Touring - Rivedell Atlantis vs. Mercian

Somebody please chime in here. Knowing they're both fine machines, I don't understand how a Rivendell Atlantis with one color choice,limited sizes and unknown tubing can cost $1400 US. A Mercian (King of Mercia) with your choice of Reynolds tubing, hand brazed, custom fit to your measurements in 63, 2 tone color combinations with hand pin striping, shipped from England, can be up to $400 (depending on options) less than the Riv!

This doesn't make sense.

Richard

Somebody please chime in here. Knowing they're both fine machines, I don't understand how a Rivendell Atlantis with one color choice,limited sizes and unknown tubing can cost $1400 US. A Mercian (King of Mercia) with your choice of Reynolds tubing, hand brazed, custom fit to your measurements in 63, 2 tone color combinations with hand pin striping, shipped from England, can be up to $400 (depending on options) less than the Riv!

This doesn't make sense.

Richard
Ok, you are on the verge of seeing the light, the truth. Now grasp it and make it your own.

Or continue to drink the Rivendell kool aid. After all, Rivendells are made by elves, from secret tubing, in secret factories, in glades nonetheless, and they use a magical paint that has a secret ingredient that allows only one color for the charm to work. If you buy a membership to Rivendell, you'll even get a secret ring that will make invisible all the smirks from people thinking, "Another dupe."

Have either of you ever bought clothes. Amazing a T-shirt one place - 5 bucks, at a designer store 500! Incredible who ever heard of such a thing, etc...

Everyone has their odities:

Here is some other magical thinking:

- pufery around pipes, sure some tubing is better that other kinds of tubing, but that's mostly a cool-aid selling exercise particularly at the touring level of things.

- paint, wow, they sell different colours! awesome, that makes it a better bike for sure.

- Brazing, good for people who can't weld and think spending lots of money on light tubing and then flrying it while adding lots of weight is just the best thing.

Custom fit, now that IS worth it.

I can understand some of your cynicism. but I'm eliciting a comparison of apples and apples here. Although color as a practical consideration is moot, having a choice is nice IMO. In that I'm looking for a lugged, steel frame,brazing is of course, a must and more of an art than some welding. To say that hand brazing is for someone who can't weld is nuts. I already own a tig welded frame. Less money? Come-on. My question is concerning the comparison of the Riv and the Mercian, both lugged steel touring frames. Too me,bottom line, why is the Atlantis with less options considerably more costly than the equivalent Mercian?

Richard

Everything about Mercian is better. Rivendell is a marketing company. They are marketing a concept to generally uninformed customers who don't know where to look for true value. Mercian is a manufacturing company offering real value for the pound, er, euro, er, dollar. Seriously, choice is better. Experience is better. Quality is better. You have found the true value. Where is the confusion?

The Atlantis seems like a wonderful machine and I still want one, but I went with Mercian myself when the time came to get my dream bike. If you think about it, should you want Mercian to duplicate everything about the Atlantis except for the graphics (plus anything else you wanted to add like midfork rackmount bosses, for instance, which the Atlantis doesn't have), they could, since Rivendell lists the geometry for that bike on their website. It's not exactly rocket science for them.

So why an Atlantis over a Mercian? I don't really know what goes on in other people's heads, so I can't say. I have no basis in fact to say this, but perhaps a lot of (North American) folks think that ordering from the UK might bring more trouble than it's worth, particularly shipping back something you're not satisfied with.

Also, I'm sure there are plenty who really like the aesthetic look of the Atlantis over that of the Mercian - something we are all able to snicker at, but it's part of the appeal. And to be honest, Mercian's chosen paint schemes on their website, with their gnarly metallic grey x rust orange mixes don't do them any sort of justice at all, IMO. There is a great difference in marketing between what Riv is doing and what Mercian is. The Atlantis has lovely lugwork and a nice metal headbadge with a sailboat, etcetera...for style points it's pretty much up there, unless you hate their choice of Bianchi celeste/turquoise for the color. Mercian can be too though. You can get Mercian's Vincitore if you have a thing for stylin' lugs, and the color choices and multitudes of transfer options and little doo-dads like parallel bands and barberpole pinstriping make it a much more compelling option for the aesthete as well as the person who knows exactly what their bike is going to be.

I wanted Rohloff dropouts on my bike, a perfect fit, and a few other particulars, which of necessity made me want a custom (though I could have ordered something like a Thorn), and Mercian seemed like the least expensive option, while still satisfying my unabashedly admitted desire to have a pretty bike. They created for me a wonderful frame that was exactly what I wanted, though I wish now that I would have ponied up the extra $100 or so for the Vincitore, which brings us to:

Perhaps the "problem" with ordering a custom for many is that you have to know in minute detail what you want your bike to be, which takes a good deal of knowledge and planning. I went into it without knowing everything I could have, and I made a few decisions about my own still fine bicycle that in retrospect I might have done a little differently. Mercian was able to hold my hand throughout a great deal of the process, and they questioned a few things that I put on the ordering sheet that I shouldn't have (why get cable guides under the BB if you're going with a Rohloff, for instance), but in the end it was all me, and it took a great deal of decision-making that was frankly hard. Even something as seemingly mundane as picking a color scheme rendered me for awhile something like the hungry donkey in the parable that stands equidistant from two hay bales. He is so dumb that he can't decide which one to eat from, so he just stands there without eating at all.

I'll chime in! It ain't gonna be easy but I'll keep it as brief as I can. as far as cost..ought NOT to be addressed by ONE notion, it may become apparent having taken all into consideration. I can't speak for Mercian, "don't know 'm can't vouch for 'm" (as the Chief said in the movie Fargo). MANY MANY (most) folkes in the cycling world , including SEVERAL custom frame builders DO vouch for RIVENDALE. Some rely on his sizing perameters to some extent as well, more on that later. As far as color; it's all about being able to provide a fine bike at a reasonable price efficiently and rather quickly. ANYWAY..DEFINE CUSTOM.?? Sure you'll get custom from a builder, as long as it meets some set of criteria, within a realm of riding style choice frame size and the like. The custom guys don't allow you to "design " your own geometry either. You'll select :touring, sport ,race...you WON'T have any in-put towards tube lengths, angle per-say.To do so would be silly anyway. Sure we as riders know(or think we do) if we'd rather a liong top tube, aggressive angles etc..it STILL must fit within the perameters of what the triganometry will allow. Frames have been developing for over 120 years, geometries have been established that just work! Before I go on,I find the comments of Skinny ammusing and there may be some truth to it. As far as brazing, lugged ,tigged..too long of a topic to get into, besides custom builders don't even agree on that.By the way, one thousand seems awfully low-priced for custom, I'll reserve further comment.One CAN get a frame that fits one perfctly "off the shelf", get a complete bike as well for less than two..AND test -ride it so...about the price..well..that's a mixed bag. I've investigated Bob Jackson bikes for example, just didn't make sense to me. I've spoken to more than one Bob Jackson owner, one's a dog. B J DOES have an EXCELLANT/world-wide rep..but..so much for a totally "risk-free" choice.I state this simply to address the England/custom issue. I STILL want one some day,wasn't a priority with my present purchase though. FULL DISCLOSURE on frame materials and geometry. Consider this: Conalgo DOESN'T and nver has made a "custom" frame;THEY feel that in offering every single size in CM's(no gaps),they'll provide any rider with the right size..live with thier geometry or DON'T!
Pegoretti doesn't list the exact alloy they use, they DO list geometry. Merx and others DO list exact frame alloy but DON'T list "complete "geometry..NEVER have..not in thirty or so years anyway.So much for full disclosure.
Rivendale, as with many other Companies offering fine bikes just want to keep SOME things simple.THEY know what works,THEY'd rather not have slugs like me and you nit-picking,over-obcessing over EACH measurement and alloy spec. while losing sight of the end result..buyin' a bike that's not WRONG. I'm an expert at buyin' the wrong bike.I have a 45 year history to bear that out. Don't make the same mistakes I have in the past.Get a frame that fits.The up-side of a custom is that they WILL prevent you from buying a "wrong" bike..perfect??
NOT sure!!?? Riv. only offers one color on some models, like I said, they choose to keep THAT simple. The HH
model doesn't work for me, It might for you though. I just can't deal with having to have 650b wheels on my bike in that model ,the size they spec. me for. I like the Bleriot model, I'll buy one sooner or later,an interesting
alternative, versitile bike. For now I have a red Italian bike on oder as my main ride. Heck ,I'll have a red bike,
others too, I fancy havin' a bike in a real nice color,one that I'd have not chosen sight unseen.I have gray suits.
The next suit I buy won't be gray,I will get one that fits though.

The custom guys don't allow you to "design " your own geometry either. You'll select :touring, sport ,race...you WON'T have any in-put towards tube lengths, angle per-say.

Nah. I was able to very specifically state what kind of geometry and tube lengths I wanted, and it deviated from the "standard" geometry on their website a good deal. You can, for instance, specify what length chainstays you want if clearance for panniers versus your very large feet are an issue. My frame has 47 cm chainstays, 4 cm longer than the suggested 43 on their website. You can specify BB drop, tube length particulars - everything - on their order form. If you make a choice that is impossible, Mercian will tell you.

In keeping with the point of this thread, here's someone who wanted an oversized headtube and wide tire clearances on his Mercian, ala Rivendell. Other than the paint scheme, with the handlebars and looks one would think it was a Riv:

http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/2004/e/laumb.htm

Somebody please chime in here. Knowing they're both fine machines, I don't understand how a Rivendell Atlantis with one color choice,limited sizes and unknown tubing can cost $1400 US. A Mercian (King of Mercia) with your choice of Reynolds tubing, hand brazed, custom fit to your measurements in 63, 2 tone color combinations with hand pin striping, shipped from England, can be up to $400 (depending on options) less than the Riv!

This doesn't make sense.

Richard

I looked at a Mercian when I was thinking of a new bike, but in the end went with Riv for these reasons;as mentioned I thought buying from the UK might cause issues; Mercian simply had too many options I was intimidated by their spec sheet; and then Riv came out with the Quickbeam which I thought was good value
at $1300 for the complete bike. After riding the Quickbeam I was sold on Riv comfort.Since then I've built up a second hand Rambouillet and now I think I know enough about geometry to have Mercian build me a suitable frame, which will happen some day......nolug lining though as I think its tacky.

As far as the $400 price difference in frames, remember Riv contracts out most frames to Japan and Mercian does it in house, also there may be a volume issue I'd like to know the annual frame sales of both firms. The reasons for the difference might be interesting, but for the customer they are not really relevant, Riv is good to get you a well made comforatble bike, Mercian will do the same for you, but I think you need to be a bit more of a "bikehead" to be sure of getting a well fitting bike.

no lug lining though as I think its tacky.

:lol:

If you ever change your mind about this, do NOT get the lug lining anyway. Do it yourself with an artisan's paint pen. Whoever they have to do the lug lining has about as deft a hand as a 90-year-old cake-decorator. :p

:lol:

If you ever change your mind about this, do NOT get the lug lining anyway. Do it yourself with an artisan's paint pen. Whoever they have to do the lug lining has about as deft a hand as a 90-year-old cake-decorator. :p

I don't like the look of any lining I've seen, it sort of screams "look at me I've got lugs". The examples I've seen of do it yourself lining are even worse than the current Mercian efforts.

I don't like the look of any lining I've seen, it sort of screams "look at me I've got lugs". The examples I've seen of do it yourself lining are even worse than the current Mercian efforts.

Yea, there are some bad artists out there. I'm good with hand-eye coordination though, so I feel confident in saying I would have done a much better job than Stuart (I think that's his name) at Mercian did. I'm still considering re-doing mine, though it's not terrible. More than anything about the job he did I want to change the contrast color I chose from white to gold.

And I understand your feelings about lug-lining, but my tastes differ. I like it, depending on how it's done and if the lugs are interesting enough to deserve it (mine really aren't). It's common in the old 1940s and '50s master English club bikes that I've fallen in love with, so I guess you can 'color' me a lug-line-devotee.

I think this is pretty, for example:

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/images/British/Ephgrave/Ephg_Chottiner-1_2.jpg

Agreed, its a good looking example, gold is a good lining color, I hate white though.
On intricate lugs it can look good as the "look I've got blugs" thing is sort of
appropriate. On purely functional lugs its a bit lame. I could go for the example
in the picture you show, but I draw the line at those Hetchins lugs, they are just
too over the top.

Agreed, its a good looking example, gold is a good lining color, I hate white though.
On intricate lugs it can look good as the "look I've got blugs" thing is sort of
appropriate. On purely functional lugs its a bit lame. I could go for the example
in the picture you show, but I draw the line at those Hetchins lugs, they are just
too over the top.

Right. Hetchins can be terribly gaudy indeed. I think with the example above that it "works" because the frame is without a contrast color on the head tube, so the lining itself becomes the contrast color.

But Rivendell, for example, uses a really nice cream contrast color on all their head tubes, so the lining is not only unnecessary, it would look weird in spite of their fancy lugwork. I made that mistake, actually, with my frame, though I still love the looks of it.

I don't have a host for pics of my complete bike, and the only example of it online is on Mercian's frappr page from when I first got the frame, but here's my Mercian: (though the pic is a little squashed for some reason)

http://image2.frappr.com/pics2/i/20051126/2/6/7/26755fa356ffd2a998a86fb21d32f0bd0_large.jpg

Good looking bike, I like the green and white scheme. I was going to get a green Rambouillet, but
got a good deal on a used blue frame. I see that the money you saved on getting the Mercian frame
you spent on a Rolhoff Speedhub....nice! I was thinking of that for touring, nice ratios and super reliable,
but I went with the old derailleur set up as although it is probably more subject to wear and failure I
can always cobble some fix together if it breaks.

I think Hetchins look worst when they have different colors for the head tube, lug and down tube.
The lugs of the forks can be particularly over the top. I admire the craftsmanship but not the aethsetic.
Its sort Victorian in its fussiness

skinny says:
Everything about Mercian is better. Rivendell is a marketing company. They are marketing a concept to generally uninformed customers who don't know where to look for true value. Mercian is a manufacturing company offering real value for the pound, er, euro, er, dollar. Seriously, choice is better. Experience is better. Quality is better. You have found the true value. Where is the confusion?
---------------

I'm laughing so hard at your rediculously simplistic opinion that I won't even comment to correct it...sheesh...give your head a shake, man!.

There are lots of frame builders out there.... some bad ones, some good ones with reasonable prices, some good famous builders who charge really, really high prices.

Are these *name brand* frames worth it? That depends--- most of the folks who buy these pricey frames don't miss the money. could they get a better value? Very likely.

Remember bike snobs will pay twice as much for a name brand. Cannondale, Soma and Kogswell are all very nice bikes... made with many Tektro parts. Most of the folks who ride these bikes wouldn't be caught dead sporting Tektro branded parts.

There are lots of frame builders out there.... some bad ones, some good ones with reasonable prices, some good famous builders who charge really, really high prices.

Are these *name brand* frames worth it? That depends--- most of the folks who buy these pricey frames don't miss the money. could they get a better value? Very likely.

Remember bike snobs will pay twice as much for a name brand. Cannondale, Soma and Kogswell are all very nice bikes... made with many Tektro parts. Most of the folks who ride these bikes wouldn't be caught dead sporting Tektro branded parts.

You forgot Surly

Rivendell frames are very good, but I agree over priced (apart from the Bleriot), but the parts that get put on them are not snobby, that's the whole point, use what works, friction shifters, Sugino cranks, TA rings
(yes that's a bit snobby) Tektro brakes. I think if you look at Mercian and Rivendell framed bikes many of them are actually "Frankenbikes" with parts taken from old bikes and various manufacturers.

skinny says:
Everything about Mercian is better. Rivendell is a marketing company. They are marketing a concept to generally uninformed customers who don't know where to look for true value .

I think the majority of Rivendell owners are well informed, middle aged cyclists with a few spare bucks looking for a comfortable nostalgic bike. Sure Rivendell do some interesting marketing, but Grant Petersen has contributed something good to cyling in the US, and certainly knows his market. Mercian could learn something from Rivendell about marketing and Rivendell could learn from Mercian when it comes to price.
Still I paid $1300 for a Quickbeam and I'm ok with that because I fit the Rivendell target customer profile and I know I'll be riding it for another 25 years.

Somebody please chime in here. Knowing they're both fine machines, I don't understand how a Rivendell Atlantis with one color choice,limited sizes and unknown tubing can cost $1400 US. A Mercian (King of Mercia) with your choice of Reynolds tubing, hand brazed, custom fit to your measurements in 63, 2 tone color combinations with hand pin striping, shipped from England, can be up to $400 (depending on options) less than the Riv!

This doesn't make sense.

Richard

Rivendell has completed frames shipped from Japan to the US, which should add a fair bit to the price (packing, shipping, customs duties). Mercian has truckloads of steel tubes shipped from Birmingham (or wherever Reynolds tubes are done these days) to their workshop, which strikes me as a much simpler, cheaper proposition.

Looking at the website, Mercian seems to be a much bigger operation than Rivendell (which isn't saying much, I know), and therefore should be able to realize certain economies of scale. If nothing else, building all those frames in house would make it easier to offer a lot of colors, especially if the frames are built to order.

The Atlantis has more tire clearance than the King of Mercia touring frame, and braze-ons for three waterbottle cages instead of one. Small differences, but they add something to the cost of the Atlantis. Small Atlantis frames are built for 26" tires, bigger Atlantis frames are built for 700C tires. Great for the people who ride small frames, but it probably adds a little to the cost.

It's true that the Reynolds name is better known than whichever Japanese steel mill made the tubes for the Atlantis, but the Japanese have a long tradition of bicycle building and overall manufacturing excellence. Tange, for one, provided steel tubing for some very expensive mountain bikes before aluminum, titanium, and carbon fiber displaced steel in the high end bike market.

Do all these details justify a $400 price difference? I don't know. Are they worth $400 to the consumer? That really depends on what the consumer wants from his bike.

skinny says:
Everything about Mercian is better. Rivendell is a marketing company. They are marketing a concept to generally uninformed customers who don't know where to look for true value. Mercian is a manufacturing company offering real value for the pound, er, euro, er, dollar. Seriously, choice is better. Experience is better. Quality is better. You have found the true value. Where is the confusion?
---------------

I'm laughing so hard at your rediculously simplistic opinion that I won't even comment to correct it...sheesh...give your head a shake, man!.Ummm, shaking my head, wondering, what does rediculously mean?

I think the majority of Rivendell owners are well informed, middle aged cyclists with a few spare bucks looking for a comfortable nostalgic bike. Sure Rivendell do some interesting marketing, but Grant Petersen has contributed something good to cyling in the US, and certainly knows his market. Mercian could learn something from Rivendell about marketing and Rivendell could learn from Mercian when it comes to price.
Still I paid $1300 for a Quickbeam and I'm ok with that because I fit the Rivendell target customer profile and I know I'll be riding it for another 25 years.


Yep. I know very few Riv riders, but here in Northern Cali I should think I know a higher proportion than average, and they are no slouches when it comes to discrimination regarding what they want out of a bike. They are all in love with their various Rivendells. There's a Saluki owner I see at one of the coffee shops on fourth street all the time, and his bike is something else, built with modest components, and it looks like a dream. Rivendell definitely could work on their pricing, yes. For $1400 a frame, I want a custom.

And like you said, Mercian definitely needs to work on their marketing. The Rivendell bikes right out of the catalog are all very fetching objects, and the descriptions of what they are and what they're doing are all top-notch ad copy. Grant appeals to a niche crowd, but he knows exactly what they want. Mercian does a good job of representing their history and craft, but they haven't dialed into the commuter-touring-functional nor aesthetic market the way they really should. They still seem aligned with the racing/speed/Campagnolo element a bit more than they should be. And again, the graphics schemes and components they choose to represent their line are almost all borderline garish compared to what they could show. Even if they went with baby-food bland (like the second pic below) they would do much better than their catalog examples.

When you consider these two bikes below, the first from the Mercian website advertising their own product, and the second showing a random customer's rather plain but IMO much prettier bike from a web page, it isn't a stretch to say that someone at Mercian doesn't have a great flair for the potential beauty that their own bikes are capable of, from componentry to paint scheme. Understated is what they should aim for, and they've gone with rather ugly examples to showcase their own product. It's very unusual that they don't show a Brooks saddle on any of their main-page bikes, considering the huge number of these saddles that Mercian owners on the web seem to sport.

http://www.merciancycles.co.uk/frame_images/IMG_2083_large.jpg

http://www.bikebrothers.co.uk/mercian_gallery_files/craigmontgomery_files/monto1.jpg

And ya, nun, if you ever get a chance to try out a Rohloff, do. They are overpriced too, but over the long haul it's worth it.

The Atlantis has more tire clearance than the King of Mercia touring frame, and braze-ons for three waterbottle cages instead of one.

Look at my King of Mercia frame, the green one above. It has braze-ons for three cages and cranked stays for wider tires (though you can hardly see the latter from the pic). They will do anything you want them to, including by definition things you can or can't get on an Atlantis, and that's the point of a custom. They've had customers carve their own lugs to build bikes around even.

(Not to be argumentative or contradictory, by the way, but it's just true - the KoM is just a name and a guideline. What you get out of it beyond that is what you ask for.)

I think the majority of Rivendell owners are well informed, middle aged cyclists with a few spare bucks looking for a comfortable nostalgic bike. Sure Rivendell do some interesting marketing, but Grant Petersen has contributed something good to cyling in the US, and certainly knows his market. Mercian could learn something from Rivendell about marketing and Rivendell could learn from Mercian when it comes to price.I'm not trying to flame you or start an argument, but you made my point earlier with these words,
I thought buying from the UK might cause issues.What issues? Literally thousands of Americans have bought from British builders for decades and a simple search of these forums would turn up numerous examples of the positive experiences buyers have had with Mercian. Pardon me when I say again, your view is uninformed, as I stated in my previous post.


Mercian simply had too many options I was intimidated by their spec sheet; now I think I know enough about geometry to have Mercian build me a suitable frame, which will happen some day.Another admission that you, as a consumer, were lacking the knowledge necessary to deal with a buying experience. So you bought a prepackaged product based on marketing information rather than technical specifications. This is what I said about Rivendell:
They(Rivendell) are marketing a concept to generally uninformed customers who don't know where to look for true value..I'm afraid it fits you to the t. So when you say
I think the majority of Rivendell owners are well informed, middle aged cyclists, I'm afraid you're contradicting yourself. And the idea that
Mercian could learn something from Rivendell about marketingWell, I have to disagree with Alekhine on this. Mercian has been in business successfully for more than half a century now and are considered a leader in the British frame building industry and a global marquee not only for quality but also for value. Because some people are afraid to buy from overseas or are unable to work through the process of ordering a product like this is not a reflection on Mercian's marketing. Do you have a mirror?

I have to disagree with Alekhine on this. Mercian has been in business successfully for more than half a century now and are considered a leader in the British frame building industry and a global marquee not only for quality but also for value. Because some people are afraid to buy from overseas or are unable to work through the process of ordering a product like this is not a reflection on Mercian's marketing. Do you have a mirror?

Point taken, skinny. Mercian is indeed all that, but the point of marketing isn't necessarily to appeal to people who already know your reputation and product, but to appeal to those who don't too, including those who don't know all the particulars of ordering like BB drop and seatpost angles. I still hold to the opinion that Rivendell has a more appealing marketing strategy, no matter the disparity in reputation among those "in the know."

One of Grant's methods is that in his ad copy, he appears to "talk to you." Say what you want about it being a snake-oil shuyster pitch, but it works, and the Riv products are all of high enough quality for it to be valid and to produce happy customers. Mercian? Less so, although the happy customer thing seems to be as high or higher, particularly since a bespoke custom is by definition customer-dictated. Mercian tends to describe their product, history, and craft, and it's not bad, but it's not the same kind of pitch at all, of which I think Grant is a definite master, to the point where he can make a Ticonderoga #2 pencil sound like the best pencil ever invented (and he does sell these, by the way). Grant sells a lifestyle, Mercian sells a bike. I have fewer problems with Mercian's written copy than I do with their graphical representation of their product, though. (See my post above. That orange/metallic grey KoM, in my humble opinion, is a ghoul of a bike compared to what Grant is offering, just based on looks alone.)

Im actually from derby where mercian are made and have had alot to do with them, great great company, to be honest they are pricey but you get what you pay and the skill expertise are worth, ive dealt with alot of builders over the years and these actually care its not just about making a sell and getting you out of the door but about getting the best bike you can.

Skinny, I have to resopnd ;)

My description of Riv owners includes "well informed" as you implied they were not.

At the time I looked at a Mercian I was pretty green about bikes so dealing with
Mercian was a bit intimidating, this is an example of poor marketing/sales of their product.
Also they were a bit stuck on Campy parts, noting wrong with that, but I wanted
to be able to pick and choose parts. In the end I went down to my LBS
and bought a Bianchi Volpe for $600 rode it for a few years, learned what I
liked and changed out most of the components. Then I bought a Riv knowing
what I really wanted. FYI most of the parts from the Bianchi and now on
other bikes.......anybody want a Volpe frame.

As far as Riv owners' bicycle knowledge I think I'd stack it up against other
owners, but I know I'm not going to convince you of that.

The Mercian website is not very helpful with foreign sales as they don't
mention import duties. I've had to pay nasty custom's duties on imported
products before. What they need is a US distributor, that would increase
their US sales.

Mercian is a fine company, but they need an injection of marketing savy to fully
capitalized on their great bikes and skills. I think comparing Riv and Mercian
as companies isn't particularly useful as Riv is more of a design and marketing firm
as it contracts out its frames, we should be comparing Mercian and Waterford.

Your last point about people's hesitation to buy from Mercian not being a reflection
on their marketing is completely wrong. The whole point with marketing is to get
people comfortable with your product and want to buy it.

Im actually from derby where mercian are made and have had alot to do with them, great great company, to be honest they are pricey but you get what you pay and the skill expertise are worth, ive dealt with alot of builders over the years and these actually care its not just about making a sell and getting you out of the door but about getting the best bike you can.You are obviously "in the know".;)

I think comparing Riv and Mercian as companies isn't particularly useful as Riv is more of a design and marketing firm as it contracts out its frames.Well, you are the one who originally compared Mercian, a very successfull 50+ year old company, with Rivendell, a relative neophyte in the industry, here:

Mercian could learn something from Rivendell about marketing.I'm glad to see you flip on this also, since it is comparing apples to oranges.

Mercian does what they do very well, and they provide a high quality product with a wide variety of choices at great value to informed consumers.

Rivendell on the other hand tries to convince people that they don't need to know what their bikes are made of, they don't need choices in colors, and they should just buy into a narrow vision of what Grant wants to sell, AND they should pay 30-50% more than comparable products, which of course reduces his inventory costs, his manufacturing costs, and increases his profits, but, that's just marketing, isn't it. Google PT Barnum for more information on this approach to marketing.

All right, all right.
No one cares anymore, both companies make fantastic bikes.

Now go outside and ride...

Well, you are the one who originally compared Mercian, a very successfull 50+ year old company, with Rivendell, a relative neophyte in the industry, here:
I'm glad to see you flip on this also, since it is comparing apples to oranges.

Mercian does what they do very well, and they provide a high quality product with a wide variety of choices at great value to informed consumers.

Rivendell on the other hand tries to convince people that they don't need to know what their bikes are made of, they don't need choices in colors, and they should just buy into a narrow vision of what Grant wants to sell, which of course reduces his inventory costs, his manufacturing costs, and increases his profits, but, that's just marketing, isn't it. Google PT Barnum for more information on this approach to marketing.

Didn't the Riv Mercian comparison start with the OP? I just pointed some of the potential reasons Riv bikes might be more expensive, as far as quality goes they are both very nice bikes. Maybe we should be opening up the comparison to other US companies like Waterford, Heron etcs as well. US lugged frames do tend to run at over $1000, do we have real numbers for what an equivalent Mecian would cost delivered to the US?including duties

What I'm getting from this exchange is that you are a Mercian fundamentalist
I agree with your complements about Mercian bikes, but I can see where they can improve. I don't like everything Riv does.....speedblend tyres are an abomination, apparantly like the recent quality of
Mercian lug lining.

Its true that GP started Riv to promote a particular style of riding so their frames reflect that. He's done a lot of good in the US where, in the 80s, the racing or MTB styles had replaced just about every other style of bike,and although Riv is only 12 years old its part of that Waterford/Bridgestone/Heron group. Riv sells sensible components from many manufacturers, while the Mercian default is Campy, that seems a bit more restrictive, but I think most buyers of Riv or Mercian bikes will put the components they want on their bikes anyway

The reducing manufacturing/inventory costs isn't marketing its part of an MRP system and good business. Having said that Riv's MRP system sucks. I'm not a Riv fundamentalist, just a happy rider.

PS I agree with the last post, I'm done now;)

Just as a by-the-by, the difference in pricing can also be attributed (somewhat) to the difference in currency: The dollar is worth more than the pound or euro and the yen is more than the dollar.

If you believe that the dollar is worth more than the pound or euro, I have a bridge to sell you.

Just as a by-the-by, the difference in pricing can also be attributed (somewhat) to the difference in currency: The dollar is worth more than the pound or euro and the yen is more than the dollar.Actually, the dollar is very weak against the pound sterling right now, and British frame prices are still rocking US frame prices.

1.00 Eur = 1.33758 Usd

1.00 Gbp = 1.96530 Usd

...so, about that bridge.

1.00 Eur = 1.33758 Usd

1.00 Gbp = 1.96530 Usd

...so, about that bridge.

You have this backwards, foamy. The dollar is worth less (a great deal less and dropping) than those currencies; for each one of your dollars you only get about half a quid (50p) in Britain.

Oi... I'm a dunce.

"Too me,bottom line, why is the Atlantis with less options considerably more costly than the equivalent Mercian?"

Bikes are made out of stock parts for the most part. If you think the workmanship is essentially as reliable in either; and neither frame has some geometry that seems like a goof, like some frames have a 12" BB height on road touring bikes, and that isn't my preference; and the materials seem similar; then there is no mystery, one of the bikes is a better deal. You were correct from the start. Design, materials, workmanship, and fit, that's it.

Marketing is added value, people enjoy being part of something bigger than themselves, just as others enjoy more colour choices. How much you want to buy into that is another mater.

Welding is more artful that torching together some lugs. It's also more skilled. I agree that's not generally seen in the bike world, though the pendulum in moving. There are areas in life that stick to oddball aesthetics that the individuals involved consider essential. I enjoy classical guitars. The design pallet on those is some Spanish thing. It's hard to sell people on Spanish design motifs from a hundred years ago for most consumer goods, like say an Ipod, but it seems to knock people out of their socks in Classical guitars.

Same thing with the design pallet for lugs. It's like watching a bad episode of American Chopper where they use the five axis water jet to carve a logo in a gas tank and then get a matching tatoo. "Dude that's awesome. Look at the pointy bit and how it contrasts with the cut-outs". Actually I think I'm warming to this...

Oi... I'm a dunce.

....about that bridge;)

I do a similar thing with screw threads, it always takes me a couple of tries
to get the sense correct.

Same thing with the design pallet for lugs. It's like watching a bad episode of American Chopper where they use the five axis water jet to carve a logo in a gas tank and then get a matching tatoo. "Dude that's awesome. Look at the pointy bit and how it contrasts with the cut-outs". Actually I think I'm warming to this...

I was wondering about getting an actual tattoo of an arc of chainring on my calf, but I figure it's probably already been done.

Just a comment from the peanut gallery as regards Marketing and Uninformed Buyers: I looked at the Mercian website. I thereafter researched Rivendell as best I could and decided to go that way. Considering that I am a part time clerk, the $3k+ that my Atlantis will eventually cost me is a lot of money and my decision was an act of the best judgement I have. (1) Rivendell marketing did communicate to me that this is a company that makes what I want to buy and that it is a company that I can trust and deal with. The Mercian site did not. This is a legitimate and necessary litmus test for a company to pass. (2) I am 56 years old, have made several multi-month tours in my life, have owned a bunch of bikes, and have learned to trust my judgement about bike decisions as well as in many other areas of life. I think of bicycles similarly to the way I do motorcycles and autos: I am not a mechanical engineer, nor an expert on bicycle design, nor well informed about the best options in parts models and manufacture. And I do not need to be if I choose my mfg'er and dealer carefully. So, in a sense, I am uninformed about a lot of what goes into the millimeter dimension of bicycles, metallurgy, and so on. But I am informed in the sense that there is a terrific amount of data, about bicycles, business, and the world, that I have taken in, sorted and stored in my wetware data banks and this all is brought to bear on the question "What would be the best bicycle for me to buy?"

Rivendell seems to remain an attractive line despite their pricing and their limited color choices, so I have a difficult time believing they are selling merely to the ignorant. Unlike Mercian, it is possible to find dealers who stock Rivendell and can vouch for their products. I think that speaks particularly well for their business model, considering how small an operation they have (and I've been to their Walnut Creek shop a couple of times). I believe on an apples-to-apples basis you could get a custom frame from Mercian with a decent paint job--and probably as good or better than that on a typical Atlantis--for about the same money. Where I think a builder like Mercian falls short is in its representation through dealers. You just don't see a lot of their bikes around. Where I live, I could easily find a shop that can show me an Independent Fabrication bike and advise me on fit and options, but not so on Mercian. Now that I have built up a few bikes and have gone the custom route at least once before, I probably wouldn't need that advice, but to the less experienced or to someone who had a special fitting requirement, I doubt that would seem as convenient; most would spend more for the assurance of dealing with a US builder that had a local dealer representing them.

CHenry makes a good point-- Mercian isn't a US company and doesn't do great dealer support in the States. Or market hype

Just like the steel touring frames for Jamis, Novara and Surly are made at the same frame shop out of basicly the same steel. But Surly does way better marketing hype.

I haven't forgotten Surly. I didn't mention when I started this thread,that I currently ride a very nice 58cm Surly with, Phil/Campy/Shimano/Tubus,Brooks,etc. This is my 2nd Surly. The Surly geometry doesn't really work for me, i.e. longer top tube than seat tube. Can't get the bars high enough. I'm old school in that I prefer Seat and top tubes to be at least equal c to c and prefer having a 1cm shorter top tube than seat tube,again measured c to c. Having lusted for a Riv/Mercian, I'm about to pull the trigger. After pouring thru the reply's, it Looks like the Mercian is going to fit the bill. Now I just have to figure out the best way to actually purchase one.

Richard

I haven't forgotten Surly. I didn't mention when I started this thread,that I currently ride a very nice 58cm Surly with, Phil/Campy/Shimano/Tubus,Brooks,etc. This is my 2nd Surly. The Surly geometry doesn't really work for me, i.e. longer top tube than seat tube. Can't get the bars high enough. I'm old school in that I prefer Seat and top tubes to be at least equal c to c and prefer having a 1cm shorter top tube than seat tube,again measured c to c. Having lusted for a Riv/Mercian, I'm about to pull the trigger. After pouring thru the reply's, it Looks like the Mercian is going to fit the bill. Now I just have to figure out the best way to actually purchase one.

Richard
Either way you'll get a good bike. If you go the Mercian route it would be interesting if you'd post
the final cost of the frame after any extras, shipping and import duty and let us know what the buying
experience was like.

After pouring thru the reply's, it Looks like the Mercian is going to fit the bill. Now I just have to figure out the best way to actually purchase one.

Richard

Call or email them. They are very friendly and helpful and will send you a print catalog as well as painted bits of tubing if you ask for it and you want to know what the paint really looks like, instead of through the digital camera and monitor color filter. Since you can't be fitted 'in store' unless you go on a trip to England, they will ask for 3 measurements (below) and your preferred riding style and fit choices:

1. Distance from floor to your crotch
2. Distance from your crotch to your sternal notch (the little pit in between where your collar bones meet the top of your sternum)
3. Distance from your shoulder to your wrist.

This all combines into an old formula that will give them a good idea of how you fit a bicycle. If you have other concerns, such as top tube length and keeping your saddle as high as your handlebars, tell them, of course. I sent them a detailed (perhaps too detailed) list of everything I was planning on putting on the bike as well as how I was going to use it. Again, if you're planning on making it a loaded tourer for rack/panniers, definitely get those chainstays longer than the 43 cm on the stock KoM. That's very short by any standard. It's also perhaps smart to get the old threaded instead of threadless steerer and combine it with something like a Nitto Technomic or Technomic Deluxe stem, which will allow you more leeway for handlebar height, but these are just my suggestions. Take them how you will. They can do just about anything you want.

Research what you want the bike to be, and make it. Happy hunting!

Either way you'll get a good bike. If you go the Mercian route it would be interesting if you'd post
the final cost of the frame after any extras, shipping and import duty and let us know what the buying
experience was like.

Just for reference, mine ended up being about $1400 (edit: Not $1300, as originally posted; my bad. I forgot about the deposit) in 2005 including shipping, but I had them fit a Chris King headset on it, asked for braze-ons for everything under the sun, and also asked for the very pricy Rohloff dropouts (those were ₤85.00 alone). The total cost before shipping ended up being ₤634.50 (also minus the price of the Chris King headset).

Edit: They have since raised the price of the stock KoM also. When I bought mine it was ₤375 (stock) for a KoM made with the Reynolds 531ST tubing that I got.

Just for reference, mine ended up being about $1400 (edit: Not $1300, as originally posted; my bad. I forgot about the deposit) in 2005 including shipping, but I had them fit a Chris King headset on it, asked for braze-ons for everything under the sun, and also asked for the very pricy Rohloff dropouts (those were ₤85.00 alone). The total cost before shipping ended up being ₤634.50 (also minus the price of the Chris King headset).

Edit: They have since raised the price of the stock KoM also. When I bought mine it was ₤375 (stock) for a KoM made with the Reynolds 531ST tubing that I got.

Does the KoM come with a head tude extension and is there any angle to the top tube. If you like the more upright style of riding for touring ie handlebars close to level with the seat its important to ask about those two frame specs.

I'd suggest at least 44cm long chainstays and 16mm diameter seat stays. Also if you want tyre clearance it might be good to ask about front fork options. Also for a touring bike I'd ease up on the stock KoM seat tube angle and I'd ask for 3 water bottle cage mounts

Although I think the sheet they send you asks all those questions.

Somebody please chime in here. Knowing they're both fine machines, I don't understand how a Rivendell Atlantis with one color choice,limited sizes and unknown tubing can cost $1400 US. A Mercian (King of Mercia) with your choice of Reynolds tubing, hand brazed, custom fit to your measurements in 63, 2 tone color combinations with hand pin striping, shipped from England, can be up to $400 (depending on options) less than the Riv!

This doesn't make sense.

Richard

Mericians are hand-built, custom frames with superior lugwork and finishes built in a Derby workshop by died-in-the-wool local brits. Their main market is domestic so their custom frames are reasonably priced for serving the local market of customers earning a relatively modest (by U.S. standards) salary. A new, custom-fit, road frame will cost between $1000 to $1300 (NOT $400!) shipped depending on how fancy you want it. Their quality matches the best of hand-built frames in the U.S.

The Atlantis is a cheap, made-in-asia, factory frame with a spotty finish and the cheapest stamped lugs that money can buy. I think they price the Atlantis around the mid-point between a cheap welded imported frame and a handbuilt lugged frame in order to fill a market price niche. Since Rivendell doesn't sell many frames or bikes, they have to minimize manufacturing costs and sell at unreasonably high prices (for the quality) just to keep the business solvent. Based on their historical sales record, I wouldn't be surprised if they end up filing for bankruptcy in the not too distant future.

Keep in mind that the Mercian shop was paid for years ago.

Their overhead is low. They sell frames for time and materials.

Same with Bob Jackson and the other older builders in the UK.

Face it: Mercians are a deal and a half.

Matthew