Touring - Radical minimalist sleeping arrangements

Deer sleep outside without tents, without pads, and without sleeping bags. Their summer coats are often sparse. They sleep well, even though the temperatures can vary quite a bit, and even though it is sometimes raining at night.

Granted, many of us humans are relatively hairless mammals. However, there are all kinds of substitutes for a coat of hair. Various wicking, warm-when-wet fabrics and wools are among them.

Deer often bed down in a little scrape in the forest. Bears do something very similar.

Our close relatives in Africa (various large primates there) also sleep under the stars in simple nests, often made quickly from leaves and twigs.

I once tried it while on tour, just to do it. One night I just slept on top of a big rock out in a lava field. I was able to get comfortable, even on a very hard surface, by positioning my body somewhat carefully, and finding a slightly sculpted indentation.

Human beings also have rain gear. And layering systems.

Why not sleep in a good rain suit? It simplifies things enormously.

It seems that this idea could be taken further. Maybe someone on this forum can help forge some new possibilities for simpler, more minimalist sleeping arrangements.

Sleeping in a scrape for your butt is an old way of being comfortable on the ground.
Many minimalist folks use leaves etc as insulation, but you have to like bugs and insects.
If the ground, or rock, is cold its thermal capacity will pull heat away from you fast which
is why a sleeping mat is used by even the most mininalist folks. The most minimalist
I'd want to go would be bubble wrap or closed cell foam as a mat and a bivy bag.
here's a couple of good examples

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=271722&page=3

http://www2.arnes.si/~ikovse/weight.htm

I don't know about going quite THAT minimalist...:eek: However many times in the summer all I have for sleeping protection is a light wool blanket, a piece of plastic sheet and perhaps a mosquito net. In the winter if stealth camping a sleeping bag and bivy sack are all I will use. For longer trips a tent comes in handy for the really rough weather. Humans have a very narrow range of body temps that can be handled and hypothermia is no fun.

Aaron:)

Deer sleep outside without tents, without pads, and without sleeping bags. Their summer coats are often sparse. They sleep well, even though the temperatures can vary quite a bit, and even though it is sometimes raining at night.
. . . . It seems that this idea could be taken further. Maybe someone on this forum can help forge some new possibilities for simpler, more minimalist sleeping arrangements.

Interesting idea.

For me though, a tent *is* minimalist!

Niles, you sound like you haven't slept outside much.

I tour to relax and enjoy the scenes and get away from stress I try to make it as comfortable as possible with out taking a big hit. For example I am not going to take dual pads but I will take a Z-lite. I wont take a full tent I will take a tarp tent setup sure if you want to go all primitive it is your life I want to be comfy

OK, big disclaimer: I haven't camped in many a moon, so others no doubt have more experience than I. That said....

Don't underestimate the evolutionary advantage of a fur coat. Even with 'em, many of our "cousins" are restricted to hot climates. And while our ancestors did not have Therm-a-Rests, they also didn't make it much past the grand old age of 25. I'm guessing that shelters are a part of why we now live to 70 or so. ;)

I might add that human bodies are substantially different than deer or caribou. So pointing out that deer (10 yr average life span btw) don't use dome tents isn't particularly useful.

Fortunately, there are places and times when you can sleep without a shelter at all. If it's dry, minimal bugs, reasonably warm, and the ground is good, you're golden. Also, tarps are pretty minimal, very flexible, can keep out some of the rain, and maybe some bugs, but are much more open than tents.

I'd also recommend that even if "no shelter" is your plan, bring along an ultralight bivy bag or a tarp, and some sort of space blanket or emergency sleeping bag anyway. You never know when a storm will kick up or the temperature will drop.

Other than that, well, what more ideas do you need? I mean, if you're going to camp without Stuff, there isn't much to discuss, is there? :D

Niles, you sound like you haven't slept outside much.
+1

So pointing out that deer (10 yr average life span btw) don't use dome tents isn't particularly useful.

;) Thanks for all the humor, guys.

***
Consider: The most primitive of recent human societies (technologically) was found in New Guinea, where the natives hadn't yet developed the idea of clothing.

They slept out in the open. No clothes, no blankets, nada.

Contrary to some assumptions, it did sometimes get a bit chilly during the winters. They shivered and adapted.

***
Consider: Tibetan monks develop the ability to sit out in the snow and melt the snow with their bodies.

***
Consider: Socrates was known for wearing sandals in the snow and being fine with it while everyone else bundled up.

***
Consider: Biofeedback can be used to develop all kinds of unusual abilities (including not getting seasick or spacesick (space shuttle astronauts use it in training)).

***
Consider: Why wouldn't well-designed layering systems work? Layer-vapor barrier-insulating layer-vapor barrier-another layer-rain suit, for colder conditions? Simpler layering systems for milder conditions?

Are we (modern day humans) really so weak and overcivilized and etiolated [love that word] that we have lost the robustness to do some of these things?

***
Consider: Summer temperatures in much of world are mild.

***
Consider: I once toured in a tropical area that had some serious bug problems (including large centipedes and cckroaches that could locate you from the air and zero in on prospective food (in numbers)). I was bitten by a large centipede my first night out, while sleeping on the edge of a beach. My solution was to cover my whole body in clothing -- socks, cotton gloves, hat with netting to cover face, etc., and slept well that way (with no tent at times).

***
Consider: I once tried sleeping out in the rain in thick Patagonia polypro. It was a warm climate, but not warm enough to sleep in the rain without some kind of insulation. It worked, and the polypro was multi-functional (unlike a sleeping bag, which isn't much good during the day).
(It was clammy though, and the technique needs some refinement.)

***
Consider: Tom Brown and other survivalists go out into the forests (temperate zone) with nothing, and survive.

Why are bike tourists such wusses?

(when it comes to this stuff at least)

I don't consider myself a wuss because I prefer to sleep in a tent (A full tent by the way, not just a tarp). The way I see it, if I sleep well, I can ride farther the next day then if I slept in the rain on a rock.

I agree that a good night's sleep is important.

Part of the challenge is to make it a good night's sleep as well.

I might just sleep better in a good rainsuit with good earplugs than in a tent without the earplugs.

***
(Of course it is true that the earplugs could be used (or not) either way; still, it does not seem a necessarily impossible task to get a good night's sleep without tent, bag, pad. There are some extra challenges, and parting with conventions; but it might just be a real possibility....)

;)
Why are bike tourists such wusses?

(when it comes to this stuff at least)

I've slept on a Californian beach comfortably in a T-shirt and all i was afraid of was meeting Gidget,
and if I was a Shaolin monk I could survive in the american West barefoot with only a blanket roll.

Its true that most bicycle tourists carry more stuff than the ultralight backpackers, I've never understood
that myself, but the survivalist folks you want to emmulate are really hardcore. Do it if you want, I admire
your spirit, but I'd also advise caution, remember a tent, a bag and a mat can weigh under 4lbs.

Also take a look at this link that I posted a while back for hardcore bicycle touring, they did take sleeping bags but no tent or mat, apparently the Gobi Desert is hard. I'm pretty wussy now that I'm old and have a credit card, but these guys are not....

http://web.archive.org/web/20041211045554/http://www.koopmann.lightup.net/crane/

niles, i do consider all that and also know that for your comfort, you are better off taking a basic mat to sleep on and some type of sleeping system. the ground sucks the heat right out of you, even on 'warm' summer nights. Tom Brown would make a lean to, a mat and some insulation in the woods.

I've seen animals shivering in the rain.


I've slept outside hundreds of nights, likely over a thousand in my life, and a dozens without sleeping bags or mats. I've slept in a snowbank during a blizzard by diving in wearing wool clothing. I lived on a beach one summer with nothing but a wool blanket. sand gets cold.

I've camped out in the winter in a pine bough lean to, and snowcaves. I've slept curled up next to trees in the rain. I've bivied on rock ledges sitting on ropes. I've spent the night outside with my feet stuffed in a backpack and wearing a rainshell.


yes, you will likely survive without a lot of creature comforts, but shivering the night away until dawn breaks is not an enjoyable or restful way to spend the night. and it's always darkest before the dawn....


get yourself a nice light sleeping bag, some weigh one pound, and a mat system of some kind. you'll be very happy you've moved beyond mere animal survival.

Here's a photo of a bike touring sleep system using a emergency medical bivy bag, a pad, a hat, a down vest and some newspaper for warmth.

A tarp, sleeping pad, and quilt is pretty simple and will keep you warmer than sleeping in a rain suit. Sleeping in the rian in a rainsuit would be a truly miserable experience, even if you don't end up with hypothermia. You will end up completely soaked in short order. Rain gear is designed to shed water downward when you are mostly vertical. When you are horizontal, the water will have no trouble getting in.

A better idea would be to get an ultralight poncho/tarp combination. You can wear the poncho for rain protection during the day, and pitch it as a tarp in the evening. One piece of gear with two uses. It would be a bit cramped and not have room for much gear though.

Don't give up on the idea of a sleeping pad and bag (or quilt). Sleeping on bare ground in any but summer conditions will suck the heat out of you. Putting together a bed of dry leaves and pine needles is great so long as there are dry leaves available and they are not full of insects. Otherwise, a thermarest is pretty handy and gets a lot of use.

BTW, what you do in a survival situation is much different than when you plan ahead. It's foolish to eschew proper equipment unless you know exactly what you are doing. People who specialize in playing survival games generally have considerable experience and practice under controlled conditions. Even then, you'll probably find they spend quite a bit of effort making shelter. Putting up a tent would be much simpler.

If you want to experiment, then give it a try, but keep your regular gear handy in case things don't work out.

It seems that this idea could be taken further. Maybe someone on this forum can help forge some new possibilities for simpler, more minimalist sleeping arrangements.


Which begs the question... why?


If a deer could sleep in a climate controlled shelter out of the rain and away from disease carrying ticks & mosquitos, and were smart enough to do so, don't you think they would? They do it because they have to and know no better. That's the great thing about evolution.

;) Thanks for all the humor, guys.

***
Consider: The most primitive of recent human societies (technologically) was found in New Guinea, where the natives hadn't yet developed the idea of clothing.

They slept out in the open. No clothes, no blankets, nada.

Contrary to some assumptions, it did sometimes get a bit chilly during the winters. They shivered and adapted.

***
Consider: Tibetan monks develop the ability to sit out in the snow and melt the snow with their bodies.

***
Consider: Socrates was known for wearing sandals in the snow and being fine with it while everyone else bundled up.

***
Consider: Biofeedback can be used to develop all kinds of unusual abilities (including not getting seasick or spacesick (space shuttle astronauts use it in training)).

***
Consider: Why wouldn't well-designed layering systems work? Layer-vapor barrier-insulating layer-vapor barrier-another layer-rain suit, for colder conditions? Simpler layering systems for milder conditions?

Are we (modern day humans) really so weak and overcivilized and etiolated [love that word] that we have lost the robustness to do some of these things?

***
Consider: Summer temperatures in much of world are mild.

***
Consider: I once toured in a tropical area that had some serious bug problems (including large centipedes and cckroaches that could locate you from the air and zero in on prospective food (in numbers)). I was bitten by a large centipede my first night out, while sleeping on the edge of a beach. My solution was to cover my whole body in clothing -- socks, cotton gloves, hat with netting to cover face, etc., and slept well that way (with no tent at times).

***
Consider: I once tried sleeping out in the rain in thick Patagonia polypro. It was a warm climate, but not warm enough to sleep in the rain without some kind of insulation. It worked, and the polypro was multi-functional (unlike a sleeping bag, which isn't much good during the day).
(It was clammy though, and the technique needs some refinement.)

***
Consider: Tom Brown and other survivalists go out into the forests (temperate zone) with nothing, and survive.

Why are bike tourists such wusses?

(when it comes to this stuff at least)

Do what ever you want but don't come crying when you come back with a strange disease. I must be a wuss because I am not a tibetan monk or socreates that makes a lot of sense

I'll be going somewhat minimalist this summer. All I'm bringing on my tour is a bivy and thermos blanket. I plan on doing as you said and sleeping in my rain gear and perhaps some of my casual clothing that is softer. I'll use my dromedary bag or compression sack as a pillow and foot rest. I'm still young so I could probably get away with it more than others. It's certainly not as minimalist as your scenerios, but I still want some protection and comfort. If I bring these items on tour I might as well find ways to utilize them in my sleeping arrangements.

Its true that most bicycle tourists carry more stuff than the ultralight backpackers, I've never understood that myself

Because it's a lot easier to carry stuff on the bike than on one's back.


So pointing out that deer (10 yr average life span btw) don't use dome tents isn't particularly useful.

Considering average lifespan, I'll take the tortoise approach and carry my home everywhere!

I'll be going somewhat minimalist this summer. All I'm bringing on my tour is a bivy and thermos blanket. I plan on doing as you said and sleeping in my rain gear and perhaps some of my casual clothing that is softer. I'll use my dromedary bag or compression sack as a pillow and foot rest. I'm still young so I could probably get away with it more than others. It's certainly not as minimalist as your scenerios, but I still want some protection and comfort. If I bring these items on tour I might as well find ways to utilize them in my sleeping arrangements.


If you sleep in a bivy why would you wear your rain gear what is your bivy made out of mesh

Because it's a lot easier to carry stuff on the bike than on one's back.



But its also easier to carry less weight. I like my comfort, so I want a tent with a floor that is mosquito proof, a sleeping pad and a down bag or quilt and if I can get these to weigh as little as possible so much the better. I know that with ultralight stuff you can reduce weight without sacrificing much, if any, comfort.

Considering average lifespan, I'll take the tortoise approach and carry my home everywhere!
hahaha :D I think a tortoise is a very appropriate image for bicycle tourists

I believe the OP is interested in picking up a Bivvy sack.

37 years ago while a friend and
I were spending the summer camping in wyoming/Montana and Canada I enede up irreversibly damagin my heavy duty air mattress ( the standard at that time prior to foam pads). I slept for about six weeks on only a sleeping bag and a ground cover tarp that could fold over me if it rained. The first night I was miserable and felt every stone no matter how tiny. After that I slept well and did not notice any discomfort for the remaining trip. However I was 16 years old then and would not want to do it at this point in my life.

Permanentjuan has an interesting approach born of curiosity and an adventurous spirit. A few ideas may be verging on dangerous, but responses verging on nasty are really not neccesary.

I say get a small 1 man tent, a foam camping pad cut down to 4 feet long, and an ultralight 60 degree summer bag. You don't want to spend 2 hours trying to find a cave or building a house out of sticks and dental floss when it is pouring out. And rain sounds much nicer bouncing off your outer tent wall than off your nose and cheeks.

Thanks to all for the postings here.

One possibility that interests me is what I just came to see as a 'wearable bivy' -- one that allows increased mobility over a standard bivy.

Bivies and small tents (and (enclosed) hammocks) all share a quality that is not so great: they are cramped, and even claustrophobic, especially if your are stuck in them during long storms. How many people would voluntarily choose a home, or even a room in a home, that is this size?

If you had a purpose-built, functional, wearable bivy, with goggles, you would be in a very different position in relation to spaciousness.

(side note: although I agree with the basic point, I also think it is literally true that most deer would not enjoy a very enclosed space. There is something about being out under the open sky. It is one of the good things about being outside. It is one of the good things about cycling. (I think some have even mentioned this on other threads recently.)

You aren't cooped up (as you are in a car, an office, a room, a house, or a ___________).)

It seems very liberating to me.

***
Another way of looking at it is as a spacesuit. Or at least something similar -- something that would allow you to live and move in hostile environments.

I've never quite seen this done.

Except I did once see a guy who seemed to be living out of a small backpack, and he had an excellent Goretex rainsuit and hood, and was quite at home walking in the rain.

The wearable bivy is just an extension of this.

It could also have minimalist, built-in padding. The padding could serve several purposes, including insulation against cold ground, and injury protection while cycling (under some conditions at least). Good closed cell foam hip padding, for example, could work this way.

It might have to be a modified (or custom-made) rain suit to work well in the horizontal position.

I see no insurmountable barriers to making something like this work.

And, since it is a relatively fine-tunable layering system, it could keep you warm-enough-but-not-too-warm (unlike many sleeping bags) in a fairly wide range of conditions.

It could save a lot of trouble, too, and weight and complexity; and it could open up some new possibilities for camping sites. Setup could be very simple.

You need the Taiga Bivy Coat! Scroll to the last item on the page! (http://www.taigaworks.ca/tents/index.html)

I agree that raindrops on the face at night are not so desirable.

The design would take this into account.

There could be a hood designed to take care of the problem.

Basically, it would be a tent that is just very close to the body, to the point of being able to move around in it.

You'd wear this while riding the bike?

...the Taiga Bivy Coat![/URL]

Yes, thanks for that -- it's something close.

You'd wear this while riding the bike?

Good question! :o

This idea is a work in progress.

All the bugs haven't been worked out yet.

***
Seriously: Some of the layers could certainly be worn. Some of the padding even.

It's a versatile system.

:)

hermetically sealed space suit would defeat all!

poncho tarp is pretty versatile

like this one: http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/tentdetail.cfm/GO3070

there are about 101 different designs/manufatures out there so look around

here are some other cool tarps:

http://www.backcountrygear.com/tent/tarps_wings.cfm


here's another cool one:

http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/tentdetail.cfm/HL1080

If you sleep in a bivy why would you wear your rain gear what is your bivy made out of mesh

No my bivy is rain-proof. The rain suit isn't for protection from the rain while in the bivy, its for protection from the cold. The less air around your body that you have, the less energy it takes to keep warm. Essentially it's a blanket. Then the thermos blanket is just to trap more heat and also keep my butt dry if the weather is severe enough to get through the bivy.

I'm sure the OP could make it work with just a rain suit bivy. I wanted a little more protection from the weather and bugs. My panniers are not water proof either so I'd like to bring them in the bivy for protection with me. Don't forget about your other gear when you look to give up that tent/bivy. Matt

OK, I'm sorry, but I just gotta say it:

A few posts ago, sleeping pads are for wussy. Now you want padding inside your raingear? :D

Seriously, from a practical perspective that will not work. Totally detrimental while riding, useless while at rest (because all humans move and roll over while sleeping).

Also, I don't think you're saving much weight with this approach. Since you're carrying extra rain gear / layers, you'd be lucky to save more than 2 pounds over a down bag + pad + tarp. You also have no shelter for your gear (or "kitchen" iff you use a tarp). And setting up a modern tent, pad and bag is beyond simple. Heck, even I can do it! ;)

What can I say, if it could be done in a truly effective fashion, the ultralight crowd would've been all over it. As in, years ago. Like they are with tarps.

...Now you want padding inside your raingear? :D

Only for certain conditions.


Seriously, from a practical perspective that will not work. Totally detrimental while riding, useless while at rest (because all humans move and roll over while sleeping).

I've already tried something similar, and it worked.


Also, I don't think you're saving much weight with this approach. Since you're carrying extra rain gear / layers, you'd be lucky to save more than 2 pounds over a down bag + pad + tarp. You also have no shelter for your gear (or "kitchen" iff you use a tarp). And setting up a modern tent, pad and bag is beyond simple....

Saving the weight and bulk of tent, sleeping bag and pad is significant to me.

Agreed, the truly ultralite versions of each are a big (and expensive) improvement on the old versions.

Still....

Part of it is the challenge. And I like the style of it. It's liberating somehow.


What can I say, if it could be done in a truly effective fashion, the ultralight crowd would've been all over it. As in, years ago. Like they are with tarps.

People often say that of an innovation or departure. The ultralight crowd only became a crowd a few years ago.

People said very similar things to Ray Jardine when he pioneered a lot of the ultralight approaches.

(And they stayed in their ruts for decades.)

Niles, a lot of what you say actually works pretty well in the cold or the summer mountains. Before packs got so technical all the mountain ones had a bivy collar in them. The idea was that you would have most of the gear in use for the belay, then you pulled up the cover, and the pack became your lower half sleeping bag, along with your upper clothing. Or you had an elephant's foot sleeping bag to use with a down top. As time went on we go goretex jumpsuits with pile etc.. underneath them and you could just bury straight into a snowbank. Nothings perfect, there are many situations when you would need more insulation.

In summer though, the expense and cost of ultralight tarping gear is a lot less that what you are proposing, and the prottection is better. There is something to be said for a place to read a book. The biggest problem in the summer, are bugs, and tents are a lot more effective agianst bugs than any other alternative. And I don't want a tight fitting garment, I want lots of air circulation.

About the only thing I think you have nailed is the discomfort factor, and there is something to be said for a stoic approach, it just depends what you bottom line is, whether it's weight, cost, versatility, or stoic experience. In that regard you have to suit yourself.

30-35 pounds of bike & bike accessories, 3-6 pounds of clothing depending on weather/preference, plus tools, toiletries etc and we want to bother discussing 2-3 pounds of sleeping gear and compromising comfort versus 5-6 pounds and getting protection, padding and convenience. I don't get it.

Deer sleep outside without tents, without pads, and without sleeping bags. Their summer coats are often sparse. They sleep well, even though the temperatures can vary quite a bit, and even though it is sometimes raining at night.

And if you ask a deer do you think they would say they were always comfortable?


Our close relatives in Africa (various large primates there) also sleep under the stars in simple nests, often made quickly from leaves and twigs.

Yea and they spend their days picking bugs out of each other's hair and eating them.


Granted some of your posts have had some interesting ideas, I say to each his/her own.

Why do animals sleep outside without any amenities? Cause they have to. Why do they seem to not mind? Because they don't know any better.

I for one always camp in a tent. In my area if I didn't I would wake up as one large mosquito bite. Not particularily "fun" or "liberating" for me. Now I do generally use an old single person tent. It is barely larger than a sleeping bag and the entire thing is basically screen. So on clear nights I have a view of the sky. And it isn't bad even in the rain. But like I said, I don't like to get eaten alive while I sleep.

As far as the sleeping bag, I have gotten away without it in the summer months. I could get away in colder trips, but why? Unlike a Deer, I do know better.

Thank for all the replies.

A few responses and thoughts: the issue of comfort is an interesting one. This morning I was underdressed for the chill. It was a chillier morning that I expected. Enough to border on shivering, not enough to cause hypothermia.... And I realized that a lot of it is psychological. We pampered modern humans seem to whine about the most mild 'discomforts'. Wasn't it Einstein who wondered why everyone got so borderline hysterical about getting their hair wet in the rain?

Do deer whine about a little chill? Do they let it ruin their mornings? They don't seem to mind one iota.

***
Also, I was watching some duck-like birds playing and hunting in a river recently. They were flying fast with their heads underwater (bodies above), then diving and coming up with fish.

These and similar birds (cormorants, pelicans, Canadian geese, dippers, penguins, ducks, whatever birds those were that I saw, and so on -- there are many different species; and even the less-water-oriented birds often seem fine in the rain) -- these birds are amazing. Their coats breathe; they are not entirely sealed; the waters are often cold; they sleep in the rain or on the water, and they play in it, laugh at it and enjoy it.

Why are humans such wusses about this stuff?

With our abilities, we should be able to do better!

I really believe this. We should be able to come up with some better solutions and better attitudes and spirits in relation to these things.

Can't we come up with something as simple as a duck's coat?

Have you ever actually talked to a deer to get its opinion or are you just assuming, or do you have other ways of communicating with these creatures? Oh, and do deer have any thoughts on the school referendum we're having here?

Your biological comparisons aren't really useful... camels can go weeks without water. Why shouldn't we? Crocodiles can survive eating only a few times a year. Why shouldn't we? Giant squids live thousands of feet below the antartic ocean. Why shouldn't we?

A duck's coat may sound simple, but ducks have a constantly replenishing supply of feathers, down, and hydrophobic oils. The fibers themselves are very complicated and delicate. We, as humans, don't have this, nor the technology to replicate it reliably (ie. a full body coat of feathers). We don't lay eggs either, or have hearts that beat that fast.

As humans we evolved with large brains, bipedalism and great hands, not hydrophobic feathers. This is way more useful, because we can use those brains and hands to create lighter, more versatile and comfortable shelter than feathers. Take a human sized bird and shave off all their feathers and down and it would probably weigh the same as a tent, pad and bag. This is how we evolved, and we have been creating shelter for countless thousands of years.

With our abilities, we already do better than ducks, by way of tent, pad and bag. Intelligence should not be mistaken as 'wussiness'. Also note that ducks and most other birds spend significant energy building soft and warm nests.

Your biological comparisons aren't really useful... camels can go weeks without water. Why shouldn't we? Crocodiles can survive eating only a few times a year. Why shouldn't we? Giant squids live thousands of feet below the antartic ocean. Why shouldn't we?

A duck's coat may sound simple, but ducks have a constantly replenishing supply of feathers, down, and hydrophobic oils. The fibers themselves are very complicated and delicate. We, as humans, don't have this, nor the technology to replicate it reliably (ie. a full body coat of feathers). We don't lay eggs either, or have hearts that beat that fast.

As humans we evolved with large brains, bipedalism and great hands, not hydrophobic feathers. This is way more useful, because we can use those brains and hands to create lighter, more versatile and comfortable shelter than feathers. Take a human sized bird and shave off all their feathers and down and it would probably weigh the same as a tent, pad and bag. This is how we evolved, and we have been creating shelter for countless thousands of years.

With our abilities, we already do better than ducks, by way of tent, pad and bag. Intelligence should not be mistaken as 'wussiness'. Also note that ducks and most other birds spend significant energy building soft and warm nests.

Pansy. Just kidding, I hate to see common sense and science ruin a perfectly nutso thread.

One thing I don't think you are considering is that nature is pretty nasty when it comes to things that like to become much closers to you - I am thinking of ticks and mosquitos - both which carry so pretty serious diseases.

West Nile virus, Lyme Disease, Malaria (down in my neck of the jungle), dengue. Lots of really nasty things can be stopped with a little common sense - and really good mosquito netting.

Mosquito netting is cheap - and I would sure recommend it.

If animals are so happy with their ultra-lite camping approach and body hugging bivvies, why do they keep trying to get into my two-man tent?

I've had deer, gophers, cows, raccoons, and stray dogs all come knocking. Mice just slip in through the zipper gap without so much as a "hello." And that's just the animals I can identify.

Saving the weight and bulk of tent, sleeping bag and pad is significant to me.

One could say that one is a wuss for not wanting to carry the weight of a tent and sleeping bag.

"I really believe this. We should be able to come up with some better solutions and better attitudes and spirits in relation to these things."

Whatever deer may do or feel they don't do it out of a sense of stoicism, they just are what they are. In a cold winter many deer starve to death or freeze to death, they retain much the same happy face about it. A nearly starved deer actually looks pretty good. It gets a final burst of fuzzy face fur just before it kicks of.

For humans it's easy to argue cheapest, lightest, most comfortable. You see very few discusions here about the mushy middle bits: sorta warm, a little conceilable, not bad for pitching, not too heavy. And it's the same thing with just a little more discomfort. Nobody wants to take it too far so what are you really selling? If it's better solutions, I think we already have those, if it's more discomfort, I think that's hard to rate, but we certainly have that too, from on a sliding scale staying at a hotel or never leaving home in the first place, to freezing to death at your belay on some mountain climb.

If animals are so happy with their ultra-lite camping approach and body hugging bivvies, why do they keep trying to get into my two-man tent?

I've had deer, gophers, cows, raccoons, and stray dogs all come knocking. Mice just slip in through the zipper gap without so much as a "hello." And that's just the animals I can identify.

And don't forget the squirrels (sp?) living in my bathroom ceiling (or the cats under my house) - it's a cheap rental house by the way ;) . Apparently that space is sooo much more comfortable then hanging outdoors in their fur coats, open to all the elements. Maybe we don't need to ask the deers, just look at their smaller buddies who can fit in our unused spaces

To the OP. If a tent, pad and sleeping bag weighed nothing, and had no volume, would you still be against bringing them?

I'm having a hard time telling if you are trying to go lightweight, or if you are just trying to be uncomfortable, or just really like simplicity and only want to carry one single object other than the bike while out on tour just because.

If you really want to test yourself, just walk between destinations naked. For me, getting a good night's sleep really determines how far and hard I can ride, effectively cutting out the weight penalty of tent, pad and sleeping bag.

2003, Marc J. Soares, 100 Hikes in Yosemite National Park Page 21 :
'...stop, study the map, and wait for the others. It's better to be a wuss than a stud.'

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I don't know about this....

Better to be a free and playful bird than an overloaded, encumbered and trembling aversionmeister, hypnotized by modern society into thinking you're a hyperdelicate and fragile form of life....that has to do things as everyone does....and can't break out into something new....

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Most cats have a tremendous aversion to water. You can squirt them with a little stream and they bug out.

One breed of domestic cats (Turkish Vans) actually relish water, and jump at the chance to go in for a swim.

Human beings have be hypnotized into many unnecessary attitudes, aversions, habits, beliefs and assumptions.

Why not question more of this?

Do we all have to read the map, wait for others, toe the line, and ....?

You're making the assumption that carrying 5 pounds of shelter makes us "overloaded, encumbered and trembling aversionmeisters."

Does your bike also weigh 13 pounds? Do you leave your tools behind as well because knowing you can't fix a mechanical problem feels liberating? Do you actually feel like a bird when you're not carrying anything? Do you really wish you weren't a human and instead were born as a duck or a worm or something? Because you seem to be coming off that way...