Conflict between horse back riders & cyclists.

[N_C]

It looks like even amongst horse back riders a few bad apples screw it up for the rest of them. But at least the cyclist's are offering an olive branch to give the equestrians a chance to make amends.

http://www.bikeiowa.com/asp/hotnews/newsdisplay.asp?NewsID=2098

[SingingSabre]

I share an MUP with horseback riders and have had no issues. Slow down, ring a bell, and be nice...just like with everyone else.

EDIT: Of course...my area doesn't have limestone pathways...

[sbhikes]

Recently a lady's horse went over a cliff and died when a cyclist came up too fast. She and her 5 year old daughter survived by jumping off the horse as it went over.

[JoebikerLa]

From personal experience, horseback riders are lazy and feel someone else should do the work for them. They will come if someone else builds it, but will not help build or maintain. We've had issues similar to this. We offered them a set aside area to ride in if they would just maintain their area like we did ours. They did nothing and now the area set aside for horses is now ours (bikers) again.

[Bikepacker67]

What I want to know is, why aren't horse-riders required to carry industrial pooper-scoopers...

[sauerwald]

Are horses considered 'vehicles' when on the road? I ask because last year I was riding my bicycle down a road close to home - two lanes with no shoulders and came upon a pair of young ladies riding horses in the direction opposite me. There was one horse on each side of the road. Since there was no motor vehicle traffic, I went down the middle of the road, betwen the two horses, at about 30mph. One of the girls yelled at me to 'SLOW DOWN' as I passed (speed limit on this stretch of road is 35). I know that one of them was on the wrong side of the road, but I don't know which one. When on the road, is a horse a pedestrian or a vehicle?

[noisebeam]

Are horses considered 'vehicles' when on the road? I ask because last year I was riding my bicycle down a road close to home - two lanes with no shoulders and came upon a pair of young ladies riding horses in the direction opposite me. There was one horse on each side of the road. Since there was no motor vehicle traffic, I went down the middle of the road, betwen the two horses, at about 30mph. One of the girls yelled at me to 'SLOW DOWN' as I passed (speed limit on this stretch of road is 35). I know that one of them was on the wrong side of the road, but I don't know which one. When on the road, is a horse a pedestrian or a vehicle?
In AZ:
"28-858. Approaching horses and livestock
A person operating a motor vehicle on a public highway and approaching a horse-drawn vehicle, a horse on which a person is riding or livestock being driven on the highway shall exercise reasonable precaution to prevent frightening and to safeguard the animals and to ensure the safety of persons riding or driving the animals. If the animals appear frightened, the person in control of the vehicle shall reduce its speed and if requested by signal or otherwise shall not proceed further toward the animals unless necessary to avoid accident or injury until the animals appear to be under control."

[JustBrowsing]

Well, the horsies in DC get all the good trails. There're miles and miles and miles of prime singletrack all through Rock Creek Park that bicycles are prohibited from riding on. Only peds and horses are allowed on them. Then again, if they did allow bikes, there'd probably be reports of peds getting killed by cyclists every few weeks, so it makes sense in its own way...

[slowandsteady]

From personal experience, horseback riders are lazy and feel someone else should do the work for them. They will come if someone else builds it, but will not help build or maintain. We've had issues similar to this. We offered them a set aside area to ride in if they would just maintain their area like we did ours. They did nothing and now the area set aside for horses is now ours (bikers) again.


You have got to be kidding me. Before I go to work I have already done an hour's worth of farm chores. It isn't laziness, but perhaps they are WAY more busy than you are. I have never been asked to maintain a trail. Trails I ride on are maintained by the state.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

When on the road, is a horse a pedestrian or a vehicle?
A horse is a horse, of course, of course,
And no one can talk to a horse of course
That is, of course, unless the horse is the famous Mister Ed.

Go right to the source and ask the horse
He’ll give you the answer that you’ll endorse.
He’s always on a steady course.
Talk to Mister Ed.

People yakkity yak a streak and waste your time of day
But Mr. Ed will never speak unless he has something to say

A horse is a horse, of course, of course,
And this one’ll talk ‘til his voice is hoarse.
You never heard of a talking horse?

Well listen to this: "I'm Mister Ed."

[Bikepacker67]

I still want to know why they're allowed to leave 10lb piles of stinking manure on the trail.

[slowandsteady]

What I want to know is, why aren't horse-riders required to carry industrial pooper-scoopers...


Because the giant piles of manure help to cover up all those empty gel packs tossed by uncaring MTB'rs. ;)

[JustBrowsing]

I still want to know why they're allowed to leave 10lb piles of stinking manure on the trail.
To the best of my knowledge, cyclists are allowed to, too...

[LandLuger]

The only altercation that I have had with horses was on a lonely section of the R2T project where the equestrian trail crosses the bike trail. On this particular section--many miles from the city--I can drop the hammer on the lowracer hand and cruise at 30+MPH. I saw the horse and coasted down to less than 15MPH to ease past. Well the horse spooked and almost threw the young fellow that was riding her. After discussing this with other cyclists I was told that the low profile of the recumbent feeds into the primal instincts of the animal. It saw me as a big cat or something attempting to sneak up in the undergrowth. Nowadays, I dismount the bike and speak to the horse before I attempt to pass.

[slowandsteady]

The only altercation that I have had with horses was on a lonely section of the R2T project where the equestrian trail crosses the bike trail. On this particular section--many miles from the city--I can drop the hammer on the lowracer hand and cruise at 30+MPH. I saw the horse and coasted down to less than 15MPH to ease past. Well the horse spooked and almost threw the young fellow that was riding her. After discussing this with other cyclists I was told that the low profile of the recumbent feeds into the primal instincts of the animal. It saw me as a big cat or something attempting to sneak up in the undergrowth. Nowadays, I dismount the bike and speak to the horse before I attempt to pass.


That is very considerate of you. As a horse owner and trail rider AND a cyclist, I regret that it is an inconvenience to some cyclists to either slow down or dismount for my safety. It is nice that some people are more concerned with safety than saving 3 seconds of their time.

I always find it ironic that as cyclists we complain about drivers having no patience and total disregard for our safety, yet cyclists do the same thing with the occasional encounter with a horse and rider.

[tomcryar]

Are horses considered 'vehicles' when on the road? I ask because last year I was riding my bicycle down a road close to home - two lanes with no shoulders and came upon a pair of young ladies riding horses in the direction opposite me. There was one horse on each side of the road. Since there was no motor vehicle traffic, I went down the middle of the road, betwen the two horses, at about 30mph. One of the girls yelled at me to 'SLOW DOWN' as I passed (speed limit on this stretch of road is 35). I know that one of them was on the wrong side of the road, but I don't know which one. When on the road, is a horse a pedestrian or a vehicle?


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070404/ap_on_fe_st/horseback_dui;_ylt=ApNEWUCL5f3vZn8pprHvm1gsQE4F

Apparently Alabama doesn't distinguish between "vehicles".

[rajman]

I have never had a problem when passing horses - I just give them a wide berth. Mind you the horses I pass are police horses that are trained to work in crowds and traffic - I don't think they spook easily.

[Bikepacker67]

To the best of my knowledge, cyclists are allowed to, too...

Really?
So I could just fill up a hefty bag with a weeks worth of bowel movements and just dump it on the trail in front of witnesses without repercussion?

I could save a lot on the water bill that way.

[Wil Davis]

Are horses considered 'vehicles' when on the road? I ask because last year I was riding my bicycle down a road close to home - two lanes with no shoulders and came upon a pair of young ladies riding horses in the direction opposite me. There was one horse on each side of the road. Since there was no motor vehicle traffic, I went down the middle of the road, betwen the two horses, at about 30mph. One of the girls yelled at me to 'SLOW DOWN' as I passed (speed limit on this stretch of road is 35). I know that one of them was on the wrong side of the road, but I don't know which one. When on the road, is a horse a pedestrian or a vehicle?

From your report, I would say that you behaved like a moron! If you'd stopped to think about what was going on, you might have realised that here was a situation where there were two large animals whose natural instinct is to flee when spooked; you can't assume that either was under total control, any more than their riders could assume that you would behave like any responsible cyclist and slow down, or even stop if it looked like either one of the riders was having a problem with their horse, which could have been the case given that there was a horse on each side of the road.

Horses spook easy, and it's no excuse to say that the rider should have been in control, and that you were only doing 30 (yeah, right!) in a 35 limit. The fact is that you behaved irresponsibly, and the posted speed limit has nothing whatever to do with it! I can just imagine the judge's reaction when you point out that you were only doing 30 when you spooked a horse, causing it to throw its rider, leading to death/paralysis/lawyers/grief-counselling/lawyers/funeral/lawyers etc. etc.

C'mon, where's your common-sense?

:rolleyes:

- Wil

[Bikepacker67]

horses spook easy, and it's no excuse to say that the rider should have been in control, and that you were only doing 30 (yeah, right!) in a 35 limit. The fact is that you behaved irresponsibly, and the posted speed limit has nothing whatever to do with it! I can just imagine the judge's reaction when you point out that you were only doing 30 when you spooked a horse, causing it to throw its rider, leading to death/paralysis/lawyers/grief-counselling/lawyers/funeral/lawyers etc. etc.



Hmmm... 30 mph IS slowing down to most motorists.
And they have a loud engine.

[sauerwald]

From your report, I would say that you behaved like a moron! If you'd stopped to think about what was going on, you might have realised that here was a situation where there were two large animals whose natural instinct is to flee when spooked; you can't assume that either was under total control, any more than their riders could assume that you would behave like any responsible cyclist and slow down, or even stop if it looked like either one of the riders was having a problem with their horse, which could have been the case given that there was a horse on each side of the road.

Horses spook easy, and it's no excuse to say that the rider should have been in control, and that you were only doing 30 (yeah, right!) in a 35 limit. The fact is that you behaved irresponsibly, and the posted speed limit has nothing whatever to do with it! I can just imagine the judge's reaction when you point out that you were only doing 30 when you spooked a horse, causing it to throw its rider, leading to death/paralysis/lawyers/grief-counselling/lawyers/funeral/lawyers etc. etc.

C'mon, where's your common-sense?

:rolleyes:

- Wil

I believe that by moving to the center of the road, I was giving the horses the most possible clearance that I could. The two women were chatting with one another across the roadway, so they appeared to be in control of their animals. If they were not able to control their animals then I would contend that they did not belong on the road. I believe that to be the case for any user of the road, if you can't control your bicycle, motorcycle or SUV, you should not expect to share the road with others until you are in control. I do not come across horses in the road very often, my question is real - how is one supposed to treat horses in the road? - Do horseback riders have the rights and obligations of pedestrians, or of other vehicles. Is there a whole set of other rules that apply to horses or other livestock in the road? I have looked at the Maine statutes, and I didn't see anything. I would agree that there should be a certain amount of common sense applied when encountering any other user of the road. I would imagine that my bicycle would be far less likely to spook the animals than the motorvehicles that would have to be expected on that road, therefore I do not think that my behaviour was out of line.

[gpsblake]

I saw the horse and coasted down to less than 15MPH to ease past. Well the horse spooked and almost threw the young fellow that was riding her. After discussing this with other cyclists I was told that the low profile of the recumbent feeds into the primal instincts of the animal. It saw me as a big cat or something attempting to sneak up in the undergrowth. Nowadays, I dismount the bike and speak to the horse before I attempt to pass.

Good lesson learned. Horses are spooked by bicycles because it is an unnatural noise to them created by a machine made of metal. It's best to stop & dismount or if the horse rider sees you, let them indicate how you should pass them. Same applies to a paved road, just don't go flying by the horses, even if you have 10 feet to clearance.

I have noticed on trails that allow both horses and hikers that it is a chore to dodge all the land mines that horses drop down.

They strongly recommend if you are riding a horse along a road that you ride it facing traffic, that way the horse can see the cars coming toward them.

[Blue Jays]

The damage caused by a single full-sized horse on a soft trail is nothing short of amazing due to their weight.

[CB HI]

I have never had a problem when passing horses - I just give them a wide berth. Mind you the horses I pass are police horses that are trained to work in crowds and traffic - I don't think they spook easily.
And brings up the point of why would these riders not train their horses before taking them on a trail that you know you will come across hikers and cyclist. Cyclist being polite to horse riders is good, riders training their ride is even better.

[rajman]

They strongly recommend if you are riding a horse along a road that you ride it facing traffic, that way the horse can see the cars coming toward them.

In my experience, horses on roads always travel with traffic.

[Bikepacker67]

Isn't tarmac and cement bad for horse hooves?

[N_C]

Isn't tarmac and cement bad for horse hooves?

Not if their shoed. Though I think the term is a differant word. I think it's shod.

[Wil Davis]

I believe that by moving to the center of the road, I was giving the horses the most possible clearance that I could. The two women were chatting with one another across the roadway, so they appeared to be in control of their animals.

…how could you tell that, if you were doing 30 miles an hour?

If they were not able to control their animals then I would contend that they did not belong on the road. I believe that to be the case for any user of the road, if you can't control your bicycle, motorcycle or SUV, you should not expect to share the road with others until you are in control.

Bicycles, motorcycles and SUVs are not living animals and do not have instinctive reactions. Even the best behaved horse can be spooked (ask any rider).

I do not come across horses in the road very often…

obviously…

…my question is real - how is one supposed to treat horses in the road?

…with the greatest of respect! Keep in mind that they can weigh anything from 800 to 2000 lbs and something as big as that can do a hell of a lot of damage.

…I would imagine that my bicycle would be far less likely to spook the animals than the motorvehicles that would have to be expected on that road, therefore I do not think that my behaviour was out of line.

I think your bike suddenly whizzing by at 30 mph would be much more likely to spook a horse than a car; for a start, the horse is like to be aware of a car much earlier than it would a bike, and also (according to previous discussions here on BF) a moving cyclist is more likely to be mistaken for a predator than a noisy truck or an automobile; I still think your behaviour was irresponsible, but at least perhaps you'll have learned from this, and you'll know what to do next time ;)

- Wil

[2manybikes]

A horse is a horse, of course, of course,
And no one can talk to a horse of course
That is, of course, unless the horse is the famous Mister Ed.

Go right to the source and ask the horse
He’ll give you the answer that you’ll endorse.
He’s always on a steady course.
Talk to Mister Ed.

People yakkity yak a streak and waste your time of day
But Mr. Ed will never speak unless he has something to say

A horse is a horse, of course, of course,
And this one’ll talk ‘til his voice is hoarse.
You never heard of a talking horse?

Well listen to this: "I'm Mister Ed."


Remember Wilbur's wife? Carol? :D

[phinney]

The horse rider is responsible for the horse. If the rider isn't capable of maintaining control of the horse under exposure to normal road traffic than no way should they be on the road with it. A properly trained horse with a competent rider will not be spooked by a bicycle riding by. A good example is the Amish and their horses - a bomb could go off...

[slowandsteady]

The horse rider is responsible for the horse. If the rider isn't capable of maintaining control of the horse under exposure to normal road traffic than no way should they be on the road with it. A properly trained horse with a competent rider will not be spooked by a bicycle riding by. A good example is the Amish and their horses - a bomb could go off...


Even the Amish horses spook. I see it all the time. They also use their horses for at least 8 hours a day, every day for years. Being responsible and being in total control are not the same thing. Horses, even the most trained horses will spook. It is a guarantee.

Asking a horse to never spook is like asking a person never to be afraid, regardless of the situation. We all get startled from time to time. It is natural and we aren't even prey animals. The instinct drive in horses is very strong.

And, you may not realize it, but in order to train a horse to accept a situation such as trail rides, you must actually take them on a trail ride. You cannot possibly train a horse in an arena to be a good trail horse. It would be like asking you to watch videos of the TDF or riding around the block alone, and then expecting you to be competitive in a race. No matter how much you might train, you won't learn how to be in racing form or have racing skills unless you get out there and race. And guess what, you might even crash a few times.

Handling skills and racing skills on the bike are only learned by riding a bike and being in races. The same is true of horses. At some point you have to take them on the trail.

[2manybikes]

The point is one never has 100% control of any horse, there is no such thing. The cyclist can have 100%control of his bicycle. The cyclist should always give way, and do as the horse rider requests to keep the horse from spooking. It's just logic, not a choice of who has the right of way. Cars and bikes should stop if needed. Where I live it's the law, but not many know it, or even worse they don't understand horses or animals. Anyone who thinks the bike should pass any way it wants to just doesn't understand horses or even animals. Especially fast from any direction. Any one who understands horses would know better.

It's a safety procedure. It has nothing to do with trail rights or preferences. It's just life with horses.
Don't play Russian roulette, be careful around all horses, period.

[dijos]

as a cyclist and a horseman, I will echo the sentiments of my fellow Horse-riders. Horses are Prey animals, not predators. their only survival mechanism is to run. They are quite capable of thinking for themselves, unlike a bike. You, as a cyclist or motorist, have infinitely more control of your vehicle than anyone has over their horse-even if I get off, the horse may still try to run away, rear up, whatever. They have good and bad moods. they can slip or trip, fall down, or a host of other dangerous things.
Think about what you're saying, and replace Horse with bicycle. The speed limit on the street adjacent to my house is 45, no bike lane, no shoulder, and barely wide enough for 1 car, and it's 2 lanes. I'm pretty sure that being buzzed at 45-50 inches away from your handlebars would be a little unsettling. what if you hit a pothole? what if there was a board in the road? The cars will expect, no, demand that you get back to the park, or on the sidewalk where you belong, and if you get hit, well, you should have been in control of your bike.

as far as horse poop, I don't think that it's offensive smelling. In truth, I like the smell; it's just grass, mostly. when did we get to a point that you can expect to go out in "nature" and not ever encounter anything natural? I'm generally more concerned with the occasional alligator or those pesky deer, who appear out of nowhere all the time.

Most horse riders, and I would gather all horse owners, love their animals, and do not want to see them come to any harm. My horse pulled a muscle, and I (stupidly) held his weight up, letting him rest on me while we had his feet done, resulting in a few pulled muscles of my own. I would guess that many horse owners would do the same, no question.

I'm not trying to fan the flames here, but bikes and horses are totally different.

[Bikepacker67]

In truth, I like the smell; it's just grass, mostly. when did we get to a point that you can expect to go out in "nature" and not ever encounter anything natural?

There's nothing natural about mounds of horse manure smack dab in the middle of the trail.
Actually, there's nothing natural about horses in North America, unless we're talking about the Pleistocene era.

[top506]

Actually, there's nothing natural about horses in North America, unless we're talking about the Pleistocene era.

Or humans, either, for that matter:D Bit you don't have to go back quite that far.....
Top

[slowandsteady]

There's nothing natural about mounds of horse manure smack dab in the middle of the trail.
Actually, there's nothing natural about horses in North America, unless we're talking about the Pleistocene era.


There is nothing "natural" about humans in North America either. Go home.

http://www.highlightskids.com/Science/Stories/images/SS0703_prehistoricRefrig.gif