Professional Cycling For the Fans - Landis just tested positive...again.

Doesn't look to good for Landis. He just tested positive again. And his lawyers & PR crew have their hands full now. Not only did Landis test positive again, but now they gotta figure out how they can keep him from putting his foot into his mouth all over again. Remember all the multiple and different excuses right after he first tested positive? Then, with advice from his lawyers he settled on one excuse. Now, it's not looking good at all. They just had him on TV and they asked him why the 2nd samples (B samples) came back positive today. Turn to ESPN. It's linked on the homepage and they might show a clip on it later tonite. Anyway, he didn't even answer the question. He just flatly stated that it was a violation of his rights to have the B sample tested, or some crappo like that.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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I feel so horribly for Landis. He rode such a great Tour and for this to happen is just so unfortunate. I sincerely wish the guy nothing but the best, but I don't think he's ever going to recover from this. For an entire team to go down along with the career of an obviously great cyclist over a little bit of testosterone is just ludicrous. Maybe Big Pharma can figure out a way to beat the isotope test, lol.

I am stunned, I never saw this coming.

I am stunned, I never saw this coming.

You gotta to be kidding!

How is it possible that all of his "A" samples could have tested negative and all his "B" samples tested positive. This is not possible if they have used valid and consistent testing procedures. Because it is saying that all the "A" tests were wrong and all the "B" sample tests were right. This is not valid logic. It only shows that the testing is bad or being manipulated.

This is not possible with good science. Either they have changed the testing procedure for the "B" samples or the "B" samples were spiked, or they specifically followed the same faulty test procedure they used for the stage 17 positive test result. The last option is I believe what they have done. Hence not allowing Landis's representatives to observe. This lab and the USADA and WADA are dirty, period.

You gotta to be kidding!
I am

He just flatly stated that it was a violation of his rights to have the B sample tested, or some crappo like that.

It's not crap (or whatever "crappo" actually is). According to WADA protocols he is allowed to have his representative present during the re-test. The lab refused to allow his rep into the building and "tested" it anyway.

Besides, the reliability of the isotope test has never been established (unless you listen the guy that invented it; he thinks it's faultless).

This is looking more and more like a railroad job.

LNDD re-tested, do you actually think they are going to come back anything but positive?

How is it possible that all of his "A" samples could have tested negative and all his "B" samples tested positive. This is not possible if they have used valid and consistent testing procedures. Because it is saying that all the "A" tests were wrong and all the "B" sample tests were right. This is not valid logic. It only shows that the testing is bad or being manipulated.

Are you serious? If all his A samples had tested negative, we wouldn't be talking about this right now.

Floyd's A sample after stage 17 tripped the t/e ratio test, and so was tested for exogenous testosterone. That test showed he had testosterone in his body that wasn't his. So, they tested the B sample, and it showed the same thing, an elevated t/e ratio and exogenous testosterone. Floyd's A samples from after stage 17 never tripped the t/e ratio test, so were never tested further for exogenous testosterone. A couple of weeks ago, the USADA stepped in and asked for the B samples to be tested, and, if we believe the current reports, they turned up positive for exogenous testosterone as well.

The amount of misinformation flying around about Floyd's case is just stunning. You can read what has happened so far here:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/aug06/aug05news2

Oh dear god! Floyd needs to just stop talking to the media because he is not making himself look good at all. They just had him on ESPN again on a show called Cold Pizza. The reporter asks him how does he explain the new test results. Again, he avoids the question, and rambles about leakages of the results to the press, invasion of his privacy, etc. but still does not answer the question. I really think his legal team is going about this the wrong way. If team Landis has instructed him not to answer direct questions, he needs to stop talking to the media and keep his defense to written prepared answers. This is all on ESPN's website. Click the video player and search through latest videos for the Cold Pizza show, Landis denies doping allegations.

Oh dear god! Floyd needs to just stop talking to the media because he is not making himself look good at all. They just had him on ESPN again on a show called Cold Pizza. The reporter asks him how does he explain the new test results. Again, he avoids the question, and rambles about leakages of the results to the press, invasion of his privacy, etc. but still does not answer the question. I really think his legal team is going about this the wrong way. If team Landis has instructed him not to answer direct questions, he needs to stop talking to the media and keep his defense to written prepared answers. This is all on ESPN's website. Click the video player and search through latest videos for the Cold Pizza show, Landis denies doping allegations.

The guy's pathetic :o Thanks for the link, though.:)

How is it possible that all of his "A" samples could have tested negative and all his "B" samples tested positive. This is not possible if they have used valid and consistent testing procedures. Because it is saying that all the "A" tests were wrong and all the "B" sample tests were right. This is not valid logic. It only shows that the testing is bad or being manipulated.

This is not possible with good science. Either they have changed the testing procedure for the "B" samples or the "B" samples were spiked, or they specifically followed the same faulty test procedure they used for the stage 17 positive test result. The last option is I believe what they have done. Hence not allowing Landis's representatives to observe. This lab and the USADA and WADA are dirty, period.

Because from what I understand, this time they specific looked for "synthetic" testosterone. The first test was just to check the ratio. I think the major finding now, and the biggest hurdle for Floyd to ovecome is why the "B" samples show a synthetic substance. Just my take.

Because from what I understand, this time they specific looked for "synthetic" testosterone. The first test was just to check the ratio. I think the major finding now, and the biggest hurdle for Floyd to ovecome is why the "B" samples show a synthetic substance. Just my take.

You just hate America. :D :D

Are you serious? If all his A samples had tested negative, we wouldn't be talking about this right now.

Floyd's A sample after stage 17 tripped the t/e ratio test, and so was tested for exogenous testosterone. That test showed he had testosterone in his body that wasn't his. So, they tested the B sample, and it showed the same thing, an elevated t/e ratio and exogenous testosterone. Floyd's A samples from after stage 17 never tripped the t/e ratio test, so were never tested further for exogenous testosterone. A couple of weeks ago, the USADA stepped in and asked for the B samples to be tested, and, if we believe the current reports, they turned up positive for exogenous testosterone as well.

The amount of misinformation flying around about Floyd's case is just stunning. You can read what has happened so far here:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/aug06/aug05news2


Sorry for not being more specific. But I was talking about the other TDF samples other than stage 17. Those are the ones they re-tested.

Somehow I forgot that the tests on the "B" samples used the radio isotope test. Still it is suspicious that the LNDD lab was told to not let in Floyds representative. We can only conclude they were afraid of being made to look incompetent.

Sorry for not being more specific. But I was talking about the other TDF samples other than stage 17. Those are the ones they re-tested.

Somehow I forgot that the tests on the "B" samples used the radio isotope test. Still it is suspicious that the LNDD lab was told to not let in Floyds representative. We can only conclude they were afraid of being made to look incompetent.


In this situation I think it would be inapporpriate to allow Landis team into the lab to oversee the testing. The circus atmosphere and finger pointing that resulted would prevent the lab technicians from carrying about their job. The also did not allow the USADA (US Anti-Doping Agency) in the lab as well. You don't see them crying foul/.

In this situation I think it would be inapporpriate to allow Landis team into the lab to oversee the testing. The circus atmosphere and finger pointing that resulted would prevent the lab technicians from carrying about their job. The also did not allow the USADA (US Anti-Doping Agency) in the lab as well. You don't see them crying foul/.

No. You don't see the USADA doing jack squat besides kow-towing to WADA.

No. You don't see the USADA doing jack squat besides kow-towing to WADA.


Don't get me wrong. I feel sorry for Landis, but his team is going about this all the wrong way. There is a general premise in legal defense. And that is, the further up sh*t creek you get, the less you need to speak. They really need to have him either come clean or just keep his responses to written answers. BTW, the USADA marches to the beat of their own drum. If anything, WADA and Dick Pound take action based on their recommendation.

LNDD re-tested, do you actually think they are going to come back anything but positive?Whether they are straight up and competent, or not, it certainly presents the appearance of a conflict of interest. And, in the military, we are always taught that the appearance of a conflict of interest is just as condemning as an actual conflict of interest.

I am on the fence, intellectually. But practically, it seems to me that for the same lab to confirm their own tests certainly presents the appearance of a conflict of interest. And then it came out that not only the *same lab* but the *same techs* tested both the A and B samples originally. There's got to be a strong urge to confirm your own results (whether acted upon or not), which IMHO is an actual conflict of interest, not simply the appearance of a conflict of interest. How likely is it that the same tech is going to say, "Oops, sorry, I was wrong. Blame the whole debacle on me" ? The testing procedures, to me, have been hopelessly compromised. But, of course, that's to someone from an "innocent until proven guilty" background. It might look very different to someone from a "guilty until proven innocent" environment. Which *does* seem to describe a great deal of Europe.

Still it is suspicious that the LNDD lab was told to not let in Floyds representative. We can only conclude they were afraid of being made to look incompetent.

Representatives of Landis, who were present at the tests in Paris, have already complained that they were denied access during the testing of two of the American cyclists's samples.
They were only denied access during two of the tests, not all.

If Jesus Christ himself were to return to earth and race in the Tour de France with an American flag on his sleeve, the French would fabricate a way to say he was on performance-enhancing drugs.

Don't get me wrong. I feel sorry for Landis, but his team is going about this all the wrong way. There is a general premise in legal defense. And that is, the further up sh*t creek you get, the less you need to speak. They really need to have him either come clean or just keep his responses to written answers. BTW, the USADA marches to the beat of their own drum. If anything, WADA and Dick Pound take action based on their recommendation.

I agree in general, but not on the specifics here. Floyd had to remain visible because mounting his defense is taking more $$ than he can afford by himself. True, he didn't help himself any initially, but that's water under the bridge.

As for USADA - perhaps in general they wield a lot of influence, but how do they not at least recommend that the samples be re-tested at a different facility? It seems that they're being 100% complacent as Floyd is getting lashed to the tracks. Whether he used substances or not, it certainly seems that his persecutors get to break every rule they feel like breaking with complete impunity. That is not what I consider justice.

I agree in general, but not on the specifics here. Floyd had to remain visible because mounting his defense is taking more $$ than he can afford by himself. True, he didn't help himself any initially, but that's water under the bridge.

As for USADA - perhaps in general they wield a lot of influence, but how do they not at least recommend that the samples be re-tested at a different facility? It seems that they're being 100% complacent as Floyd is getting lashed to the tracks. Whether he used substances or not, it certainly seems that his persecutors get to break every rule they feel like breaking with complete impunity. That is not what I consider justice.


Had this been an Olympic competition, then I think USADA has more say-so since the athletes are in essence representing the USA and wearing the red, white, blue. Pro Cycling is very privatized and the rider rides for an employer. The Tour, while truly an international race, is similar in that regards. Point is USADA has a voice, but this is totally out of their jurisdiction.

I don't agree that Landis needs to take to the media right now. Any attorney will tell a client to just shut up once the sh*t starts hitting the fan. Landis can only hurt his own credibility with their current defense. I think he really needs to seek another opinion because it sounds like his defense team is totally milking his funds dry.

They were only denied access during two of the tests, not all.

Thanks for that clarification. I read an article yesterday on the proceedings but somehow I missed that. In the two articles that I read they just stated that his reps were denied access and the one article said that someone from USADA told LNDD not to let them in.

If Jesus Christ himself were to return to earth and race in the Tour de France with an American flag on his sleeve, the French would fabricate a way to say he was on performance-enhancing drugs.

Jesus Christ wouldn't enter a bike race, in the first place. (If he did he'd be at the rear counseling the slow-pokes)

If he did, wouldn't he easily be able to mask whatever drugs he took to win? :p (If he could turn blood into wine and flesh into bread, that is...)

Seriously, Floyd is no Jesus Christ and Floyd is guilty as SIN ;)

They were only denied access during two of the tests, not all.

Source? Not that I don't trust you, but I want to ba sort of sure and It always seems easy to find the lazy non-detailed sources and hard to find the ones that give important details like this.

BTW this does serve to point out one of the reasons to never trust either camp in an issue like this. The Landis camp has been trying to make it seem that access was denied for all tests.

Were the tests in question the first 2 run? As in the tests run before the US reps showed up?

Landis didn't have an ice cubes chance to begin with.
1) The USADA has had 34 such appeals in the past and the riders are 0 for 34.
2) Re-testing samples already cleared seems to be skewed toward guilty until proved innocent.
3) The USADA never seems to want to trump the WADA.

I personnally don't trust the French lab as far as I could throw them. But the USADA seems to so it doesn't look good for Floyd.

Source?I mentioned the source as Yahoo news. Most detailed news articles mention it e.g.

During a teleconference held on Monday, Landis' attorney Maurice Suh said that their experts sent to oversee proceedings were denied access to certain parts of the testing while USADA officials were given unrestricted access to all areas. "Our observers were not allowed to see critical parts of the analysis," he said. "This is in stark contrast to the fact that USADA's expert - not just their expert, but their lawyer - was present at LNDD. They basically had free reign over the LNDD while our experts did not. The observation of what occurred was one-sided, and that onesidedness was directed by USADA's lawyer."




Were the tests in question the first 2 run? As in the tests run before the US reps showed up?I'm not sure, but I think it was the last two tests (out of seven). And apparently the USADA told the lab to not let Landis' representatives in. The USADA representatives seemed to be present at all the tests.

I am so sick and tired of the Landis whining and his whining 'supporters'. I have no sympathy for him. He made his bed, so now he has to lay in it. But of course, the Landis apologists have come up with some cock-and-bull story of this worldwide conspiracy against, of all people, Floyd Landis - the former Mennonite. Yea right...

The guy cheated and now, only because he has the funds to do so, he's using the old "the best defense is a good offense" approach to get himself off the hook. Regardless of all his stupid stories just after testing positive - the FIRST time.

S***, nobody's guilty of doping offenses, let's just go with that...

I am so sick and tired of the Landis whining and his whining 'supporters'. I have no sympathy for him. He made his bed, so now he has to lay in it. But of course, the Landis apologists have come up with some cock-and-bull story of this worldwide conspiracy against, of all people, Floyd Landis - the former Mennonite. Yea right...

The guy cheated and now, only because he has the funds to do so, he's using the old "the best defense is a good offense" approach to get himself off the hook. Regardless of all his stupid stories just after testing positive - the FIRST time.


+ 10 -- at least :D

I am so sick and tired of the Landis whining and his whining 'supporters'. I have no sympathy for him. He made his bed, so now he has to lay in it. But of course, the Landis apologists have come up with some cock-and-bull story of this worldwide conspiracy against, of all people, Floyd Landis - the former Mennonite. Yea right...

The guy cheated and now, only because he has the funds to do so, he's using the old "the best defense is a good offense" approach to get himself off the hook. Regardless of all his stupid stories just after testing positive - the FIRST time.

S***, nobody's guilty of doping offenses, let's just go with that...



If Landis would've beaten cancer, he too would be innocent.

If Landis would've beaten cancer, he too would be innocent.

THat's probably true.
After all is said and done, one is left to believe that most of Landis' defenders believe him to be innocent by virtue of U.S. citizenship. Somehow, I don't think it will be quite enough. Though it very well might be. The "anti-french" card works pretty well these days. A poor argument, I would say, but it seems to fully satsisfy a great number of souls...

I am so sick and tired of the Landis whining and his whining 'supporters'. I have no sympathy for him. He made his bed, so now he has to lay in it. But of course, the Landis apologists have come up with some cock-and-bull story of this worldwide conspiracy against, of all people, Floyd Landis - the former Mennonite. Yea right...

The guy cheated and now, only because he has the funds to do so, he's using the old "the best defense is a good offense" approach to get himself off the hook. Regardless of all his stupid stories just after testing positive - the FIRST time.

S***, nobody's guilty of doping offenses, let's just go with that...

If there hadn't been the mishaps in the handling, 99% of the Landis supporters would agree he's guilty.

If the USADA had done the subsequent testing at a separate, independant lab and the results were positive...99% of the supporters would agree he's guilty.

But the fact of the matter is that there was some seriously shotty work done that would not have qualified as a positive test if done by other testing centers, and the USADA sent additional samples to the SAME lab to verify their own testing procedures, which smacks of conflict of interest.

I'm pretty darn sure Floyd is guilty, but the sloppy nature of the lab-work and the relative unfairness of this process to ANY of the atheletes unlucky enough to be caught up in it is enough that I hope they do find him not guilty, and put the reason back on the sloppy results of the lab. Perhaps then the labs will straighten out their act, so when the next guilty guy comes through the results stick and there's no question as to the validity of the test.

The bigger issue is not that Floyd doped but that the athletes are treated unfairly by the current testing system. They make such a big deal out of testosterone when for endurance athletes it is only used to aid recovery. The athletes have less freedom than regular citizens, yet they are almost required to dope to be competitive at the most extreme events.

THe way to make grand tours fair is to have the races every other day and test only for drugs which enhance performance in endurance races. Then all athletes will come to each days race in better form and the race will be won more on the merits of the racer than on how well his/her enhanced drug recovery program is working.

If there hadn't been the mishaps in the handling, 99% of the Landis supporters would agree he's guilty.

If the USADA had done the subsequent testing at a separate, independant lab and the results were positive...99% of the supporters would agree he's guilty.

But the fact of the matter is that there was some seriously shotty work done that would not have qualified as a positive test if done by other testing centers, and the USADA sent additional samples to the SAME lab to verify their own testing procedures, which smacks of conflict of interest.

I'm pretty darn sure Floyd is guilty, but the sloppy nature of the lab-work and the relative unfairness of this process to ANY of the atheletes unlucky enough to be caught up in it is enough that I hope they do find him not guilty, and put the reason back on the sloppy results of the lab. Perhaps then the labs will straighten out their act, so when the next guilty guy comes through the results stick and there's no question as to the validity of the test.

Yea, and OJ Simpson was not guilty because of the shoddy lab work, right???????????????????

If Jesus Christ himself were to return to earth and race in the Tour de France with an American flag on his sleeve, the French would fabricate a way to say he was on performance-enhancing drugs.

He was!

Yea, and OJ Simpson was not guilty because of the shoddy lab work, right???????????????????


Right :D

The bigger issue is not that Floyd doped but that the athletes are treated unfairly by the current testing system. They make such a big deal out of testosterone when for endurance athletes it is only used to aid recovery. The athletes have less freedom than regular citizens, yet they are almost required to dope to be competitive at the most extreme events.

THe way to make grand tours fair is to have the races every other day and test only for drugs which enhance performance in endurance races. Then all athletes will come to each days race in better form and the race will be won more on the merits of the racer than on how well his/her enhanced drug recovery program is working.

LOL! Athletes treated unfairly?! Cry me a river!! Since when has LIFE ever been fair for 100% of the people 100% of the time, irrespective whether they're an athlete or not!! They chose their profession of their own free will - if they don't like the playing field, they can get out!! I'm not going for this "cyclists are victims" routine.....Try again....

LOL! Athletes treated unfairly?! Cry me a river!! Since when has LIFE ever been fair for 100% of the people 100% of the time, irrespective whether they're an athlete or not!! They chose their profession of their own free will - if they don't like the playing field, they can get out!! I'm not going for this "cyclists are victims" routine.....Try again....

Well life has never been fair for anyone, but that doesn't mean there isn't something wrong with the system which shouldn't be fixed.

OK, if Floyd is banned is he only banned from international competition or from every sanctioned bike race everywhere.

OK, if Floyd is banned is he only banned from international competition or from every sanctioned bike race everywhere.

The way I understand it, the UCI would take away his international license, and the USCF would take away his domestic license. Of course, no team would want to hire a guy who can't race. That would ban pretty much everything for him. I don't know if he could qualify for the Olympic team or not.

Tyler Hamilton served the same suspension, and he did a bunch of charity rides (his own charity) and the Mt Washington hill climb every year, which is really a timed organized ride. While Frank Vandenbrouke was serving his suspension, he got a fake UCI license and raced small-time crits in Italy at least twice.

I think that ESPN should offer an ESPY award for the best "I didn't dope" act of the year. Landis would be the runaway (no pun intended) winner this year. The award could be presented by David Millar, the rare doper who admits it and takes his punishment like a man.

So I guess Floyd will be able to race some small domestic non-team mountain bike race's or local crits. One's that don't have much in the way of prize money. And one's that don't require a USCF license? I guess if he plans to race in the future he will have to do a few of these to remain competitive.

Do you think that he will retire and trade in his shorts for a suit and continue with this lobbying stuff.

By the way, I just read an article and now Landis's team is saying according to the article that the LNDD lab destroyed all the lab data for the samples after stage 17 before they or the USADA could review the test data.

This smells really bad. So they can now claim that all the "B" samples were positive and no one can verify the results. What is this system, caught in the dark ages. They would not do this unless they had results and lies to cover up otherwise the data would support they're good science.

He was!

:beer:

This smells really bad.

Yeah, the whole thing smells. On one side, you've got American lawyers, and on the other side, French beaurocrats. The whole thing smells like a **** sandwich, and the older it gets, the more it smells.

Yeah, the whole thing smells. On one side, you've got American lawyers, and on the other side, French beaurocrats. The whole thing smells like a **** sandwich, and the older it gets, the more it smells.


So popular to just blame it on the French. Any athlete take note, the message is clear: you too can take drugs and if you get caught, well, blame it on the French.

By the way, I just read an article and now Landis's team is saying according to the article that the LNDD lab destroyed all the lab data for the samples after stage 17 before they or the USADA could review the test data.
...and before this, the lab had already requested a routine independent review of their procedures. I'm thinking the lab is pretty confident in their work.



This smells really bad. So they can now claim that all the "B" samples were positive and no one can verify the results. What is this system, caught in the dark ages. They would not do this unless they had results and lies to cover up otherwise the data would support they're good science.
It "smells bad" because the USADA is abiding by the WADA-required gag order not to say anything until the case is fully adjudicated. Meanwhile, Landis and his defense team can say whatever they want in public.

I swear, I cannot recall any other instance where so many people accept the assertions of a defense lawyer with little or no critical thought.

To me, this is akin to Kenneth Lay's attorney insisting that Lay is utterly innocent and had no idea what his management team was doing... and the general public simply nodding in agreement and villifying the prosecutor for the temerity to try the case.

And Landis' comments are getting so egregious, that now WADA is considering modifying that gag rule. The lab deleted data? They tampered with digital evidence? So what did they do, fake hundreds of pages of data? He's going to ask the Department of Justice to investigate USADA?

Landis is entitled to defend himself, but it's increasingly clear that he is going off the deep end.

I'm not blaming it on the French, I'm saying the whole thing smells like a word I guess I'm not allowed to use here.

I think Floyd's lawyers' defence is as dumb as Tyler's evil twin defence, and VDB's dog defence, and Edita Rumsas' Mother-In-Law defence (anybody remember her?). The whole sport smells like excrement, and you can't leave the lab that tests the athletes out of it. If Floyd does get away with cheating, it will be because the lab bungled the test procedures.

I'm not blaming it on the French, I'm saying the whole thing smells like a word I guess I'm not allowed to use here.

Yes, you are. You are blaming it on the French. Well, you know whta Vive le France! I think Bacciagalupe had it right. You idiots out there accepting all word from the athlete's argument and none whatsoever from the other side. It's so stupid. So, how about you nuts apply that same line to the OJ case. They said he didn't do it, so he must not have done it. Ok, ok. You get my point. Landis is as guilty as sin, Armstrong too.

...Landis is entitled to defend himself, but it's increasingly clear that he is going off the deep end.

Granted, a desperate and guilty man might behave in this manner, but also consider...If you were innocent, and sensed that you were going to lose because you were getting screwed over and thereby lose your reputation and livelihood, would you not take similar actions?

I'm not saying whether Floyd is innocent, or guilty, because frankly I do not know. I sincerely doubt that any others posting here truly know one way or the other either. It does appear to me though, that Floyd is getting placed in a box, and that WADA, UCI and USADA all seem ok with the lab's procedural and errors and inconsistent interpretation of what constitutes a positive test - things that, were I a professional cyclist (and a clean one at that), I would be very concerned about.

Granted, a desperate and guilty man might behave in this manner, but also consider...If you were innocent, and sensed that you were going to lose because you were getting screwed over and thereby lose your reputation and livelihood, would you not take similar actions?


If I were innocent and felt like I was getting screwed over I would say that I'm innocent and tell the truth.

If I were guilty as sin and didn't have an alibi to save my life, then I would start with one of a number of different stories to tell to defend myself, none of them relating to another mind you. If I were indeed guilty and backed into a corner I would make up some story. Once that story turned out to be obviously false, I wouldn't give up there. Nope, I'd make up another one. If that didn't work. I'd make up another one. And so on. This is the situation Landis finds himself in one can only imagine.