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Found an older Lippy tandem in excellent condition and was wondering if anyone would have an idea of what a decent purchase price would be.
It's a 7speed with 135mm spacing, Sachs Ergos w/Sachs rear derail, double sided rear Bullseye sealed hubs, Specialized cranks and Shimano brakes.
I live in Oregon and am familiar with Lippy as a builder but have never seen one of his tandems before today. The workmanship is excellent with beautiful fillet brazing. I did a quick Google search looking for more info and it was sparse at beat.
I'm thinking this would be the perfect starter bike for a someone if the price was right.
We already have 2 "modern" tandems but it's hard for me to pass up a good bike deal be it a single or another tandem.
Anyone own a Lippy or have any insight?
Also, any rider doing the Monster Cookie Metric Century in Salem Oregon next weekend? If so please let me know.
Thanks
KRhea
PortlandVelo.net
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A Lippy tandem is a work of art. Have seen only two; his tandems are a bit rare. If it fits, I'd suggest in the $1,000 +/- range.
Zona, thanks for the info.
KRhea
This one?
http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/bik/315873851.html
Lippy is a very good builder and that is one heck of a bicycle for the money. If it fits, I would go for it. It would be interesting for some feedback between that bicycle and your "modern tandems" I think you may like it.
Dave Bohm
That'd be the one! He and I are currently exchanging emails. I figure at that price it would be worth to purchase and upgrade to current components from the boxes of parts in the garage.
Thanks for comments fellas.
KRhea
PortlandVelo.net
That'd be the one!
It would appear that you have already found the seller's asking price to be reasonable so I will only offer a comment for other's who come across older tandems that are of interest.
IMHO, unless your pockets are deep enough to allow all sorts of discretionary acquisitions, or if there's a real desire to start a collection of older hand-built tandems, bear in mind what it is you're really buying and why when considering the purchase of an older tandem.
Unless you're willing to use the bike equipped as is with what was state of the art when it was produced refreshing an old frame takes a lot of time, effort, and usually more cash than we care to admit to our spouses. Mind you, there's noting wrong with vintage equipment. Single speeds still work fine, as do 3 speeds, 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 and 9 speeds. In fact, Peter Matthews of Dublin, Ireland and Gary Sanderson, of Verona, NJ, spent two months on a pair of 1880's vintage ordinary bikes (high wheelers) covering some 3,500 miles while riding from Perth Amboy, NJ, to Newport, OR, back in 2004. (http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/americanjourneys/sanderson_matthews/default.asp)
Case in point: Keith Lippy's tandems are nice examples of what was at the time some of the interesting design concepts and construction methods in use at the time any given frame was build, e.g., some use up-tube designs, ovalized tubes show up in different places, and I believe they were all fillet-brazed. "Soft" colors also seemed to be a constant with at least three Lippy's that three different friends / acquaintances have owned.
However, as the frames get older they get heavier with no real benefit in terms of stiffness, the stoker compartments usually get smaller, and older components are just that. Often times, if the bikes were ridden, they only work because both the rear cogsets and chains have been worn out together and replacing either one will dictate replacing both ($$) and most likely the chainrings too ($$). Timing rings can usually be used as-is with worn-out chains but, again, putting on a new chain will require flipping the rings or new ones. Add another $20 for handlebar tape, $30 for new cables and cable housing, etc... and before you know it you can end up sinking twice as much into that "great deal" which, in retrospect, isn't all that great of a deal anymore... unless you REALLY had a special reason to possess THAT particular frame. None of this is to suggest that older tandems won't afford a wonderful ride: even a Schwinn Town & Country can be fun to ride. However, there's a reason that tubing has continued to evolve as has most other components that, in aggregate, define how well a bike will perform in all but the least demanding conditions. So, by all means, if you're so inclined to collect the classics for all the things that make them classic, do so with gusto.
Again, for collectors and enthusiasts with the time and/or resources needed to obtain and restore older components or to invest in "updating" a bike to something a bit more current that what it came with, knock yourselves out. However, if you don't fit into that category get your Excel spreadsheet fired up and start running some numbers and verifying that what you have in your parts box will work before making an offer on a "classic" so that you can go into with your eyes wide open on what it will cost to achieve your vision for your acquisition. Frankly, for what the seller is offering, that's not a bad deal... if you leave it as it or truly have all the components needed to bring it up to 8 or 9 speed.
Just something for others to consider as collecting and restoring bikes is not really all that different than cars or motorcycles: do it out of love because you'll rarely get your time and money back out if you ever feel compelled to part with it.
While 'modern' tandems do differ a bit from older bikes it sounds as if KRhea already has a couple nice modern tandems and appreciates great workmanship and maybe the challenge of an updating project.
Like the Mona Lisa is an 'older' painting, I would prefer it to Warhalls modern 'Soupcans'!
A chacun son gout!
Like the Mona Lisa is an 'older' painting, I would prefer it to Warhalls modern 'Soupcans'!
Even Keith would get a chuckle from that analogy...
The short version is that older tandems can be just as much fun to ride as new ones. You don't need the latest hot-zoot plastic to have a good time. My wife and I have one of those Lippy tandems and it is a fine ride. We have ridden with many other teams and our bike always gets the most attention--no matter what else shows up, just because of its exquisite workmanship. That doesn't make the bike ride better but, as a former bike mechanic, I gain significant satisfaction from riding such a beautiful artisan machine. We're usually in front of everyone else, as well. The ride of this tandem is wonderful. It is comfortable, yet rigid and a great climber; something we get lots of practice with up here in Vermont. The Sachs/Campy - Shimano 7-spd setup provides good gear spacing and excellent shifting, even under load. This is a great tandem that has done a lot up here in the north country to convince others that long bikes are not necessarily slow up the hills.
Forget the spreadsheet. If you find an older tandem, setup well and at a good price, give it a spin and buy it if you like it. You can get a really nice older machine for the cost of a cheap new one. The biggest issue is size. Most non-custom tandems are already a compromise in sizing, as manufacturers and dealers cannot afford to offer stock frames that will fit all teams. There's no choice at all in sizing on a used bike, other than to pass it by. As the previous poster noted, the stoker top tube tends to get pretty short on bikes built before the mid 1980s. Equally important is stoker seat tube length. Most stokers prefer a shock-absorbing seat post, which requires a few inches of space, at minimum. Quality index shifting is also a must. I would prefer 8-speeds, but have no problem living with 7. The problem with 9 and 10 speed systems is that most cassettes give you the extra cogs where you don't really need them. Athletic tandem teams can push really tall gears at times, but having an 11-12-13 is pretty useless, in my book. You might as well just have the 13.
Just remember that older tandems have very poor resale value. Still, most tandems really don't get that much use, making older tandems with very low miles a common find. You can pick up an older Santana or other quality tandem in like-new condition for significantly under $1,000. There are limitations on what you can do to retrofit them, mostly due to the changes in rear spacing, but you can often find modern road or mountain components that will fit. Prices on older components may seem expensive, until you compare them with those of new components. Nothing quality is cheap these days. Between Craig's List and eBay, you can find anything these days, if you are patient.
So, don't be afraid of an older tandem, especially if you are just starting out. If you like riding long bikes, you can always upgrade and your experience will inform what you are looking for in a new machine. I've hung on to my older tandems to introduce others to the sport (there are no tandem shops nearby) and to use as foul-weather bikes. If you purchase wisely, you should be able to get your money back on resale.
We wholeheartedly agree with the above assessment on many older tandems.
Most tandems have sat around collecting dust in someone's garage or get ridden a couple hundred miles now and then.
We sold our '93 custom short-wheelbased (63 1/2") Co-Motion over 3 years ago to a very happy, well-fitting couple for $1100. Our tandem had not 'sat around' but had 57,000 miles on the odo. We informed the couple of that mileage, although they had not asked that crucial question. It was in excellent condition both mechanically and the cosmetically and custom paint job still looked great.
Spotted them last year pedaling on the El Tour de Tucson, and they're still lovin' it.
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
Does anyone have any comments on the suitability of a Lippy tandem for a heavier Clydesdale/Athena couple, new to tandems? The wheels can and will always be a weak point but I am asking specifically about the frame and tubing. Did Lippy use a variety of tubing to match his individual customers or was there commonality in his tandem frame materials? Does the ovalized top tube make much difference from a conventional round top tube? Does the longer length of many of the Lippy tandem frames make for greater weight bearing capacity? Would a Lippy even be worth our consideration? Thanks in advance for your thoughts!
Most vintage tandems had 40 or 48 spoke wheels; plenty sturdy for clyde/athena duo.
Frame also should be A-OK.
Had a couple (he 330lbs/she 180+ lbs) buy our 1975 Follis which is a French production tandem. No issues.
They were hard riders . . . they were the best team to draft for at least the first 25 miles . . . what a windbreak!
Does anyone have any comments on the suitability of a Lippy tandem for a heavier Clydesdale/Athena couple, new to tandems? The wheels can and will always be a weak point but I am asking specifically about the frame and tubing. Did Lippy use a variety of tubing to match his individual customers or was there commonality in his tandem frame materials? Does the ovalized top tube make much difference from a conventional round top tube? Does the longer length of many of the Lippy tandem frames make for greater weight bearing capacity? Would a Lippy even be worth our consideration? Thanks in advance for your thoughts!
We knew of at least one super-Clydesdale captain with a petite stoker who put many, many miles on their Lippy and it never flinched. The ovalized tubes were used to provide additional lateral stiffness while still allowing for some veritical compliance for comfort and can be found on Erickson, Lippy, Rodriquez, and perhaps a few other Pacific Northwest builder's tandems. The longer length simply provides the stoker with more room and is, again, something of a Pacific Northwest tandem feature. Lippy's are outstanding examples of hand-built custom steel tandems.
Best way to get specific info on this Lippy is to ask the owner for the serial number and then to contact Keith or his wife Pat. I believe this web page may have their current contact info: http://www.all-oregon.com/city/salem/recreation.htm
TandemGeek, I'm curious how big/tall that super-Clydesdale captain may be? Have they since moved up to a custom bike? I noticed your comment in an earlier thread that long bikes are not that common. Were you speaking of longer lengths in the wheelbase as well or were you focused on the top tube lengths? Is TT length the primary criteria for front cockpit and rear compartment size with seat tube length of secondary influence? So the ovalized tubes allowed the longer top tubes to have more lateral stiffness. Not sure I understand the vertical compliance reference. Thanks!
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