Classic & Vintage - Sturmey Archer 4 Speeds - who's used them?

I was poking around various Sturmey Archer sites the other day - I've recently aquired a Raleigh 20, and a tandem, both with AW hubs, plus my housemate has a 57 BSA with an SW, and then I'm building my Gentlemans Express (see other thread), and thought it was time to find out more.

Now, when I bought my HR Bates (see below), and it had a 4 speed Sturmey hub, I thought "who the hell put that on there? Completely innappropriate for a race machine". However, I later discovered that my Bates BAR was built in 1940, when derailleurs where crapulous, and SA hub bikes were breaking a lot of records. My plan had been to build the BAR up fixed gear, but now I'm thinking, if when I check the date on that hub (it's right at the back of the garage) it's old enough to be original fitment, perhaps I could go with that instead? After all, it'll still have the clean look, and I have plenty of single speed and fixed gear bikes. My question is, how good are the 4 speeds? Are they fragile? I've ridden plenty of AW's, and like them a lot. Am I going to like this as well?

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a322/Samuelw72/DSC00183.jpg

Sammy,
I am by no means an expert, but I think the FW series of hubs were as dependable as the AW. I have an FG hub that I am building into my Dawes Galaxy, similar to yours....

Aaron:)

Sammy,
I am by no means an expert, but I think the FW series of hubs were as dependable as the AW. I have an FG hub that I am building into my Dawes Galaxy, similar to yours....

Aaron:)

I agree, I have an FG hub on a 1957 BSA Goldenstreak very reliable and smooth.

385xza

Hmmm. It'd save me some cash. I can't remember if the rims are alu, or steel. Better check. Of course, if I came across an ASC, that'd be sweet. Theres actually a BAR with an ASC on eBay now, but for proper money.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Bates-cycle-Cantiflex-Diadrant-forks-Sturmey-Archer-ASC_W0QQitemZ140099844256QQcategoryZ69825QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://i5.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/94/2a/1e60_1.JPG

I have a couple of bikes set up with FW hubs and one with an FM hub. Both variants are superior to the AW (it helps, too, that the FM is an alloy shell) with an excellent range. I've had no problems with slipping out of gear once they were adjusted correctly.

Neal

4-speed Sturmey-Archer hubs are very nice and quite rare, at least in the U.S.

i think the four speeds (at least the FM) are considered far superior to the AWs partly because their clutch design prevents the common slippage problem.. i have also heard them praised as some of the more robust and reliable sturmey hubs..

i have one but i haven't ridden it yet as the alloy hub shell is excessively worn.. the need for a specialized tool to remove the ball ring is probably it's number one disadvantage (from my viewpoint).. also consider the difficulty of finding 4-speed specific replacement parts (weird two piece indicators ?) when compared with the ubiquitous AW bits..

it's hard to say whether you'll like them.. the FM (medium ratio) has a tighter range than the wide AW.. the FW (wide) is a bit more spread out, natch.

I have a couple of bikes set up with FW hubs and one with an FM hub. Both variants are superior to the AW (it helps, too, that the FM is an alloy shell) with an excellent range.
NealUnfortunately, for an FM an alloy shell isn't "Plan A".

The low gear pawl notches in a left hand ball cup for an FW/AW/S5 are fully supported by the ball cup. But the same notches on an FM are cut completely through.
See http://bikesmithdesign.com/SA/fm-fw-left-ball-cup.jpg

The FM notches depend on the shell for support. Not a problem with a steel shell. However, the alloy shell is only 1/3 as stiff. A strong rider can apply sufficient force to the pawls to distort the alloy shell enough to bust the notches off and penetrate the alloy shell.
See http://bikesmithdesign.com/SA/fm-alloy-oops.jpg

I'm guessing a replacement FM left ball cup might be hard to find.

My new FM is in a steel shell and I've got an FW in the alloy FM shell.

I could be wrong, but IMHO a few of the bits inside an FM don't appear to be quite as bulletproof as an FW.

i think the four speeds (at least the FM) are considered far superior to the AWs partly because their clutch design prevents the common slippage problem.. i have also heard them praised as some of the more robust and reliable sturmey hubs..The FW and two cable 5 speeds are quite tough. But so's the AW if it's kept lubed and adjusted. I've overhauled several high mileage AWs from the '50s that were good as new inside.

On the hilly, 85 mile 3 speed Tour of Lake Pepin there has only been one hub failure in four years. The only Shimano to attempt the tour :D


i have one but i haven't ridden it yet as the alloy hub shell is excessively worn.. the need for a specialized tool to remove the ball ring is probably it's number one disadvantage (from my viewpoint)..You can remove them with a Kingsbrigdge fixed cup tool. Maybe Sheldon Brown's Big Bolt method for removing fixed cups will work too. Remember, left hand threads. A little heat may help, I had to use a paint stripper gun on the alloy shell to get one off.


also consider the difficulty of finding 4-speed specific replacement parts (weird two piece indicators ?) when compared with the ubiquitous AW bits..If you don't have the indicators or a shifter you can convert an FW to an S5. Indicator, trigger and clutch key are replaced with AW items but you need an S5 primary sun pinion. Scarce, but I have a supply of them. I also have NOS bell cranks and pushrods. But for daily riders I use modified Shimano bellcranks and nails for pushrods. Friction thumb shifters are "Plan A" for the left cable.

http://bikesmithdesign.com/SA/S5andFWsuns.jpg shows the difference. The FW sun, on the axle, can only transmit torque in one direction. The square dogs of the S5 can transmit torque in either direction, allowing 5th gear.


It's hard to say whether you'll like them.. the FM (medium ratio) has a tighter range than the wide AW.. the FW (wide) is a bit more spread out, natch.The FM has the same 1st and 3rd as the FW but 2nd and 4th are closer to 3rd. Sort of like a close ratio 5 speed, with 2nd missing.

With an AW I find the big gaps annoying. But with the FW or S5 I can always find a comfortable gear.

The AW is as tough as old boots - I've never heard a bad word about them. I reckon it'll be an FW, but we'll see. I'll try to haul it out this weekend.

So, I went in the back of the garage with a torch while I was hauling another bike out for errands, and here's what I found:

The Good News

It is a 4 speed hub, and it's built on alloy rims, with fabulous butterfly nuts (see pic below)

The Bad News

It's dated '59, so if Martin Coopmans dating of the frame at 1940 is right, it's not original equipment. Also, it's an FM, though it appears to be a steel shell to me. I'd have liked the wide range. Looks from Sheldons page as though it goes further below 1:1 than an AW, but nowhere near as far above. Hmmm.

It did occur to me, however, that the beauty of using this would be the ease of changing to fixed. I can build up a fixed rear with the same tooth count, and simply swap wheels, tie-wrapping the SA shifter cable to the frame. Doesn't get any easier than that........

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a322/Samuelw72/DSC00188.jpg

You could also get a big chunk of change if you were to sell that wheel on eBay, Sammy.

Neal

You could also get a big chunk of change if you were to sell that wheel on eBay, Sammy.40h, bent wingnut, corroded rim and broken spoke will keep it from being worth a ridiculous amount. And while I'd rather have steel, it's not going to bring the money that alloy will.

An NOS, NIB, 36h, Alloy shell, FM with all the fittings and paperwork (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=018&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=280099461004&rd=1&rd=1) is now on Ebay. I'm expecting it to bring ASC money. Beautiful, but out of my league. The QR cable toggle itself is worth quite a bit.


It's dated '59, so if Martin Coopmans dating of the frame at 1940 is right, it's not original equipment. Also, it's an FM, though it appears to be a steel shell to me. I'd have liked the wide range. Looks from Sheldons page as though it goes further below 1:1 than an AW, but nowhere near as far above. Hmmm.I prefer the FW over the FM, but a faster rider might prefer to sacrifice overall range to get the close 3 gears of the FM. The only reason I bought an FM is that one was OEM on my 1958 Raleigh Record Ace Modern, which I got without a rear wheel.