In the small town I live in (pop. 6,000) Walmart is currently trying to change a 20 acre parcel from Mixed Use to allow a 203,00sqf SuperCenter. The mixed use area is limited to 10,000sqf and intended for small local businesses. The zoning is written to allow walkable development. The township stated they want the type of place where a shopkeeper can have his store or gallery or service located on the main floor and residence on the upper floors.
Walmart appeared before the zoning board, opposition packed the place and the hallways and were standing around outside. The motion was rejected by the board 5-0. On Wednesday April 11th Walmart is going before the full township board to seek approval. The township had to rent a larger room at the Fairgrounds to hold the meeting.
I see people posting here all the time about walkable, liveable, bikeable cities. I'm hoping people on this board will e-mail the township supervisor with your opinions on this. They have stated all e-mails get delivered to all board members. supervisor@rutlandtownship.org
I found this post on-line, it's such a small town I can't find much other info for you: http://westmichiganpolitics.blogspot.com/
How many other small towns actually have a mixed use area? I'd like to hear what other's on this board think about big-boxes. This proposed site is just outside the city limits, and we all know how that helps make things easy to get to on a bike (yeah right).
This site (http://www.wakeupwalmart.com/community/current.html) may be of help to you.
manual_overide
04-10-07, 11:54 PM
or watch this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1509715597174925771&q=walmart&hl=en
EDIT: might be offensive to some people
deputyjones
04-11-07, 12:14 AM
Awesome to hear that the zoning board denied them with a unanimous vote! Glad to hear that some places in Western MI are fighting to keep their small communities.....well, communities!
Dahon.Steve
04-11-07, 05:37 AM
If your town builds that Walmart, you're downtown is basically finished. In fact, your town will basically be a Walmart city and very little else. The savings from Walmart come from not providing employees health care and not merchandising.
r8ingbull
04-11-07, 06:03 AM
Awesome to hear that the zoning board denied them with a unanimous vote! Glad to hear that some places in Western MI are fighting to keep their small communities.....well, communities!
What Part of Ottawa County are you in? Last I knew Grand Haven was in the middle of a Wal-mart struggle. Did that store get built? If so, can you think of any negative changes to downtown etc?
TimJ
04-11-07, 10:26 AM
Walmart's often get passed by town councils or whatever because they want the property tax revenue from the development. The thing is though you can't count on Walmart to stick around. I've been trying to recall the name of the city here in CA but I can't, but anyway they got approval for a store even though the residents of this town were largely opposed because the board wanted the tax revenue. But the city gave Walmart all kinds of tax consessions to build there (which is b.s. in the first place, it's just arm-twisting on behalf of Walmart). Mere months before the tax consessions were going to expire Walmart moved like 2 miles down the road into the borders of a different town, they were only in the original site for 2 or 3 years or something like that.
Oh wait, just did some better googling- it's Cathedral city. There's something about it in here:
http://www.goodjobsfirst.org/pdf/wmtstudy.pdf
Anyway, they do this all the time, apparently. Get in because they dangle tax revenue in front of city officials, meanwhile getting huge tax concessions for moving in for a number of years, and then when the concessions run out they move the store. So just from a fiscal standpoint, you can't trust Walmart.
And from a low-prices/jobs standpoint, the other carrots they dangle- more jobs and more stuff cuz it's cheaper- that's all b.s. too. Walmarts that are located in such a way as to dominate an area exert a downward pressure on wages which pretty much cancels out any "savings" they might bring to the consumer.
There's better stuff on this but I don't have the time right now: http://www.slate.com/id/2113954/
It's all b.s. and it's not hard to find the data you need to illustrate it.
One thing though- I doubt your board members will appreciate emails from people who live nowhere near your city. I don't think it's a good idea for you to encourage random people on the internet to contact your board members. A city official's job is to serve the people of the city, I think emails from elsewhere would have a negative impact.
deputyjones
04-11-07, 10:36 AM
What Part of Ottawa County are you in? Last I knew Grand Haven was in the middle of a Wal-mart struggle. Did that store get built? If so, can you think of any negative changes to downtown etc?
I live in Zeeland, and GH did get a Wal-Mart although it is brand new and the impact there yet to be seen and lessened by the fact that they have had a Meijer store there for 20-25 years. The downtown area has been really for tourists only since the Meijer went up. There are some services that GH citizen's use like banks, library, etc., but almost all of the retail is tourism based.
wahoonc
04-11-07, 11:09 AM
I can attest to the tax concession tactics of Walmart. The town I live near (Dunn, NC) gave up the bucks to get Walmart to locate there 6-7 years ago. They built their nice big store on a nice big lot. Then a few other stores went up on the out parcels. Time came for the tax incentives to run out they came back looking for a handout, city says no. They move 1 mile down the road into another town that gave them the tax breaks they were looking for, leaving behind a big empty shell building. And of course the stores on the out parcels moved too. What is really, really sad is the town they moved to used to have the largest Denim Plant in the world and at it's peak employed over 2,000 people. When it closed in 1999 the average rate of pay was around $15 and hour, now those jobs have been replaced by 470 jobs at Walmart with an average rate of pay around $7.50...
I agree with TimJ about unsolicited emails from out of town folks. However I think an email campaign from local folks with a very vocal support would be an excellent idea. I applaud your commission for sticking to their ethics and values. They are setting a good and strong example.
Aaron:)
r8ingbull
04-11-07, 11:14 AM
One thing though- I doubt your board members will appreciate emails from people who live nowhere near your city. I don't think it's a good idea for you to encourage random people on the internet to contact your board members. A city official's job is to serve the people of the city, I think emails from elsewhere would have a negative impact.
You could be right. However I would hope as long as e-mails remain civil and have some kind of reasoning that the board members would at least read them. If they get e-mails from all over the country with people talking about what kind of town they'd like to live in, maybe it would show that we don't all "need" Wal-mart? If people write about how mixed use residential is an attraction and Wal-mart isn't, maybe the will see the potential for growth in a different more unconventional way.
r8ingbull
04-11-07, 11:18 AM
I applaud your commission for sticking to their ethics and values. They are setting a good and strong example.
Aaron:)
I think if that type of statement is laid out in an e-mail it would have a positive effect. how many times do you think small township board members actually deal with an issue that someone in North Carolina (?) actually cares about as well?
Roody
04-11-07, 11:21 AM
Small towns ( and larger ones) in Michigan usually lose their battles against Walmart and Meijer's. Michigan has a long history of kowtowing to big companies on the state and local levels. I suggest massive fundraising in order to acquire the best legal help available in this fight. Also look for help from non-profit advocacy groups. They often have more expertise than local people can muster.
Also, it's likely that Walmart will start courting the surrounding townships to build their store there. When your town (Hastings) sees that the tax revenues will be going to a neighboring township, they are very likely to cave in and welcome Walmart with open arms.
Another consideration is that Meijer's usually tries to build a store wherever they think Walmart is likely to go. So watch out for that too.
Roody
04-11-07, 11:26 AM
I think if that type of statement is laid out in an e-mail it would have a positive effect. how many times do you think small township board members actually deal with an issue that someone in North Carolina (?) actually cares about as well?
I suspect that one E-mail from a local voter is worth 1,000 from out-of-towners. And personal visits and phone calls to board members are worth even more.
But it WILL go beyond this stage. Walmart has been through this thousands of times. It's daily routine for them as almost every store they open is opposed.
Reason for hope--Walmart did announce recently tha they're giving up on opening stores in Manhattan due to intense opposition over decades now. Thay also said they're going to slow down development in the other NYC boroughs, IIRC.
TimJ
04-11-07, 11:58 AM
You could be right. However I would hope as long as e-mails remain civil and have some kind of reasoning that the board members would at least read them. If they get e-mails from all over the country with people talking about what kind of town they'd like to live in, maybe it would show that we don't all "need" Wal-mart? If people write about how mixed use residential is an attraction and Wal-mart isn't, maybe the will see the potential for growth in a different more unconventional way.
That's what you're hoping they think but I seriously doubt any board member would think much beyond "this is from someone who doesn't live here and doesn't know the town, it's irrelevent". Frontline had a program about walmart and included footage from some council meetings in a smaller town here in CA and council members specifically stated they didn't want to hear from any activists or groups from outside the city. You don't know what people will write to them and you don't know how the people receiving it will react, one thing you can be sure of is the city council (or however it's structured) is there to serve the residents of your city so opinions and thoughts from some random person 1,000 miles away are irrelevant, no matter how reasonable. IMO it would be better to focus on data gathering that you can present to them yourself.
mostatebears
04-11-07, 02:24 PM
I may get bombed for this but I am a full time bike commuter and I shop at walmart. :o
I figure if I am going to save 5,000 a year on car expenses by biking I might as well save another couple thousand dollars a year on my groceries.
rajman
04-11-07, 03:02 PM
you could point out that traffic accidents are the leading cause of death in young people and young adults (likely injuries too)
Obesity is a leading cause of morbidity and death amongst older adults.
You could suggest that by rejecting wal-mart the local kids will be less likely to be killed in car accidents, and their parents will have a lower incidence of disease (living in an urban/walkable neighbourhood is correlated with 6.3 lbs lower average body weight). Because they will be living in a more walkable neighbourhood.
-=Łem in Pa=-
04-11-07, 03:07 PM
I actively faught WAL*MARTS in Pa.
I sat in rooms with thier lawyers.
WAL*MART is Satan, 666, The Omen, Freddy Krueger
Chucky, or whatever other ghastly entity might be the most
evil thing in your personal existance.
Pure, raw, unadulterated evil.
gerv
04-11-07, 07:12 PM
And if you don't think Walmart is covering its bets by trying to sidle up to possible future liberal-minded administrations, read this
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/04/02/070402fa_fact_goldberg/
deputyjones
04-11-07, 07:31 PM
Good luck Bull. If you need any help in the future with this feel free to email/PM me. I have web space available for a site if you need it and some rudimentary design skills. You are not that far away so I could come down if you needed bodies to fill a council room or hold a sign outside :D
jamesdenver
04-11-07, 08:11 PM
Best wishes. I've seen first hand how Grandville completely trashed the south end of town with Rivertown Crossings. (Kent County). They had an opportunity in the mid 90s to develop a bunch of fields into a walkable pedestrian friendly environment near a high school and homes, but instead were blinded by dollar signs while prefab buildings mushroomed up around a giant mall without any thought to traffic, pedestrians, or community.
Plenty of new retail pads or "lifestyle centers" are built with accessability in mind. They aren't perfect, and Saturdays they're still jammed with traffic, but the point is they limit scale and force the developers to match the community. There's nothing attractive or cohesive about forcing pedestrians to drive 50 feet from one store to another due to ditches and berms. And nothing attractive about Paul Bunyon size signs that are so overbearing (http://www.futuregringo.com/grandrapids/grandvillebigmall.JPG)[/URL] they look like a Las Vegas casino sign without lights. You can have a Wal-Mart yet still have an attractive building not paved over for four football fields in every direction.
Worst yet? For years Grandville has been dry on Sundays, the town council's morals forbage liquor or beer to be served in restaurants. For a few years now the row of homogenous red neon striped chain restaurants have harped on the council to rescind the law, and sure enough they did. Proving that enough financial gain wins out over their morals.
Anyway sorry to btch. South Grandville is a scab on the landscape now. I hope it doesn't happen in your nearby neighborhood. If a former resident can have any bearing please feel free to print and read my comments before the next council meeting.
deputyjones
04-11-07, 08:15 PM
Best wishes. I've seen first hand how Grandville completely trashed the south end of town with Rivertown Crossings. (Kent County). They had an opportunity in the mid 90s to develop a bunch of fields into a walkable pedestrian friendly environment near a high school and homes, but instead were blinded by dollar signs while prefab buildings mushroomed up around a giant mall without any thought to traffic, pedestrians, or community.
Plenty of new retail pads or "lifestyle centers" are built with accessability in mind. They aren't perfect, and Saturdays they're still jammed with traffic, but the point is they limit scale and force the developers to match the community. There's nothing attractive or cohesive about forcing pedestrians to drive 50 feet from one store to another due to ditches and berms. And nothing attractive about Paul Bunyon size signs that are so overbearing (http://www.futuregringo.com/grandrapids/grandvillebigmall.JPG)[/URL] they look like a Las Vegas casino sign without lights. You can have a Wal-Mart yet still have an attractive building not paved over for four football fields in every direction.
Worst yet? For years Grandville has been dry on Sundays, the town council's morals forbage liquor or beer to be served in restaurants. For a few years now the row of homogenous red neon striped chain restaurants have harped on the council to rescind the law, and sure enough they did. Proving that enough financial gain wins out over their morals.
Anyway sorry to btch. South Grandville is a scab on the landscape now. I hope it doesn't happen in your nearby neighborhood. If a former resident can have any bearing please feel free to print and read my comments before the next council meeting.
+1, I avoid that area like the plague. It is really kind of sad.
r8ingbull
04-11-07, 08:18 PM
You could suggest that by rejecting wal-mart the local kids will be less likely to be killed in car accidents, and their parents will have a lower incidence of disease (living in an urban/walkable neighbourhood is correlated with 6.3 lbs lower average body weight). Because they will be living in a more walkable neighbourhood.
The meeting was tonight. The townships council decided the zoning language needed to go back tot he planning commission to rework some language. He objected to a part about Mixed use restricting "Long uninterrupted vertical wall faces". The way I understand it, the language needs to be more clear and specify a numeric distance" The township also agreed to spend $6500 on a traffic survey. Just another way Wal-mart transfers cost to the taxpayers. the last meeting surprised Wal-mart with about 95% opposed, this time they sent every off duty employee they could, the crowd was about 60% opposed 40% in favor.
It sounds as if the township supervisor is concerned with making a rejection defensible in court, so they are delaying to cover all the bases.
The reason I posted the above quote: Several people stood up to say "We need progress because our children all want to leave for jobs and walmart will make them want to stay" I couldn't keep from laughing at that one.
r8ingbull
04-11-07, 08:25 PM
Best wishes. I've seen first hand how Grandville completely trashed the south end of town with Rivertown Crossings. (Kent County). They had an opportunity in the mid 90s to develop a bunch of fields into a walkable pedestrian friendly environment near a high school and homes, but instead were blinded by dollar signs while prefab buildings mushroomed up around a giant mall without any thought to traffic, pedestrians, or community.
Plenty of new retail pads or "lifestyle centers" are built with accessability in mind. They aren't perfect, and Saturdays they're still jammed with traffic, but the point is they limit scale and force the developers to match the community. There's nothing attractive or cohesive about forcing pedestrians to drive 50 feet from one store to another due to ditches and berms. And nothing attractive about Paul Bunyon size signs that are so overbearing (http://www.futuregringo.com/grandrapids/grandvillebigmall.JPG)[/URL] they look like a Las Vegas casino sign without lights. You can have a Wal-Mart yet still have an attractive building not paved over for four football fields in every direction.
Worst yet? For years Grandville has been dry on Sundays, the town council's morals forbage liquor or beer to be served in restaurants. For a few years now the row of homogenous red neon striped chain restaurants have harped on the council to rescind the law, and sure enough they did. Proving that enough financial gain wins out over their morals.
Anyway sorry to btch. South Grandville is a scab on the landscape now. I hope it doesn't happen in your nearby neighborhood. If a former resident can have any bearing please feel free to print and read my comments before the next council meeting.
My family owns the hardware store in Byron (just south of Rivertown crossings). I know exactly what that mall did to the area. Now with M-6 it's spreading.
donrhummy
04-11-07, 08:43 PM
In the small town I live in (pop. 6,000) Walmart is currently trying to change a 20 acre parcel from Mixed Use to allow a 203,00sqf SuperCenter. The mixed use area is limited to 10,000sqf and intended for small local businesses. The zoning is written to allow walkable development. The township stated they want the type of place where a shopkeeper can have his store or gallery or service located on the main floor and residence on the upper floors.
Walmart appeared before the zoning board, opposition packed the place and the hallways and were standing around outside. The motion was rejected by the board 5-0. On Wednesday April 11th Walmart is going before the full township board to seek approval. The township had to rent a larger room at the Fairgrounds to hold the meeting.
I see people posting here all the time about walkable, liveable, bikeable cities. I'm hoping people on this board will e-mail the township supervisor with your opinions on this. They have stated all e-mails get delivered to all board members. supervisor@rutlandtownship.org
I found this post on-line, it's such a small town I can't find much other info for you: http://westmichiganpolitics.blogspot.com/
How many other small towns actually have a mixed use area? I'd like to hear what other's on this board think about big-boxes. This proposed site is just outside the city limits, and we all know how that helps make things easy to get to on a bike (yeah right).
If I were you, I'd collect every piece of info you can find (and that's been posted here -- also watch the videos) and put it together and take it to that meeting. Then get up and hand out the sheets to everyone in the room and read the main points aloud.
donrhummy
04-11-07, 08:44 PM
It might also be worth going to a board member personally outside the meeting to make your points. Seriously.
TimJ
04-12-07, 10:30 AM
If I were you, I'd collect every piece of info you can find (and that's been posted here -- also watch the videos) and put it together and take it to that meeting. Then get up and hand out the sheets to everyone in the room and read the main points aloud.
+1
Go back to the next meeting with data. Walmart doesn't have a leg to stand on any more. At first they concentrated on more rural areas where they could basically be the one store to go to within 50 miles and I think that had a far less negative impact because these were areas that didn't have much retail in the first place. All their growth lately has been in more and more retail-saturated and populated areas and their business practices just do not fit. They provide one thing, generally lower prices, and that's it. As an employer they are a joke, it's easy to collect data on that- they pay crap and they provide very few benefits because most of their employees are part-time (though they classify them as "full time", legally they are part time). Their stores also have a generally depressive effect on wages where they're located. And the low prices... when they were trying to come into Torrance (?) their big argument was "the population could save x million dollars a year with our store". Basically they were calculating if every single person within, however many miles, shopped no where else but Walmart, they could save x dollars over whomever they compared their prices to. In other words it was a huge load of crap.
And then there's the way they get those low prices. It's true that Walmart can have a positive effect on the efficiency of companies they do business with. They're a model of effeciency when it comes to distribution and inventory, stuff like that, and they basically sit on the chest of anyone that wants to sell to them and make them squeeze out more effeciency so they can get a lower price. However, that's just on aspect of how they get low prices. They also force companies to relocate. Walmart is unique in that it sets the price it will pay for a product, not the manufacturer. Often Walmart will want to lower the price of a product it currently carries and it will basically say "give us this price or we'll find someone else's widget to sell". The company often has no choice except to move production overseas, and Walmart is literally responsible for much of the push toward overseas manufacturing.
Now, people will often argue that they can't "force" anyone to do anything, that the companies they work with have a choice. This is not true. If the company in question is publically traded they literally have no choice. Walmart is often the biggest customer for a manufacturer and without them the manufacturer would go under. A publically traded company cannot choose bankruptcy if there is a way to avoid it. They are legally obligated to maximize shareholder value and so if Walmart says "give us this price or go" and Walmart makes up 80% of their sales, their only options are to disappear or move manufacturing overseas. I mean, it was kind of a slow, steady stream of companies moving manufacturing to China, etc., and though a lot of it has to do with legislation crafted on the behalf of big business, Walmart has been a pretty big part of it.
Top to bottom there is nothing good Walmart can bring to a community besides generally lower prices that will benefit some people in the community. All the negatives far outweigh that one plus, though.
Start researching.
donrhummy
04-12-07, 12:46 PM
Yep, and I think perhaps the most useful info would be showing that there will be no tax benefit to the town. Show how they consistently skip town when the tax is about to kick in (like someone mentioned above). I think this might have the best bet since talking about employee treatment, etc allows some town board members to still say, "yes, but we'll be making that up with taxes..."
Roody
04-12-07, 01:01 PM
You might want to research what Walmart did to Vlasic Pickles, a Michigan company (formerly). For every cheapass job Walmart creates, many better jobs are sacrificed.
Roody
04-12-07, 01:11 PM
Another point to make is Walmart's practice of abandoning stores just a few years after they open them. According to Sprawl-busters (http://www.sprawl-busters.com/search.php?readstory=2265), 11 stores have been abandoned in Michigan alone. Typically they just leave the building vacant, off the tax rolls, an eyesore that's difficult to sell to other retailers.
From the Miami Herald (http://www.commondreams.org/views/122000-102.htm):
Wal-Mart is one of the worst offenders. According to the latest tally from Sprawl-Busters, an organization that helps communities fight superstore sprawl, the United States is home to 380 empty Wal-Mart stores. Sometimes Wal-Mart abandons a town altogether. More often, the company closes a store and opens a larger store nearby. Wal-Mart plans to ``relocate'' as many as 110 stores next year.
Most abandoned stores remain vacant for many years. The buildings are unsuitable for much besides big-box retailing. National retailers generally prefer to maintain the lease rather than let the property fall into the hands of a competitor.
Google search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=abandoned+walmart+store&btnG=Google+Search)
r8ingbull
04-12-07, 02:13 PM
Another point to make is Walmart's practice of abandoning stores just a few years after they open them. According to Sprawl-busters (http://www.sprawl-busters.com/search.php?readstory=2265), 11 stores have been abandoned in Michigan alone. Typically they just leave the building vacant, off the tax rolls, an eyesore that's difficult to sell to other retailers.
From the Miami Herald (http://www.commondreams.org/views/122000-102.htm):
Google search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=abandoned+walmart+store&btnG=Google+Search)
That's what they are doing here. They built on the state highway 2 miles out of town, two years later made the city run sewer. Now Walmart (using a realty front company) bought a 20 acre parcel in a residential area from the school board (who thought is was being developed into houses). The new location is about 500 yards south of the old location, but in a completely different feeling area.
If you click on aerial image, you can see the large building by the star (consumers power) the dirt bike track to the west is the proposed site. Further west at the corner of State and Green is the current building (about 500 yards).
If you follow the roads east you can see our beautiful downtown area and wonderful gridded street layout. city limits are just east at Cook Rd.
Roody
04-12-07, 02:35 PM
That's what they are doing here. They built on the state highway 2 miles out of town, two years later made the city run sewer. Now Walmart (using a realty front company) bought a 20 acre parcel in a residential area from the school board (who thought is was being developed into houses). The new location is about 500 yards south of the old location, but in a completely different feeling area.
If you click on aerial image, you can see the large building by the star (consumers power) the dirt bike track to the west is the proposed site. Further west at the corner of State and Green is the current building (about 500 yards).
If you follow the roads east you can see our beautiful downtown area and wonderful gridded street layout. city limits are just east at Cook Rd.
Yes. is exactly what i was talking about. They abandon one store and build a bigger one nearby. then they leave the old one empty rather than sell it to a competitor. They probably have a 99 year lease on the site, and they can hold the lease with minimum payments. And the taxes on it go way down because an empty store has no value. they are nefarious.
Can the township refuse to extend the sewers to the new site? Can they get an independent environmental impact statement?
Hastings is a very nice area, near the big city of Grand Rapids, and not too far from Lansing, where I live. Nice hills and woods, beautiful farms, great riding area. You all do not deserve this!
TimJ
04-12-07, 03:22 PM
God I hate Walmart so much. This thread is gettin' my blood boiling.
I've proudly never even been in one. Of course I've never lived near one...
deputyjones
04-12-07, 03:50 PM
It might also be worth going to a board member personally outside the meeting to make your points. Seriously.
This is good advice. Exploit every opportunity to politic with the people who will ultimately decide because your enemies will do the same. Activism and facts are awesome and can be effective, but smoke filled backrooms are where the decisions are really made.