Advocacy & Safety - No Bikes

Anyone ever seen the sign, "NO BICYCLES" (or something similar) in shopping center parking lots?

There is such a sign in the parking lot of a nearby Kroger grocery store. A security guard once told me that the owners of the shopping center posted the signs due to kids shoplifting and getting away on their bikes.

Has anybody had success in convincing shopping center property owners to remove such restrictions?

It's distasteful to me. It reminds me of the "WHITE ONLY" sign on restrooms. Just because there was a "WHITE ONLY" sign, that didn't mean there was a second place for someone to relieve themselves, except a tree.

:mad:

Pete,
a friendly advice, please don't go there, Oscar

There are two grocery stores in my town. One is a large chain store. The other is a much smaller local chain, I think they have five stores. The larger store can offer better prices, has a huge deli and bakery in the store. They also have much better specials. The smaller store can't offer the prices that the large chain store can.

The larger store will not allow me to lock my bike out front of the store. The smaller store allows me to park and lock my bike in there entry way, and use my trailer as a shopping cart. So guess ware I do my shopping, even if it costs me a few dollars more.

If the store has a no bikes policy, don't shop there. But tell them why you won't shop at their store. On that line of thinking I guess banks should not allow cars, because most bank robbers use cars to make their get away.

Originally posted by Pete Clark
It's distasteful to me. It reminds me of the "WHITE ONLY" sign on restrooms. Just because there was a "WHITE ONLY" sign, that didn't mean there was a second place for someone to relieve themselves, except a tree.

:mad:

You're not actually comparing this rule you have '(distaste)' for to the basic human rights blacks and other minorities struggled for in America, are you? I mean, I doubt you want to trivialize such a thing.

I see such signs on two of my local shopping centres. However, they have actually installed bike racks in the car park (which is the best place to lock up a bike anyway) so it doesn't bother me that much.

Originally posted by Chris L
I see such signs on two of my local shopping centres. However, they have actually installed bike racks in the car park (which is the best place to lock up a bike anyway) so it doesn't bother me that much. Same here. The local supermarket has a signs "No rollerblading. No skateboarding. No bicycling"
But they also have bike racks, and people use them.

I think the signs are just to keep kids from riding around in the parking lot.

The signs are usually on sidewalks, where we shouldn't be bicycling.

Tell them some people cannot drive a car due to medical conditions, such as epilepsy. Then ask them if they have ever heard of the American Disabilities Act which makes it illegal to not provide access for the handicapped.

Dave

"And the sign said long-haired freaky people (and cyclists) need not apply" :D

Originally posted by jatkins679
You're not actually comparing this rule you have '(distaste)' for to the basic human rights blacks and other minorities struggled for in America, are you? I mean, I doubt you want to trivialize such a thing.
If you had known anything about my life for the past 12 years, you'd never have said that.

It is people who speak about human rights without being personally involved in the struggle who trivialize it.

Originally posted by Pete Clark
Anyone ever seen the sign, "NO BICYCLES" (or something similar) in shopping center parking lots? It reminds me of the "WHITE ONLY" sign on restrooms. Just because there was a "WHITE ONLY" sign, that didn't mean there was a second place for someone to relieve themselves, except a tree.

:mad:

from:http://kenkifer.com/bikepages/advocacy/rdvspth.htm

"I think many of our bigoted attitudes towards cyclists go back to Henry Ford.
He believed in a limited kind of equality: an equality based on the motor car; if
you didn't have one, you didn't count. He worked to destroy alternate forms of
transportation. Of course this motor car bigotry was enforced by other
hostilities that already existed: anger towards the poor and envy of the physically
fit. Thus we find many people insisting that no other vehicles deserve the right
to be on the road, not bicycles nor motorcycles nor motorbikes (illegal in some
states) nor buses nor streetcars nor buggies nor farm tractors nor horses. Many
would also like to see the trucks off the road. In their highway utopia, only
those with nice automobiles would be allowed to travel at all, and they would
"arrive somewhere, in next to no time, and for nothing" (Thoreau's words, 150
years ago).

But, I think a lot of the bigotry comes from the fact that the automobile has
failed to provide that paradise we were promised. Most motorists, rather than
admitting the failure, blame the few remaining hindrances. Some actually
believe that if we did away with speed laws and traffic laws that our problems
would go away. "

and from:http://www.ucolick.org/~de/AltTrans/helmet.html

"anything that's different is dangerous, anything that's familiar is safe

This is a car culture. To ride a bike in urban areas for practical reasons, as opposed to riding on trails for entertainment,is peculiar. And anything that's different is perceived as dangerous. For example, it was not many years ago that my mother was warning me that eating tofu must be bad for me, and citing some bogus study about medical disorders among Japanese folks (high soy consumers). Only a decade or so later, the US health and diet press is exuding enthusiasm over soy foods and their "miraculous" benefits, and no one thinks eating soy foods is dangerous. When only a few people were doing it, it was "weird" and therefore must be risky. In other words, the risks to which we are accustomed never seem grave no matter how many lives they claim, and the risks that are unfamiliar or foreign always seem extreme. People who have grown up in active war zones can confirm this: you can even get used to living around unexploded live ordnance, or walking through light artillery fire to get to a party.

it's OK to be prejudiced against people if you can prove they're antisocial

In a related rule, stigmatizing an unfamiliar or minority behaviour as "dangerous" or "crazy" makes one's prejudice less blatant and more palatable. Remember "Reefer Madness"? I'm not saying that drug use is a great idea, but early propaganda about marijuana use hid official racism (and political influence by the cotton and tobacco industries under tones of dire, even hysterical, warning. One can recall similar attempts to accuse foreigners of harbouring plague,and contemporary attempts to demonize people of colour as the source of all crime. The Willie Horton commercial
worked quite well. Shrieks of Danger Danger Will Robinson short-circuit the public's reasoning power and strike for the gut -- exactly they're meant to. But am I really suggesting that we are prejudiced against cyclists?

can I see your driver's license please?

You bet we are prejudiced. Biking is not just different, it's inferior. Biking in the US is still seen as "kid stuff," as a frivolous form of play or sport; or it's seen as "hippie stuff," an indicator of social maladaptation and nonconformity, a failure to "grow up" and "fit in to the system". Contrast a city like Amsterdam, where every conceivable type of human being will go by on a bike in the course of an hour or two -- young, old, laypersons, nuns, suited and briefcased lawyers and executives, doctors, school children, grandpa going shopping, police officers, the whole world. Now try this in any American city. The bike riding population will be large only if the town is a college town or there's a "sporty" bike ride that day. The student crowd will be in their twenties, with backpacks. The sporty crowd will be a bunch of male jocks with mean expressions and a lot of costly clothing that one would not wear in any other social context :-) They will be identifiable as "different". All the "normal" people like doctors, gardeners, shoppers, executives, construction workers,cooks, fisherfolk, messengers, priests, and police officers will be in cars. In the USA, the only form of transportation recognized as necessary, adult, and normal is the automobile. Bike riders, of any age, are perceived as "kid-like' even if not literally young -- irresponsible, impractical, immature, not real adult citizens. After all, what's the primary form of legal ID in the US? Your driver's license. If we talk about traffic calming initiatives, gas taxes, reduced speed limits, and other desperate measures for slowing down the destruction of our country and our planet by universal automobile use -- people get really incensed. How dare we interfere with their driving habits? How dare we make it one penny more expensive or one second less convenient for them to drive? They paid a lot for those cars, and dammit they have a right to enjoy them fully. We are messing with the civil liberties of Adult Citizens here, folks -- watch out! The ready recourse to MHLs strikes me as the familiar tendency to impose surveillance and restriction on second-class citizens: in this case, cyclists. The surveillance and restriction may be justified by all manner of fancy language, but the effective social purpose is to formalize and emphasize the lower status of the target population. "

>>>>>>>>I think many of our bigoted attitudes towards cyclists go back to Henry Ford. He worked to destroy alternate forms of
transportation. >>>>>>>>>>

One of the best forms of transportation systems that was destroyed was the trolley. In the northeast, we had thousands of miles of tracks that stretched as far as Chicago! It was clean, efficient and quick form of transportation developed at the turn of then century. The big auto companies bought out several trolley systems in New Jersey and replaced them with buses. The diesel burning, over crowded bus has been a disaster for commuters. Most people will NEVER know how efficient and quick a light-rail (trolley) system really is since the cost of replacing those rails which were raised 40 yeasrs ago would cost BILLIONS.

Originally posted by Dahon.Steve
One of the best forms of transportation systems that was destroyed was the trolley. The big auto companies bought out several trolley systems in New Jersey and replaced them with buses.

I'll have to check a book I have at home but what I remember, General Motors Company bought the lines and tore them out, then worked out a deal with cities to have their busses run public transit.

Originally posted by closetbiker
I'll have to check a book I have at home but what I remember, G.M. Motors bought the lines and tore them out then worked out a deal with cities to have their busses run public transit.

Check out a movie: 'Who Framed Roger Rabbit'.

GM did exactly that: conspired with Firestone and other businesses to buy up privately-owned rail lines in places like LA, then shut them down. GM was actually found guilty of conspiracy in doing what they did and walked away with something like a $5000 fine.

In Roger Rabbit, they allude to this tongue-and-cheekly. It was funny seeing it in the theater because my SO and I apparently were the only ones who got the allusions since we were the only ones who laughed.

Originally posted by jatkins679
It was funny seeing it in the theater because my SO and I apparently were the only ones who got the allusions since we were the only ones who laughed.

I saw it with my kids and laughed too! Good laughs are always anchored in truth.

Judge Doom: A construction plan of epic proportions. We're calling it a freeway.
Eddie Valiant: Freeway? What the hell's a freeway?
Judge Doom: Eight lanes of shimmering cement running from here to Pasadena. Smooth, safe, fast! Traffic jams will be a thing of the past.
Judge Doom: You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night! Soon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations, inexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see! My God, it'll be beautiful!

Originally posted by Pete Clark
Anyone ever seen the sign, "NO BICYCLES" (or something similar) in shopping center parking lots?

There is such a sign in the parking lot of a nearby Kroger grocery store.

Lock your bike up to the signpost. Go on in and do your shopping. If someone gives you a hard time, hand them your grocery basket and apologize to the manager explaining that you assumed that the sign did not apply to cash paying customers.

Afterward, go home and write a nice letter to the Kroger corporate headquarters with a photo of the sign and asking why it is corporate policy to not sell food to bicyclists. Ask if they also discourage motorcyclists from shopping in their stores or is it just a policy against human powered humans.

Then, if you do not receive a satisfactory response within a couple weeks, write a very nice letter to your local newspaper editor referencing recent reports by the Centers for Disease Control stating that there is an obesity epidemic and that Americans need to eat less and get exercise. Question the wisdom of your local Kroger to discourage your efforts to follow the governments advice. Throw in a suggestion that the government tax food based on fat content for good measure.

If your local paper publishes the article, be sure to mail a copy to your local store and the corporate headquarters.

I have seen, and simply ignored, "no bicycles" or "no bicycling" signs in various shopping malls, parking lots, etc. If it ever did come down to a confrontation, I would write a tactful, but assertive, letter to the store's owners and top management, telling them why I now planned to boycott the store and enourage all of my friends to do likewise.

In contrast, I once attended a large local election victory celebration party at a private residence. As I walked my bicycle inside the front gate, the owner said, "Nice Bianchi! Please bring it inside and park it next to my Benotto." I reciprocate by encouraging all of my friends to frequent his restaurant.

I never lock my Brodie up on the bike racks anymore. I normally just use it for straight riding vs for errands like I did with my older one. However, many stores have allowed me to take my bike right into the store. Out of courtesy for other shoppers, I normally only do this in the first hour of the store opening or late evening when there are only a handful of shoppers so they do not have to navigate around my bike and I do not have to navigate around them. I should say that the majority of these stores are sports stores like Mountain Equipment Co-op or Sportchek but not all. I would never take it into a food store for obvious reasons.

The convenience stores are the least accomodating. One guy actually told me "leave your bike outside, I'll watch it "...Yeah...right !! Leave an unlocked, $1400 mountain bike outside a store and see how long it stays there under the "watchful" eye of the store owner.

Anyway, just wondered if others here have taken their bikes into the store itself ?

Justen

The Wally World near my house will not let me take my backpack in, in spite of women toting purses/backpacks even larger than the one I use. So, I just ride right through the front door, lock up my bike behind the greeter's little stand, hand over my pack to the greeter and tell them thanks for watching my bike.

'Le audace, le audace, toujours le adace."

Originally posted by Justen
Anyway, just wondered if others here have taken their bikes into the store itself ?

Justen
All the time. And I don't worry about it's size either - it's roughly the size of a shopping cart. I take it into the grocery store too - it's cleaner than the shopping carts.

The shopping where I go for Weight Watchers meetings has these signs posted as well.
I ride to my meetings almost every week. Noone has ever stopped me from riding right up to the door, and wheeling my bike inside for the meeting.

If i ride to the store for food I often take my bike in the store w/ me. unless I'm buying alot of items. then I'll lock it outside.

I've never had a complaint yet and doubt if I ever will.
but if I do, I'll simply walk out of the store and ride to another one.

Originally posted by John E
I have seen, and simply ignored, "no bicycles" or "no bicycling" signs in various shopping malls, parking lots, etc.
I think I'll do that from now on.

The first time I got confronted by security, I obeyed, but with protest. Next time it happens, I'll explain that the sign applies to children, not adult customers, and that if he wants to call the police, he's welcome.

Make tha adult paying customers

No bikes and no walking!!

Modern society is based on the premise that the only way to get anywhere is in a car. The whole idea of a "supermarket" is that the only way to get there is in a car.

In the old days, people went to the corner store, and they didn't need cars. They could walk to the corner store (there was one on every corner). And, if they didn't want to walk, the corner store delivered. They could take the bus or the streetcar (A.K.A. "trolley" or "tram") to work. And people did.

These days, if you don't travel by a personal car, you're out of luck.

Walking to a supermarket, while not impossible, is highly discouraged, even if it's just across the street. I swear, people that live less than 100 yards from a supermarket have to drive there.

Having walked to a supermarket more than a few times, I can tell you that there are simply no provisions for this: no sidewalks, no nothing. If you walk a block and a half to the grocery store, you're considered a freak. Actually, you're considered a freak if you walk anywhere.

And, yet, there are sidewalks: sidewalks to nowhere. It's scary! I saw a great crosswalk to nowhere today, and it cracked me up. Geeze, Louise! Who on God's Earth is gonna walk there? :D Sidewalks that could go somewhere end abruptly. "You're out on the street now, pal" :D

My favorite sidewalk, though, is on an Interstate highway near my house (yes, an Interstate with a sidewalk). You can't ride a bicycle on that highway (there are signs) but there's a friggin' sidewalk. I've been here 20 years, and I've never seen anybody on that sidewalk. In fact, I'd give somebody 20 bucks if they'd walk on it, 'cause I think it would be a hoot. Someday, maybe I'll walk on it (if I can ever figure out how to get to it, or where it is supposed to go), but I wouldn't be surprised if I got arrested.

People pay to go to a gym, but they won't walk 100 yards to buy a banana.

Ah, you've gotta love it!

The Metro Centre at Gateshead, until recently sited as the largest shopping Mall in Europe. (must have been overtaken now as they no longer make this boast)

Have now switched there claim to "We have have free parking for over ten thousand vehicles". But guess what.......

Yeh! your right, not a single place to rack a bike or offer security for a cyclist.
I have sent a couple of emails to their admin centre pointing this detail out, but without responce.

Last time I cycled there ( it is a ride of 25 miles from my location ) the "Bicycle Place" shop had advertised a sale on, so I went there to see if I could pick up a bargain.
I did not fancy locking my bike to railings or posts etc as it has the reputation as the Norths centre for car theft and thieving in general, as you can imagine with all those vehicles just standing there inviting such a situation.

So after due consideration I took my cycle around to the rear where goods are brought in and despatched hoping to find a safer place to leave it.

You "can`t bring that thing in here" the security guy in his booth called out to me!. So I quitely explained my purpose for leaving it in the goods yard . Do`snt matter he told me " I`m not being responsible for that "thing " as he kept calling my bike.

I just gave up and was feeling so pi$$ed off with his attitude I got on my bike and headed off home.

Originally posted by JRA
No bikes and no walking!!

Modern society is based on the premise that the only way to get anywhere is in a car.

And, yet, there are sidewalks: sidewalks to nowhere. It's scary! I saw a great crosswalk to nowhere today, and it cracked me up. Geeze, Louise! Who on God's Earth is gonna walk there? :D

My favorite sidewalk...I've been here 20 years, and I've never seen anybody on that sidewalk. In fact, I'd give somebody 20 bucks if they'd walk on it, 'cause I think it would be a hoot.

People pay to go to a gym, but they won't walk 100 yards to buy a banana.
Great rant!

:beer:


Originally posted by willic
So after due consideration I took my cycle around to the rear where goods are brought in and despatched hoping to find a safer place to leave it.

You "can`t bring that thing in here" the security guy in his booth called out to me!. So I quitely explained my purpose for leaving it in the goods yard . Do`snt matter he told me " I`m not being responsible for that "thing " as he kept calling my bike.

I just gave up and was feeling so pi$$ed off with his attitude I got on my bike and headed off home.
I guess some people have actually forgotten what those "things" are for.

:crash:

Originally posted by willic
"You can`t bring that thing in here I`m not being responsible for that "

Gee what a security breech!
:rolleyes:

What harm is a bicycle going to produce?

I still say it's simple discrimination based on being different.

If the original problem was

Originally posted by Pete Clark
A security guard once told me that the owners of the shopping center posted the signs due to kids shoplifting and getting away on their bikes.

Maybe they should ban only kids. How long would that last? Not very.

Banning bikes is easier because so few people ride them and the majority of people won't care because it wouldn't effect them.

I see the signs and it usually has a "no skateboards" along with the bicycles. I don't pay them any attention as I figure they are for the BMX croud/kids.

If I thought the signs applied to me I would go out of my way not to shop there and write the manager, such as I would if there were "no firearms allowed (30.06)" sign. At least one of them is written in the Bill of Rights.

I do think a shop/property owner should have the right to limit who and what comes on his private property, right or wrong.

ehenz

Originally posted by closetbiker
Gee what a security breech!
:rolleyes:

What harm is a bicycle going to produce?

I still say it's simple discrimination based on being different.

Quite possible. For some reason, bicycles attract the sort of paranoia that blacks and homosexuals once attracted (and, sadly, still do in some parts - as a close friend of mine recently reported from a trip to Gayndah). I don't know why people can't look at things like this rationally.

Yes!... Thats just about hit the nail on the head . Chris!

If you have not arrived at a destination without the aid of a motorised vehicle you are considered some kind of freak...

Ever noticed in Supermarkets how kids with their parents stare at you if you are wearing your cycle lid, even though they more than likely play around at home with a bike.
The look from them sayes it all.. They are already indoctrinated into being driven to the supermarket or town centre.

I weep for non-cyclists!

(How can they live?!)

:confused:

I am resolved what to do:

When someone draws a line and says, "Don't cross that," I think I'll cross it, if it's in the best interest of everyone.

So I think I'll start looking for places where bikes aren't welcome, such as drive-throughs and supermarket parking lots (but not freeways ;) ) and taking my bike there to blaze a trail.

:D

I'm sorry I missed most of this discussion, b/c now no one is paying attention. But anyways - nowhere in my town forbids bikes, but I saw at a very large shopping center in Lafayette, Indiana a sign that said "no bikes on property." This is a huge mall prob. 1/2 milw long and 1/4 mile across in the middle of town. Cars regularly cut through it to save time, so I assume a cyclist would want to also as to not ride a mile out of the way.

Last year I saw a tourer riding through it with panniers and all. I also saw a major commuter bike parked at the bike rack along with other bikes. The bike rack has now been removed. The commuter bike looked as though it belonged to an employee of a store, because it appeared locked up for the day, not for just a moment. I wonder where they lock it up now or if they had to quit. Maybe they were forced to buy a car to keep their minimum wage job!

The real question is: If I ride my TRIcycle there can they do anything about it? They would have to change their sign. What if I attach a small electric motor to the bike, then it's a motorbike and not a bike. Ha ha ha! We all know technicalities are the basis of laws, not overall logic or reason, so I could probably get away with this. I would just keep adapting to their signs.

Clay

another note, i have never really received a problem about bringing my bike into a place nor have i had a trouble locking it anywhere. granted i live in a college town, the only place that was ever bugged me is the post office. they won't let me bring it in for "safey reasons." however they are very polite about it so i don't bother to complain since i do need to send mail. i haven't tried bringing it into a store at home since my hometown is ultra suburban and a bike isn't really that helpful when i need to drive 5 miles to pickup a book. it makes sense to me to ride that far, but not when the drivers pay no attention at all and drive cars 10 times the size of me on my bike.

you can read about the destruction of public transit (in the form of Trolleys) here: http://www.bilderberg.org/#oil