. Just trying to move things forward by asking for an early trial run of the frameset.:) The whole bike would be fine, too.

Wubrew, I didn't ever see the end of your post: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=233363&page=2&highlight=flamingo. I had a similar experience to what you describe in that thread with David at bfold (my neighbor). He had one 2000 used Birdy and a ton of Bromptons. There was no contest. Nothing he had came close to the ride of the Birdy and still folded small. But an 8 speed micro Brompton like folder would be great. Gearing was half the problem with the ride (the other 25% weight and 25% weird components, like that lame Brommie shifter). What was the issue with the Flamingo not being ready for prime time in that thread?

Looks like comments about 'rip off's being bad (and innovations being good)' rattled a few cages :D ..... The long justifications for copying, just reinforced the point !

That said, back to the action >>> our dream DT-B (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=287108)

Looks like comments about 'rip off's being bad (and innovations being good)' rattled a few cages :D ..... The long justifications for copying, just reinforced the point !

On the contrary, I think the fact that your only criticism of our well constructed arguments is that they are long reinforces our points.

Looks like comments about 'rip off's being bad (and innovations being good)' rattled a few cages :D ..... The long justifications for copying, just reinforced the point !

That is not much of an argument.

We discussed this a long time ago with respect to Merc and Brompton.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=203444&page=2&highlight=copyright

Long story short, there is a balance between giving someone the incentive to innovate and letting society fully exploit the innovation without monopoly prices. Brompton had their opportunity and the patent expired.

I'm thinking of heading over to the annual Eurobike show in Germany(http://www.eurobike-exhibition.de/html/en/home/index.php). How does it compare to the Taipei Show?

I'm thinking of heading over to the annual Eurobike show in Germany(http://www.eurobike-exhibition.de/html/en/home/index.php). How does it compare to the Taipei Show?
I have never been to Eurobike, however it is a dealer show. Hence I assume it is like Interbike. Others may disagree, however I don't see much difference in the shows. Same products, same companies...many more opportunities ( and risk ) at the Taipei show.

Thanks,
Yan

I want to thank everyone for their comments on a Downtube Brompton clone. Sorry for not commenting sooner, I have been very busy finishing up teaching at ECU and opening our new shop at Ocracoke, NC. Ultimately Breezer has a clone ( I know this is an arguable point ) priced at $400. Additionally our mini competes very well against a Brompton....much lighter, coil spring rear suspension, better brakes, 8sp internal hub, and a smaller folded footprint. Additionally adding a new product will take alot of capital. Ultimately, we can not create a Brompton clone anytime soon.

Again I wanted to thank everyone for the valuable input!
Yan

I want to thank everyone for their comments on a Downtube Brompton clone. Sorry for not commenting sooner, I have been very busy finishing up teaching at ECU and opening our new shop at Ocracoke, NC. Ultimately Breezer has a clone ( I know this is an arguable point ) priced at $400. Additionally our mini competes very well against a Brompton....much lighter, coil spring rear suspension, better brakes, 8sp internal hub, and a smaller folded footprint. Additionally adding a new product will take alot of capital. Ultimately, we can not create a Brompton clone anytime soon.

Again I wanted to thank everyone for the valuable input!
Yan

Humm Yan, can't say I'm not dissapointed. Still to be positive, appreciate hearing what you have planned or don't have planned. No one likes to be stringed along. I can respect that.

One of my primary excuses for getting a folder was when the bus pulls up and the bike rack is full. I don't have a problem. Well problem is that I have what looks like a sofisticated pipe bomb entering the bus. The bag was great but it takes more time to get it in the bag than it does to fold. I'd rather store the bike on the front of the bus in the racks and 90% of the time I can. So I don't bother to carrry the bag then at the stop fold and then bag. Infact the bag takes up about 1/3- 1/2 of my backpack space. Weither or not the driver alows us on board is with any item especially a bike is at his sole discression and liablity. The drivers have all heard of some story where a bike that was on board got loose when the driver hit his brakes and split someones head in two. Huge lawsuit + fired driver. I have only asked to fold once and he let me on. Had he not let me on I have a 20 minute wait to catch the bus with the driver that tells the story about the bike cutting someone head in two. That or a 10 mile bike ride down a road with no shoulder and an office job with no shower.

(redwood road slc utah)

Okay so cry me a river, right. Humm I supose I will try and make a slip cover something that hides it as a bike. Make it light and thin enough that I can place in in a very small place. Put a hole in top to grab the top tube or seat or whatever and then maybe an elastic or draw string around the mostly open bottom.

Has anyone out there made a slip cover? My first thought is to get a barbaque cover but perhaps that is too thick and I might not get the right size. Suggestions for material., Think my bike helmet will give it away?

Humm Yan, can't say I'm not dissapointed. Still to be positive, appreciate hearing what you have planned or don't have planned. No one likes to be stringed along. I can respect that.



I did not intend to string anyone along. FYI I had no idea there was a $400 Breezer clone in the market....that changes everything for us.

Any thoughts on using a tarp as a slip cover. It would be very cheap and can be cut to fit any size....certainly it will rip eventually however one tarp can make many covers.

Thanks,
Yan

FYI I had no idea there was a $400 Breezer clone in the market....that changes everything for us.
Don't tell us your Brompton "clone" was going to weigh 30 pounds and fold larger than the 20" Downtubes like that Breezer bike. If that's the case then how is it a clone?

Despite Brompton's copyright claims, people don't buy their bikes because they love the rear hinge and the handlebar look. It's the weight and size of the fold that people want and the Breezer bike doesn't come anywhere near to cloning that.

Don't tell us your Brompton "clone" was going to weigh 30 pounds and fold larger than the 20" Downtubes like that Breezer bike. If that's the case then how is it a clone?


The Breezer is not a perfect clone. However it is a clone that is sold via retail channels at a low price point. We only sell via the web, I believe many customers would opt for the retail channel over a similar looking "mail order" bike.

Thanks,
Yan

I believe many customers would opt for the retail channel over a similar looking "mail order" bike.

Thanks,
Yan

I still believe there is a target audience for a light, COMPACT, easy to fold and easy to transport bike that is similar to a good Brompton without costing over a thousand dollars.

Any bike that is a real bike replacement (like Bromptons that people ride brevets on them), that is compact enough to fit into a travel bag without any screwdriver needs and that is convenient to carry once folded will sell, and will sell well.

The Tikit was being sold at the Sun and Fun Fly in show in Lakeland FL, even though it costed over 900US$

Bromptonsare being sold regularly

No reason not to have a cheaper COMPETITION (not another el cheapo version like the Breezer or whatever).

Just my US$0.02

R

I did not intend to string anyone along. FYI I had no idea there was a $400 Breezer clone in the market....that changes everything for us.

Any thoughts on using a tarp as a slip cover. It would be very cheap and can be cut to fit any size....certainly it will rip eventually however one tarp can make many covers.

Thanks,
Yan

No I was thanking you for letting us know, I wasn't implying that you were stringing us along. Just stating thanks for letting us know thus not stringing folks along.....

Sorry about the lack of clarity in my previous message.

Any bike that is a real bike replacement (like Bromptons that people ride brevets on them), that is compact enough to fit into a travel bag without any screwdriver needs and that is convenient to carry once folded will sell, and will sell well.

Bromptonsare being sold regularly

No reason not to have a cheaper COMPETITION (not another el cheapo version like the Breezer or whatever).

Just my US$0.02

R

I was thinking the fight was over. He has an extremely strong point Yan. Breezer wasn't a consideration for me. I am trying to get a smaller more compact fold that stays in a tight package than my current Downtube, not just make it appear Brompton like when I am riding it.

You insult your own company saying that Breezer is a competitor to your fine products.

Its been said that you would import someone elses design. It would be a hope that you'd design your own or use the same design source as you have with your current line.

That Breezer eats donkey turds, and there is no reason to think it would compete with anyone but Wal-mart.

that is convenient to carry once folded will sell, and will sell well.R

YES YES YES!!!


Everyone sing! BORN in America, but I was maaaade in Ch-I-I-NA!

You insult your own company saying that Breezer is a competitor to your fine products.


Thanks for your compliment. I agree our bikes are great, however our marketing needs some work. Hence companies like Breezer with established distribution are hard to compete with.....regardless of the quality or value of their product.

I am trying to fix our weakness. Our first commercial will start running in the Philadelphia market soon. I'm adding a new PR person, and we have a few bike tests coming up.

Thanks,
Yan

I am trying to fix our weakness. Our first commercial will start running in the Philadelphia market soon. I'm adding a new PR person, and we have a few bike tests coming up.

Thanks,
Yan

Yan, would you share or venture a guess on how many DT you've sold in the Philadelphia area? I think I've seen one other in Center City in the past year.

I've been explaining how my DT "designed & sold locally" to curious inquirers on the train & station.

I don't know if this has been posted before. I just found this topic about folding bikes in the taipei cycle show in the singapore strida forum. Tons of pictures.

http://stridasingapore.com/forum/index.php?topic=118.0

Yan, would you share or venture a guess on how many DT you've sold in the Philadelphia area? I think I've seen one other in Center City in the past year.

I've been explaining how my DT "designed & sold locally" to curious inquirers on the train & station.

Funny you ask....we don't sell much to local customers. I have been doing this 5 years. We get many customers driving from NY, NJ, DE, MD, VA to pick up bikes.....but nearly no Philly customers. Very strange, I think it will change this season.

Thanks,
Yan

There are two of us from the Salt Lake City Utah area that have a downtubes, that I am aware of.

My wife was riding it last night, it is one sweet looking bike!

For what it's worth, I think that a TV spot is a risky route. The type of quality you're likely to be able to afford for the filming, and the placement..... I worry that a TV commercial for the Downtube would paint it like any of the hundreds of other throwaway gadgets "as-seen-on-TV". Worse, seeing it sandwiched squarely between a used auto mall commercial and one for Girls Gone Wild part 38.

Then again, it's often said that there's no such thing as bad publicity.... and TV is one area that I haven't seen Dahons advertised. Good luck with it in any event.

Sorry to hear that the Brompton-ish Downtube won't be coming anytime soon, but please keep it in mind for the future, in case you reach a point where you're looking to develop a new line again.

Downtube News:
#1 We will introduce a 26" folder in August 2007.
Thanks,
Yan

Hi,

Does that mean it's worth deferring a Dahon Jack purchase in anticipation of your product? Has a price point been decided..

Thanks!

@ baldone. cheap, thin slip cover = leaf and garden bag. No rule says the bag must carry the weight of the bike, just that the bike be bagged. Leaf and garden bags have worked for me in Asia and Europe without problem.

Hi,

Does that mean it's worth deferring a Dahon Jack purchase in anticipation of your product? Has a price point been decided..

Thanks!

I've heard its going to be a full suspension bike.

@ baldone. cheap, thin slip cover = leaf and garden bag. No rule says the bag must carry the weight of the bike, just that the bike be bagged. Leaf and garden bags have worked for me in Asia and Europe without problem.

That's the second time I got that suggestion, thank you.

Until I make a slip cover (if that ever happens) perhaps I will shove a thick garbage back in my pack. If not for a slip cover I could get shelter from the rain in an emergency.

when will the new bike be on the market? Can you send me the specs?

when will the new bike be on the market? Can you send me the specs?

We had issues with our 26" demos, and I had to make changes. I believe we will introduce it in April 2008....no guarantees.

Thanks,
Yan