General Cycling Discussion - Dilemma: Do I help pay for this?

Last weekend on a mountain bike ride I traded bikes with my friend so I can test out a bigger suspension bike. He was happy to ride my cross country bike because we were riding up some grueling hills.

After the ride, we noticed that the seatpost on my friend's Specialized Enduro that I was riding had slid down and hit the rear shock. We didn't think much of it, but friday when we went on another ride his shock completely failed. He took it to the shop, and they said it was from the seatpost hitting it, and that he has to either get a new one or get it fully re-built.

I'm aware that the seatpost issue on the Enduros is a design flaw, and this year they have tried to fix it. Also, the shock was having some issues leaking air and squeaking before I ever rode it. So my question is:

Is it my responsibility to replace the shock for him, since I was riding it when the seatpost hit the shock? What I have done is looked on e-bay, and found some similar shocks for good deals, and told him I feel like I should either split the cost or pitch in $100. Is this enough or too generous considering the details?

You break it, you buy it... how good of a friend are we talking? Heh, I've had similar experiences... I think and 50/50 is good, I mean they get a new part, and that way it sucks for both of you... and really... parts are replaced so often on mountain bikes... so it's not soo bad... a shock though can be costly!

Joe

I agree, you contributed to its' demise and should therefore be responsible, at least in part. 50/50 sounds fair to me.

The question I have is, "Did you adjust the seatpost height when you rode it?" If so, then it's really your fault and 50/50 is more than fair for you!". However, if all you did was throw a leg over the bike, then more responsibility is on your friend. How much, I dunno, but more.

L8R

You don't pay anything since he let you ride the bike and he was riding yours. It was his responsibility to look forward and make sure the seatpost was adjusted. You didn't break it intentionally.

What if he knew of the shock starting to fail and arranged you to ride it right before? Would you still pay for HIS part??? :)

Originally posted by Inoplanetyanin
What if he knew of the shock starting to fail and arranged you to ride it right before? Would you still pay for HIS part??? :)

Ummm... I doubt this is the case.

As for other questions-- yes, he is a very good friend, and we ride together once or twice a week. And infact I did adjust the seat before we rode, which is really weighing on my conscience. I guess what that is telling me is I indeed need to pitch in at least half the cost. I can't justify paying for all of it as it was leaking and squeaking pretty badly before I rode it. While I rode it I didn't notice it sqeaking, but I am about 25 lbs lighter than he is.

I'm coming to the conclusion that what I need to do is whatever it takes to make my conscience feel at ease.

So, I was looking on e-bay, and need to know something: would a fox vanilla rl work on the Enduro? There's some good deals on coil shocks, but haven't seen too many on air shocks....

If it's a good friend.. what's $100? That way you feel better knowing you did the right thing.

Joe

I don't understand the problem.
Especially if you consider him your friend, why should you worry about paying him for something that happened without your fault. He is heavier than you, mean it would break next ride under his weight, so HE should pay you for avoiding worse scenario.
Besides, what are you trying to get from the quote? Peoples opinions for its own sake or you really want to decide for yourself?

If you feel like you want to help him and pay - go on, it's your money.

I don't see a problem here...

http://www.ohiocitizen.org/moneypolitics/problem.jpg

Originally posted by gonesh9
Is it my responsibility to replace the shock for him, since I was riding it when the seatpost hit the shock? What I have done is looked on e-bay, and found some similar shocks for good deals, and told him I feel like I should either split the cost or pitch in $100. Is this enough or too generous considering the details?
I respect your efforts to make the situation right with your friend.
I cannot comment on whether you are being too generous or not, that's really your call.

It might be best to simply bite the bullet and follow through with your promise, regardless of whether it's too generous or not. That way, he'll respect your word, and that's more important than
anything else.

Example.
Customer brings a car to Jiffy lube for an oil change.
When mechanic pulls the car inside, engine blows up. Do you think Jiffy lube will be paying for a new engine just because it happened when one of their mechanics was behind the steering wheel???

Same analogy........

told him I feel like I should either split the cost or pitch in $100.

What does he "feel"?

I have had bikes broken in way or another by others a few times. I did not expect/let them to pay anything, even if they offered. I once had to have two wheels rebuilt and get a new seat. If I were that worried about something going wrong I would not lend things out.

If you were riding together and there were no issues at the time of the ride, I think it would fall under a regular use breakdown. Hell, it could have been on its way to being broken before you even got on it.

Since you offerd to pay, I would. But, call me what you will, but after he accepts the cash I would not consider him as close of a friend as I thought.

Hope this helps,

ehenz

Originally posted by Inoplanetyanin
Example.
Customer brings a car to Jiffy lube for an oil change.
When mechanic pulls the car inside, engine blows up. Do you think Jiffy lube will be paying for a new engine just because it happened when one of their mechanics was behind the steering wheel???

Same analogy........

Thank god you aren't my friend. It is a respect thing.

It is partially his fault and even if the shock was in the process of dying he may have helped move the death of that shock forward. Sorry but 50/50 is the minimum I would pay a friend. Crap I would evn offer to help someone I don't know if it happened to me.

Ehenz does have a point though. Because it could have been on its way out. He should refuse the 50/50 deal.

If it was my friend I'd offer to pay.

If my friend accepted my offer I'd start wondering about the value of the friendship.

We'll see how this turns out. I told him I'd at least pay half, and I have been searching for deals on new and used shocks. He seems very appreciative that I'm wanting to help out. My bet is that when it comes down to it he'll tell me to put my portion towards some disc brakes for my rig instead, and maybe help him out with installing insulation on his house or something. If he did accept my 1/2 portion, though, I wouldn't hold it against him.

I don't see any moral obligation on your part to pay anything. Different story if he had lent you the bike and something broke while you were riding, that would = 100% liability for you. When you're trading and riding together with no abuse on your part, I'd say 0% for you.
The other issue is financial - If you've got lots more cash than your friend, no problem helping him out - them that has, pays!

Ask yourself how you'd feel if it was your bike that broke while you were swapping. Would you expect him to pay?

Originally posted by MediaCreations
Ask yourself how you'd feel if it was your bike that broke while you were swapping. Would you expect him to pay?

Probably the best way to look at the situation:)

Originally posted by Maelstrom
Thank god you aren't my friend. It is a respect thing.


:rolleyes: What's the point?
________________________
You are glad that I am not your friend because you would expect me to pay if something on your bike breakes under me?

Well, I wouldn't ride your bike in the first place...

;)
With this kind of approach, you might want to go to insurance company and make someone sign a paper before rides, just like SHOPS do, or auto sales, which take your license. Do you call them your friends? :) :lol:

Originally posted by Rich Clark
If it was my friend I'd offer to pay.

If my friend accepted my offer I'd start wondering about the value of the friendship.

That's right...

I try to look at it from a different angle. If it were my bike, I wouldn't expect any help paying for the repair. If it were my friends, I would expect them to offer to pay and actually feel guilty when I refused. So my solution would be to take the actual material out of the picture. This isn't a case of liability as much as it's a case of making everyone feel okay. I would tell my friend to not worry about the shock but if he/she picked up a nice dinner that'd be great. This way the social obligations are met on more than one level.

gonesh9, I don't think you should have to pay, I feel when he let you ride his bike, he was taking a chance, something broke, but it wasn't your fault, the same as if he had broke something on your bike, you lent it to him so you should have to pay for the damage, unless it was ridden in such a way that riding it in that fashion would have knowingly broken something.

Just follow your conscience. If you put out the offer and don't feel good each time you meet him then go ahead to pay and have the peace of mind. On the other hand if the amount is going to hurt you and made you have feel silly to pay for something which you think is of no fault of yours then find a way to put out the offer without hurting your relationship. So let your feeling decide for you.

Just pay me, and feel peace of mind :D:D
:beer:

Originally posted by gonesh9
And infact I did adjust the seat before we rode, which is really weighing on my conscience.

After reading this I would have to agree with a2psyklnut and say the 50/50 is more than fair for you. Even if the shock was in poor working order prior to the ride it ultimately failed due to the seat post coming in contact with it according to what a professional bike mechanic told you. This in my eyes would be your fault since you failed to make sure it was properly tightened. Although, if he is a good friend as you say, then he should understand that things like this can happen and just be happy that he has a good friend to help him split the cost. Hell, I lent a buddy my bike while at school to ride to class. He left it unlocked and it got stolen. All I got was a “sorry....”

A bike and its parts are replaceable, good friendships are not. Do what YOU feel will make things right.

Originally posted by mtbkanata
If it's a good friend.. what's $100? That way you feel better knowing you did the right thing.

Joe

Even if I didn't feel responsible, I would consider splitting the cost. Would he do the same for you down the road? It sounds like he would.

Heck, he is already offering you other options to make up for it. He probably senses that is weighing on your concious. Either way, I would find a way to help him out with it. Even if its a case of beer.:beer:

Same thing here, had a brand new bike few years ago, let a friend ride it, and because she put a chain around the hndlebar, the bike was stolen... :)

No problem :D

Friendship and money - don't mix.

This is proven by introducing money to monkey communities.
Monkeys were getting plastic tokens of different colors for their work, and behaivor. Different color tokens had different value. Blue one could buy a banan, red one several grapes, black one - could buy nothing.

Eventually, monkey were not interested in black ones, but would fight over other color tokens, even more, female monkeys would hang out more with those males, that had a possesion of more tokens in their corners...

Money can creat arguments even among monkeys, so friendship should be free of money responsibilities. :)

Originally posted by Inoplanetyanin
Friendship and money - don't mix.

This is proven by introducing money to monkey communities.
Monkeys were getting plastic tokens of different colors for their work, and behaivor. Different color tokens had different value. Blue one could buy a banan, red one several grapes, black one - could buy nothing.

Eventually, monkey were not interested in black ones, but would fight over other color tokens, even more, female monkeys would hang out more with those males, that had a possesion of more tokens in their corners...

Money can creat arguments even among monkeys, so friendship should be free of money responsibilities. :)

You've got to be joking. You take a study on monkeys to prove a point about humans?

As cute and intelligent as monkeys may be, they are not humans. We all have financial dealings with friends and those people who have problems with such interactions will usually have problems in other areas too.

Gonesh obviously has great integrity and wants to do the right thing for his friend. With that being his desire he is sure to keep his friends. If he was asking how to get out of paying up, he would not only be failing a financial challenge, he'd be failing a basic honesty and integrity challenge. Those sorts of people don't keep friends long even if money isn't involved.

Originally posted by Inoplanetyanin
Friendship and money - don't mix.

This is proven by introducing money to monkey communities.
Monkeys were getting plastic tokens of different colors for their work, and behaivor. Different color tokens had different value. Blue one could buy a banan, red one several grapes, black one - could buy nothing.

Eventually, monkey were not interested in black ones, but would fight over other color tokens, even more, female monkeys would hang out more with those males, that had a possesion of more tokens in their corners...

Money can creat arguments even among monkeys, so friendship should be free of money responsibilities. :)


By the way, can you post a link to this study? Where was it carried out and under what circumstances?

I don't want to disbelieve you but I know you sometimes make up stories to illustrate points you're trying to make.

This information is not from the internet, however I can clearly remember what book I read it from.
The books is called "A Great Adventure in Science" or perhaps "The Great Adventure... not sure in the first article. Anyways, it's an old book, published somewhere around 60s, 70s early 80s.

The story in the book was called "The pay day for primates".

Originally posted by Inoplanetyanin
The story in the book was called "The pay day for primates".

So was it a story or a scientific study?

Can you find the information and post the details?

If you are really interested, I can ask my friends to find that book. It's in another State..., but accessible.
Monkeys are just an example, tha point is, that as soon as there are THINGS to fight over, there WILL be argument. This is a different issue, not really related to the original subject of the post, so I don't think it really should be discussed in this thread. However, I am confident in the conclusion I made regarding this example and there is another one, with a similar theam. Men and Women. The relationships between them is entirely different untill they are aware of their sixual differences.
This is a claim from Indian Buddhist studies...

Originally posted by MediaCreations
So was it a story or a scientific study?

Can you find the information and post the details?

The whole book has approximately 13-20 different stories/sections. It is of a popular sciense class, so those stories are written by different authors and are NOT fiction, yet they are stories. Some are notes from Autobiographies, quotes and so on.
In my English vocabulary, I don't find another word that can be used to call different sections of the book, so that's why I chose a word - story.

Thanks Inoplanetyanin.

I checked it out on google and found an article.

It's very interesting reading.

Of course I still can't see that it applies here because it is talking about animals and we are talking about humans.

Yes, it's pretty intertaining.
I think here is the exact text:

Payday for Primates (http://www.amnh.org/naturalhistory/editors_pick/0300_pick.html)

Originally posted by Inoplanetyanin
:rolleyes: What's the point?
________________________
You are glad that I am not your friend because you would expect me to pay if something on your bike breakes under me?



Its respect. If you don't understand that simple concept my conversation with you is done. I wouldn't accept but knowing tht you aknowledge you may be at fault and are willing to be cool means a lot. Simple point. Difficult for people lacking the fundamentals of friendship respect to truly understand.

Originally posted by Maelstrom
Its respect. If you don't understand that simple concept my conversation with you is done.

The problem is, understanding is not something absolutely right or absolutely wrong. It appears that your understanding of respect is different to mine, that's all.

As a matter of fact in one od Buddhist phylosphycal studies, there is a saying: Discussions should be abondent as they only reflect personal views, and contribute nothing to inlightnment. Part of it has a good point.
Anyhow, enjoy yourself. :D

Originally posted by gonesh9
We'll see how this turns out. I told him I'd at least pay half, and I have been searching for deals on new and used shocks. He seems very appreciative that I'm wanting to help out. My bet is that when it comes down to it he'll tell me to put my portion towards some disc brakes for my rig instead, and maybe help him out with installing insulation on his house or something. If he did accept my 1/2 portion, though, I wouldn't hold it against him.

It's obvious that you are a good friend - we all should be so lucky. http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/contrib/blackeye/stretch.gif
Anywho, if you don't mind, let us know how it turns out. Don't let it ruin your friendship though!!!!!!! http://www.smilies.okipages.com/s/kao/otn/pcheers3.gif

gonesh9, if it gives you peace, offer to pay for what you think you are responsible. Call it some sort of G-karmic love thing (oops sorry was wondering when I could jam that into a post), but if your friend won't accept your money, and you feel sorry for that as well, say it with beer... the universe will be re-aligned etc...

Scoob

Originally posted by Scooby Snax
say it with beer...


I like that! :p

Anyways, I'll keep y'all posted about how it turns out. Thanks for all the help with this dilemma.

If it's a good friend.. what's $100?

Hey, Joe... Will you be my friend? :D

Seriously, though...
If its a good friend, you probably wouldnt have a qualm about offering to pay 50% of the repair. If he's a good friend, he'll thank you and turn your offer down.

Without reading alot of posts because this thread got pretty far and seemingly off topic at the end a little, I dont think you should pay him. Why is it a specialized design flaw? From what you said, you were actually riding the bike with the seatpost hitting the shock? Its his fault because 1) He should have tightened the clamp more or got a new one to prevent the slippage, and 2) because specialized makes the "slug"....a little rubber piece that sticks to the shock to prevent shock damage. If you were riding the bike with the seatpost hitting the shock though.....I dont know what to say, you really should have been able to feel it. I would only pay if the guy is really mad.

I see two key facts here. Since you said the seat slipped down onto the shock, it is important to note that you adjusted the seat. Thus it is possible you didn't get it on tight enough, right? That would put some burden on you.

You also said the shock was also already having trouble so that puts some burden on the owner - at least to the point to realize it isn't worth full value. I'm assuming he already knew it was less than perfect.

I think it is fair to pay part - don't know the percentage, but 50% might be fine.

I certainly don't see anything wrong with him accepting such an offer either!

Bob

Well, just wanted to let y'all know how this all ended up....

After 2 weeks my friend's shock came back from Fox, and the LBS where he dropped it off said it was only $80. The shop guy seemed very surprised-- he told us how Fox's service is usually super-crappy, and usually this same process costs at least $160. Woo Hoo!

So, I told my friend I felt like I should pitch in for the cost, but he said no, don't worry about it, let's just go ride. After the ride I paid for the pitcher at the pub, and all was good.

Thanks, everyone, for the advice on this one.:)

gonesh9, nice to everything worked out allright for everyone involved.:beer:

> You don't get stronger by riding, you get stronger by resting <

Dang, then before I took up biking, I must have been the strongest guy in the world!!! (grin)

Bob