Commuting - LED Technology and the Dinotte 500L

After some resistance over the price, I recently purchased the new Dinotte 500L. Before I start let me say I'm cheap and rarely buy into the cutting edge of technology. There are risks, such as premium pricing to support development costs and possible issues with product reliability, so it is better to wait a bit before embracing something new. But this time I needed a new light to replace my ailing Cygolite, which started working erratically in its second winter season. I commute yearround now and I'm doing a 24 hour mountain bike race this summer, so I had to buy something and I wanted a bright light to cover both uses (I also recently purchased a 3W Black Diamond headlamp for night skiing, so was intrigued by the new power of LED technology). I've had it out on a handful of test rides now and here are some initial reactions:

- It's clear to me LED technology has surpassed halogen and HID lights. The new Dinotte setup, while expensive now, offers a bright light with great coverage, versatile lighting adjustability, light batteries and decent runtimes. If it also proves durable, then a light like this is to me much more desirable than a HID. Some HIDs may be brighter but the overall cost coupled with bulb replacement costs is a showstopper. There are mighty good halogen options out there for half this price, but the light power, quality and battey runtimes all offset against going halogen.

- Unlike my old light, this product throws a broad beam that lights up what is in front of me and throws light out diagonally, lighting up the distance of turns. I'm impressed with the beam pattern for use both on and off road. In fact, I think I can use this light alone for night trail riding - even the race - but am doing some more testing on this front. (I do plan to attach the 3W spotlight mentioned above to my helmet for use in clutch situations, but I don't think I need anything more).

- The light is well-designed for commuting. I really like the flashing mode because it will deliver flashing bursts of light for dusk/dawn riding. The light also has three power settings, so you can set it to the conditions. Full power is more than enough for any road riding and may not be necessary in many conditions.

- The light comes with everything one needs for both road and off-road use. Mounts for bars and helmet and 2 batteries, which is enough to get through a team 24 hour race without visiting a charging station. The batteries are also light enough that one can carry them both while commuting, so there's a backup power source at all times. Or conversely one battery can be charged while the other is in use if you are forgetful like me.

Thanks for the review. I would be interested in hearing any other experiences or observations.

***
LEDs do seem like the way to go. There are so many options, it can be hard to sort them all out. The LED bike lights at princetontec.com look good to me.

There are probably some other good LED lights out there that I haven't even seen yet. If anyone knows of others that look good, I'd be interested in hearing about them, and checking out the websites and specs.

Hiles, here's a great recent review of LED light options http://www.gearreview.com/2007_led_lights.php

Hiles, here's a great recent review of LED light options http://www.gearreview.com/2007_led_lights.php

Nice review! I might look at this light next winter for my commuting needs. I have a Dinotte 3W light that I used this winter as my sole source of light on my commutes (I work a 9-5 job so my commutes during the winter months are at dusk/just after sundown). Still, I had a cut sidewall this year because I couldn't pick out road hazzards at all one evening on my ride home and that cost me $50 for a replacement tire (leave me alone on this one...I like commuting on my lightweight road bike, and I never get flats during daylight hours :p ).

a great recent review of LED light options http://www.gearreview.com/2007_led_lights.php

That was a great review -- just read it. Thanks for the posting.

I have the Dinotte 3W helmet light and it's great as a helmet light. But, I don't think any LED's are up to my ARC yet. Why didn't they show the ARC (or other top notch HID) for comparison?

$500 for an LED light is still way too rich for my blood. I'll take a $150 HID that throws out more light, thankyouverymuch!

Overall cost plus replacement cost is a showstopper for HID, but $500 for an LED light isn't?

I've got a TrailTech HID that I love. New, with LiIon lightweight battery and smart charger is $200. Replacement bulbs are $85. I'm going on 2 years and it's just as bright as it was when new, so I don't know what the $ per year is going to work out to.

The LED in the Dinotte isn't going to last forever either. High intensity LEDs have a limited lifespan (OK, ALL LEDs have a limited lifespan, but the low intensity ones are in tens of years)

It's great to know that LEDs are coming that can really do the job. I'd RATHER have an LED than an HID, but until someone's putting one out that's as bright as an HID and no more expensive, I'll stick with my HID.

My halogen is brighter, heavier, and less than 1/5 the cost.

Your ARC has been surpassed by an LED light: http://gretnabikes.com/default.asp

Rajit

I think the 830 wilma is probably only slighlty better (if at all) but at 2x the cost ... HID still wins IMO. If the price was close, then you'd be talking.

This review is somewhat obsolete now due to the recent arrival of the 830 lumen Lupine Wilma series.

Rajit

Sad to say, but you are right in regards to the Wilma. Of course, at the time (a mere few months ago) neither I, nor the US distributor had the new Wilma. I still don't. He sells out of them too fast to send me one! Maybe now that daylight is more prevalent I'll get a review sample :) .

To my knowledge, none of the other lights have changed. In fact, the only difference is the output of the Wilma. Oh, well, time and technology marches on.

HID still wins for me, because I just ain't paying that kind of cash for a headlight, and the HID is already so bright that I've gotten complaints from drivers when I had the thing pointed at the ground. If the light I have had a setting for twice as bright, I wouldn't use it. I can replace this HID for < $200. I'll be happy to go LED when the price gets down into that range AND my HID dies.

The Lupine Wilma is obsolete.

http://www.lumiledsfuture.com/products/line.cfm?lineId=19

The Rebel in cool white is rated at up to 145 lumens at 3.9v/1w from an emitter that is less than 3mm x 5mm.

You could mount 6 of these in an area of 1 cubic centimeter (less area than a single K2 emmiter), producing 870 lumens (seems like a lot of heat to manage - gonna have to mount a liquid CO2 cartridge / regulator unit next to the battery).

Rebel emitters cost $2.50 eack in bulk, so that 870 lumens would cost $15.

Lupine's next generation light will probably use these, and they'll manage to add another $600 onto the price.

It does look like the end of HID is now in sight.

That little dot next to the end of a AAA battery is the Rebel emitter. I'll need smaller fingers and bigger eyes to solder that...

Rebel emitters cost $2.50 eack in bulk, so that 870 lumens would cost $15.

Lupine's next generation light will probably use these, and they'll manage to add another $600 onto the price.

It does look like the end of HID is now in sight.

Yeah, as soon as some company that's not selling to the boutique market comes out with one priced reasonably. That is, maybe parts plus 100%? That would put a decently constructed model in the $100 range in retail. I'm assuming here that the body will have to be aluminum for heat dissipation, so the unit costs maybe $20 to build, package and put into distribution, then the various markups take it to $100 (I don't think that would be an unusual markup).

There simply isn't any reason any LED light should cost $500. Even the highest power emitter is still just a few bucks in quantity, and apart from that it's pretty basic standard electronics and an aluminum case.

Yeah, as soon as some company that's not selling to the boutique market comes out with one priced reasonably. That is, maybe parts plus 100%? That would put a decently constructed model in the $100 range in retail. I'm assuming here that the body will have to be aluminum for heat dissipation, so the unit costs maybe $20 to build, package and put into distribution, then the various markups take it to $100 (I don't think that would be an unusual markup).

There simply isn't any reason any LED light should cost $500. Even the highest power emitter is still just a few bucks in quantity, and apart from that it's pretty basic standard electronics and an aluminum case.
Don't forget the cost of the battery and charger. Batteries can be quite expensive.

Your ARC has been surpassed by an LED light: http://gretnabikes.com/default.asp

Rajit

I'm all for LED lights but I need to see comparison shots before I change over from my L+M HID to LED. Remember any light company can say what they want about lumens output,candle power or even comparable to 40 watt halogen lights.

The Lupine Wilma is obsolete.

No the Wilma is leading the pack. It's obsolete when you can buy something all finished for less, or that is brighter and has all the same features as the Wilma. The list of benefits goes way beyond how bright it is.
That's just the begining of the list.



There simply isn't any reason any LED light should cost $500. Even the highest power emitter is still just a few bucks in quantity, and apart from that it's pretty basic standard electronics and an aluminum case.

You need to read the manual for a Wilma. You need to talk to a manufacturing engineer who knows how to manufacture things like custom made housings and custom molded battery and charger cases. Custom circuit boards, custom plastic lenses and make the beam pattern work. Just read about the Wilma lenses.
You need to talk to someone who understands business, so they can tell you how a world wide sales distribution works. Is your labor for free? Do you have medical insurance? Did you include mark up for the distributors in other countries? What about a retailer, are they going to sell something with no profit for the retail shop? Don't go into bussiness selling lights.


I'm all for LED lights but I need to see comparison shots before I change over from my L+M HID to LED. Remember any light company can say what they want about lumens output,candle power or even comparable to 40 watt halogen lights

The beam comparison photos for the Wilma compared to HID were posted on the forum some time ago.
Lupine does not exagerate they don't have to. The beam photos show this. So does owning a Lupine light. They are probably the best bike lights made in the world. They are lighter, brighter, have better batteries, chargers, etc.

The beam comparison photos for the Wilma compared to HID were posted on the forum some time ago.
Lupine does not exagerate they don't have to. The beam photos show this. So does owning a Lupine light. They are probably the best bike lights made in the world. They are lighter, brighter, have better batteries, chargers, etc.

Do you know what thread that is. I have not seen them and would like to.

Do you know what thread that is. I have not seen them and would like to.

It might be the "light selection guide". It might be another thread "Lupine Wilma" or something like that.
It was almost the same as my 900 lumen Lupine HID. The beam shape might even be better for riding.
I'll try and find it.

Edit post: I found this in the Lupine Forum, it's exactly what you want.

http://www.lupine-lights.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1155

The cateye EL 530 is bright as hell for a single led. I have it. It is 1500 Candle power

Don't forget the cost of the battery and charger. Batteries can be quite expensive.

I'm assuming that eventually someone will put out a high-output LED headlight that takes 4 to 6 standard AA NiMH cells. But even if not, heck, the Trailtech HID comes with a 4000 mAH LiIon pack with a smart charger for $190, complete. LEDs should be cheaper than that.

Really, as far as I can tell, the real advantage of LED over HID is durability over long periods of time. HID is actually more efficient in lumens per watt than high output LEDs, but LEDs are going to last longer. Also LED doesn't need quite the circuitry that HID does.

While it's true that HIDs used to be more efficient than LEDs, that is no longer the case.

A Seoul P4 (U bin) will give you 200+ lumen output at 3.7 Watts.

While it's true that HIDs used to be more efficient than LEDs, that is no longer the case.

A Seoul P4 (U bin) will give you 200+ lumen output at 3.7 Watts.

Does not seem that way by your example. ???? There may be others. ??????

If my math is correct 200 lumens divided by 3.7 watts is .......................54.05 lumens per watt.

My 900 lumen HID is 16 watts. that works out to .................................56.25 lumens per watt.

Well, I think it's really something like 190 to 230 lumen, depending on how things go in the "bin lottery".

Plus when you run them at lower power it approaches 100 lumen/watt (at 1 watt).

That's something I love about LEDs: They are more efficient when you run them at lower power. They are very dimmable, can be made to flash, run basically forever, and don't cost $80 to replace because a bulb burns out/shatters.

As soon as the more mainstream light companies pick up on the Cree XR-Es and the Seoul P4s, I don't think there will be any reason to go HID.

$500 for an LED light is still way too rich for my blood. I'll take a $150 HID that throws out more light, thankyouverymuch!

You're the dood with the smashing behind on the bike right? I think you're the guy with the bright wide taillight. Anyways, CREE LED's and Seoul LED's are already in fighting competition with HID's right now in power. Current CREE XRE LEDs are 80lm @ 350mAh (lowest power setting and as bright as the claimed 80lm for the Ultra 3W Dinotte on high) and 176lm @ 1000mAh. These LED's are aquireable at as low as $7 USD/LED right now. As always the battery will always eat you 50% of the cost but still you can have a kick butt light for ~$100 USD that puts out more light then the 500L. 176lm x 4 LEDs = 704lm (3LED = 528lm). The Seoul LED's are slightly brighter then the CREE XRE's but Seoul has forecasted plans by Q4/07 to have a 216lm LED @ 1000mAh (if I remember the power specs) by the end of the year. So that would put out about ~95-100lm @ 350mAh roughly on the lowest power setting. Get ready to wash out that Beamers (BMW) lights at the next traffic lights. :love:

Yah I agree $500 is too rich for my blood. One of my old highschool mates is into LED's and just bought some K2's and a CREE for his motorbike but I plan on working with him for a bike version. He's a programmer so the LED thing is just on the side but I really hope to have the lights in prototype testing in a couple months.

This is the best looking DIY. Very nice looking and low profile as well for the helmet and bar mount. http://myfwyc.org/bikeled/DIY_LED_Bike_Lighting_Guide.html

That's something I love about LEDs: They are more efficient when you run them at lower power. They are very dimmable, can be made to flash, run basically forever, and don't cost $80 to replace because a bulb burns out/shatters.

How much does it cost to replace an LED when it finally dies? High power LEDs do die. OK, they fade away....

I agree though, at some point LED will replace HID. I think we could be there now but the manufacturers are milking the early adopters market for extra profits, same as they did with HID. Once someone does for the high power LED market what TrailTech did for HIDs, we'll have LED blowtorches for $150 or less.

Well, I think it's really something like 190 to 230 lumen, depending on how things go in the "bin lottery".

Plus when you run them at lower power it approaches 100 lumen/watt (at 1 watt).

That's something I love about LEDs: They are more efficient when you run them at lower power. They are very dimmable, can be made to flash, run basically forever, and don't cost $80 to replace because a bulb burns out/shatters.

As soon as the more mainstream light companies pick up on the Cree XR-Es and the Seoul P4s, I don't think there will be any reason to go HID.

I thought I read somewhere about 80+ lumens per watt. Did not think about the "bin lottery". Good point.
Good name for the variation too..."bin lottery"..I like it.

I did see the new Wilma. Too much money and not enough battery for a 24 hour race without spending time at a charging station. I will also like having 2 batteries for for commuting. So, the 2 batteries with the Dinotte package was a tipper for me. And, honestly,my early view is the Dinotte is plenty enough light.

You're the dood with the smashing behind on the bike right? I think you're the guy with the bright wide taillight. Anyways, CREE LED's and Seoul LED's are already in fighting competition with HID's right now in power. Current CREE XRE LEDs are 80lm @ 350mAh (lowest power setting and as bright as the claimed 80lm for the Ultra 3W Dinotte on high) and 176lm @ 1000mAh. These LED's are aquireable at as low as $7 USD/LED right now. As always the battery will always eat you 50% of the cost but still you can have a kick butt light for ~$100 USD that puts out more light then the 500L. 176lm x 4 LEDs = 704lm (3LED = 528lm). The Seoul LED's are slightly brighter then the CREE XRE's but Seoul has forecasted plans by Q4/07 to have a 216lm LED @ 1000mAh (if I remember the power specs) by the end of the year. So that would put out about ~95-100lm @ 350mAh roughly on the lowest power setting. Get ready to wash out that Beamers (BMW) lights at the next traffic lights. :love:

Yah I agree $500 is too rich for my blood. One of my old highschool mates is into LED's and just bought some K2's and a CREE for his motorbike but I plan on working with him for a bike version. He's a programmer so the LED thing is just on the side but I really hope to have the lights in prototype testing in a couple months.

This is the best looking DIY. Very nice looking and low profile as well for the helmet and bar mount. http://myfwyc.org/bikeled/DIY_LED_Bike_Lighting_Guide.html

Yep, that's me. LEDs make fine tail lights, but I'm not yet convinced that they're the best headlights. But hey, this thread is the first place where I've heard about these new 200+ lumen LEDs, so maybe I'll change my mind in a few months or so.

How much does it cost to replace an LED when it finally dies? High power LEDs do die. OK, they fade away....

A typical LED are rated to 50,000 hours at normal current, overrunning it could bring it down to 25,000 hours.

Are you going to ride long enough for 25,000 hours when the LED burns out? By the time you do, there is already a much better technology ready for you.

Personally I like this, but it's too much machining for me to do.

http://www.ks-creations.co.uk/TripLed1.jpg
http://www.ks-creations.co.uk/TripLed3.jpg

http://www.ks-creations.co.uk/TripLed2.jpg
Except it is running a somewhat outdated Luxeon III LEDs, if you can make one with Seoul P4s, that would be an awesome light.

Build link (http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=126276&highlight=handlebar).

This is pretty awesome as well.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g46/weedle256/bike_light/5_bike1.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g46/weedle256/bike_light/3_power.jpg
Build link (http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=147723).

Wanna find more? There's a link at Candlepowerforum that takes you to all the bike related thread.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/printthread.php?t=146894

Wanna find more? There's a link at Candlepowerforum that takes you to all the bike related thread.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/printthread.php?t=146894

Wow. So, can I buy parts and plug them in or do I need to fabricate everything and handwire a little motherboard to go into each enclosure?

Now wait a second, Luxeon now has a new emitter, called the Luxeon Rebel!

145 lumens at 700mA (http://www.luxeon.com/products/line.cfm?lineId=19). And it's TINY!

Wow. So, can I buy parts and plug them in or do I need to fabricate everything and handwire a little motherboard to go into each enclosure?

Buy parts and put everything together.

It might be the "light selection guide". It might be another thread "Lupine Wilma" or something like that.
It was almost the same as my 900 lumen Lupine HID. The beam shape might even be better for riding.
I'll try and find it.

Edit post: I found this in the Lupine Forum, it's exactly what you want.

http://www.lupine-lights.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1155

Thanks 2manybikes, I like the fact the beam shape is longer and more spread down the road. Then out into the field. My L+M ARC seems to waste light on the sides for road riding and into the night sky. yes it does have a very bright hot spot in the center. But alot of light is wasted going out to the sides. Do I need to see 30' past the ditch line? I think not.

I'll still wait until the ARC dies and hope for the price of the Lupine Wilma to come down.

Now wait a second, Luxeon now has a new emitter, called the Luxeon Rebel!
145 lumens at 700mA (http://www.luxeon.com/products/line.cfm?lineId=19). And it's TINY!

http://www.luxeon.com/images/products/rebel_subBanner.jpg

That's pita to work with. What's the lumen rating at 1000mA? At this point, Seoul P4s still wins as the LED to use. If the Rebels are in the same price range as Seoul P4s, that might be something to think about, but P4 stars are still the way to go as they are really easy to work with.

http://www.dealextreme.com/productimages/sku_1342_1_small.jpg

Available at http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1445

From the technical datasheet: http://www.luxeon.com/pdfs/DS56.pdf
It says that you get 145 lumens at 700mA. These are pretty small, you can fit a ton of these on a round pcb.

http://www.luxeonstar.com/item.php?id=5136&link_str=1394&partno=LXML-PWC1-0080

VERY small

Looking at the prices at that particular website, if you buy 10+ they are 4.30 each. If you buy 10 that would cost 43.00.

At 145 lumens each x 10 X 700mA = 1450 lumens at 7 watts. All in the size of about 1 Seoul P4.

Too bad they only have the 80 and 95 lumen @ 700mA in stock.

FWIW - I read the review posted in here and thought maybe I should look into the Princeton Tec Switchback 2. Its MSRP is $269(?). I found it at Universal Cycles for $223. They are also having a 10% off coupon for orders over $100. I got the light plus USPS Priority mail shipping for $213.20. Coupon is over May, 1.

https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=14131&category=3070

Wikipedia is a source of considerable data on LED's. I haven't checked recently but for some reason 67 lumens per watt sticks in my brain. Of course this is only the beginning. LED's are here to stay and 'will' become the standard... one day. Unfortunately that day is not today nor tomorrow even. Halogen still has legs and will do for several more years. HID is no more affordable or efficient than LED so if one really wants to be on the cutting edge one could do worse than be an early adopter of LED tech.

H

For rookies like me with no electronics background the LED on a star is the easiest (visually that is) to work with, with the DIY link I put up. It's just a matter of getting the parts right now for the best price.

The non-star LED's seem to be good for those that know there way around electronics to work in tighter spaces and such to cram more into the same space. That 145lm Rebel @ 700mA is nice for the size but at 350mA would be 72.5lm. I'll have to check the spec sheets again but I do believe the CREE XRE is 80lm @ 350mA.

Personally I like this, but it's too much machining for me to do.

I don't see any machining there at all. Those are just standard plumbing parts, assembled, they didn't make any of those parts from a block of metal.