Classic & Vintage - Bicycle Liberation

Okay, I have an ethics question to pose to you folks.

My girlfriend's downstairs neighbor has a Trek mountain bike frame and wheels sitting in the yard accruing rust on it's components. It has been there for as long as she has lived there.
I have tried to ask him about it, but he actively avoids talking to us. (argument about him neglecting his dog.)
I'm sure that you can figure out what my quandry is.

Is it bicycle liberation, or is it just theft?

I would offer him money for it if he would just answer the door.

Seeing as how you are not on good terms with him, it would be theft with police involvment, count on it!

Theft

Theft and a further inflaming of a bad neighbor situation. I would stay away, as much as it pains you to watch a perfectly good bike rot into the ground. Imagine the joy he will get when he sees you with it and reports you to the police for theft. Never underestimate people's abilty to hold a grudge and exact some stupid form of revenge.There are a lot of jerks in the world.

This was my thought as well. But it is hard to see it just rotting there. Thanks, I needed some moral bolstering.

Does she have a landlord she can complain to? As in, "Can you get the guy downstairs to get that junk out of the front yard"? Try to catch him when he moves the bike, offer him some cash.

Might work. Might not.

East Hill

I believe the authorities call this "probable cause for locking you up with an assortment of junkies and winos." Heck, it might even earn you a free trip to Guantanamo if your neighbor is particularly crafty!

Neal

Sounds like he is a bit of an arse, so I'd just avoid dealing with him if at all possible.

Tape a $20 bill with a stickie note on it on the inside of his screen door asking him to see you about the bike, hinting at the possibility of more pictures of dead presidents if you think it's worth it.

What's the most you're out... $20 if he's a real jerk and just pockets the bill.

I actually think that this sort of thing is okay, but I wouldn't do it in this case because he's sure to see you with it at one point. In my opinion no one has the right to waste something just because they own it...if someone puts a bike out in the trash you'd have no problem taking it, but if it's been in their yard for 2 years rusting without having been ridden once, why is that not fair game? If you think it's still worth something in the state it's in, leave some cash. Just don't get caught, and in this particular case that probably means not taking the bike when you live right next to them.

I don't live next to him (my g-friend does). He would never see me with it.

...no one has the right to waste something just because they own it......

Yes, they do. And taking something without permission that someone else owns is theft. Period. No matter how righteous your cause seems to be.

No one has the right to appropriate the property of others because they think they know best how to utilize it.

Moreover, we're talking about an old and rusty Trek mtb frame and wheels. Hell, you can pick up a complete Antelope for $20 just about anywhere. Is it really worth stealing, AND aggravating an already strained neighbor relation?

Instead of taping $20's to his door you could buy a cheap plastic sheet or cover and put it over the bike for him.

But he's not going to like you anyway.

Do you have any friends that he hasn't met? If so get one of them to stop by and talk to him about it.

Do you have any friends that he hasn't met? If so get one of them to stop by and talk to him about it.

+1. This seemed the obvious course of action from the outset.

All this feedback has been what I would expect. It is all good advice.
I would like to bring to the table now "abandoned" bikes and the concept of bicycle liberation.

You have all seen those bikes; chained for weeks or months to a parking meter or signpost. Eventually pieces of them disappear in the night. Until, one day they are but bared skeletons with fading paint.

At what point do you start considering bringing your tools along with you on your nightly sojourn? Do you watch passively as it is stripped?.. maybe gently shaking your head.

I like this debate on property. I understand that at some point it will become inappropriate for this forum and should be bumped maybe to the politics forum?. Until then, I prefer chewing through it here.

I share the opinion of Eric Schlosser in his book "Reefer Madness" where he proposes we should minimize the number of laws, and ensure they are strongly enforced.

Theft is one of those laws I think should be retained, and strongly enforced.

While I appreciate the motives reflected in this thread, it is the exceptions that make laws complicated. Making exceptions is the slippery slope to strangeness I don't think we as a society need to spend our time dealing with.

Let me make my point with some terrible examples.

Using the original post as an example. The bike is unused and rusting...

If we make an exception for amount of time, how do we prove that it wasn't used at least once in the time frame... And if the person is in a coma, and awakens, why should they not have their bike when they awaken just because they were out of it for too long?

If we make an exception for wasting something... I have to agree with an earlier poster that there is not, and should not be, a precedent for requiring adequate usage of something. Otherwise museums wouldn't exist, wasting perfectly good items (some bicycles) that would be put to better use. Lance's bike in the Smithsonian would undoubtedly get more use if I owned it (does anyone know what size, it looked about right for me). :D

If we make an exception for eyesores, then we once again have the government (or individuals?) determining what others should do with their stuff. Some things people do intentionally in the name of art, I find ugly, but they do have the right to assault my senses as much as I have the right to move on. I have seen rusty bikes as art (it seems I recently saw a thread here about bicycle gardens).

These are just a few examples, but anything that makes it easier for me to control an item that had belonged to someone else, the harder it is for me to hold onto the stuff I have worked hard to buy (or find :) )

I have no significant issue with the OP's motive to liberate the bike, but I see no way to justify it legally without potentially infringing on my right to control my stuff. :D

Get a buddy to go over and say he is with "mumble something that sounds like Salvation Army" collecting donations and ask for the bike.

I must throw in a real life example here.

About four months ago, someone in another section brought the Registry section a broken box. Why did it get brought to my section? Because it had two full bags of cents in it. There was no address, no identifying mark on the bags.

These things sat in the Registry vault for MONTHS. They could not be tracked, no one ever called and asked, "Have you got our $20 in pennies, because we'd like them back".

We finally decided to send them to the "Dead Letter Office". It cost us FAR more to send them there then it would have cost just to take them home. But the pennies were not ours. No one will ever claim them. But that doesn't justify taking them home.

Near to me, there are two bikes just sitting on the edge of a property. At least one of them is an older ladies model, and I can't figure out what the other is, because things are starting to grow up around both bikes. Every once in a while I think--I should go over there and ask the owner if they'd like to sell those bikes. And one of these days I will :D .

Are you certain that you can't just have a buddy go over to the owner and ask if he'd like ten bucks?

Little Darwin: I would just like to point out that McDave and I were both contributors to the bicycle gardening thread, but McDave won in a landslide.

East Hill

>>> I would offer him money for it if he would just answer the door.

Surely you can catch him outside sometime and yell, "Dude! Would'ya take 5 quid for the frame 'n wheels?". Unless he's Kramer, he leaves the crib occasionally, right?

Oh. . .and yes, it's theft.

>>> I would offer him money for it if he would just answer the door.

Surely you can catch him outside sometime and yell, "Dude! Would'ya take 5 quid for the frame 'n wheels?". Unless he's Kramer, he leaves the crib occasionally, right?

Oh. . .and yes, it's theft.

Not that he never leaves the house - he's never home. Hence the neglected dog thing. When he is home and I'm there, I knock on the door and he doesn't answer. Oh well, it's not important to me. I just had this thought rolling around in my head and wanted to pick other brains for opinions.

And just for information, I have never "liberated" a bike. I found a gaspipe beater in the garbage once though :D - That one I "took responsibility" for, then donated to charity.

No one has the right to appropriate the property of others because they think they know best how to utilize it.

Ironic how our law abiding nation (forgive the ethnocentrism) was founded on this very violation.

I say if you can convince the authorities and your neighbors that you have some sort of divine right to the bike, or the action somehow represents manifest destiny, you should go for it.

I say if you can convince the authorities and your neighbors that you have some sort of divine right to the bike, or the action somehow represents manifest destiny, you should go for it.

Let me consult the scripture... Ahh yes, hear it is: The Book of Lance, Chap 7...:roflmao:

There is a guy in PDX who buys old bikes at garage sales and then locks them up around the neighborhood in highly visible locations, sort of an indy 'watch for bikes' or 'bikes belong' project. Some of them are actually pretty nice bikes, and they sit out in the weather, never get ridden and occassionally get stripped or stolen, but just because they seem lonely out there doesn't mean they aren't serving a purpose.

Forget about the bike, Itll be nothing but trouble as your already on bad terms with the guy, but dont forget about the poor dog, I for one would kick someones door in to save an animal, law or no law, Ill do time for a helpless animal, no doubt.

Near to me, there are two bikes just sitting on the edge of a property. At least one of them is an older ladies model, and I can't figure out what the other is, because things are starting to grow up around both bikes. Every once in a while I think--I should go over there and ask the owner if they'd like to sell those bikes. And one of these days I will :D .

East HillI once owned a rare model of Jeep that kept breaking down on me when I could least afford to keep fixing it. So I left it in my driveway, waiting for the day....

One day, I was thinking "I should just sell my Jeep" when, at that very moment, there was a knock at the door. I opened the door, and there was a guy standing there, asking me if I'd like to sell my Jeep.

Sold. :D

Put your offer in writting. Mail it or just stick it in the door. Most anyone no matter how disagreable will read what thay get , human nature thay cant resist. Just a simple; would you like to sell that bike in the yard for $x call ###-####. Most of the time even a person that hates you will take your money and give you their trash.

Near to me, there are two bikes just sitting on the edge of a property. At least one of them is an older ladies model, and I can't figure out what the other is, because things are starting to grow up around both bikes. Every once in a while I think--I should go over there and ask the owner if they'd like to sell those bikes. And one of these days I will :D .



East Hill[/QUOTE]
For the longest while I would pass a little trailer park, 4 trailers in the fork of the road all pretty beatup looking. The porch od 1 trailer had a blue raleigh leaning against it, said team raleigh on the top tube. After about a year I knocked on the door and a woman about 60 years old and about 300lb answered( I dont think she was a bike rider). I asked if she wanted to sell any of the bikes in her yard, there were a few kids bikes there too. She said I could have the blue one but the others were the kids. I still feal kinda bad I got $100 for it and didnt put a dime into fixing it up.
And your the one that has my pennies I would like them back please.:)

It would be theft. If you have a bike why would you want to buy a rusting trek mtb? Free wouldn't be cheap enough.

It is also against the law to take things out of peoples trash without their permission and has been enforced in court, maybe someones junk is not your treasure and they want it to stay their junk.

vjp

Trash by the curb is public domain. The supreme court siad so, thats why the police can go through it looking for evidence without a search warent. This is america the law has to be equal for everyone. Dumpsters are another story, private contractor.And of course this bike is in the back yard so its not trash yet.

Having read this thread thru, I've gotta say that most people here are taking the moral reasoning. I prefer the simplicity of life reasoning. Like I said, the guy is an arse, more so if he's treating a dog badly. If there's one thing that rankles me hard, it's treating dogs poorly; they're one of the only things on this planet better than bicycles. When I meet a person I consider an arse, I do my level best to avoid any interaction with them; it makes my life much, much easier. Further, if the guy weren't an arse, you wouldn't have a moral dilemma, you'd be able to deal with him. Avoid him if you can.

Look, old Trek MTBs, unless they're the early steel 850s, are about a dime a dozen. Although it pains me to say let this one rust, bikes are like dogs in an important way: you can't take every one home. It sucks sometimes, but that's the way it is. Now I'm sitting here in a house filled with old bikes many would consider junk, with a stray dog I found playing in the middle of Main Street, so this advice probably sounds weird coming from me, but that is just the way it is.

I agree the bike would be better off being ridden, but I don't think that outcome is worth dealing with this guy, from what you've told us. If you want an old Trek MTB, you can find one in RVA easy enough w/o dealing with this fella.

I've removed a couple of bikes from the trash before, and taken parts off a couple of trash bound ones as well. I'd never remove parts from a bike that has been chained up; just because I always see it chained in the same place doesn't mean someone isn't riding it now and again and then chaining it to the same pole. We'd do well to remember not everyone in the world holds bikes in the esteem we on this board do. Hard to believe it, but most folks can't see the beauty, or even utitlity, of an old ride.

And your the one that has my pennies I would like them back please.:)

Put in a claim at the MSP Mail Recovery Center :p .

East Hill

Now that spring is here, there are hundreds of bikes that are popping up from underneath the melted snow, locked up to signs and bicycle posts, clearly abandoned. Most are junky department store bikes but now and then on my commute, it will pain me to see a nice old Miyata or Trek just rotting away. My city has an auction twice a year where many of these bikes turn up once they have been cut from their locks but they are usually so trashed by the time they make it to auction, they are worthless.

It is a touchy subject, liberating a bike but I ride a Ciocc that I liberated many years ago. I walked by it every day for 8 months before I finally got up the nerve to do something about it. I cannot imagine abandoning a Ciocc but someone did and I put new life into it and still ride it as my main bike. It is theft but, in my situation, I don't think anyone minds.

Ladro di biciclette!

You are so going to hell for that one jet!

:lol:

I sneakingly admire you for that one, Jet ;)

Here's a similar quandery of mine that has been bugging me for the long time:

At my university, next to one of my classrooms are a beat-up Huffy cruiser and a lime green Trek 800 series machine chained to a bike rack. Both bikes have been there since December, and they're both sans wheels, except for the Huffy, who's rear wheel is present - it has been sorely taco'ed, and in the last few months, someone did unbolt it from the frame, but left the wheel against the rack. Obviously abandoned - and they get tossed about by the students who park their own bicycles/mopeds against the rack. Occasionally the Trek is sticking up in the air.

I've spoken to the property manager of the University, who said they auction these items off every year, and the auction is coming up in a few months. However, the bikes have to be in their storage warehouse to be part of the auction, and of course, they're not. He said he would see to it that they would be removed and added to the lot of auction items. That was two and a half months ago. They're still there, and nobody is doing anything about them.

The Trek is locked with one of the "BIC-pennable" Master Lock U locks. Should I liberate it?

-Kurt

trek 800 is that the antelope mountian bike? Wait until after the auction if they're still there take it.I got a red 800 at auction part of a lot 6 bikes $5 some auctions you feel like your steeling.Just picked up a raleigh record cool fork.

I might raise the ire of some Kurt, but I say yes.
I can't say that I think your university sorely needs the money raised by selling off students bikes, unless it goes to charity. I have a pen you can borrow.

Last Dec I noticed a fairly nice single-speed Miyata one night locked to a lightpost in front of a parking lot, across the street from one of our local LBS's, but in an "outskirts" part of the city. I thought it seemed an odd place to lock your bike, but did not think much of it. 2 weeks later it was still there, had not moved. I took a closer look and noticed that someone had somehow broken off the BB spindle on the drive side, and the Sugino crank was lying there on the ground, with spindle still in it. I came by the next day, and someone had kicked in the front wheel (nice Rigida alloy 27"). I thought, thats that, and I took the crank home with me, as well as the bent in two wheel (to save spokes and hub). The other side of the crank was still attached. Came by a couple days later, more damage and abuse, so I took out my wrench and removed the egg beater pedal on the remaining crank arm. The other one was still attached to the drive-side crank when I picked it up off the ground. Strictly legal? Probably not, but I just hate to see good equipment being abandoned, smashed and abused by drunks or whoever, and if I could have figured out how to do it, would have broke the lock off (one of those u-bolt shaped things). Last time I looked, the bike was still there, ready to be removed and trashed by the city, I suppose.

Not to hijack, but there is a Bridgestone RB2 slowly getting stripped on a rack at my university. I desprately want to liberate it, even tried leaving a note with an offer for the owner, but never heard from him. Physical plant says no I can't have it. Have to try my luck at the auction at the end of the year.

I'm sure the bike has been abandoned and would have no moral qualms with liberating it, but I'm not willing to risk cutting it off and going to jail/getting a record.

Not to hijack, but there is a Bridgestone RB2 slowly getting stripped on a rack at my university. I desprately want to liberate it, even tried leaving a note with an offer for the owner, but never heard from him. Physical plant says no I can't have it. Have to try my luck at the auction at the end of the year.

I'm sure the bike has been abandoned and would have no moral qualms with liberating it, but I'm not willing to risk cutting it off and going to jail/getting a record.

Yeah, that was the thing with my Ciocc, every single piece of componentry had been stripped from it, the only thing left was the frame and the stuck seat-post, someone had even popped off the headset! I could see rust peaking through and I knew this thing was going to waste away until it was useless. The really weird part is that the frame had been there so long and not been cut by the city. It was on one of the busiest streets in Toronto as well, traffic-wise and pedestrian-wise, I don't know how I got away with it.

The truth is, if it hadn't been a Ciocc and if it were not my size, I would never have done it. I could have, and still could, sell it for a decent amount of money but it now has sentimental value as it represents the one and only time I have ever broken the law. I didn't want a record either, especially for something as silly as stealing an abandoned bicycle but I figured I could come up with a good story....the truth....if someone did call the police.

I have three bikes that have been "liberated" in one way or another. My very first 10-speed in about 1969 was abandoned, although not chained - it was just laying on its side with tires flat, generally beat up. No way could I afford the $100 or so for a new bike, so I grabbed it. Another bike I got from a neighbor's house. They had essentially walked away from their mortgage. They had a yard sale before they moved, and the stuff that did not sell and they did not want got left behind, including a Raleigh 10-speed. The third was on top of a trash pile that was illegally dumped along a woods road on someone else's property. In all three cases, I rationalized that if I had not grabbed the bikes, someone else would have, or they would have ended up in a landfill.

As to "liberating" someone elses's property, either chained to a post or in their back yard, no way. Not worth the hassle if you get caught, even if you are certain that the rightful owner will never use it or come back for it. If you really want to save neglected bikes, almost every dump I have ever seen has a scrap metal pile with one or more bikes on it.

I say we form a movement! The International Bicyle Liberation Front! or something along those lines! :D we can help get these poor chained up abandoned bikes good home! (preferably our homes!) :roflmao: :roflmao:

THe I.B.L.F. ok but can we make it something that spells a worh like S.H.I.E.L.D. or U.N.C.L.E.

How about the United Neglected Cycles Liberation....Entourage? Anyone got a cooler E word?

Envoy?
–noun
1. a diplomatic agent.
2. any accredited messenger or representative.

Envoy?
–noun
1. a diplomatic agent.
2. any accredited messenger or representative.

THATS IT! To the birth of a collective! :bday:

Like I said, the guy is an arse, more so if he's treating a dog badly. If there's one thing that rankles me hard, it's treating dogs poorly; they're one of the only things on this planet better than bicycles.Bravo!

I have a Campy Gran Sport RD that I liberated from the junk box at the LBS I worked in as a teenager. That was in 1974, I am sure the statutes of limitation have long expired, and just like Nixon with Checkers, I am gonna keep it!

Never taken a complete bike or even a frame, though. There were times I was sorely tempted.

There's a bike near where I live, been locked up forever, someone tipped it over and it lay there for days, until I propped it back up. I was concerned that the vandalism would start soon if I didn't prop it back up. Of course, somebody cpuld have just been testing to see if anybody was taking care of it, before liberating it. Part of me thinks I should just liberate it, it's obviously been abandoned, part of me thinks it's just wrong, that it's locked with a u-lock for a reason.