"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Anybody ever get a race fitting, and have your stem flipped up?

Hmm...

Well, the jury is still out on this - and I'm having a seriously hard time not breaking out my allen wrenches and putting my stem flat again.

Today, I had a local coach/ex-pro do a fitting on my bike in the hopes of straightening out some of my knee issues. The good news is that I'm apparently pretty good at setting up my own seat height/fore/aft and cleat angle - he made some minor adjustments there that felt good, but nothing earth shaking. Did some video analysis, and as is par for most of his fittings that I've seen done for others - flipped the stem up!

This was a serious emotional event for me ( :p ) since I have modeled my race bike's position after - guess who? Pro Tour guys. Nobody has their stem up unless it's a climbing stage from what I've observed. We talked about it for a while, and my contention that I'd be more aero with a flat stem was countered by his statement that I'd see a lower HR overall while riding slightly more upright, I'd have my elbows bent more, and be more comfortable, and thus produce more power.

I'll keep it like this for a while, and see what happens - but seeing as right now, post knee injury I haven't been able to do any sprinting work - I'm thinking that any success I'm going to see this race season is going to be based on long aerobic efforts...which will be helped by being as aero as possible...I'm still skeptical.

We did a 3 hour slow, base, ride after the fitting, and my average power was 160 - with an average HR of 108. In the past, for longer rides of similar AP, I have seen slightly higher HRs - so there is probably something to be said for more power at a lower HR. I just wonder at what point a few watts saved from a more open position is going to be outweighed by being less aero.

it depends. If you bend your elbows, you lose no aero effect. For me however, I prefer little elbow bend because it is less strain on the triceps (unlike most bike racers I have upper body mass so long hours of supporting that in a bent elbow position is tiring).

To know the answer to your question, you will have to book some time in the tunnel.

I have a slight rise in my stem right now. I was tempted to flip it, but I don't think I have ever had a bike fit me as perfectly as this one does. I decided to leave the stem alone.

As it is, the bars are still lower than the saddle, and I feel like I'm in a pretty aero, aggressive position when on the drops.

I'd suggest that you go ahead and do 200 miles or so with the stem like it is...and then revisit the idea of flipping.

Well....

I had my first fitting done last July...fixed all the aches and pains I had on the bike. Then I got an adjustment done this past winter, in which I went to a wider handlebar, shorter stem, and the guy removed some spacers while flipping my stem up. I actually have more drop now than I did before, but my bike doesn't "look as cool".

It works, so I'm happy.

Well....

I had my first fitting done last July...fixed all the aches and pains I had on the bike. Then I got an adjustment done this past winter, in which I went to a wider handlebar, shorter stem, and the guy removed some spacers while flipping my stem up. I actually have more drop now than I did before, but my bike doesn't "look as cool".

It works, so I'm happy.

:beer:

it depends. If you bend your elbows, you lose no aero effect. For me however, I prefer little elbow bend because it is less strain on the triceps (unlike most bike racers I have upper body mass so long hours of supporting that in a bent elbow position is tiring).

To know the answer to your question, you will have to book some time in the tunnel.

I don't have any hills long enough to replicate your "poor man's" wind tunnel...so I guess the question I'd pose to the forum et. al. is, why do all the pros have the flat stems if the effect can be replicated simply by bending one's elbows?

Reason? Tradition? Both?

I'm going to stick with it for a while, and see what I feel like.

It's not the stem - it's your back that matters. Flat back is what you want. A lot of guys cut their forks short and end up NOT riding in the drops as much as they should be - because now the drops are TOO low for them. No one's going to say anything as you blow by them in the drops on your training rides, other than - "The f*ck was that?"

FWIW, I ride with mine flipped down - but I have 1.5 inch of spacers above the headtube. I also found stretching [touching toes/floor] really helps me stay in the drops for ~80% of my ride. I know I look like a wanna-be racer - but my muscles will be better adapted to being aero.

Pros are undoubtedly VERY flexible. A long stem in the drops gets them even lower than a regular Joe. Something some people forget beyond intervals and tactics - is flexibility. [Search RB forums for flexibility on the thread title - you get 4]
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=161097&highlight=flexibility

Position takes practice - just like everything else. Why should our attention be neglected from any aspect of racing development?

Mine is up because that's how it fits. Period. I can flip it down and it'll look racier, but I'll never use the drops and get a knot between my shoulder blades. I think it's just how all the angles come together on the bike with my anatomy. So be it.

Yes. But he also took 2 spacers out. Net result? Bars are at the exact same height. Only now I'm slower because I don't look as poseurific :rolleyes:

I was born with my stem flipped.

I have a friend who I raced with in college who moved to Colorado last year to try his luck as a full-time professional road racer. When he came back a few months later I noticed his bike on a saturday morning group ride had the stem flipped up . . . waaay up. I asked him about it and he had a fitting done at some high-tech place in Boulder and that is what they came up with. Said it increased his wattage by 8-10%.

Yes. But he also took 2 spacers out. Net result? Bars are at the exact same height. Only now I'm slower because I don't look as poseurific :rolleyes:

oh is THAT the reason? :D

on-topic, you paid the guy to fit you to the bike, right? I'd go with his recommendations for a while at least. In theory he knows what he's doing.

oh is THAT the reason? :D

Oh, most definitely. Well, that, and the hairy legs. All of that ugliness rolling along just creates extra drag.


:D

Well a stem flipped up will be both lighter and stiffer than one flipped down with spacers...and both can give the same position. Mine is flipped up but there is still a couple inch drop from the saddle. I guess it doesnt look cool...dont mcuh care. A friend also got a pro fitting and they flipped his stem up as well. He was definitely having an image issue about it.

He was definitely having an image issue about it.

I guess a guy's gotta decide whether he wants to enter a beauty pageant or a bike race.

on-topic, you paid the guy to fit you to the bike, right? I'd go with his recommendations for a while at least. In theory he knows what he's doing.

Pffbt, he's just an ex-euro pro and Olympic alternate - I on the other hand am a just slightly above average CAT-4 who reads bike forums!

;)

The stem is still flipped up.

When I got my professional fitting I ended up with the flipped-up stem and a couple spacers (less than an inch, don't remember exactly as my bike isn't in front of me). My saddle-handlebar drop is very minimal, but then I had some pre-existing circumstances that I had to work with in my fit (I broke my 5th and 6th cervical vertebrae).

It would seem (to me, at least) that some of you have some who question not having your stem flipped have some OCP issues that you need to get over. It's not written in stone that a race bike must have a flipped-down stem. I would tend to trust a professional bike-fit-person before I trust my own feeling that the stem should be down on a race bike, but that's just me.

Pffbt, he's just an ex-euro pro and Olympic alternate - I on the other hand am a just slightly above average CAT-4 who reads bike forums!

;)

The stem is still flipped up.

See, I think you resolved the issue you had!

:p

It reminds me of the current trand in "street-race" cars to be very "raked", with a very low front, even though it is quite often very detrimental to the handling.

Mine is flipped up and works very nicely.

Your going to put out a lot more power in a less aero position, thats a pretty much given.

People ride TT bikes for a reason, being aero is more beneficial then putting out more watts.

That said, Ive currently got a 120mm -17 degree stem and about 5-6 inches of saddle to bar drop, I can get very low on the bike and still be comfortable. The way the guys at the shop fit me was, get as low as you can while still being comfortable on 50 miles rides on the hoods.

Your going to put out a lot more power in a less aero position, thats a pretty much given.

People ride TT bikes for a reason, being aero is more beneficial then putting out more watts.

That said, Ive currently got a 120mm -17 degree stem and about 5-6 inches of saddle to bar drop, I can get very low on the bike and still be comfortable. The way the guys at the shop fit me was, get as low as you can while still being comfortable on 50 miles rides on the hoods.

The coach said that I can get just as aero in the drops as before the stem flippage. What the idea is that I'll be more relaxed while in the draft, and then when it counts I can get low, and turn the dial to 400w...I need to look at the videos, but it sorta makes sense.

The coach said that I can get just as aero in the drops as before the stem flippage. What the idea is that I'll be more relaxed while in the draft, and then when it counts I can get low, and turn the dial to 400w...I need to look at the videos, but it sorta makes sense.

Let us know how it works for you, maybe your fitter is on to something.

Your going to put out a lot more power in a less aero position, thats a pretty much given.

People ride TT bikes for a reason, being aero is more beneficial then putting out more watts.

That said, Ive currently got a 120mm -17 degree stem and about 5-6 inches of saddle to bar drop, I can get very low on the bike and still be comfortable. The way the guys at the shop fit me was, get as low as you can while still being comfortable on 50 miles rides on the hoods.

I do not possess any knowledge or skill of a professional bike-fitter, just thinking "logically"

If you are already as low as you can comfortably go when on the hoods, how are you going to ride for any extended period of time in the drops?

That just doesn't make sense to me.

I flipped mine up so that I'm more comfy in the drops. It may not look pretty, and I may not "look" aero, but it definately works when I feel like making a break.

I do not possess any knowledge or skill of a professional bike-fitter, just thinking "logically"

If you are already as low as you can comfortably go when on the hoods, how are you going to ride for any extended period of time in the drops?

That just doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not going to ride 80 miles in the drops. I only ride in the drops for maybe 10 miles out of a 45 mile race and really I dont at all during the week unless its a training race or intervals.

I also found stretching [touching toes/floor] really helps me stay in the drops for ~80% of my ride. I know I look like a wanna-be racer - but my muscles will be better adapted to being aero.

Pros are undoubtedly VERY flexible. A long stem in the drops gets them even lower than a regular Joe. Something some people forget beyond intervals and tactics - is flexibility. [Search RB forums for flexibility on the thread title - you get 4]
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=161097&highlight=flexibility

Position takes practice - just like everything else. Why should our attention be neglected from any aspect of racing development?

on my trainer rides, i rode drops all winter, and rode my fixie in the drops commuting. i am soooo much more flexible this year for racing. it is unbelievable difference.

stem flip is ocp friendly & not always fit friendly.

Right now I'm recovering from a back injury so I've got 50 mm of spacers and a 30 degree stem flipped up.

Ride with it and don't worry about it.

Well....

I had my first fitting done last July...fixed all the aches and pains I had on the bike. Then I got an adjustment done this past winter, in which I went to a wider handlebar, shorter stem, and the guy removed some spacers while flipping my stem up. I actually have more drop now than I did before, but my bike doesn't "look as cool".

It works, so I'm happy.

Guitar,

Who did your fitting ? Where and how much ??
Just curious.....

J.

You think a flip is bad? I just got fitted (hence digging up this thread) and was recommended a 130mm +17 stem (currently 120mm +7). Ouch. I ride the largest model already, so it's hard to say I didn't buy big enough. The fitter suggested the next time I'm bike shopping, to go custom. When I groaned at his recommendation, he said what someone else her mentioned, "it's bike riding, not a beauty contest." No less, I'm cringing at the mere thought of what my poor bike's going to look like when the stem arrives.

I have a friend who I raced with in college who moved to Colorado last year to try his luck as a full-time professional road racer. When he came back a few months later I noticed his bike on a saturday morning group ride had the stem flipped up . . . waaay up. I asked him about it and he had a fitting done at some high-tech place in Boulder and that is what they came up with. Said it increased his wattage by 8-10%.

We did a fitting on a guy and he was 15% better in power when we decreased his drop from the seat, and he said, and I quote, "But it doesn't look cool." We stood there for almost five minutes, unable to speak. We were incredulous. Same deal with a triathlete, road bike/aero bar setup.

...but at Bikeforums, it doesn't matter what works best, but what looks best.

Personally, I like motoring past people on climbs when they are sitting up and I am in the drops...especially into a head wind.

If you set your bike up yourself and really don't understand the dynamics of a good fit, you have no idea if you are in the best and most powerful position. You are riding the bike around your setup. The opposite is what you want. Your setup needs to address the way you ride the bike.

...and there aren't any pro tour riders here.

The last guy to win the Giro and the Tour de France in the same year had very little drop between the seat and bars.

I'm not going to ride 80 miles in the drops. I only ride in the drops for maybe 10 miles out of a 45 mile race and really I dont at all during the week unless its a training race or intervals.

You might find your bike handling a lot better if your center of gravity was lower and especially on descents and around corners.

Sitting up, your C.O.G. is higher and the bike handles in a much different way.

Part of the problem that riders that do their own setups without knowing how, have, is vision. They are tipped so far down that they have to really pull their heads up to see. So they ride on the hoods. If your setup's good, you should be able to see up the road without a problem from the drops without picking your head up. And on a 45 mile ride, straining your neck from the drops will hurt.
Thus, riders sit up.

Guitar,

Who did your fitting ? Where and how much ??
Just curious.....

J.

Sorry for the delay.....

Bill Peterson did my first fitting; then when my cleat moved and things got all out of whack, I went to Brian Case (since Bill lives in Arizona). I think Brian charges $100/hour.

Yes. But he also took 2 spacers out. Net result? Bars are at the exact same height. Only now I'm slower because I don't look as poseurific :rolleyes:

Probably slower because of the increased frontal area of your stem ;)

I have had two fittings. The first one when I purchased my new bike and it was performed by a Specialized Rep and included everything from the shoes on up. The second was from Jay Gump at Incline Training who uses both video and computer modeling. Jay's was more of an eyeball look but he had no issue with the stem. He is seeing more stems up now days and believes that you can get increased power from the position. I posted the following pic and the number one response was that I should flip the stem. One poster even told me that neither I or the sales person that sold me the bike knew anything about properly fitting a racing bike.

All I know is I have no pain issues or fatigue issues with the current fit. :)


http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p230/gregogarrison/TarmacwithSRM.jpg

I have had two fittings. The first one when I purchased my new bike and it was performed by a Specialized Rep and included everything from the shoes on up. The second was from Jay Gump at Incline Training who uses both video and computer modeling. Jay's was more of an eyeball look but he had no issue with the stem. He is seeing more stems up now days and believes that you can get increased power from the position. I posted the following pic and the number one response was that I should flip the stem. One poster even told me that neither I or the sales person that sold me the bike knew anything about properly fitting a racing bike.
All I know is I have no pain issues or fatigue issues with the current fit. :)

Generally he's right...we had a guy pick up 5 watts just because we got him to relax his grip on the bars and bend his elbows.

Fit advice off a photo.

I am still laughing.

We like the guys that never get results coming in to get fit, walking out with a bike that looks like yours and suddenly they are up front and powerful.

Nothing on this forum makes me laugh harder than some of the fit advice that's given.

Part of the problem is that so few US racers come from structured clubs with coaches and people to work with the bikes. They just don't know any better so they get a picture and try to match it.

If it looks cool it must be fast.

Wrong.

Generally he's right...we had a guy pick up 5 watts just because we got him to relax his grip on the bars and bend his elbows.


I find "Relax and breathe... Relax and breathe..." makes a huge difference on any long ride. It's amazing how much energy I was wasting with clenched jaw and shoulders and furrowed brow.

Just open the mouth, relax the muscles, and breathe breathe breathe... and it all gets just a little easier.

I've got a huge saddle to bar drop but I also have scars on my knuckles from dragging them on ground when I walk :D

I have always felt more comfortable on a slightly smaller frame with lots of drop.

Also I find it much more comfortable to have a larger drop when climbing though by some comments that is typically not the case for most I guess?

Typically in the winter I set my bike up more upright with a shorter flipped up stem. When I flip it back down I can feel less wind and more aerodynamic and I never felt as though I lost any power. IMHO (and I know some will disagree and perhaps they are right but) I don't think bike fit is rocket science and quite frankly for most people I think it's over rated. The best bike fitter is your self (as long as you are not an idiot or hung up on the 'look' of your bike). It takes some time and experimentation but eventually you can dial in your own personal fit. A fit is a good starting point but you will need your own intuition and experimentation to dial it in. Most books or on line resources can provide you with the basics.