Read about it here. (http://www.upi.com/Energy/Briefing/2007/04/05/ethanol_demand_spikes_egg_prices/) I've also read that milk is starting to go way up in price, and meat and farm-raised fish will soon follow.

If the government stopped subsidizing ethanol, the price of food would decline pretty quickly again, and ethanol would recede into the obscurity it so richly deserves. Corn-based ethanol is the silliest energy idea I've ever heard about. It still puts CO2 into the atmosphere (though at a somewhat more modest rate than fossil fuels), it takes away from food production, as the article demonstrates, and, worst of all, it's insanely inefficient. A gallon of gasoline produces 30-200 BTUs for every BTU needed to produce it, depending on where you drill for the oil. A gallon of corn-based ethanol, on the other hand, produces 1.34 BTUs for every BTU needed to produce it. Without the subsidies, no one in their right mind would even be thinking of corn-based ethanol. This is just another example of the executive branch of the US government benefitting its friends by robbing the rest of us.

Corn-based ethanol is the silliest energy idea I've ever heard about.
Second silliest. Gasoline is still the silliest. :D

If staple food items double, or even triple in price they would still be a good deal at a very acceptable price to me. A dozen eggs for $2.27, a loaf of white bread for $1.77, 10 lbs potatoes for $7.50, My CSA Share to $300, 20 lbs rice for $12? So what. Maybe I can't buy any more Frosted Super Marshmallow cereal or Pop-Tarts or greasy ass potatoe chip or any of the other crap people buy.

While I don't think Ethanol is a great idea, I'm all in favor of it if farmers can make a more reasonable wage, we can reduce our trade balance, and help our environment ever so slightly. Seems like a win/win to me. I'm sure those subsidies are way less than oil subsidies.

Maybe the food producers will stop putting High Fructose Corn Syrup in everything now.

Second silliest. Gasoline is still the silliest. :D
+1. Take care of the big problem as well as the second biggest...

Yup, ABC News had a report on this evenings broadcast. Grain farmers are happy - everybody else less so. The report did say that this is just the beginning. With all the ethanol refineries that are expected to come online this year they predict that over 1/3 of the US corn supply will be diverted next year.

Corn-based ethanol is the silliest energy idea I've ever heard about, it takes away from food production.

It isn't taking food out of Americans' mouths. And it isn't any countries responsibility to feed other countries populations. If a country can't feed itself, it has way too many people. This is why the world has a massive over-population problem. Transporting food to artificially support inflated populations elsewhere.

It isn't taking food out of Americans' mouths. And it isn't any countries responsibility to feed other countries populations. If a country can't feed itself, it has way too many people. This is why the world has a massive over-population problem. Transporting food to artificially support inflated populations elsewhere.

Perhaps we should stop exporting food to Ethiopia and "decrease the surplus population..."

Anyone else been reading in the news about the honeybees vanishing all of a sudden? It started about November of last year. Supposedly up to 70% of the bees gone in some states. When they open up the hives all the worker bees are missing. Disappeared, not dead. No one knows the cause. Suspicions include genetically engineered corn and cotton but the current attitude of investigators is, it can't possibly be that.

If staple food items double, or even triple in price they would still be a good deal at a very acceptable price to me. A dozen eggs for $2.27, a loaf of white bread for $1.77, 10 lbs potatoes for $7.50, My CSA Share to $300, 20 lbs rice for $12? So what. Maybe I can't buy any more Frosted Super Marshmallow cereal or Pop-Tarts or greasy ass potatoe chip or any of the other crap people buy.

Spoken like a single male. You might think differently if you had a couple kids to feed, and not very much time to prepare meals because you're working overtime to feed them.

While I don't think Ethanol is a great idea, I'm all in favor of it if farmers can make a more reasonable wage, we can reduce our trade balance, and help our environment ever so slightly. Seems like a win/win to me. I'm sure those subsidies are way less than oil subsidies.
What gets me mad is the form of this particular subsidy. For one thing, you're making my fuel (food) more expensive in order to make your fuel cheaper (ethanol for your stinking car).

Sorry, but I don't "swallow" that argument. If you insist on driving a totally outmoded automobile, do it with your own money, not mine! :mad:

It isn't taking food out of Americans' mouths. And it isn't any countries responsibility to feed other countries populations. If a country can't feed itself, it has way too many people. This is why the world has a massive over-population problem. Transporting food to artificially support inflated populations elsewhere.
How is diverting one-third of our largest food crop to fuel NOT taking food out of American's mouths? It's high school economics, not really that hard to figure out.

It isn't taking food out of Americans' mouths. And it isn't any countries responsibility to feed other countries populations. If a country can't feed itself, it has way too many people. This is why the world has a massive over-population problem. Transporting food to artificially support inflated populations elsewhere.

I have 2 responses to your post:

1. It is, in fact, taking food out of Americans' mouths, in a very literal sense. If you divert 1/3 of the corn crop to ethanol production, the price of the remaining corn is going to be bid upwards. Every kind of food that requires any corn, including almost all animal products, is going to get significantly more expensive.

2. What do you suggest be done about the already-existing "inflated populations elsewhere"?

What gets me mad is the form of this particular subsidy. For one thing, you're making my fuel (food) more expensive in order to make your fuel cheaper (ethanol for your stinking car).

Sorry, but I don't "swallow" that argument. If you insist on driving a totally outmoded automobile, do it with your own money, not mine! :mad:

I'll say I don't think these subsidies are a good idea, but the other alternative is oil subsidies, which do you prefer? Farmers in the Mid-west or War in the Mid-east? Seems like a pretty simple choice.

By the way, I average 1500-1800 miles car driving per year, at least 98% with more than one passenger.

Not only is it affecting corn based products, but land that was being used to grow other food crops is being diverted to corn for ETOH production. IE; wheat, barley and oats. And I am sure there are others. FWIW they could get a helluva lot more ETOH from different things besides corn. It is all a political boondoggle and nothing more.

Aaron:)

I have 2 responses to your post:

1. It is, in fact, taking food out of Americans' mouths, in a very literal sense. If you divert 1/3 of the corn crop to ethanol production, the price of the remaining corn is going to be bid upwards. Every kind of food that requires any corn, including almost all animal products, is going to get significantly more expensive.

2. What do you suggest be done about the already-existing "inflated populations elsewhere"?
I kinda wish you hadn't asked that second question. The answers are often pretty scary, with all kind of "final solution" overtones. (I hope that isn't the case here! Most of us are pretty enlightened and compassionate people.)

Clearly however, the thoughts of Bush and other ethanol proponents are not with the billions of people in the world who barely have enough food to eat already. The sad thing is, we are finally making a little progress on feeding people better. This has taken several decades, and now along comes ethanol with its potential to wipe out these gains in just a year or two.

How is diverting one-third of our largest food crop to fuel NOT taking food out of American's mouths? It's high school economics, not really that hard to figure out.

You are aware we aren't talking about sweet corn and corn on the cob here right? We're talking about fodder for chickens, pigs, and cows. If you wanted to make a difference encourage people to eat veggies, fruits and grains. I here this figure about 1 unit of energy produces 1.36 units of ethanol energy, but how many units of corn energy produce one unit of meat/poultry energy?

"Animals fed on grain, and those that rely on grazing need far more water than grain crops.[47] According to the USDA, growing the crops necessary to feed farmed animals requires nearly half of the United States' water supply and 80% of its agricultural land. Additionally, animals raised for food in the U.S. consume 90% of the soy crop, 80% of the corn crop, and a total of 70% of its grain.[48] In tracking food animal production from the feed trough to the dinner table, the inefficiencies of meat, milk and egg production range from 4:1 energy input to protein output ratio up to 54:1"

Not only is it affecting corn based products, but land that was being used to grow other food crops is being diverted to corn for ETOH production. IE; wheat, barley and oats. And I am sure there are others. FWIW they could get a helluva lot more ETOH from different things besides corn. It is all a political boondoggle and nothing more.

Aaron:)

I agree ethanol (what does ETOH mean?) isn't a solution, however it is much better than importing billions of gallons of oil and fighting wars to obtain it. Political boondoggle it is.

Hopefully this drives the value of land for farming up and out of the reach of housing developers. Would you guys rather see more suburbia or more acres of corn and slightly higher food prices?

You are aware we aren't talking about sweet corn and corn on the cob here right? We're talking about fodder for chickens, pigs, and cows. If you wanted to make a difference encourage people to eat veggies, fruits and grains. I here this figure about 1 unit of energy produces 1.36 units of ethanol energy, but how many units of corn energy produce one unit of meat/poultry energy?

"Animals fed on grain, and those that rely on grazing need far more water than grain crops.[47] According to the USDA, growing the crops necessary to feed farmed animals requires nearly half of the United States' water supply and 80% of its agricultural land. Additionally, animals raised for food in the U.S. consume 90% of the soy crop, 80% of the corn crop, and a total of 70% of its grain.[48] In tracking food animal production from the feed trough to the dinner table, the inefficiencies of meat, milk and egg production range from 4:1 energy input to protein output ratio up to 54:1"

I suspect that since most people don't know this, distributors (not farmers) can jack up the price of corn based food, and most people won't be the wiser. In fact, I'm pretty sure they do this sort of thing all the time.

I guess Fidel Castro was right (http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=282619)...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17850102/

It isn't taking food out of Americans' mouths. And it isn't any countries responsibility to feed other countries populations. If a country can't feed itself, it has way too many people. This is why the world has a massive over-population problem. Transporting food to artificially support inflated populations elsewhere.
There are some who claim that the disasters (drought, war, etc) may have a basis in climate change (of which some claim the US is the major contributor). Take the case of Lake Chad which has been drying up for many years and has left inhabitants scrambling for arable land.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4906692.stm
It's often easy to assume over-population.

I agree ethanol (what does ETOH mean?) isn't a solution, however it is much better than importing billions of gallons of oil and fighting wars to obtain it. Political boondoggle it is.

Hopefully this drives the value of land for farming up and out of the reach of housing developers. Would you guys rather see more suburbia or more acres of corn and slightly higher food prices?

Short form of Ethanol, it really should be EtOH. On a personal side I would like to see more organic farms vs regular farms vs housing developments:D

Aaron:)

One good side effect of rising food prices is that some people may resort to growing things in their backyards. Also, it will make local, organic farming operations much more viable. I see this as the "silver lining" in this cloud.

One good side effect of rising food prices is that some people may resort to growing things in their backyards. Also, it will make local, organic farming operations much more viable. I see this as the "silver lining" in this cloud.

And it might just might cut down on the amount of processed junk food that people eat....nah that would be too much to hope for...

Aaron:)

If the government stopped subsidizing ethanol, the price of food would decline pretty quickly again, and ethanol would recede into the obscurity it so richly deserves. Corn-based ethanol is the silliest energy idea I've ever heard about.


You think they don't know this? Does it not strike you the least bit "odd" that this "solution" to oil is being championed by someone who owned an oil company and owns stock in oil?

Anyone else been reading in the news about the honeybees vanishing all of a sudden? It started about November of last year. Supposedly up to 70% of the bees gone in some states. When they open up the hives all the worker bees are missing. Disappeared, not dead. No one knows the cause. Suspicions include genetically engineered corn and cotton but the current attitude of investigators is, it can't possibly be that.

Off topic, but yes, I've been following this developing story with keen interest. Very frightening given that something close to 1/3 of our produce is tied to the efforts of these little fellows. IMO, when all the research comes in, it will be found that a combination of pesticides resulted in this mass devastation of the bee colonies. Most recently I've heard reports of the same is coming in from countries around the globe--but I haven't verified this from independent sources.

It is, in fact, taking food out of Americans' mouths, in a very literal sense.

No one in America goes hungry for a lack of food. Americans who go hungry do so for lack of money.

No one in America goes hungry for a lack of food. Americans who go hungry do so for lack of money.

- and/or lack of willingness to stay in school, learn, and apply a work ethic - novel concept, eh?

- that problem won't be solved until the State provides equally for all, comrade!

- back OT:

wait until Tysons and Perdue switch to less expensive fish-based chicken feed... we'll then all get the Euro KFC experience! (interesting taste - rather 'fowl' IMHO)

that problem won't be solved until the State provides equally for all, comrade!

:rolleyes:

Perhaps we should stop exporting food to Ethiopia and "decrease the surplus population..."

Dickens "A Christmas Carol".. one of my favorite Social Activists.

Although I couldn't help feeling that Ebeneezer Scrooge wasn't all that wrong as far as finances went, he just needed a little more balance in his life...

No one in America goes hungry for a lack of food. Americans who go hungry do so for lack of money.

I suspect that's the case for nearly every person in the world.

Dickens "A Christmas Carol".. one of my favorite Social Activists.


Well done. You are a gentleman and a scholar.:)

I suspect that's the case for nearly every person in the world.


No, actually, in the countries in Africa where there are many starving, it's because the food shipments from organisations like the UN and or Feed the World are intercepted and forcefully taken by government or "gang" groups such as warlords or certain tribal leaders to increase their own power over segments of their population.

That's what I meant by my original statement when I said that Americans don't go hungry for lack of food, but for lack of money. I wasn't making a grandiose economic statement. I was making a supply statement.

Why is everybody ignoring my original question? Do you not think that cyclists who are carfree should be pissed off because we are subsidizing, through higher food prices, a scheme that is designed to benefit motorists with a continuing supply of cheap fuel?

Forget about the theoretical and theological arguments. Forget about whether ETOH is practical or sensible. Forget even about people starving in Ethiopia. We all should be outraged by what ETOH production is doing to us personally.

Unless of course you'd rather just bend over and try to enjoy those deep down sensations.

Why is everybody ignoring my original question? Do you not think that cyclists who are carfree should be pissed off because we are subsidizing, through higher food prices, a scheme that is designed to benefit motorists with a continuing supply of cheap fuel?

Forget about the theoretical and theological arguments. Forget about whether ETOH is practical or sensible. Forget even about people starving in Ethiopia. We all should be outraged by what ETOH production is doing to us personally.


No man is an island. We are the world. Still, you're right, it's personally irritating. And it's not just food for human consumption that's going to get more expensive. Ethanol for human consumption is going to get costlier too!

...We all should be outraged by what ETOH production is doing to us personally.
Ah yes, especially when it suddenly dawns on you that you are the "surplus population" someone else is talking about.

Why is everybody ignoring my original question? Do you not think that cyclists who are carfree should be pissed off because we are subsidizing, through higher food prices, a scheme that is designed to benefit motorists with a continuing supply of cheap fuel?

Forget about the theoretical and theological arguments. Forget about whether ETOH is practical or sensible. Forget even about people starving in Ethiopia. We all should be outraged by what ETOH production is doing to us personally.

Unless of course you'd rather just bend over and try to enjoy those deep down sensations.

good thread for P&R really

good thread for P&R really
No! This thread is directly relevant to carfree cycling. I doubt if you have read it very carefully if you don't think so. So I'll say it again, for the third time.

Carfree cyclists are directly subsidizing a scheme to make motoring cheaper as gas prices soar. Our fuel--food--is being diverted to fuel their cars. How much more relevant could we possibly be?

car free people subsidize all sorts of crap, car related or not........like foreign wars protecting oil supplies for example, making sure farmers make money is another, I can go on and on and on here..........

easy way out, grow own food and quit paying taxes

becoming car free is just a stepping stone, other sacrifices follow, you have like zero control over how your taxes are spent or what govt policy is, but it isnt hard to see where its headed and beat them to the punch and react quicker and make it a moot point

ya, its sucks that the driving masses do not care or wont care if food prices go up and those that dont make use of cars will pay too, but it isnt much different than any of the other things we pay for but dont use, life isnt fair

car free people subsidize all sorts of crap, car related or not........like foreign wars protecting oil supplies for example, making sure farmers make money is another, I can go on and on and on here..........

easy way out, grow own food and quit paying taxes

becoming car free is just a stepping stone, other sacrifices follow, you have like zero control over how your taxes are spent or what govt policy is, but it isnt hard to see where its headed and beat them to the punch and react quicker and make it a moot point

ya, its sucks that the driving masses do not care or wont care if food prices go up and those that dont make use of cars will pay too, but it isnt much different than any of the other things we pay for but dont use, life isnt fair
Yeah, life is unfair. The strong ones win the battle. The only strengths that normal people have are information and solidarity. Becoming a hermit and acting alone will not win the battles.

The decision to go with ethanol was not made during the type of enlightened public debate that democracy requires. It was made by a handful of special interest groups--agribusiness and the chemical/food conglomerates--who were out for their personal profit, and the hell with our people, our country or our planet. The decision to switch to ethanol has already been made. In one year, we are diverting one-third of our largest food crop to make fuel for cars. By next year, it will probably be one-half. And soon the soybean crop will follow, in order to make biodiesel.

Food prices will soar. I will pay more for my fuel as motorists pay less for theirs. Wilderness will be cleared to grow fuel crops. Poor people around the world will suffer more, maybe some will even starve. The climate will get warmer. A few people will get rich. A lot of people will get to drive cars. Life is unfair.....

Doom, gloom......are any of you happy at all? It is your life, do the damned best you can, and enjoy yourself. Life is a gift. Death is constant to me. I suffer from PTSD as a Paramedic. I have no feelings left other than pain, grief and emotional numbness.......
Get rid of your negative thoughts, be happy and happily influence those you can. Ok? Smile while you ride your bike, make others absorb your attitude. Smiling, while doing the right thing, is very powerful. Being a negative grump makes others discount your beliefs. Everyone needs and wants to be happy. Trust me....I am a negative SOB and I have no friends and no influence. Humanity can triumph, but I can't be a part of it.....negativity has taken my soul. Thoughts follow actions, not the other way around. Sorry, just telling it like I see it.

Doom, gloom......are any of you happy at all? It is your life, do the damned best you can, and enjoy yourself. Life is a gift. Death is constant to me. I suffer from PTSD as a Paramedic. I have no feelings left other than pain, grief and emotional numbness.......
Get rid of your negative thoughts, be happy and happily influence those you can. Ok? Smile while you ride your bike, make others absorb your attitude. Smiling, while doing the right thing, is very powerful. Being a negative grump makes others discount your beliefs. Everyone needs and wants to be happy. Trust me....I am a negative SOB and I have no friends and no influence. Humanity can triumph, but I can't be a part of it.....negativity has taken my soul. Thoughts follow actions, not the other way around. Sorry, just telling it like I see it.
treefire, your post is rather contradictory - telling others they are too negative and should just "be happy" and enjoy themselves, then stating that you can't. Hope you can overcome your own negativism and follow your own advice.

At the same time, someone like Roody pointing out that some government policies are harmful and unfair to people like him doesn't necessarily mean he is negative or unhappy...it means he recognizes a problem and wants to do something about it.

For Americans, I think paying a little bit more for food in order to decrease the dependence on foreign oil is a good trade.

The decision to go with ethanol was not made during the type of enlightened public debate that democracy requires. It was made by a handful of special interest groups--agribusiness and the chemical/food conglomerates--who were out for their personal profit, and the hell with our people, our country or our planet.

life is unfair.....

What decisions made by the Federal Government in the last 80 years were the result of "enlightened public debate"? If you don't have enough money to buy a politician his office, you have no say.

"treefire, your post is rather contradictory - telling others they are too negative and should just "be happy" and enjoy themselves, then stating that you can't. Hope you can overcome your own negativism and follow your own advice."

Thanks, I hope so too. I made the comment about everyone (in this thread), not just Roody. I read the whole thing and at the end was even more depressed. Just trying to spread some positivity to those who can feel. I am guilty of asking for people to be as happy as they can, because when it is taken away from you, you try to fight to prevent that from happening to others. Yes, contradictory......Peace to all.

I have 2 responses to your post:
2. What do you suggest be done about the already-existing "inflated populations elsewhere"?
Usually a population crash follows any sort of ecological step beyond the carrying capacity of a given area... Considering our current practices arent even sustainable for ourselves (USA) I guess the only argument is when it will happen.

I am guilty of asking for people to be as happy as they can, because when it is taken away from you, you try to fight to prevent that from happening to others. Yes, contradictory......Peace to all.
We appreciate the thought... I sometimes think many people are happiest when they are a little disgruntled.
Peace to you...

I'd like a job at an ethanol plant. To get a Camelback with a teflon liner and see how much product I could sneak past the evil Revenuers.

"treefire, your post is rather contradictory - telling others they are too negative and should just "be happy" and enjoy themselves, then stating that you can't. Hope you can overcome your own negativism and follow your own advice."

Thanks, I hope so too. I made the comment about everyone (in this thread), not just Roody. I read the whole thing and at the end was even more depressed. Just trying to spread some positivity to those who can feel. I am guilty of asking for people to be as happy as they can, because when it is taken away from you, you try to fight to prevent that from happening to others. Yes, contradictory......Peace to all.
Thanks for your concern, treefire. Actually I'm very happy with my personal life, and I'm really not a doomsayer. I'd say I'm a lot more optimistic than the average person.

But I'm pissed off because I recently realized that we carfree Americans just got hoodwinked again. Ethanol has been discussed for years, but now all of a sudden, it's a done deal. This will have enormous consequences for the world economy in the very near future. In fact, the consequences are already being seen in hte higher prices for eggs and milk.

Fifteen months ago, the president casually mentioned in his State of the Union address that we're "dependent on foreign oil," and we should start looking for alternatives, including ethanol. Everybody figured this was just a throwaway line, or an invitation to discuss alternative policies. But NOOOOO, for once he was actually giving away the plan. And a year later, it's a done deal, and everybody is shaking their heads and wondering, "What just happened?"

Obviously this did not really happen onernight. It must have been in the works for years. I have no doubt that it was discussed at Cheney's infamous "energy conference" shortly before 9/11. I'm not usually a conspiracy theorist, but this time I really have to wonder....

Why is everybody ignoring my original question? Do you not think that cyclists who are carfree should be pissed off because we are subsidizing, through higher food prices, a scheme that is designed to benefit motorists with a continuing supply of cheap fuel?


I did answer it. It's NOT designed to benefit motorists. Rather, it's designed to guarantee there are NO viable alternatives to expensive oil. They know it will fail but that it will placate the "buzz" for alternative fuels. So motorists are just as screwed by it as cyclists.