Taipei Bike Show News!

[downtube]

Just got back from the Taipei Show (hence my inactivity on this forum in the last few days).

Folding bike news from the show:
#1 GoBike has added a Canadian and German distributor. These bikes should be available in the US and Europe soon.
#2 Pacific Cycle, manufacturer of the Birdy, has added a Canadian distributor. This should drop prices in the US and Canada.
#3 Many new folding bikes and parts. Wheeler and Oyama had some nice high end folders.
#4 Dahon did not introduce anything new, however they had many test bikes.
#5 Neobike was a no-show
#6 Several Folding Recumbent trikes were at the show.
#7 Huge advances in electic motors.
#8 Many copies of the Mobiky and a few of the Brompton.
#9 Strida's (and clones) were very popular at the show. I think Strida has a new owner with better distribution. They also recieved a 2nd place award for engineering excellence hence recieved alot of hype at the show.

Downtube News:
#1 We will introduce a 26" folder in August 2007.
#2 We will begin testing Electric bikes at the end of the summer...hopefully in 2008 we will have an electric lineup.
#3 We may import a Brompton copy in 2008.
#4 We are adding bags, sunglasses, and clothing to our product line in 2007.
#5 We are opening a new shop in Ocracoke Island next week. I will staff it on weekends in April and will staff it full time in May (after I finish teaching). If our two shops do well we will open more in 2008.

Thanks,
Yan

[Speedo]

#5 We are opening a new shop in Ocracoke Island next week. I will staff it on weekends in April and will staff it full time in May (after I finish teaching).


It's been a while since I visted Ocracoke. It strikes me as being somewhat, well, out of the way. I was there in the spring. Does it pick up much in summer?

(edit) Maybe I've got the wrong Ocracoke. Is it Ocracoke, NC, on the outer banks? (/edit)
Speedo

[Baldone]

#3 We may import a Brompton copy in 2008.

Thanks,
Yan

Yan, that is exactly what I was looking for! If it is anything like the foldability of the brompton and the interchangablity and price of the downtube. Consider one already sold.

[DVC45]

Exciting news indeed!
Any chance for a S.A. hub equiped NS? How about an adjustable suspension for DT's? Are those E-bikes going to be on a DT bike platform?
Thanks!

[downtube]

Exciting news indeed!
Any chance for a S.A. hub equiped NS? How about an adjustable suspension for DT's? Are those E-bikes going to be on a DT bike platform?
Thanks!

SA NS has been in the works for a while and will be in the US around June. ebikes will be on a Downtube platform. The ebike will have the entire motor at the BB, hence it will be a true power assist.

Thanks,
Yan

[downtube]

Yan, that is exactly what I was looking for! If it is anything like the foldability of the brompton and the interchangablity and price of the downtube. Consider one already sold.
Importing these is dependant on sales of our current models. If we continue to sell out we will probably take the risk. If sales of the current models is not as brisk it will go on the backburner with a few other ideas.

Thanks,
Yan

[downtube]

It's been a while since I visted Ocracoke. It strikes me as being somewhat, well, out of the way. I was there in the spring. Does it pick up much in summer?

(edit) Maybe I've got the wrong Ocracoke. Is it Ocracoke, NC, on the outer banks? (/edit)
Speedo
Not sure if it picks up much. I have been going there every weekend all winter long and fell in love with the island. A few weeks ago a shop on the docks was up for rent, hence I took it. I can manage everything from the island....so why not hang there for the summer.

We will also sell/rent kayaks and dive gear.

Thanks,
Yan

[Speedo]

Not sure if it picks up much. I have been going there every weekend all winter long and fell in love with the island. A few weeks ago a shop on the docks was up for rent, hence I took it. I can manage everything from the island....so why not hang there for the summer.

We will also sell/rent kayaks and dive gear.

Thanks,
Yan

It is very pretty there. Well, good luck!

Speedo

[DVC45]

SA NS has been in the works for a while and will be in the US around June. ebikes will be on a Downtube platform. The ebike will have the entire motor at the BB, hence it will be a true power assist.

Thanks,
Yan

Great! :) ' can't wait to see those.

[SesameCrunch]

Downtube News:
#1 We will introduce a 26" folder in August 2007.
#2 We will begin testing Electric bikes at the end of the summer...hopefully in 2008 we will have an electric lineup.
#3 We may import a Brompton copy in 2008.
#4 We are adding bags, sunglasses, and clothing to our product line in 2007.
#5 We are opening a new shop in Ocracoke Island next week. I will staff it on weekends in April and will staff it full time in May (after I finish teaching). If our two shops do well we will open more in 2008.


$#@$%^ Curses, curses, curses to you, Yan!!!!

Just when I get close to buying every item in your product line, you go and add more!

Now I got to break into the kid's college fund again. At this rate, he may end up in community college instead of Stanford. Sheesh! :)

PS: Brompton copy sounds real good, like Baldone said...

[14R]

Brompton copy, Downtube price. THERE IS a God.

Make it available before the end of the year and I will take it with me to Italy!

[downtube]

$#@$%^ Curses, curses, curses to you, Yan!!!!

Just when I get close to buying every item in your product line, you go and add more!

Now I got to break into the kid's college fund again. At this rate, he may end up in community college instead of Stanford. Sheesh! :)

PS: Brompton copy sounds real good, like Baldone said...

No worries our bikes will always be very cost effective....no breaking into college funds for our bikes :)

Yan

[SesameCrunch]

Brompton copy, Downtube price. THERE IS a God.

Make it available before the end of the year and I will take it with me to Italy!

My sister has a place in Rome. She admired my NS and said she could really use it for their apartment there, so I gave it to her. She wants another folder. I was thinking that the upcoming DT Brommie would be even better for that purpose!

[JosephLMonti]

SA NS has been in the works for a while and will be in the US around June.
Thanks,
Yan

Can we expect a new generation of the other DT staples in June as well?

[downtube]

Can we expect a new generation of the other DT staples in June as well?

The new generation bikes will arrive in January 2008. I can not continue changing bikes at the pace I did 2 years ago. This year I am focused on marketing and sales....not changing much.

Thanks,
Yan

[flatlander_48]

Just got back from the Taipei Show

Really envious here as this is the first Taipei that I've missed of the last four. Sounds like it was another good show!

[bookishboy]

Brompton copy? Sign me up!

Just curious what wheel size you envision for the bikes, and what rear dropout spacing you plan on. Are we talking 16" wheels? 20"? Standard hub sizes or weird Brompton hub sizes?

Also, if you need anyone in the PA area to beta test either the Brompton clones or the electric-assist, I'd be happy to. :) (schmooze schmooze) The electric assist I'd probably turn back over to you at the end of it, but I'd likely buy the Brompton clone at the end of the test period.

Lastly: Any worries about violating Brompton's "copyrighted appearance", even if the patents have expired?

[bookishboy]

Added:

Yan, if you're looking for ideas in the future, my next request (after the Brompton clone) would be for some sort of recumbent option. Either a partnership with Cruzbikes for kits which are tailored to your DT models, or something original, a folding recumbent from DT. I understand that this would be further down the line, if at all.... but may not be too much of a risk, if you partner with someone like Cruzbike who already offers conversion kits.

[DaFriMon]

A Downton or Bromptube could be interesting, especially if it had adjustable height bars and better brakes, like a Merc. Would have to see the details. At some point, though, most of us just have to stop buying bikes and stick with what we've got for a few years. Amazing how many makes and models there are now, that are worth considering. And yet, since I got my first folder in 1995, I think I've only encountered one other folder rider outside of New York City.

[James H Haury]

When did Pacific Cycle Buy out Reise and Mueller?

[downtube]

Relly envious here as this is the first Taipei that I've missed of the last four. Sounds like it was another good show!

It was not much different than the last four shows....you didn't miss much.

Thanks,
Yan

[makeinu]

When did Pacific Cycle Buy out Reise and Mueller?

I don't think they bought them out, I think they just manufacture the Birdy for them.

[flatlander_48]

It was not much different than the last four shows....you didn't miss much.

Thanks,
Yan

Yeah, but it's a good excuse to hang out with bike people and that's always a good thing. Besides, I've learned a lot from talking to folks from Ritchey, FSA, Selle Italia, Continental, etc.

[downtube]

Brompton copy? Sign me up!

Just curious what wheel size you envision for the bikes, and what rear dropout spacing you plan on. Are we talking 16" wheels? 20"? Standard hub sizes or weird Brompton hub sizes?

Also, if you need anyone in the PA area to beta test either the Brompton clones or the electric-assist, I'd be happy to. :) (schmooze schmooze) The electric assist I'd probably turn back over to you at the end of it, but I'd likely buy the Brompton clone at the end of the test period.

Lastly: Any worries about violating Brompton's "copyrighted appearance", even if the patents have expired?


I worry about everything, however I do not believe Brompton has any copyrighted apprearance. Thus far only Neobike had problems importing a Brompton clone in Europe. I thought it was a patent issue, however I was told it was a contract issue. FYI Neobike manufactured Bromptons a long time ago, however they lost the account due to poor quality control.

Thanks,
Yan

[maunakea]

Neither copyrights nor trademarks can protect functionality... that is the exclusive turf of patent protection. Copyright is the expression of an idea, not the idea or functional structure... the graphic design printed on a fabric, not the fabric yarn. Trademarks are words, symbols, designs, sounds, etc., use to identify the origin of goods. The shape of the Coke bottle, but not bottles themselves (inherent functionality, like bottles holding fluids, is permitted in trademarks, but not protected by trademark).

Great news for DT, Yan. I, too, would buy a DT improvement of a Brompton. What a fold!

Neo-Bike not showing means something must be very wrong in Neoland. Nothing new on their website for a long time.

[tcs]

The original Brompton patent (USA #4,182,522, 1980) has expired.

Yesterday I saw a video of a new Dahon folding pedal design shown at Taipei. Today I learn from a competitor that "Dahon did not introduce anything new".

"If you see it on the internet, it must be true",
TCS

[makeinu]

The original Brompton patent (USA #4,182,522, 1980) has expired.

Yesterday I saw a video of a new Dahon folding pedal design shown at Taipei. Today I learn from a competitor that "Dahon did not introduce anything new".

"If you see it on the internet, it must be true",
TCS
Yeah, I'd like to put some of those dahon folding pedals on my downtube. Very low profile:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5FHGUHNi2Q

[invisiblehand]

The original Brompton patent (USA #4,182,522, 1980) has expired.

Yesterday I saw a video of a new Dahon folding pedal design shown at Taipei. Today I learn from a competitor that "Dahon did not introduce anything new".

"If you see it on the internet, it must be true",
TCS

There was a thread on this not long ago. Neobike licensed its Brompton copy and it agreed to avoid the European market. Hence why there was no legal fight. However, another company tried to import the bikes into Europe under the name Scoop.

Below is a short blip on it. You can find the old thread that discusses many of the issues in BikeForums.

http://www.bikebiz.com/news/19834/Brompton-swoops-on-Scoop

16:50, Sep 24th 2004
Earlier this year, a consignment of 250+ folding bicycles was imported into Holland by Neobike Europe, a Dutch firm who distribute Taiwanese folding bikes in Europe. The bikes were branded Scoop, and, said Brompton, were based "almost exactly on the Brompton design." Brompton launched a lawsuit: and has just won it.

Brompton charged Neobike Europe with breach of copyright and/or authorship rights. Brompton's case was successful, with a judgement ruling that the Scoop bikes did indeed infringe Brompton's copyright: this ruling was made in Groningen on February 26th but details were not released until today.

Brompton also obtained an interim attachment order relating to the goods, and the bikes are now impounded, pending a final decision on their disposal.

Although Brompton's original patent covering the principle of folding has elapsed, the design and styling of the Brompton nonetheless have copyright protection, and this has been confirmed by the Groningen judgement.

"Many other excellent and original new designs of folder have also appeared in recent years, and we welcome such competition: it genuinely serves to generate interest in the concept," said Brompton's founder Andrew Ritchie.

"But we are not happy to see products with styling contrived to be similar to that of the Brompton: this confuses the consumer, and can do damage to the marque, especially if performance and/or quality is not as good. Brompton has pioneered many refinements that make a portable bike a pleasure to own and use, and our designs involve great attention to detail and an unrivalled understanding of how such bikes are used. This is what has secured our success, and naturally we do not wish to see this undermined by copiers with little feel for how a quality portable bike should perform."

Translation from Dutch of the key point (section 4.1) of the Groningen judgement:

Firstly in this case one must clarify whether the Brompton does in fact - as Brompton c.s. have maintained - possess an original character and bear an original mark of the maker, thus allowing the Brompton to enjoy copyright protection.
?One must conclude that this is indeed the case here. While it is undoubtedly true, as Van Ellen c.s. [Neobike Europe] have asserted, that the Brompton features various elements which, taken individually, can also be found in other foldable bicycle models, the specific combination of the folding technique, the design of the bicycle in the form of an "H" and the form of the handlebars in the form of a "U", all in combination with the bent horizontal frame tube, nevertheless mean that the Brompton, taken in its totality, can clearly be regarded as an original work with a personal mark of the maker.

[invisiblehand]

Just got back from the Taipei Show (hence my inactivity on this forum in the last few days).

Folding bike news from the show:
#1 GoBike has added a Canadian and German distributor. These bikes should be available in the US and Europe soon.
#2 Pacific Cycle, manufacturer of the Birdy, has added a Canadian distributor. This should drop prices in the US and Canada.
#3 Many new folding bikes and parts. Wheeler and Oyama had some nice high end folders.
#4 Dahon did not introduce anything new, however they had many test bikes.
#5 Neobike was a no-show
#6 Several Folding Recumbent trikes were at the show.
#7 Huge advances in electic motors.
#8 Many copies of the Mobiky and a few of the Brompton.
#9 Strida's (and clones) were very popular at the show. I think Strida has a new owner with better distribution. They also recieved a 2nd place award for engineering excellence hence recieved alot of hype at the show.

Downtube News:
#1 We will introduce a 26" folder in August 2007.
#2 We will begin testing Electric bikes at the end of the summer...hopefully in 2008 we will have an electric lineup.
#3 We may import a Brompton copy in 2008.
#4 We are adding bags, sunglasses, and clothing to our product line in 2007.
#5 We are opening a new shop in Ocracoke Island next week. I will staff it on weekends in April and will staff it full time in May (after I finish teaching). If our two shops do well we will open more in 2008.

Thanks,
Yan

Hi Yan,

Are there any chances you will offer "kits" or other modifications to the mini for bigger folk?

-G

[LittlePixel]

Those dahon pedals look priddy sweet...

Wish list for Brompdown...

1) Lighter.

That is all. And a nicer sculpted knob on the hinge bolt. And black-anodised machined aero rims to set off some stelvios. And --please-- a better looking stem!

[invisiblehand]

Those dahon pedals look priddy sweet...

Wish list for Brompdown...

1) Lighter.

That is all. And a nicer sculpted knob on the hinge bolt. And black-anodised machined aero rims to set off some stelvios. And --please-- a better looking stem!

If it turns out that you can import BrompDowns, include a height adjustable stem and an 8 speed SA hub in the back ... if you really have flexibility, I would switch to ERTO 305 tires so we can install Big Apples and switch the bike to v-brakes instead of the glop they call brakes.

[downtube]

Hi Yan,

Are there any chances you will offer "kits" or other modifications to the mini for bigger folk?

-G
we will sell adjustable height stem kits in about 2 weeks

Thanks,
Yan

[downtube]

The original Brompton patent (USA #4,182,522, 1980) has expired.

Yesterday I saw a video of a new Dahon folding pedal design shown at Taipei. Today I learn from a competitor that "Dahon did not introduce anything new".

"If you see it on the internet, it must be true",
TCS
This is the first I heard of the new pedal....it looks very nice.

Thanks,
Yan

[maunakea]

NeoBromp's mistake in Europe is that they tried to import exactly the same design as licensed from Brompton. WTH did they think would happen?? The judge probably didn't want to to allow NeoBromp to dodge its contractual obligation by using a strawman corp.... but Brompton should have prohibited such an easy dodge by contract (e.g., "no affiliates of Neo-Bike will import the licensed copies into Europe").

When the design can be changed, and a design element is non-functional, a "copyright design-around" is used to avoid the briar patch NeoBromp naively entered. As for functional parts, US copyright law has a feature called "single method exception", coming from the software world. If there is arguably only a single cost-effective way to provide a certain function, that way does not infringe the copyright of another. This comes from the public policy of not allowing copyright law to extend to functional protection.

[Simple Simon]

Hi Yan, Thanks very much for the report from taipei show and downtube news - thats what makes this forum so good - sharing of info ! Couple of q's and comments ...

I'm interested in getting a full sized folder to be able to go more off road, (but not necessarily full-on down hill). Would your bike be a basic 'fold in half' job like most others (ok for taking in cars, but too big for commute, trains etc.) or something smaller, and lighter (swivel-head, montague, .... ???).

I own a Brompton and basically love it, but have a wishlist of improvements (shared with many others here). My question to you is.. Rather than import/copy why dont you innovate something new ? It could be based around the geometry/hinge positions of a Brompton, but with added innovations (which you could patent). eg a new monocoque frame, lighter materials, more contemporary look, faster hinges, better brakes, strida like wheelability, component options / cost savings, etc.

I know most people (myself included) want the best for least money, but I also feel that copying (whether patent, copyright, idea or whatever), is ultimately no good for everyone. When its a big faceless corporation we excuse it, but when its a small company or individual, I'm not so sure (eg Andrew Ritchey (Brompton) / Peter Riech (Swift) ...... and, even Yan (Downtube) ;) ). What are your views on this ?

Thanks Si

[maunakea]

Where there's a single way to achieve a function cost-effectively, like the fold, use it. If it is non-functional and arguably design (exact shape of the handlebars), design-around. One of the reasons Dahon uses the curved maintube in some models is that the curve gets copyright protection. Maybe have a titanium and/or CF version (yum) at the high end, and aluminum everything at the low end. Go Yan!

[bookishboy]

I know most people (myself included) want the best for least money, but I also feel that copying (whether patent, copyright, idea or whatever), is ultimately no good for everyone. When its a big faceless corporation we excuse it, but when its a small company or individual, I'm not so sure (eg Andrew Ritchey (Brompton) / Peter Riech (Swift) ...... and, even Yan (Downtube) ;) ). What are your views on this ?

Thanks Si
I disagree. The point of patent and copyright is not only to allow innovators to profit from their creations, but also to put a sunset on the exclusive rights that they're given, in order to require that they continue to innovate in order to survive. The effect is that, after the sunset of a copyright/patent, other people will begin to use the same innovation without licensing it, perhaps more cheaply than the original creator... perhaps better quality. This is ultimately better for the largest amount of people: the potential customers of these products.

As long as the patents are expired, I think that another company should be able to produce an exact copy of the product down to every angle, weld, nut and bolt.... save only that they not reproduce graphics/fonts in order not to present themselves *as* the other company.

[downtube]

Hi Yan, Thanks very much for the report from taipei show and downtube news - thats what makes this forum so good - sharing of info ! Couple of q's and comments ...

I'm interested in getting a full sized folder to be able to go more off road, (but not necessarily full-on down hill). Would your bike be a basic 'fold in half' job like most others (ok for taking in cars, but too big for commute, trains etc.) or something smaller, and lighter (swivel-head, montague, .... ???).

I own a Brompton and basically love it, but have a wishlist of improvements (shared with many others here). My question to you is.. Rather than import/copy why dont you innovate something new ? It could be based around the geometry/hinge positions of a Brompton, but with added innovations (which you could patent). eg a new monocoque frame, lighter materials, more contemporary look, faster hinges, better brakes, strida like wheelability, component options / cost savings, etc.

I know most people (myself included) want the best for least money, but I also feel that copying (whether patent, copyright, idea or whatever), is ultimately no good for everyone. When its a big faceless corporation we excuse it, but when its a small company or individual, I'm not so sure (eg Andrew Ritchey (Brompton) / Peter Riech (Swift) ...... and, even Yan (Downtube) ;) ). What are your views on this ?

Thanks Si

The BIG 26" bike will have full suspension and fold in half.

I will comment on the IP (intellectual property) question when I have more time....in the next few days.

Thanks,
Yan

[makeinu]

I know most people (myself included) want the best for least money, but I also feel that copying (whether patent, copyright, idea or whatever), is ultimately no good for everyone. When its a big faceless corporation we excuse it, but when its a small company or individual, I'm not so sure (eg Andrew Ritchey (Brompton) / Peter Riech (Swift) ...... and, even Yan (Downtube) ;) ). What are your views on this ?
I think copying is good because it encourages more innovation. For example, if Brompton starts losing sales to imitations then they will have no choice but to start innovating again. Same for the imitators like Neobike. The more imitators there are, the more incentive there is for someone to distinguish their product from the rest by innovating and the more entities there are with such incentives, the more innovations we'll get.

[downtube]

I believe innovation should benefit society not individuals. IP (intellectual property) laws allow individuals to benefit financially, not society. Hence I am not a fan of IP laws.

I am glad Brompton developed such a nice fold design, however I am also sad that they have done so little with it over the years. The frame is still made from steel, the brakes are poor, it lacks wide gearing, and the suspension should be improved. I hope somebody adds value to the Brompton design...since Brompton seems happy with the status quo. If things go well for us I may do it, however I would prefer someone else to do it. I am spreading myself dangerously thin.

Thanks,
Yan

[Baldone]

As many have echoed, looking forward to the Brompton clone! More so than anything else.

Love a more stretched out ride.
Very compact fold.
Fold that locks. Doesn't the Brompt, lock the fold with the seatpost?

Would you consider a slip cover over the bag?

I like the bag but a slip cover would be fast and sweeet!

Imagine a 9 or 8 speed hub, the possiblites are endless!

[14R]

9 speed hub on a Brompton size bike with V brakes and Downtube Price. I'm in for 1/2dozen

[DaFriMon]

. . .I am glad Brompton developed such a nice fold design, however I am also sad that they have done so little with it over the years. The frame is still made from steel . . .


FWIW, even though I did eventually go with the aluminum framed Dahon Curve, a steel frame would not be a negative for me. In fact, this was one of the factors that made me consider a Brompton, despite the much higher cost.

I take it that a Bromptube, if it is made, would be aluminum, like the other Downtube bikes?

[wubrew]

After all is said and done two folders that still inspire all are Brommie and Birdy.
Any news on Ming's Swivel head?

[wubrew]

#7 Huge advances in electic motors.

Can you elaborate more on this please?

[downtube]

Can you elaborate more on this please?

#1 Many manufacturers had Lithium Ion batteries for the first time.
#2 Two manufacturers stood out, both had BB based motors that acted as pedal assist. Once could retrofit on any bike. The other needed special frame mounts to accept the motor.

The hub based motors were all over the show, however they should start leaving the market soon as these 2 companies grow. Unfortunately I do not know their names...one was from Japan and worked in the motorcycle business. The other was based in Taiwan.

Thanks,
yan

[downtube]

9 speed hub on a Brompton size bike with V brakes and Downtube Price. I'm in for 1/2dozen

FYI we need to sell at least 5000 Downtubes this year before I consider expanding into this new segment. I am very happy with our current product line and our current sales. I will only do a clone if:

#1 I have the time
#2 I have the money
#3 Noone else has done it
#4 I feel a need to continue expanding.

If any of these 4 does not occur I will NOT import them.....so don't hold your breath, it will not happen anytime soon.

Thanks,
Yan

[SesameCrunch]

FYI we need to sell at least 5000 Downtubes this year before I consider expanding into this new segment.

The solution is quite simple -

I need one bike for me and I need one bike to my significant other. Every week I have a new significant other, so I need a new bike about every other week (lol).

We just need to get 14R more girlfriends!
:D :D :D

[Dahon.Steve]

If you're going to make a Brompton knockoff, use the the 8 speed hub period. Do not use the derailuer system the Brompton uses today. If possible, make a lighter version with Aluminum, flat bars with adjustable handlebars.

[14R]

The solution is quite simple -We just need to get 14R more girlfriends!
:D :D :D

Hmm, bad timing. I'm stuck for a while now.