Commuting - Surviving unscathed

A large number of injuries can be entirely avoided with simple, light protective gear. Many fractures just wouldn't happen.

Here is a great example of surviving an accident that would otherwise have been much worse,

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FYsMli570K8

Some of those chunks streaking along during the disintegration of the SR are human bodies. The pilot and the LCO.

I read a detailed account of another SR-71 disintegration. It was written by the pilot. Many people, including the pilot himself, could not believe that he lived through it; but with the right outfit it is amazing how well one can survive.

[Before getting back to bikes, in case anyone is interested in what is going on in this video -- besides some very interesting designs -- these craft, the SR-71 mothership and the drone that is separating from it, are traveling at very high speeds (mach 3+). The first two separations work out. After the third separation, the drone has problems as it lifts off and moves up into the shock waves around it. It falls back into the SR-71, causing the SR to pitch up. At those extreme speeds, pitching up means disintegration.]

Hope some of you enjoyed this clip.

Back to bikes:

I keep noticing, both in the accidents that I have been in, and in accidents that other riders have, that a little bit of protective gear would prevent a huge amount of pain and expense, treatment and down time.

A little padding, weighing almost nothing, could have prevented any number of broken hips or femurs, broken wrists, and broken arms.

The padding can be made easily from closed cell foam pads.

Many downhill racing outfits use this system. Closed cell foam is inserted into pockets. It's very simple to do, and can be done at home. If the pockets have open or partially open tops, it is easy to remove the pads when desired. Velcro attachment systems are also very simple.

Even limited, ventilated padding, well placed, only over the most injury-prone areas, would go a long way in preventing and reducing injuries.

I think the questions on everyone's mind are:

"Just how many watts would I have to put out to get up to mach 3+?"

"Would steel hold up better at mach 3+ than carbon fiber?" "How about aluminum?"

"Would you need Dura Ace breaks to slow down?"

I think the questions on everyone's mind are:

"Just how many watts would I have to put out to get up to mach 3+?"

"Would steel hold up better at mach 3+ than carbon fiber?" "How about aluminum?"

"Would you need Dura Ace breaks to slow down?"

The SR-71 is mostly Ti, and no carbon fiber. Steel would melt at such speed/temps.

Sorry, the plane geek in me couldn't resist.

I can't help but wonder, what does pie taste like at mach 3?

I think you're point about padding has merit. If I were downhill racing, I'd be wearing as much as I could get on. For commuting, a helmet and weather appropriate clothing feels like enough protection.

I refuse to accept that fact that crashes are inevitable. I simply refuse.

I think the questions on everyone's mind are:

"Just how many watts would I have to put out to get up to mach 3+?"

"Would steel hold up better at mach 3+ than carbon fiber?" "How about aluminum?"

"Would you need Dura Ace breaks to slow down?"

good one :D

If the SR-71 were a bicycle, there would be a few things about it.

1) It would be made by Felt
2) It would leak a lot until you got warmed up
3) There would only be a hand full of them in the world
4) There would be a Russian bicycle made specifically to go as fast
5) We wouldn't have known about it until it was nearly obsolete
6) It would complete the Furnace Creek 508 in about 15 minutes.

I can't help but wonder, what does pie taste like at mach 3?

I've wondered this myself.


I refuse to accept that fact that crashes are inevitable. I simply refuse.

I agree. But what if?

Wearing some extra protective gear doesn't mean that you accept them as inevitable (necessarily at least). More like 'just in case'. Same with helmet.

There is a danger of accepting some kind of autosuggestion along with it (along with the helmet or some kind of other protection), and saying, or accepting the idea, 'ok I'm going to crash, I might as well be prepared.'

It could be a variety of other ideas -- 'It probably won't happen, but on the off chance that someone is having a stroke at just the wrong time behind the wheel of a car (or is experiencing some kind of lapse of consciousness (it happens))...'

Probably there are many better ideas that could accompany it. There's certainly a lot of scope in that area.

***
I just find it a little puzzling. Roller bladers routinely wear more protection. Their falls and accidents are usually less awkward, at lower speeds, from lower heights, and are less likely to involve motor vehicles.

Cyclists could certainly do something similar, and there are many design possibilities, including simple, inexpensive and light weight ones.

Closed cell foam sounds too much like wearing a wetsuit while riding. In 90 degree+ summer temperatures I don't see this as being a good idea.

Closed cell foam sounds too much like wearing a wetsuit while riding. In 90 degree+ summer temperatures I don't see this as being a good idea.

I was thinking more along the lines of spot padding. Some of the downhill suits have patches of foam. Spot padding could be similar, but more limited -- protecting key areas.

The pads could be light and perforated, and allow for airflow.

Helmets have evolved quite a bit in this regard. (Pictures of helmets from the 70s (there are probably some of these pictures on the web) show how much hotter those were for warm summer rides....)

Padding could do something similar.

The lightness and airiness could also vary according to need, since riding conditions vary quite a bit.

If the SR-71 were a bicycle, there would be a few things about it.

1) It would be made by Felt
2) It would leak a lot until you got warmed up
3) There would only be a hand full of them in the world
4) There would be a Russian bicycle made specifically to go as fast
5) We wouldn't have known about it until it was nearly obsolete
6) It would complete the Furnace Creek 508 in about 15 minutes.

7) regardless of pilot quality and training, once in a while things can happen

I was thinking more along the lines of spot padding. Some of the downhill suits have patches of foam. Spot padding could be similar, but more limited -- protecting key areas.

The pads could be light and perforated, and allow for airflow.

Helmets have evolved quite a bit in this regard. (Pictures of helmets from the 70s (there are probably some of these pictures on the web) show how much hotter those were for warm summer rides....)

Padding could do something similar.

The lightness and airiness could also vary according to need, since riding conditions vary quite a bit.

That's just it though, where are you going to put it? On the rider's hips and shoulders? That's about the only place that is covered by fabric on a rider in any temperature over 65 degrees. I've fallen over maybe twice on a bicycle through years of riding and all of the falls were because I stopped and lost my balance and couldn't unclip in time. I don't want to jinx myself of course. ;)

I've fallen a few more times while mountain biking but I gave that up years ago. Mountain biking is too dangerous and I think you're much more likely to injure yourself doing that than road riding.

Well, technically the SR-71 is a trike and thus belongs in the recubent forum. However, the U-2 with it's bicycle landing gear configuration would acceptable here, providing of course that one commutes in one on occassion.

So we would look more ridiculous than we do now? Do we really need more lumpy spandex?

A large number of injuries can be entirely avoided with simple, light protective gear. Many fractures just wouldn't happen.

Here is a great example of surviving an accident that would otherwise have been much worse,

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FYsMli570K8

Some of those chunks streaking along during the disintegration of the SR are human bodies. The pilot and the LCO.

I read a detailed account of another SR-71 disintegration. It was written by the pilot. Many people, including the pilot himself, could not believe that he lived through it; but with the right outfit it is amazing how well one can survive.

[Before getting back to bikes, in case anyone is interested in what is going on in this video -- besides some very interesting designs -- these craft, the SR-71 mothership and the drone that is separating from it, are traveling at very high speeds (mach 3+). The first two separations work out. After the third separation, the drone has problems as it lifts off and moves up into the shock waves around it. It falls back into the SR-71, causing the SR to pitch up. At those extreme speeds, pitching up means disintegration.]

Hope some of you enjoyed this clip.

Back to bikes:

I keep noticing, both in the accidents that I have been in, and in accidents that other riders have, that a little bit of protective gear would prevent a huge amount of pain and expense, treatment and down time.

A little padding, weighing almost nothing, could have prevented any number of broken hips or femurs, broken wrists, and broken arms.

The padding can be made easily from closed cell foam pads.

Many downhill racing outfits use this system. Closed cell foam is inserted into pockets. It's very simple to do, and can be done at home. If the pockets have open or partially open tops, it is easy to remove the pads when desired. Velcro attachment systems are also very simple.

Even limited, ventilated padding, well placed, only over the most injury-prone areas, would go a long way in preventing and reducing injuries.
huh? the commuting forum?

I don't race down mountains to get to work.

And nobody should have to dress themselves up like an armadillo just to ride.

From the few falls I've had, the hands and knees are where I landed. Bike gloves takes care of one. I think kneepads would get uncomfortable with the amount of movement you have in riding.

I think it'd be possible to have knee pads. Think "knee warmers" in the winter. Short spandex tubes that cover your legs. Now add a little bit of padding to the outside of each leg (since bicyclists would tend toward falling to one side, rather than directly on a kneecap like rollerbladers).

I do wear gloves. I'm not sure I'd wear knee pads. I think a big difference is that on a bike, you're mostly in danger of road rash (assuming a minor enough accident that some slight padding would help). On rollerblades, you're looking at a much greater potential for broken kneecaps.

I think because we are people who rely on ourselves, our own power, and bikes as primary transportation, we do prepare for many inevitabilites. But certainly to varying degrees depeding on the individual, and their abilities and their willingness to accept risks.

I think most folks try to carry some water, a pump, tubes, lights, basic tools, things that will ensure a relatively safe and successful journey. Proper clothing and helmets are certainly part of that equation as well. Then there are some who feel the need to be even further prepared and are carry things like weapons (yikes!). It's about what you are comfortable with and perhaps some might find more protective clothing useful if it were available. I don't think I would, but that's me.

On the other hand, Is it possible that padding enhanced clothing could be a marketable item that might help folks get into cycling? Perhaps people who are wanting to get into cycling, but for whatever reason feel the inherent dangers from crashing to be more than they are willing to accept. Maybe there is a market for it? The big bike companies are always looking for ways to entice more folks into the sport and there certainly seems to be an abundance of people out there who are afraid of bikes. Maybe this would help, who knows?

In this same vein:
A woman called in to a car talk show I listen to & was complaining that her safety engineer husband made her & their kids wear helmets while riding in the family car. Host conceded they were no doubt safer but understood why the teen aged kids were rebelling over dad's rule. Fashion & style probably means not many takers for the added safety of protective clothing. Don

there's a rider in seattle that commutes in a freeride compression suit. he's been doing it for years.

maybe he can modify it to be a wearable tent and sleeping system so he doesn't have to bring anything else for bike touring :D

I think because we are people who rely on ourselves, our own power, and bikes as primary transportation, we do prepare for many inevitabilites. But certainly to varying degrees depeding on the individual, and their abilities and their willingness to accept risks.

I think most folks try to carry some water, a pump, tubes, lights, basic tools, things that will ensure a relatively safe and successful journey. Proper clothing and helmets are certainly part of that equation as well. Then there are some who feel the need to be even further prepared and are carry things like weapons (yikes!). It's about what you are comfortable with and perhaps some might find more protective clothing useful if it were available. I don't think I would, but that's me.

On the other hand, Is it possible that padding enhanced clothing could be a marketable item that might help folks get into cycling? Perhaps people who are wanting to get into cycling, but for whatever reason feel the inherent dangers from crashing to be more than they are willing to accept. Maybe there is a market for it? The big bike companies are always looking for ways to entice more folks into the sport and there certainly seems to be an abundance of people out there who are afraid of bikes. Maybe this would help, who knows?

I think most people who are concerned with their own safety on a bicycle are more afraid of being hit by a car than of crashing on their own. Padded shorts and jerseys aren't going to offer jack if you get mowed down by some idiot in an SUV.

I used to wear Crash Pads undershorts when I rode a lot of off-road back in college or was out doing things like high-speed stair descents or loading-dock jumps. I also wore elbow/forearm and knee/shin guards. At the relatively low speeds I'd be impacting something, and the high probability I'd be impacting something, it made sense.
Commuting, for me, is a low probability of impact event. If I'm involved in a crash, it's most likely to be with a vehicle and there's little I can do to reduce the severity of that impact. Helmet, gloves, and proper gear for the weather; that's what I go with.

I think most people who are concerned with their own safety on a bicycle are more afraid of being hit by a car than of crashing on their own. Padded shorts and jerseys aren't going to offer jack if you get mowed down by some idiot in an SUV.


to be honest though, ive seen about a dozen cyclists hit by cars, including some SUV's and they would have been much much helped by this kind of protective gear from what I had seen, as most of their injuries were mostly superficial impacts in the areas the OP describes.

That being said, it takes a LOT to get people to wear protective gear and for it to overcome the fashion angle, I dont really see it happening.

The cuts and scrapes are cool, chicks dig body damage

The cuts and scrapes are cool, chicks dig body damage

Chicks, maybe, but this woman prefers undamaged goods.

How about something like an airbag vest, like in that one commercial I saw once where the guy was falling down then the vest automatically inflated around him to save his life. That would be more practical, though still fictional. Lightweight, windresistant, water proof, reflective and an airbag. Maybe PI will come up with it.

I was thinking more along the lines of spot padding. Some of the downhill suits have patches of foam. Spot padding could be similar, but more limited -- protecting key areas.

The pads could be light and perforated, and allow for airflow.

Helmets have evolved quite a bit in this regard. (Pictures of helmets from the 70s (there are probably some of these pictures on the web) show how much hotter those were for warm summer rides....)

Padding could do something similar.

The lightness and airiness could also vary according to need, since riding conditions vary quite a bit.


I don't think foam would be worth much...have you ever hit asphalt at a high rate of speed? It would grind through most foam padding in short order.

I was riding 40 mph down a winding canyon road last February when I got sideswiped by a trailer (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=270492&page=3) and put on the ground. The only thing I think might have helped would have been some Kevlar fabric on the top (knuckle area) of my gloves...that might have saved me 15 stitches in my right hand. Some similar Kevlar inserts on the left hip area of my shorts might have prevented some road rash there.

But, who's going to design that stuff in, and how hot would it be in the summer? And how much would it cost? And how well would it actually work?

Bottom line...probably not worth it, except for downhill mountain bike racers.

>>> what does pie taste like at mach 3?

REALLY fast pie!!! MmmmmArrrghh. . .fast pie.

to be honest though, ive seen about a dozen cyclists hit by cars, including some SUV's and they would have been much much helped by this kind of protective gear from what I had seen, as most of their injuries were mostly superficial impacts....

I was hit by an SUV myself, and almost broke my hip. There are a couple of guys on this thread who would have been saved a whole lot of trouble by some small, simple, inexpensive padding: http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=282951

Floyd Landis' (severe) hip problems would have been prevented.

There are many injuries that would be prevented.

***
That's not to say that there aren't some cases in which the padding would not work, just as there are cases in which helmets will not work. No matter how good the helmet, there are impacts that will overcome the protection.

But there are many other cases in which the protection provided by the helmet will help.

Same with padding.

^^^
Maybe, maybe not.

Helmets are designed to meet published impact test standards. For "padding" to be useful, it would need to meet similar criteria for its ability to absorb shock, resist abrasion, etc.

^

It all depends on the design and the impact.

Some designs will give more protection, and protect against more impacts.

Others will give less protection, and protect against fewer impacts, but still protect against some of them.

Same with helmets -- there are always some impacts that are not covered.

Whether helmets give more or less protection: it depends on the helmet design and the padding design.

Nothing is going to protect against everything; but many (reasonably good) designs will protect against a substantial number and range of impacts.

How about something like an airbag vest, like in that one commercial I saw once where the guy was falling down then the vest automatically inflated around him to save his life. That would be more practical, though still fictional. Lightweight, windresistant, water proof, reflective and an airbag....

Airbags -- yes. I was thinking about this possibility too, before reading your posting.

It's very easy to dismiss this idea as impractical or improbable (or _________); but the more you think about it, the more it looks like a real possibility, and even a very good one.

They are surprisingly effective. The technology has been already been well developed for other applications. They can be made to be very light weight. (Maybe there are some readers from the aerospace or automotive industries who can provide more information?)

They were chosen (from many other options) by NASA engineers, and seem to be the method of choice when dropping in on other planets,

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8sSVqdZ2_KA

(the airbag inflation occurs at about 03:21 into the clip. The impact with the planet begins at about 03:29. This segment of the video illustrates some of the possibilities...these things really work, and work well.)

Even small airbags could protect key areas of the body.

***
And it might even be possible to come up with a design (even though it may initially seem somewhat impractical) that would cover the whole body:

[will insert link to the video clip here, when I find the one I have in mind (does anyone know the one I mean -- I think it might have appeared in a W. Allen film...)]

A full-body airbag.

I like it.

***
I truly believe that one could survive even multiple impacts by cars this way.

[I have such a vivid picture of this in mind -- maybe someone can find that link....]

Just what I want strapped to my body...heavy and hot, with built-in explosive charges for deployment. :eek:

The new pejorative would be : Inflato-Fred. :rolleyes:


FWIW, Honda has recently introduced air bags for some of their top end motorcycles, but the only provide frontal protection. Given the much higher speeds of motorcycles, and the fact that weight is not as much of an issue for them, perhaps they could benefit from something like an air bag. But for bikes...it's probably another one of those "sounds like a good idea" that turns out to be impractical in the real world.

..."sounds like a good idea"...

Wait until you see the other link. You might just see it in a different light.

***
Does anyone know the cost per pound of sending something to Mars?

I found link to a .pdf that covers the concept for "personal airbags". It looks interesting and complete with some pics. Cost and weight looks to be the biggest barriers.

http://www.iatselocalone.org/safety/Sineonov.pdf

http://www.iatselocalone.org/safety/Sineonov.pdf

Great link -- thanks for that one.

Under a hundred bucks for one of them. I didn't know these were being made.
Some very impressive possibilities here.

I was just involved in an accident----well, I was hit by a truck. My injuries were to my butt, calf, and ankle. No amount of padding would have helped. I'm sure a cyclist could wear elbow pads of some sort, but I think knee pads would become irritating very very quickly.

Re: 90+ degrees: Most of my riding is in far lower temperatures. Some of the towns I've lived in rarely or never reach 90. Most of the year, in those that do sometimes reach 90, it is far cooler.

It depends a lot on where you live and where and when you ride.

For some riders and conditions, extra warmth would be just fine.

Pads can be designed to be fairly cool, and to allow air circulation.

When riding in truly hot conditions, one could go without, or with minimal (which is what most people do anyway)(with a helmet).

***
Re: accidents in which padding or protective clothing won't help: That can always happen. It doesn't mean that they are useless. There are many other accidents in which they can help -- same as with helmets.

***
It seems like everyone has the choice of where to draw the line. For some people, even helmets are out. For others, it's helmets only. For others, helmets and good padded gloves. For others, add in one or more additional danger zone protections.

***
If I had kids, I would have them wearing helmets that had extra protection. Perhaps full-face BMX or downhill helmets, season and weather allowing.

If I were equipping an elderly relative or friend, I would have some well-tailored hip pads (hip injuries are a major problem past a certain age), perhaps invisibly worn in pockets inside loosely fitting clothing. And perhaps some other padding as well. The head is not the only danger zone.

Even injuries that are not fatal can still be extremely pesky, drawn out, and expensive, involving multiple surgeries and lifelong consequences. There are other threads that give some details of actual cases, including some members from this relatively small group of riders and BF participants. Other websites have them too.

***
There was a time when helmets were more or less ignored.

Realistically, you can ride with this gear right now if you want to. Go to a DH mtb site, or buy motorcycle specific under-armor- t-pro leggings plus a 661 pressure suit should fit the bill. Throw in a full-face helmet while you're at it, and a set of heavy hiking boots or DH clipless shoes.

t-pro (http://www.forcefieldbodyarmour.co.uk/pro_pants.asp)
pressure suit (http://www.sixsixone.com/Catalog_661Bike.aspx?id=440dec65-6414-4695-b371-d25023314467&product=fc78bfa3-0d83-43ab-a28a-1b570ed58654)

The reason that people don't do this now:

1) To work properly, the armor has to stay in place during a crash, which means that it needs to be firmly strapped to your body. This leads to serious abrasion during the constant motion of bicycling.

2) It gets really smelly, really fast. Ever been near a set of used hocky pads? Enough said. You'd have to have several sets of armor if you commute, and it's a difficut and time consuming to effectively wash it. I have a hard enough time keeping my gloves and helmet sanitary with daily use.

3) It's expensive. For a quality set, you're looking at a couple of hundred dollars.

4) It's really hot. I sweat during rides even in light road clothing at 70 degrees. The inside of mtb armor quicly turns into a swamp during a ride.

5) It takes time to change in and out of. The time i save by bike commuting would be consumed putting on, securing, and changing out of the armor.

The thing to remember with the airbag: you're wearing a bunch of big rubber bags covered in cordura. There's not going to be any way to make that lightweight or breathable. Triggering is also an issue.

to be honest though, ive seen about a dozen cyclists hit by cars, including some SUV's and they would have been much much helped by this kind of protective gear from what I had seen, as most of their injuries were mostly superficial impacts in the areas the OP describes.

That being said, it takes a LOT to get people to wear protective gear and for it to overcome the fashion angle, I dont really see it happening.

You might as well argue with Harley riders about wearing a helmet. :D

BTW-I also ride a motorcycle and I wear a full face helmet, a motorcycle specific jacket with elbow/shoulder protection, gloves and motorcycle specific shoes (Sidi in fact ;) ) to protect my ankles. I have never gone down on a motorcycle (touch wood) and the only accidents I've had on a bicycle have been because of minor mistakes on my part (touch wood again).

Basically, I live my life as I want because I enjoy it. I do what I can to prevent injury but I don't worry too much about the things that I have no control over because it doesn't do me a damned bit of good. We're all going to die sometime and nobody knows when that will happen.

I'd rather live my life doing the things I enjoy...and I'm not a big risk taker...not in my mind anyway.

Hell, my boss just lost her husband to cancer this year (he was in his late 40s). Personally, I'd rather go out on a motorcycle or a bicycle.

plane geek, the skin temp at mach is only 600 degrees,steels will not melt at that temp,,