Opinions on Chris King hub limits

[Doggus]

Newly warrantied tandem should be ready soon. We're toying with the idea of getting Chris King hubs on some Deep V wheels. Only problem is the Chris Kings only come in max 36 hole. Can anyone comment on the ability of these, laced to DeepVs, to hold up under ~380lbs of captain and stoker (plus 38? pounds of tandem)? Would it be wiser to go with a Phil Wood hub that will do a 40 hole (and even 48!)? We're wanting the color in the CK hubs but not at the expense of trashing our wheels.

Also just how bad is the CK hub noise?

Added: not sure if it makes a difference but we will now be running an Avid BB7 disc on the rear.

[dbohemian]

If they were built very well by known wheel builder I would think they could work fine.

FYI. Phil Wood now has their hubs in various colors. Blue, Gold, Purple, Black. I can help you with that if you need. I have an excellent wheel guy too.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles
http://www.bohemianbicycles.com

[TandemGeek]

Can anyone comment on the ability of these, laced to DeepVs, to hold up under ~380lbs of captain and stoker (plus 38? pounds of tandem)?

Yes and no. IMHO, I would say a well-built set of 36h wheels for what you describe for your team weight and with the chip-seal roads I've experienced when riding in Texas would be OK but you are probably approaching the upper limit for long-term reliability and durability on an everyday set of wheels. That said, they'd be a better choice than any of the integrated wheelsets (particularly for comfort) and at the worst you might find that they need a bit of trueing every six months or so depending on how many miles you're logging and on what kind of roads / conditions. The CK's themselves would certainly be up to the task so, again, the only real potential area of concern would be the service life of your rear rim. On the bright side, lacing a new rim to a rear hub is not expensive and I've probably replaced more rear rims due to damage from road hazards than old age or fatigue. In fact, I carry a spare rim when we go to rallies "just in case" someone we're drafting fails to call out a pot hole (been there too many times).


Would it be wiser to go with a Phil Wood hub that will do a 40 hole (and even 48!)? We're wanting the color in the CK hubs but not at the expense of trashing our wheels.

Phil Woods are certainly nice... we've got two sets, and 40h would certainly provide a bit more margin. 48 would be overkill IMHO unless you're also planning to use the same wheels for loaded touring.

Also just how bad is the CK hub noise?

It's not bad, it's just different... More like a small fresh water fishing reel vs. a deep sea reel.


Phil Wood now has their hubs in various colors. Blue, Gold, Purple, Black.

Really? Is that a special order thing where they send them out for anodizing?

[dbohemian]

Really? Is that a special order thing where they send them out for anodizing?


They often have certain colors in stock. It does cost a bit more and I don't know where they are having it done.

The ones I have gotten have been very nice though. Typical Phil Wood Quality.

Dave B
Bohemian Bicycles

P.S. I order quite a bit of Phil Wood and I have an excellent wheel builder. If anyone needs anything, don't hesitate to contact me.

[rmac]

Do disks put added strain on the spokes? It was recommended to me to use 40 spokes rather than the 36 I wanted because we have disk brakes.

[TandemGeek]

Do disks put added strain on the spokes? It was recommended to me to use 40 spokes rather than the 36 I wanted because we have disk brakes.

All hub-mounted brake systems (coaster brakes, integrated hub brakes, Arai drum brakes, and discs) put a higher demand on the spoke network vs. a rim brake system. Because almost all disc systems are asymetrical, they put an even higher demand on spokes than internal and coaster hub-mounted brake systems and certainly a higher demand than Arai drum which doesn't generate nearly as much brake force. Therefore, as is the case with all hub mounted brakes, disc brakes preclude the use of radial spoking and require special attention to wheel lacing patterns and spoke tension; however, in most cases, your typical 3x patterns are sufficient so long as other prudent disc-specific wheel building practices are followed. In fact, some of the disc hub manufacterers will even specify how your wheel should be laced, e.g., brake pulling spokes with elbows out, etc...

So, as to whether or not adding 4 spokes to a wheel that will be used with disc brakes is necessary, I would say that the added strength needed to deal with the disc brake is one of the least compelling reasons behind such a decision. What is more important is making sure that the wheels use an appropriate model of tandem-specific disc hub and rim with the correct number of spokes and lacing pattern for your team weight and any luggage that will carried on the tandem.

If someone wants to get into the dynamics of how braking force torque gets distributed through a hub body, flange, and into the spoke network and rim knock yourselves out. It's certainly interesting but, again, at a practical level what would be more important is making sure that your wheel builder knows how to select the correct components and lace a disc wheel vs. the number of spokes since it is uneven and inadequate spoke tension that will eventually do-in your wheel. Moreover, and as you'd expect, periodic wheel inspections to ensure wheel true and tension are properly maintained are also prudent steps to ensure your wheels -- with or without discs -- remain reliable and long-lasting.

Bottom Line: When in doubt, most wheel builders will usually go conservative and recommend higher spoke counts: a few extra spokes never really hurt even if they aren't absolutely necessary. However, there are other aspects of wheel building that are far more important than simply the numbers of spokes used. So, if you really needed a 40h wheel without a disc, you'll certainly need one with a disc.

[TandemGeek]

... just how bad is the CK hub noise?

Insomnia is a wonderful thing...

Here are links to two video/audio files.

1. This first one is of a Phil Wood FSC hub on one of our road tandems that's actually pretty quiet compared to most as I recently cleaned and re-greased the pawls: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rvty1p9HM4

2. This second one is a Chris King hub on our off-road tandem that's probably overdue for a cleaning and relube. Therefore, be attentive to the latter half of the video/audio clip as that's the sound most folks are referring to when they talk about the killer-bee-buzzz of a Chris King hub: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt5aeZc96Cc

Note that the road tandem was in a much shorter gear vs. the off-road tandem (so the wheel didn't spin-up to as high of an RPM) and also note that the off-road tandem's rear hydraulic brake was probably dragging a bit, which hastened the spin-down towards the end of the clip. Finally, the off-road tandem's rear frame pieces are a bit like megaphones made out of tin.

3. This is a different audio clip of the same Chris King hub on our off-road tandem after being cleaned and lubed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OI95G6nC1g

[Doggus]

Thanks for the replies.

Geek: your youtube of the Chris Kings is an 'ear-opener'. I didn't know those things could sound that bad. I'm the kind of guy who likes silent hubs but I may be able to deal with that. This tandem will be used for touring but will most likely be pulling our Burley Nomad.


DBohemian: Do you know if the Phil Wood hubs can match the Chris King Mango color?

http://www.chrisking.com/hubs/classic_images/250/Classic_OrangeGroup.jpg

http://www.chrisking.com/hubs/20mm_images/230W/Orange_20mm.jpg

[dbohemian]

I have a call into Phil wood and will find out for you.

Even if they have orange though, it probably would not be the same orange as the King. An ano tank is just dye that is applied with electricity to aluminum and like matching paint on a car it is very difficult to match anodizing. Since they are using different suppliers (for the ano work) I would assume it will be different.

Will get back soon.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian

[TandemGeek]

Geek: your youtube of the Chris Kings is an 'ear-opener'. I didn't know those things could sound that bad.

Again, the hub was in need of service when I recorded the first audio clip and the aluminum rear swing arm does amplify the hub's sound quite a bit compared to just about any other frame.

So, to be fair, here's another clip of the hub after being cleaned and lubricated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OI95G6nC1g

If anyone didn't hear the same hub when it was dirty, here you go... if only to underscore that periodic maintenance is often times under appreciated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt5aeZc96Cc

[Doggus]

"This is a private video. If you have been sent this video, please make sure you accept the sender's friend request."

Couldn't view it! This must be some serious bike pR0n!!!

[TandemGeek]

"This is a private video.

Whoops. Wrong button. Try it now.

[Doggus]

I can feel my teeth rattling now with those hubs.

For anyone interested, we're trying to get some hubs that will most closely match the following frame:
http://www.co-motion.com/graphics/big/cinnflamesbig.jpg

Our bike is very similar to that one. Actually that was our bike till we sent it back. We're thinking the 'Bright Silver' DeepVs (anodized, not painted) with the Mango CK hubs. We're hoping the CK hubs are not too orangeish. We're looking for more of a burnt orange or bronze would even work as our fade is a bronze going into the flames.

We finally got our tandem back as of yesterday 4/27/2007. I think we turned it in for warranty in late October or early December.

I called velocity and asked for some high res photos of their rims. The guy who answered said the gold rims would go with that frame?!? I'm not seeing it and neither is the stoker. The bright silver is 3rd from the left.

http://sterling-ranch.com/CoMotion/VelocityRims.jpg

[TandemGeek]

I can feel my teeth rattling now with those hubs.

It's the bling that sings.... but you'll never notice it while riding unless you're sitting on the back wheel of another bike that has CK's. I love to take mine apart just to look at the engagement rings, splines, and other fabulously machined parts that goes into one of their hubs: Swiss watch esq..., if you will. The Phil Woods have that old-school bling thing and the KISS principle going for them: hand polished like fine jewerly and a simple but elegant engagement system.

... we're trying to get some hubs that will most closely match the following frame...

What color are the rest of the components that you're hanging on the bike? Carbon cranks or polished? black stems and seatposts or polished? Me, I'm a bit conservative when it comes to hubs and rims. If you are hanging polished components on the frame I'd go with a polished hub, silver spokes, and a Ti grey or black rim. If they are dark, then go with black hubs, black spokes, and a black rim which will have a bright, machined sidewall to give the bike color. In fact, and while I'm not a fan, the Rolf wheels with their burnt orange decals on black rims would really look slick with that paint scheme.

I also find that I prefer black sidewall tires on black or dark rims for a contemporary go-fast look and tan / natural sidewalls on silver rims for a more classic look. Black tires on silver rims is OK, but not my favorite.

In case you're interested, I did a quick photo comparison of how different wheel & tire combinations look on both light and darker colored frames that you can find at this URL: http://www.thetandemlink.com/Wheels.html

http://www.thetandemlink.com/Images/Wheels.jpg

[Doggus]

I'll edit this post later today with a picture of our new frame with the previous frame components on it. It just looks too 'black'. I'm even thinking of the 'leather' colored bar tape and chrome bottle cages.

I sure appreciate other opinions on the aesthetics. I'm still at the point where my wife has to re-dress me when we go out :(


Stay tuned....

[dbohemian]

Phil wood hubs are not offered in Orange. They have black,red, gold, purple and pink I believe.

If I can help in any other way, don't hesitate to contact me.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian bicycles