I find this hard to believe...

[N_C]

...but I guess according to their criteriea it is true. I wonder how my city ranked. Also why is they only do this on the larger cities? Why not the cities with less then 100,000 people?

BTW I grew up in Des Moines, my wife & I visit at least 5 times a year. The driving habits I see leave doubt in my mind that it is a safe place to drive.

http://www.bikeiowa.com/asp/hotnews/newsdisplay.asp?NewsID=2110

I love the reader comments & agree with a lot of them:

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070405/BUSINESS/70405011/1001/RSS01

It is interesting when a study like this is done it is done with a limited set of criteria. I wonder what the rating would be if they opened up the criteria to include cell phone use, collisions with cyclists, non-injury or non-fatal accidents, etc.

I'd bet it would rank amongst the lowest in the nation. Hmm a stacked manipulated ranking so they can get a high score & rating? Me thinks so.

[CyLowe97]

If you're freaked out by Des Moines drivers and traffic, you really need to get to an actual large city for a real rude awakening. Chicago's not a bad drive from there, so head east for some experience! Most folks around here haven't met a red light that they haven't run. And 55 mph on the toll/expressways means you better be haulin' at least 75mph or get run over.

It'll warp your sense of what's safe when safe does not equal following posted signs and speed limits and have you begging for Des Moines traffic.

[slowandsteady]

Why not the cities with less then 100,000 people?

Because those are called towns.....

[lima_bean]

If you're freaked out by Des Moines drivers and traffic, you really need to get to an actual large city for a real rude awakening. Chicago's not a bad drive from there, so head east for some experience! Most folks around here haven't met a red light that they haven't run. And 55 mph on the toll/expressways means you better be haulin' at least 75mph or get run over.

It'll warp your sense of what's safe when safe does not equal following posted signs and speed limits and have you begging for Des Moines traffic.


While chicago drivers dont follow the laws (I would estimate 0% stop at stop signs, and I see dozens of red light runners every day), its actually surprisingly good for cycling. I dont really get honked at, yelled at, or disrespected very much by cars at all, and once you learn the flow of the traffic, I dont really feel particularly in danger.

[CyLowe97]

While chicago drivers dont follow the laws (I would estimate 0% stop at stop signs, and I see dozens of red light runners every day), its actually surprisingly good for cycling. I dont really get honked at, yelled at, or disrespected very much by cars at all, and once you learn the flow of the traffic, I dont really feel particularly in danger.
I agree on that, having lived in the city itself for 5 years. I never felt more at home riding with cars as I did in Chicago. Possibly because it's easy to keep with the flow of traffic.

Now the 'burbs on the other hand....

[John E]

I agree on that, having lived in the city itself for 5 years. I never felt more at home riding with cars as I did in Chicago. Possibly because it's easy to keep with the flow of traffic.

Now the 'burbs on the other hand....

Yes, I believe relative speed is a big issue. I can much more comfortably ride vehicularly and integrate myself with the main traffic flow in downtown or residential areas with 25mph / 40kph speed limits than I can on 55mph prime arterials.

[N_C]

If my city was ranked amongst cities with less then 100,000, there is only 85,000 in Sioux City it would rank among the lowest. The reason is the amount of hispanic drivers we have here. I am not saying to be racist or a bigot. The fact of the matter is they learn to drive where they are from, Mexico or countries in South America, which is pretty lax when it comes to drivers ed., they move here & drive, whether legally or otherwise & are not used to the way we drive here there are a lot of accidents as a result. The immigrants can not afford insurance a lot of the time so this is part of the reason auto insurance rates are among the highest in Iowa & the nation per capita. I pay a lot more for my auto insurance then I ever did in Des Moines. I wish that along with classes immigrants have to take to gain citizenship came a driver's ed. class. It may make things a little safer & lower insurance rates.

[CyLowe97]

If my city was ranked amongst cities with less then 100,000, there is only 85,000 in Sioux City it would rank among the lowest. The reason is the amount of hispanic drivers we have here. I am not saying to be racist or a bigot. The fact of the matter is they learn to drive where they are from, Mexico or countries in South America, which is pretty lax when it comes to drivers ed., they move here & drive, whether legally or otherwise & are not used to the way we drive here there are a lot of accidents as a result. The immigrants can not afford insurance a lot of the time so this is part of the reason auto insurance rates are among the highest in Iowa & the nation per capita. I pay a lot more for my auto insurance then I ever did in Des Moines. I wish that along with classes immigrants have to take to gain citizenship came a driver's ed. class. It may make things a little safer & lower insurance rates.
That's got to be the dumbest, most ignorant thing I've ever read on these forums.

Ever.

[slowandsteady]

If my city was ranked amongst cities with less then 100,000, there is only 85,000 in Sioux City it would rank among the lowest. The reason is the amount of hispanic drivers we have here. I am not saying to be racist or a bigot. The fact of the matter is they learn to drive where they are from, Mexico or countries in South America, which is pretty lax when it comes to drivers ed., they move here & drive, whether legally or otherwise & are not used to the way we drive here there are a lot of accidents as a result. The immigrants can not afford insurance a lot of the time so this is part of the reason auto insurance rates are among the highest in Iowa & the nation per capita. I pay a lot more for my auto insurance then I ever did in Des Moines. I wish that along with classes immigrants have to take to gain citizenship came a driver's ed. class. It may make things a little safer & lower insurance rates.


Doesn't everyone have to take a test to get a driver's license regardless of ethnic origin? Doesn't everyone have to get insurance regardless of ethnic origin?

By the way, out of curiosity, what do you pay for insurance in a year? I just have to know if you pay more than I do in Jersey.

[mwrobe1]

While chicago drivers dont follow the laws (I would estimate 0% stop at stop signs, and I see dozens of red light runners every day), its actually surprisingly good for cycling. I dont really get honked at, yelled at, or disrespected very much by cars at all, and once you learn the flow of the traffic, I dont really feel particularly in danger.
+1 to all that. And for the record, I stop at all stop signs whilst in a car. ;)

And I might add...IMHO...the worst drivers in the US live in or around Atlanta.

Followed by:
Any urban area in Ohio. I mean seriously...why ARE there posted speed limits in Ohio?
Northern New Jersey.
Southern Florida.

[Keith99]

Any bets all the numbers are per licenced driver? Anyone see how this can skew the numbers. If in city A the average driver drives 100 miles per day and in city B they average 25 then (assuming that otherwise the criteria are good) if city B comes out being half as bad as city A, meaning half as many accidents/driver, they really have twice as many per mile.

And if you stop to think about it isn't problems per mile basically what we all mean when we think of how good or bad a driver is?

[slowandsteady]

That's got to be the dumbest, most ignorant thing I've ever read on these forums.

Ever.


+1
Par for the course with N_C

[crtreedude]

Yep - I agree - just because someone is from Latin America doesn't make them a bad driver. I live in Costa Rica (if you aren't looking at my avatar) so I should know. People are very nice here and observant for an old white haired bike commuter.

[caloso]

Some of us Hispanics learned to drive here in los EE.UU.

[N_C]

For the record I never said they are bad drivers because of their country of origin. I said the driving skills taught in these other countries compared to the U.S. seem to be pretty lax by comparison. They simply do not know how to drive on America's roadways when they move here because they are used to driving where they are from.

Case in point I have heard from quite a few trusted sources that in Mexico City people speed every where. To control this they installed speed bumps in the roadways. That did very little to control the problem. Now what happens is drivers speed as fast as they can to the speed bump, slow down, cross it, then speed to the next & so forth.

In Iowa if you want your license before you're 18 you have to take some sort of state approved drivers ed. Everyone has to take the written test. What determines if you have to take the driving test is dependant upon what your birth date is or if the instructor says you have to take the driving test. From the way teenagers drive they should all be required to take the test regardless. Iowa has what is called the Graduated Driver License. Starts out as a learners permit, then a license for between the age of 16 & 18, then an adult operator license. If a kid screws one little iota they can have their license suspended until they are 25. I love this new law. Because I hear about kids messing up all the time when driving & losing their license as a result. As far as I'm concerned keeping speeding teenagers who think they are 10' tall & bullet proof off the roadways is a good idea.

[caloso]

NC: I'm still having trouble getting past the implicit premise of your first post that hispanic = foreigner.

[edit: Sorry, your second and third posts.]

[wheel]

2006 Allstate America's Best Drivers report shows.

http://www.kctv5.com/Global/story.asp?S=4943813

[noisebeam]

Case in point I have heard from quite a few trusted sources that in Mexico City people speed every where.

Trusted sources? Impossible. There is no way that people living outside the USA speed. Only arrogant and lazy united states citizens speed - check the threads here (search: cager JAM speeding) for vast evidence.

To control this they installed speed bumps in the roadways. That did very little to control the problem. Now what happens is drivers speed as fast as they can to the speed bump, slow down, cross it, then speed to the next & so forth.
This I believe. Only in the USA with our fantastic driving ed. program and top notch police enforcement do folks stay below speed limits and know how to patiently control speed over a series of bumps. After all when living in a such a civilized place, one learns how to treat their car and its occupants with the care they deserve instead of zooming between bumps.

Al

[slowandsteady]

For the record I never said they are bad drivers because of their country of origin. I said the driving skills taught in these other countries compared to the U.S. seem to be pretty lax by comparison. They simply do not know how to drive on America's roadways when they move here because they are used to driving where they are from.

Case in point I have heard from quite a few trusted sources that in Mexico City people speed every where. To control this they installed speed bumps in the roadways. That did very little to control the problem. Now what happens is drivers speed as fast as they can to the speed bump, slow down, cross it, then speed to the next & so forth.

In Iowa if you want your license before you're 18 you have to take some sort of state approved drivers ed. Everyone has to take the written test. What determines if you have to take the driving test is dependant upon what your birth date is or if the instructor says you have to take the driving test. From the way teenagers drive they should all be required to take the test regardless. Iowa has what is called the Graduated Driver License. Starts out as a learners permit, then a license for between the age of 16 & 18, then an adult operator license. If a kid screws one little iota they can have their license suspended until they are 25. I love this new law. Because I hear about kids messing up all the time when driving & losing their license as a result. As far as I'm concerned keeping speeding teenagers who think they are 10' tall & bullet proof off the roadways is a good idea.


Only you could malign an entire ethnicity and feel justified. I am Polish and Italian. Got any pearls of wisdom to share about my ethnic background?

[wahoonc]

Doesn't everyone have to take a test to get a driver's license regardless of ethnic origin? Doesn't everyone have to get insurance regardless of ethnic origin?

By the way, out of curiosity, what do you pay for insurance in a year? I just have to know if you pay more than I do in Jersey.

BUT DO THEY??? In NC it is estimated that fully 1/4 of the drivers on the road are driving illegally, no license, suspended license, no insurance, improper registration, etc. When police stop Hispanic drivers or set up road blocks in areas that they frequent, they are accused of racial profiling and entrapment so the carnage continues. And no most of them can't drive worth a crap! North Carolina has approximately 600,000 Hispanic immigrants with an estimated 65% of those being illegal. That puts a potential 390,000 people on the road that may or may not have a valid license and all the other necessary things like proper insurance and licensing. FWIW our state population is around 8.6 million.

Aaron:)

[slowandsteady]

BUT DO THEY??? In NC it is estimated that fully 1/4 of the drivers on the road are driving illegally, no license, suspended license, no insurance, improper registration, etc. When police stop Hispanic drivers or set up road blocks in areas that they frequent, they are accused of racial profiling and entrapment so the carnage continues. And no most of them can't drive worth a crap! North Carolina has approximately 600,000 Hispanic immigrants with an estimated 65% of those being illegal. That puts a potential 390,000 people on the road that may or may not have a valid license and all the other necessary things like proper insurance and licensing. FWIW our state population is around 8.6 million.

Aaron:)


If these 390,000 people are driving as poorly as you say, I am sure they will be apprehended in no time at all. In NC, DWI while an illegal immigrant is a deportable offense.


And despite the racist rhetoric, I am still more concerned with deer causing accidents than anything else.

http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/deer-accident-statistics.html

[noisebeam]

BUT DO THEY??? In NC it is estimated that fully 1/4 of the drivers on the road are driving illegally, no license, suspended license, no insurance, improper registration, etc. When police stop Hispanic drivers or set up road blocks in areas that they frequent, they are accused of racial profiling and entrapment so the carnage continues. And no most of them can't drive worth a crap! North Carolina has approximately 600,000 Hispanic immigrants with an estimated 65% of those being illegal. That puts a potential 390,000 people on the road that may or may not have a valid license and all the other necessary things like proper insurance and licensing. FWIW our state population is around 8.6 million.

Aaron:)
By your figures of the 25% who are driving 'sub-standard', if one (for discussion sake) makes the rediculous assumption that 100% of hispanic immigrants fit this category, then only 7%-10% (about 1/3rd) of the 25% 'sub-standard' drivers could possibly be hispanic immigrant.

If targeted enforcement should be in place, stats would suggest to get the bulk of this 25% of 'sub-standard' drivers, then non-hispanic drivers should be targeted.

Anyway, shouldn't enforcement of 'active' traffic laws catch all those who don't know how to drive safely?

Al

[slowandsteady]

By your figures of the 25% who are driving 'sub-standard', if one (for discussion sake) makes the rediculous assumption that 100% of hispanic immigrants fit this category, then only 7%-10% (about 1/3rd) of the 25% 'sub-standard' drivers could possibly be hispanic immigrant.

If targeted enforcement should be in place, stats would suggest to get the bulk of this 25% of 'sub-standard' drivers, then non-hispanic drivers should be targeted.

Anyway, shouldn't enforcement of 'active' traffic laws catch all those who don't know how to drive safely?

Al


Stop it! Stop it! You will just confuse him with rational thinking and facts. ;)

[wahoonc]

I did not say that ALL immigrants drove like crap, but the number that are stopped are a higher percentage of all stopped drivers than they are by population percentage and the minute that happens it is racial profiling according to the ACLU and their Immigrant equivalent.If they can even figure out the guy is illegal they still don't get deported, they just go buy a new bogus license. We have case after case of a hispanics, quite often illegal, causing a death by motor vehicle and low and behold he is driving on a false license or has multiple offenses in another state or has been deported more than once. Unfortunately ICE has it's hands full and can't or won't deal with what they consider to be a local problem. We also have major components of the MS-13 gang in our area with all of the associated problems. Some areas of the state like Charlotte have trained local officers and gotten federal goverment approval to detain and deport illegals. In general local authorities can only call ICE and hope they pick them up prior to their making bail and disappearing only to be picked up again doing the same thing, again and again. I realize that the Latin culture is different from the American culture, but you are in America play by the friggin' rules. If an American was to get caught running over someone in Mexico while drunk driving you can bet they would be locked up and there wouldn't be any bleeding hearts crying for his release. Yes it is a very real problem and our collective governments are powerless at this point to stop it.

Aaron:)

[slowandsteady]

I did not say that ALL immigrants drove like crap, but the number that are stopped are a higher percentage of all stopped drivers than they are by population percentage and the minute that happens it is racial profiling according to the ACLU and their Immigrant equivalent.If they can even figure out the guy is illegal they still don't get deported, they just go buy a new bogus license. We have case after case of a hispanics, quite often illegal, causing a death by motor vehicle and low and behold he is driving on a false license or has multiple offenses in another state or has been deported more than once. Unfortunately ICE has it's hands full and can't or won't deal with what they consider to be a local problem. We also have major components of the MS-13 gang in our area with all of the associated problems. Some areas of the state like Charlotte have trained local officers and gotten federal goverment approval to detain and deport illegals. In general local authorities can only call ICE and hope they pick them up prior to their making bail and disappearing only to be picked up again doing the same thing, again and again. I realize that the Latin culture is different from the American culture, but you are in America play by the friggin' rules. If an American was to get caught running over someone in Mexico while drunk driving you can bet they would be locked up and there wouldn't be any bleeding hearts crying for his release. Yes it is a very real problem and our collective governments are powerless at this point to stop it.

Aaron:)

Seriously, deer are a much bigger problem. But, I guess no one likes using Bambi as a scapegoat.

[caloso]

I take it then that when the average Iowa or Carolina gabacho sees a brown-skinned driver, his first reaction is "illegal immigrant"? I'm just curious here. Because that's certainly inference I'm drawing.

[slowandsteady]

I take it then that when the average Iowa or Carolina gabacho sees a brown-skinned driver, his first reaction is "illegal immigrant"? I'm just curious here. Because that's certainly inference I'm drawing.


I will make sure I don't get a tan before driving through one of those states. ;)

[wahoonc]

I take it then that when the average Iowa or Carolina gabacho sees a brown-skinned driver, his first reaction is "illegal immigrant"? I'm just curious here. Because that's certainly inference I'm drawing.

Absolutely we are tired of being overrun by them, lock 'em all up...No but they are a definite factor in the number of accidents caused by uninsured and illegal drivers. I about got hit head on by a car full of "brown-skinned drivers" yesterday, they were ILLEGALLY passing a large truck in a no passing zone on a curve. I had to go on the shoulder to keep from hitting them. BTW the car did not have a legal license plate on it.

Aaron:)

[slowandsteady]

Absolutely we are tired of being overrun by them, lock 'em all up...No but they are a definite factor in the number of accidents caused by uninsured and illegal drivers. I about got hit head on by a car full of "brown-skinned drivers" yesterday, they were ILLEGALLY passing a large truck in a no passing zone on a curve. I had to go on the shoulder to keep from hitting them. BTW the car did not have a legal license plate on it.

Aaron:)


And I guess people of other ethnic backgrounds never do this.

How about you lock people up on the basis of their actions not their ethnic origin or the color of their skin? Is this too radical a concept for you?

[EnigManiac]

Seriously, deer are a much bigger problem. But, I guess no one likes using Bambi as a scapegoat.

Not unless Bambi is a foreign deer and snuck into the country illegally.

But seriously, this is one of the most offensive, silly and inane discussions I've seen recently. It seems some think they have a license to declare their prejudice and bias. I wonder where one earns that license. :rolleyes:

I live and ride in a city renowned as one of---if not the most---culturally diverse cities in the world and all I can say is I have never noticed one particular, recognizable segment of my society being overly represented as poor drivers. Bad drivers have no colour. They are all colours. And they are both men and women. To make such racial distinctions reveals more about the person saying such poorly-informed, unverified and blatantly bigoted remarks than it does about the ethnic community they are trying to malign.

[caloso]

Immigrants boost pay, not prison populations, new studies show. LA Times, Feb. 28, 2007. (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-me-immigstudy28feb28,0,30276.story?coll=la-home-headlines)

[wahoonc]

And I guess people of other ethnic backgrounds never do this.

How about you lock people up on the basis of their actions not their ethnic origin or the color of their skin? Is this too radical a concept for you?

Absolutely not, can't lock them up the friggin' ACLU keeps getting them out because we are infringing on their freedom and rights. HELLLOOO the last time I looked illegals aliens are just that illegal, they are breaking the laws of the land and other than basic human rights they aren't protected.

Sorry but I have little faith in the justice systems in this country anymore. They are run by crooked politicians who for the most part are in it for personal gain. It isn't whether you are guilty or innocent it is who you know or who screams "injustice" the loudest or plays the race card the quickest. Just for fun read up on the Duke Rape case...welcome to Justice in NC.

Aaron:)