http://www.evworld.com/library/gao_peakoil.pdf

Peter, I can't find it now, but earlier today I saw a post you made on either theoildrum.com or streetsblog. You made an important point very succinctly. If I interpreted it correctly, you were saying that the role of carfree advocates isn't so much to change transportation policy now, rather it's so we can be around in the future to help pick up the pieces when car culture becomes unsustainable. I agree with that viewpoint.

If I interpreted it correctly, you were saying that the role of carfree advocates isn't so much to change transportation policy now, rather it's so we can be around in the future to help pick up the pieces when car culture becomes unsustainable. I agree with that viewpoint.

I agree with that viewpoint too. Peak Oil was what really caused me to seriously look at car-free living, and what brought me aboard onto this sub-forum in the first place.

Great cycling and pedestrian facilities are a key. However I think a state-of-the-art transit system is also very important - Light rail connecting the City Central to the outer links, in every direction, Trollies or in-street rail cars down major shopping areas and the City Central, etc.

in a sense wouldnt you need to stop them from building over existing trolleyways? For example...the Washington Metro Area has a streetcar system twice as big as its MetroRail and yet we have no streetcars...we could always build/repair old trolly systems and then redevelop those communities. With new urbanist or urban principles in general the older trolly technology would suffice instead of the newer/expensive streetcar technologies commonly seen today.

Also...food can be grown on the rooftops of warehouse buildings since they are so huge and flat. It should protect against most insects too.

I would like to live in a car free city. Deliveries don't need to be made by trucks. Smaller carts could be used to move items for building construction. Concrete could be mixed on the spot for buildings or maybe smaller mixers could be used to transport the concrete. Where were the cars when the pyramids were built (that is if you don't believe UFO's exist)? Using smaller delivery vehicles would mean employing more delivery personnel which I think would be good for expanding jobs.

Having gasoline or diesel powered emergency vehicles wouldn't be a problem. How many would be on the road at one time? Not many. Police could patrol using current EVs like the Segway or Badsey scooters as they already do in some places. Of course they could use bicycles too.

I really liked the book "Ecotopia". It is about states in the western US forming their own country based on environmental principles.

I really want my own house. I'm living in a new apartment now and the layout is great. Its only problem is the walls are not well insulated for sound and the building shakes when people run up the stairs. If I could live in a quiet building that didn't shake and allowed me to play really loud music that wouldn't disturb the neighbors I'd stay in an apartment or condominium in the center of a town. None of the apartments I've visited are that quiet. It's too bad that there are no building codes that would require buildings to be well insulated against noise and vibration.:)

Most of the carfree places mentioned are islands or near islands--Venice, Mackinac Island, Baldhead Island, even Amsterdam is sort of an island and sorta carfree. With that in mind I nominate as the first big American carfree city--New York!

I like the concept that Wogsterca brought up, and I know just the place...Highland Park, MI there is still some infrastructure in place to be used but massive amounts of blight that need to be removed, and Roody wants to convert a couple of square blocks in to a farm If all of these places hellbent on "revitalization" would pay attention to what they are doing it would be very easy to set up pedestrian and cyclist friendly towns and neighbourhoods. Alleys anyone?

Hey, I should've thought of that before too. The first car city should become the first carfree city! And Highland Park is an island, in a way, since it's entirely surrounded by the city of Detroit.

even Amsterdam is sort of an island and sorta carfree.
Whats your definition of "sorta"? I seem to recall driving to and from Amsterdam numerous times and parking in Amsterdam right around the corner from my hotel.

There is a (mostly) car free city in existance right now. It is the city of Avalon located on Catalina Island in California.

It's illegal to make a city car-free since it would interfere with interstate trade etc.

Buttttt....you could make it inconvenient to have a car.

It's illegal to make a city car-free since it would interfere with interstate trade etc.

Buttttt....you could make it inconvenient to have a car.

Where is that law stated?
We have already pointed out at least 2-3 cities that are fully car free, with the exception of emergency vehicles. Nobody said to completely do away with ALL cars, just get them out of the city proper, and make the CITY car free not the country.

Aaron:)

What about Peachtree City?

It's an American city (located in Georgia). The residents get around by walking, bicycle riding, or if they need to haul a load/passengers, they will drive around in electric golf carts. Of course, they do allow cars, but the way the pathways are set up, they generally don't have to.

http://www.peachtree-city.org/index.asp?nid=64

Whats your definition of "sorta"? I seem to recall driving to and from Amsterdam numerous times and parking in Amsterdam right around the corner from my hotel.
IIRC, about half the trips in Amsterdam are other-than-car, many bike. That's "sorta" carfree, isn't it? At least compared to other large cities in the developed world. And it's "sorta" an island because of all the canals and stuff.

Sorry to be vague, I know you're a stickler for accuracy....:rolleyes:

IIRC, about half the trips in Amsterdam are other-than-car, many bike. That's "sorta" carfree, isn't it?:
Maybe in Roody World. Not using a car for a trip, or half of the daily trips in a city is zero indication of automobile ownership/car free status of the inhabitants. I suspect that over half the the trips in NYC today are other than car, but a far lower percentage than Amsterdam by bike. Probably means sorta diddley about who in NYC owns a car, or would, if they could afford it.

Maybe in Roody World. Not using a car for a trip, or half of the daily trips in a city is zero indication of automobile ownership/car free status of the inhabitants. I suspect that over half the the trips in NYC today are other than car, but a far lower percentage than Amsterdam by bike. Probably means sorta diddley about who in NYC owns a car, or would, if they could afford it.

I agree, ILTB, that a city doesn't really sound "sorta car free" if it has 50% of its trips taken by non-car means. But the fact that 50% of NYC's trips might be car-less makes it much more likely that its people are also non-car-owners. Compared to a place where 99% of trips are by car* and you'll find that few adults are non-car-owners.

*during winter, i suspect Anchorage, AK, where I grew up, has over 99% of its trips by car

Whats your definition of "sorta"? I seem to recall driving to and from Amsterdam numerous times and parking in Amsterdam right around the corner from my hotel.
Don't you have a sense of humor? He was making a joke (or at least half a joke because although nyc should be car free, it isn't going to realistically happen any time soon) .

I bet more cars drive the streets of nyc in a day than drive the streets of any other US city in a week.

Don't let the numbers fool you. Sure, only 50% of new yorkers own cars, but the population of nyc is staggering and between delivery trucks, taxis, and cars traversing the city, automobiles are as much of a part of new york as they are anywhere else in the US. New Yorkers are car light because there are so many cars in new york not because new york is almost car free.

Obviously "sorta car free" means car light, which amsterdam is (relatively speaking). In any case, my impression was that Roody's point was leading to the punch line that new york (manhattan being an island) is a good candidate for an experimental car free city, ha ha, as if the defacto capital of america (and perhaps the world) is any place for such a social experiment and, furthermore, as if the fat cats on wallstreet wouldn't buy the last car on earth before letting nyc become car free.

Obviously "sorta car free" means car light, which amsterdam is (relatively speaking). In any case, my impression was that Roody's point was leading to the punch line that new york (manhattan being an island) is a good candidate for an experimental car free city, ha ha, as if the defacto capital of america (and perhaps the world) is any place for such a social experiment and, furthermore, as if the fat cats on wallstreet wouldn't buy the last car on earth before letting nyc become car free.
Right...it was a "sorta" joke. I was proposing NYC as the first carfree city. There's a lot of symbolic value in irony. Now I've moved on to thinking that my home town of Highland Park, MI could be the first carfree city. Even more ironic, and also more unlikely than Manhattan.

Seriously, I would not be surprised if Manhattan turns out to be the first carfree city. The rich people would love it, as it would make the borough a much nicer and more exclusive locale. I remenber reading in the New Yorker how much locals liked the relative lack of traffic after 9/11. The geography and the sociology both favor Manhattan to eventually be carfree, IMO.

What about Peachtree City?

It's an American city (located in Georgia). The residents get around by walking, bicycle riding, or if they need to haul a load/passengers, they will drive around in electric golf carts. Of course, they do allow cars, but the way the pathways are set up, they generally don't have to.

http://www.peachtree-city.org/index.asp?nid=64
I looked up Peachtree City, GA on Mapquest, and there are plenty of roads going through there.
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?latlongtype=internal&addtohistory=&latitude=z%2bwhJre4p2GWeTJHu1vNrQ%3d%3d&longitude=lzwX3acne39MrnYW1DqnuQ%3d%3d&name=Sleep%20Inn&country=US&address=109%20City%20Cir&city=Peachtree%20City&state=GA&zipcode=30269&phone=770%2d486%2d0044&spurl=0&&q=sleep%20inn&qc=Hotels%20%26%20Motels

I do see your link talks about a lot of trails, which is great. If you haven't visited Venice, you should plan to, sometime in your lifetime. It really is like being on another planet. And it's not just the canals...

Seriously, I would not be surprised if Manhattan turns out to be the first carfree city.
NYC, huh. Well, I would bet on that before I'd bet on Houston or Detroit, but I guess that's not saying much.

Somebody pointed out to me, that Zermat in Switzerland is car-free.
http://www.zermatt.ch/e/in_general/

They even advertise as such. There are 5500 inhabitants. I'll have to make it a point to visit there, if I'm ever in the neighborhood.

I'm not for entirely car-free, but I am for a society where cars are merely devices to travel LARGE distances, and makes it very hard to use one to go to the 7-11 for a slurpee.

One answer would be this: There are roads, but there are no parking spaces in city limits (roadside parking would be illegal with exception of business purposes and emergency services), and no driveways long enough for parking a car in them, just lots and lots of bike racks.

The city is also lacated far enough from any other town/city, that it's counterproductive to drive to another city, just because of parking spaces.

This would essentially make it impossible to use a car within city limits (aside from returning home from someplace out of town), while allowing delivery trucks and whatnot the ability to rapidly get where they need to be. It would also force the businesses to spread out and avoid the "mall" mentality. By it's very nature, it would encourage alternate transportation, whether by bus or bike.

The only downside I can see are businesses trying to set up outside of town to steal business from the shops in town, through the allure of using a car to shop there....but I'm willing to bet after people learn that biking is quite easy, and good for quality of life overall, they won't fall so easily for trickery like that.

Here's a list of carfree places (not all are cities) all over the world, from wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_carfree_places

Here's a list of carfree places (not all are cities) all over the world, from wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_carfree_places
Yeah, but this is really misleading. They have Denver down as car-free, when in reality Denver has cars EVERYWHERE. Only the 16th Street Mall is car-free, and still, they allow cars in to park in a Parking Garage, whose entrance is off 16th Street. These little areas are great, but that's really not what I was referring to in this thread.

Yeah, but this is really misleading. They have Denver down as car-free, when in reality Denver has cars EVERYWHERE. Only the 16th Street Mall is car-free, and still, they allow cars in to park in a Parking Garage, whose entrance is off 16th Street. These little areas are great, but that's really not what I was referring to in this thread.
Yeah, I was pretty disappointed about the list also. But they did list Venice (already mentioned here) and Siena, Italy as cities that are very nearly carfree.

I didn't get to Sienna when we were in Italy. If we get back there, I will definitely make it a point to visit.

Dahon.Steve - here it is straight from the horses mouth.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07283.pdf

I didn't get to Sienna when we were in Italy. If we get back there, I will definitely make it a point to visit.

I have a buddy that just got back from Sienna and he says it isn't really car free, that in the old town part they try and limit vehicle traffic during peak tourist hours. That many of the people that live in the old part have cars and park them in interior courtyards or small garages. He also said you have to be quick on your feet to keep from getting run over by the electric scooters, they sneak up on you. Hopefully he is going to send me some pictures. If he does I will provide a link to them.

Aaron:)

A fully functioning car free city would be a pretty tall order.
A car-free city would actually move people far faster to inter and intra city destinations, assuming the mass transit infrstructure is well designed. It is a well proven fact that vehicle traffic flow is cyclic and traffic events create "ripple effects" to other traffic corridors, whereas mass transit delays may be far better controlled.

He also said you have to be quick on your feet to keep from getting run over by the electric scooters, they sneak up on you. Hopefully he is going to send me some pictures. If he does I will provide a link to them.

Aaron:)
I believe this. Although I wasn't in Sienna, I visited Italy a few years ago. Pedestrian rights are quite different than we're accustomed to in the US. Those little Vespas scooters are all over the place. And they're worse than cars for noise. You can hear a single scooter for blocks away. I sincerely think that a Car-Free city should not have roads, only trails.

I believe this. Although I wasn't in Sienna, I visited Italy a few years ago. Pedestrian rights are quite different than we're accustomed to in the US. Those little Vespas scooters are all over the place. And they're worse than cars for noise. You can hear a single scooter for blocks away. I sincerely think that a Car-Free city should not have roads, only trails.

You need some roads, you need to be able to get some vehicles through, such as ambulances, fire suppression vehicles, you need some way to move goods, although those can often be hauled by electric vehicles, you still need to be able to get a shipping container through. However those vehicles only require a single motor vehicle width lane. So streets can be much narrower.

There is another city over in Italy that they also visited called Vernazza on the Cinque Terre he said it was smaller and that ALL motorized vehicles were banned from the city proper by 10:30 am, until late in the day. Apparently in Sienna it is only vehicle free due to the inability of them to navigate the narrow streets. A true car free city could either have service districts or do like Makinac Island an deliver stuff via horse drawn wagons, or electric or? If freight was delivered to the city via rail it could very easily be distributed by electric truck during certain hours. If you really look at what is delivered to a smaller store it doesn't require a 53' tractor trailer to deliver it to the individual store. Deliver to a freight terminal then deliver to the store. It is the way they used to do it.

Aaron:)

You need some roads, you need to be able to get some vehicles through, such as ambulances, fire suppression vehicles, you need some way to move goods, although those can often be hauled by electric vehicles, you still need to be able to get a shipping container through. However those vehicles only require a single motor vehicle width lane. So streets can be much narrower.
Good point, especially the "fire suppression vehicles". Maybe this is why they show "Boulevards" on the car-free city website in the initial thread. I'm actually trying to contact this gentleman. This thread gave me some ideas into making this a reality, albeit 10-20 years down the trail...

You should really read his book, Carfree Cities, James Home Crawford, ISBN 9057270374

I've currently got it checked out and am brushing up on it. Every single objection raised here is addressed, and in a way that does not require allowing motorized traffic.

This book is one of the primary reasons I'm pursuing a degree in urban planning. I think it can be made a reality and I'm going to do what I can to help make it happen.

You should really read his book, Carfree Cities, James Home Crawford, ISBN 9057270374

I've currently got it checked out and am brushing up on it. Every single objection raised here is addressed, and in a way that does not require allowing motorized traffic.

This book is one of the primary reasons I'm pursuing a degree in urban planning. I think it can be made a reality and I'm going to do what I can to help make it happen.
I'm glad somebody with your sensibilities is going into urban planning. :)

I love Crawford's book too, and the web site (http://www.carfree.com/) is even better. I think Crawford is weaker on converting current cities to carfree, and stronger on building new carfree cities from the ground up.

There's also a carfree cities forum (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/carfree_cities/messages) on Yahoo Groups.