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I've been riding on Marathon Slicks for awhile on my Swift, and found them to be fast but too harsh - even at lower PSI's. So, I'm giving the Marathon Racers a shot.
So far they're very comfortable, albeit a little bit bouncey. They also don't feel as fast as the Slicks (not surprising, since they're wider, have more tread and a lower PSI). And yet Schwalbe is billing them as "the fastest Marathon ever."
Anyone else using Racers yet...?
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I use them on the Downtube. I find that they are good, fast tires. The puncture protection isn't great, but I find that they ride well.
I'm no expert on these things, though.
They were standard issue on my Dahon Jetstream P8. They don't feel particularly nippy to me either, but I'm happy with them so far. I'm not sure about their supposed puncture resistance, though -- I got a flat from a small, sharp piece of stone that went straight through the tread.
I got a flat too ... whatever it was fell out; but the slit was very small.
I have ridden another 800 miles on the bike with no troubles.
Yeah, I dunno. The bounciness kind of bugs me. I even did a test ride with some gear (about 15 lbs) and I still felt like I was riding on a big spring. I think that'd be OK for touring, but for fast riding I think it'd just soak up some of my energy & kill my speed.
*sigh* Maybe the problem is that I just can't turn the Swift into a lean mean road racing machine after all....
Anyone else using Racers yet...?
Not yet, but I was close to ordering a pair before reading your post. What PSI's have you tried? Could less pressure help?
Jack
Yeah, I dunno. The bounciness kind of bugs me. I even did a test ride with some gear (about 15 lbs) and I still felt like I was riding on a big spring. I think that'd be OK for touring, but for fast riding I think it'd just soak up some of my energy & kill my speed.
*sigh* Maybe the problem is that I just can't turn the Swift into a lean mean road racing machine after all....
Looks like you might want to start looking at a 451 wheelset? I'm thinking of going that route. 451 for the roadie times, and the 406 for commuting. I use Marathon slicks at 90psi for commuting. I'll take the extra harshness for a speedier ride. You just have to get good at lifting your butt out of the saddle and easing up on the grips when going over the rough stuff.
Not yet, but I was close to ordering a pair before reading your post. What PSI's have you tried? Could less pressure help?
I've used 80-85 psi. Less air = more bouncey.
Looks like you might want to start looking at a 451 wheelset?
Actually, I think I'm going to turn my Swift into a touring & recreational bike, and get a real road bike instead. Though if I don't get used to the Racers, I still don't know which tires I'd use for that purpose. :mad:
Yeah, I dunno. The bounciness kind of bugs me. I even did a test ride with some gear (about 15 lbs) and I still felt like I was riding on a big spring. I think that'd be OK for touring, but for fast riding I think it'd just soak up some of my energy & kill my speed.
*sigh* Maybe the problem is that I just can't turn the Swift into a lean mean road racing machine after all....
Why not just use Stelvios then? 115PSI road tires that are under 200 gms. I use them on my Birdy and love them. I wouldn't use any other tire unless I was riding in mud. (I keep my old original tires around for that.)
Why not just use Stelvios then?
The Stelvios (406, kevlar bead) are the only tires I've had on my Swift, and I'm looking forward to something more comfortable. I ride 23mm and 25mm tires on my 700c bikes, so it's not that I'm unaccustomed to narrow high pressure rubber. But whether it's the smaller wheel diameter or some other factor, the Swift is a lot more bone jarring. I'm fairly confident it's not the stiffness of the frame itself, though the fork is probably much less compliant than on a full size bike.
I don't track mileage on my Swift, but the Stelvios are wearing down quite a bit outside the center tread. I keep them properly inflated, so I'm guessing this is due to the stretched
s of gravel that form part of my regular routes. Obviously, the Stelvio was never intended to be ridden on gravel, but I'm actually kind of glad that it makes them wear quickly, as it will be that much sooner that I can justify ditching them for something a little more forgiving.
The Greenspeed Scorcher is the other tire, besides the Marathon Racer, that I've been interested in, but James Swift reported poor wear characteristics on those. I'd love to hear reports about anything else that's relatively light weight, and in the 35 - 40mm (~1.5") width range.
Can't quite bring myself to go all the way to Big Apples yet.
Jack
Go with Primo Comets, these are available in 1.35" and 1.5", kevlar belted for puncture resistance. They weigh in at less than 300g, plus have a pressure allowance of 100psi, plus can be run a lot lower if you want confort, especially the 1.5" version, plus they have one of the lowest rolling resistance that you will find. And they are quite cheap, see Airbomb.
There is also the Conti GP, they are 200g, but still have higher rolling resistance plus cost a fair bit more.
The Greenspeed Scorcher is the other tire, besides the Marathon Racer, that I've been interested in, but James Swift reported poor wear characteristics on those.
Not my experience with the Scorcher. They do seem susceptible to cuts and abrasions, but I found they wear well and once you've gotten them up to speed they are great. My major criticism is their handling characteristic in the wet - but now spring is here, I have reverted back to Scorcher TRs.
The Comets are good but if you find the Stelvio a harsh ride, the 1.35 Comets will only marginally improve comfort. I second Jur's view re: the Comet 1.5 - which is wider then it's nominal measurements suggest and rolls well.
The Conti is not worth the effort and I find the Marathon Racers slower than the skinnier Marathon Slick.
Does anyone know of any measured rolling resistance tests. I know I tell everyone that my Conti's are faster then anything else, but are there any tests to prove anything.
Yeah I have a linky to rolling resistance tests
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/lafford.htm
And here:
http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co..._Tyres_TRS.pdf
Tires...tires...tires...I'm obsessed with finding the perfect set as well.
Comet 1.35: I think these are the best road-bike-feel tires you can get for the Swift. These tires have an actual diameter of 18.75in, so they will affect your overall gear ratio (ss and fixed-gear riders should take note).
Comet 1.50: Better than the 1.35 over the rough stuff, but they ride (as Yangmusa put it) like "concrete donuts". Sluggish acceleration, heavy, and I started getting tread separation after about 300 miles. Funny, the Comet 1.35 tires were way more durable!
Scorchers: I really expected so much more from these, as the Greenspeed test showed they outperformed all other tires by huge margins. This was not the case in real life. Sluggish acceleration, but quite possibly the fastest tire for speeds above 18mph, that is IF you find >18mph to be your consistent average speed over all types of terrain and grades. I don't know about you, but 19mph all day is certainly not my comfort zone. Durability is poor. They're wider than the Comets at the same size designation. Don't ride these in wet weather.
Which brings me back to the stock Kenda Kwests. After having tested all these tires and read the rolling resistance charts posted by Greenspeed, here is what I found: the 100psi Kwest, though heaviest of the bunch, rides more supple and with less rolling resistance than the Comet Kevlar 1.50. The Kwest has less rolling resistance than the Scorchers and Comet 1.50 at lower speeds. The Kwest is not as easily susceptible to cuts as the Comets, and I've yet to get a puncture on them. Acceleration is not too bad, and falls short only to that of the narrower Comet 1.35.
So go figure. I, like many here, may have fallen victim to the Greenspeed rolling resistance tests. Like Yangmusa said, these test were conducted on a rolling metal drum on an electric motor. My real-life test have shown me entirely different results.
So what do I ride now? 100psi Kwest on the back, and the squishy 65psi Kwest (off my Dahon) at the front (for the excellent shock absorption benefits). After testing all these different tires, this is the best city commuting setup I've found so far.
What's next? IRC Metros! They arrive on Friday. :D
Comet 1.35: These tires have an actual diameter of 18.75in, so they will affect your overall gear ratio (ss and fixed-gear riders should take note).
I'm confused--are you talking about total wheel diameter with these tires? My Swift isn't handy to measure for comparison, but is your point that these result in a smaller wheel circumference and thus a smaller gear?
Keep us posted on the IRC's, and thanks for your thoughts on the Kenda's. Very interesting.
Now leaning toward the Comet 1.35's, but so easily swayed, and too cheap to do my own comparisons,
Jack
Which brings me back to the stock Kenda Kwests.
What's next? IRC Metros! They arrive on Friday. :D
Ahhhhhhh....
Two great tires! Excellent choices!
I've tried pretty much everything else, so Avocet Slicks 1.75 are next for me...
I've tried pretty much everything else, so Avocet Slicks 1.75 are next for me...
I've had the Avocet slicks for over a year on my Jet XP and use the bike daily on mainly asphalt, but they have seen some fireroads... I like them enough to have bought a spare set .. so far, no flats and very comfortable.
Bruce
I'm confused--are you talking about total wheel diameter with these tires? My Swift isn't handy to measure for comparison, but is your point that these result in a smaller wheel circumference and thus a smaller gear?
Keep us posted on the IRC's, and thanks for your thoughts on the Kenda's. Very interesting.
Now leaning toward the Comet 1.35's, but so easily swayed, and too cheap to do my own comparisons,
Jack
Comet 1.35: 18.75" total wheel diameter
Comet 1.50: 19.5" total wheel diameter
So yes, you will get a smaller resulting gear ratio with the Comet 1.35.
Tires...tires...tires...I'm obsessed with finding the perfect set as well....
Well, you just saved me a bunch of tire purchases. Thanks! ;)
Unfortunately, I'm concluding that for the specific purpose of turning an aluminum Swift into a serious road bike, no such "perfect" tires exist. Seems like the specs you need to make it accelerate & ride fast will also make the ride harsh, probably due to the frame design and/or material....
Well, you just saved me a bunch of tire purchases. Thanks! ;)
Unfortunately, I'm concluding that for the specific purpose of turning an aluminum Swift into a serious road bike, no such "perfect" tires exist. Seems like the specs you need to make it accelerate & ride fast will also make the ride harsh, probably due to the frame design and/or material....
You can run lightweight, low spoke-count wheels and Stelvios lights, as I do, they are fast and responsive.. I'm using a Pantour hub to take the edge off of the harshness and allows the front wheel to 'work' over road irregularities...
Bruce
You can run lightweight, low spoke-count wheels and Stelvios lights, as I do, they are fast and responsive.. I'm using a Pantour hub to take the edge off of the harshness and allows the front wheel to 'work' over road irregularities...
Bruce
Bruce,
That is a great looking bike... very cool
doncha love Bruce's chainring ... got to be => 60.
58 - any more takers?
Good to hear that you like the Avocets, Bruce - hard to find much about them. I was hoping they would roll like the Comp Pools of old. I guess they are pretty weighty though...
As regards tyres - it is very difficult to compare like with like. PSI, rider weight, road conditions, bike set-up etc. all affect the way a tyre performs. This is not to say that we cannot extrapolate from the data, or other peoples preferences, but it is hard to be categorical on the issue...
As regards tyres - it is very difficult to compare like with like. PSI, rider weight, road conditions, bike set-up etc. all affect the way a tyre performs. This is not to say that we cannot extrapolate from the data, or other peoples preferences, but it is hard to be categorical on the issue...
So true. Does anyone else here read Bicycle Quarterly, formerly Vintage Bicycle Quarterly? It's a great publication that routinely highlights the benefits of older designs. Recently they've been running articles on tires that have included some pretty rigorous testing on a roll-down asphalt track, as opposed to most testing that's done on steel drums.
In addition to reaffirming that wider tires (up to a point) can be faster than narrow ones, that clinchers can be faster than tubulars, and that greater pressure (once you're up to something reasonable) doesn't result in significantly reduced rolling resistance, they have found that there's little correlation between what subjectively "feels" fast and what actually measures fast. Just because a tire feels like it's slowing you down, doesn't mean it actually is.
But then, as long as we're not competing, perhaps the subjective sensation is more important than the actual performance? Everyone's got to decide that on their own.
Now seriously OT: I just put some 32mm Paselas on my 700c fixed gear bike. They each weigh a good 160 gr. more than the Conti Ultra 2000's they replaced. Yes, I felt slow, and as if I were spinning massive flywheels. But once a rhythm was established, I guess they were ok. Even uphill I'm not sure they affected my performance significantly. And they were plush.
But they won't stay on long.
Jack
58 - any more takers?
Good to hear that you like the Avocets, Bruce - hard to find much about them. I was hoping they would roll like the Comp Pools of old. I guess they are pretty weighty though...
As regards tyres - it is very difficult to compare like with like. PSI, rider weight, road conditions, bike set-up etc. all affect the way a tyre performs. This is not to say that we cannot extrapolate from the data, or other peoples preferences, but it is hard to be categorical on the issue...
Winner! F&T!! 58t it is with 11-34 9spd, Sram X-7 and thumb shifter.. Mighty M was probably thrown off by the elliptical illusion of the photo and his desire to see me spin a big gear..
I don't know if you've seen the Gaerlan Site (http://www.gaerlan.com/bikeparts/parts/406wheel/wheelbmx.html), but they list the tires as used by solar racers because of low rolling resistance.. the Avocets also don't weigh appreciably more than other road tires in their size.. one thing for sure, they are very comfortable at 80 or 85psi.
Bruce
Bruce,
That is a great looking bike... very cool
Thanks, it gets it share of comments from the groups I ride with... I've done a few 50 milers on it, may do a century this year, probably not in hilly Marin, but who knows.. I do have a pair of Marathon racers ready for when the Stelvios wear out, so I will be able to comment on them at a later date.
Bruce
OK, so I test-rode a few road bikes today, including a full carbon bike. For the level I'm at, and the way I like to ride, I think I'm going to pass on the 700c road bike for awhile. Instead I'm just going to amp up the Swift a little more.
So, I guess the tire hunt continues! Unfortunately the Racers are still driving me nuts, I inflated the rear to 90 psi and it still feels like I'm on a f'in pogo stick sometimes. I'm tempted to switch back to the Slicks.
Are any of the other Racer users noticing this, or am I just slowly losing my mind? ;)
And James_Swift / anyone else who's used 'em: How do the Comet 1.35's rack up, in terms of comfort, to the Kenda Kwest 65 psi's, or if you've used them, the Marathon Slicks? Can some of the harshness be killed with, say, a carbon fiber handlebar and a more compliant saddle?
Bacci, have you tried Vredestein S-Licks? Sort of half way between Primo Comet Kevlars and Kenda Kwests. The Kwest are definitely more massive, slower accelerating, have more flywheel effect, are more prone to nicks and cuts, but they ride great, stick like glue in turns, and wear acceptably for a softer compound. The PCKs, for a very fast tire, stick surprisingly well in turns, wear well, but spinskins are recommended. The S-Lick, to me, splits the difference ... less harsh than the PCKs and faster than the KKs. The S-Licks also have a strong following among 'bent riders.
Check out http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/rolrec10b.pdf
A Primo at 140 psi anyone?
{yep, Bruce your Swift has such a go-fast lookin' chain ring, I really wanted it to be more than 60}
maunakea: So far I've been using stock tires (Kenda) and working my way through the Schwalbe product line. ;) They're fairly easy to get, and usually I've only changed tires when the old ones fail or get worn.
Good to hear that you like the Avocets, Bruce - hard to find much about them. I was hoping they would roll like the Comp Pools of old. I guess they are pretty weighty though...
I'm not sure if the Comp Pools of old are much different than what'a available today (the suggested max psi has been reduced from 85 to 65), but Tioga Comp Pools are available from Gaerlan and Calhoun Cycle and are a little less expensive than the Avocets, and according to Gaerlan they weigh 1 oz less than the Avocets. They're what I am using now. I haven't tried the Avocets but the Comp Pools are more comfortable and seem to roll faster than the Kenda Quests (100psi) that came with my Xootr Swift.
Jonathan
... usually I've only changed tires when the old ones fail or get worn.
Wow! You live in a place where they sweep the roads.
Wow! You live in a place where they sweep the roads.
Err, I guess, except that I take my bike all over including on tour....
Mind you, I get the occasional flat, but rarely one so bad it trashes the tire. Otherwise, unless the tire really sucks, I swap 'em out around 2000 miles.
I inflated the rear to 90 psi and it still feels like I'm on a f'in pogo stick sometimes. I'm tempted to switch back to the Slicks.
Are any of the other Racer users noticing this, or am I just slowly losing my mind
I think pressure is the real issue here - the wider the tyre, the less pressure you need. Can't you drop it down to 75/80psi or so - you may notice a difference in comfort then.
I prefer Slicks to Racers and I usually have them around the 85psi mark.
OK, so I test-rode a few road bikes today, including a full carbon bike. For the level I'm at, and the way I like to ride, I think I'm going to pass on the 700c road bike for awhile. Instead I'm just going to amp up the Swift a little more.
So, I guess the tire hunt continues! Unfortunately the Racers are still driving me nuts, I inflated the rear to 90 psi and it still feels like I'm on a f'in pogo stick sometimes. I'm tempted to switch back to the Slicks.
Are any of the other Racer users noticing this, or am I just slowly losing my mind? ;)
And James_Swift / anyone else who's used 'em: How do the Comet 1.35's rack up, in terms of comfort, to the Kenda Kwest 65 psi's, or if you've used them, the Marathon Slicks? Can some of the harshness be killed with, say, a carbon fiber handlebar and a more compliant saddle?
I use the racers with the front/rear at 70/80 psi. I think that the ride is pretty compliant with little loss of efficiency.
So, I guess the tire hunt continues! Unfortunately the Racers are still driving me nuts, I inflated the rear to 90 psi and it still feels like I'm on a f'in pogo stick sometimes. I'm tempted to switch back to the Slicks.
Are any of the other Racer users noticing this, or am I just slowly losing my mind? ;)
This all seems like a luxury conversation to me, since I really only have access to 5 tires in my wheel size.
But Bacciagalupe, I know this seems like a funny suggestion to an experienced bicyclist, but, have you checked your pressure guage?
The guages on floor pumps are rarely accurate, and the accuracy drops over time. You can confirm with a hand guage or a pump at your LBS...I'm planning on doing the same, but just b/c I'm paranoid. My Marathon Racers don't seem too bouncy to me at 85 PSI.
This all seems like a luxury conversation to me, since I really only have access to 5 tires in my wheel size.
But Bacciagalupe, I know this seems like a funny suggestion to an experienced bicyclist, but, have you checked your pressure guage?
The guages on floor pumps are rarely accurate, and the accuracy drops over time. You can confirm with a hand guage or a pump at your LBS...I'm planning on doing the same, but just b/c I'm paranoid. My Marathon Racers don't seem too bouncy to me at 85 PSI.
I agree on both points ... that pump gauges lose their accuracy and pumping the tires to 85 PSI doesn't result in a bouncy feel for me.
-G
I'm reasonably certain my floor pump's gauge is ok. It's pretty new. I'll have my mechanic double-check when I get a tune-up.
I switched back to the Slicks.... Noticeable difference in terms of acceleration. I think once you've got some speed it's about the same. Oddly enough, I'm still feeling a little bounciness -- so maybe it's been there all along. Either that, or something is just out of adjustment on the bike.
Hey Bac,
I can't find a thread where we both mentioned the Marathon Racer. I wanted to correct a statement about their durability. I wrote something on the order that they last 3K + miles on the Bike Friday this year.
Turns out that somewhere along the way, my wife and I switched tires. So I don't know how many miles I have done on the set of Racers being used at the moment.
Although "a lot" is still a safe bet. ;)
-G
Yeah I have a linky to rolling resistance tests
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/lafford.htm
Do you think the wattage figures given are for two tyres or one?
Anyone else using Racers yet...?
I've been using Marathon Racers on my folder and my Surly LHT & couldn't be happier with them. I've put about four thousand miles on the Surly without a flat. They seem pretty fast for such a wide tire.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/81/259954467_e0c0799383_o.jpg
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