Road Bike Racing - Group Rides v Solo Intervals

My team and other local teams offer lots of fast group rides of all description. Some of my teammates seem to do almost all of them, which surprises me because the conventional wisdom is highly structured solo intervals (usually dictated by a coach), with maybe one group ride a week.

Structured solo intervals pretty much suck. Group rides = lack of boredom and ability to ride longer and harder maybe but structured intervals are specific and targeted and give you the workout you need on that day.

So what's your rough breakdown? Pre-season? Season?

I wonder if the breakdown varies by how long someone has been racing...

My schedule for last week (from my coach) was rest monday, 4 hrs mountain bike climbing tuesday, wednesday night worlds wednesday (group ride), intervals thursday w/TTT practice, rest friday, race saturday sunday.

So, one group ride, one interval day, 2 race days (basically crazy group rides), one mtb ride to get me ready for that season. Personally, I wouln't want to do only intervals or only group rides, a mix of both is perfect for me.

I think you need both, structured hard (solo intervals) and unstructured hard (group) rides feel different to me. I prefer doing mostly solo intervals, or intervals with 1 or 2 team mates, seems easier to focus on specificity, and only do group rides as race substitutes (like this weekend coming weekend, where I wont be racing), or when I'm burnt out on doing the solo intervals and want to mix it up with some others.

you definitely need both. I generally do at least one group ride a week. As it gets intothe season, usually 2 group rides.

Group rides however can keep you from doing the focused work you need however. So you can't dogroup rides to the point that you can't do your interval work well.

Many years ago, I rode with my team three nights a week and raced on the weekends. If there was no races, then I rode those days with the team, also. We had a great time and we were fast, but our racing results were minimal. I was a Cat 4 at the time and I finally decided to only train with the team one night a week, two at the most, and do my own thing the rest of the time. My results improved dramatically and I was a Cat 2 within a couple years. The biggest thing that I noticed that was our Tuesday night rides seemed to be a self-flagelation type thing as penance for the poor weekend results, when we should have been resting more.

Then again, we were self-coached and we needed somebody to give us structure or focus like the previous poster mentions.

I think it all depends upon the nature of your group rides and what your own weaknesses are. If you can use your group rides to strengthen your your weak spots, then do so. Our Thursday Nighter is basically a short race...there's no waiting and if you're dropped, you're on your own. The field is represented by anyone from 1's to 5's and Masters and is usually quite large. One thing I've noticed is that the strongest guys are the ones out there attacking and making breakaways the most often. But most of the guys just sit in for the entire ride and are content to hang and try for the final sprint. So really, you get out of it what you put in.

Structured intervals are critical for race training for a few reasons:

• You need to get used to dropping your hammer on demand, solo intervals teach you how that feels.

• You need to know how to push yourself on command.

• You need the structure that intervals with a HRM or Power Meter can give you - that group rides may not afford you.

Both will help you get fitter. But I think solo intervals are kind of critical.

contrary to what alot of ppl on these forums think, you do not need group rides to get better. sure they keep things from getting too boring, which is why ill do them every couple weeks or so, but the best training comes from solo workouts where you can taylor your effort to the exact time and power u need to maximize training benefit.

contrary to what alot of ppl on these forums think, you do not need group rides to get better. sure they keep things from getting too boring, which is why ill do them every couple weeks or so, but the best training comes from solo workouts where you can taylor your effort to the exact time and power u need to maximize training benefit.
+1

Group rides are usually too stochastic and unstructured. I prefer to do most of my training solo. But nothing beats group rides for those long weekend rides.

In some part just to be a devil's advocate...

group rides are the best training for bike racing. You rarely get to choose the length and intensity of your efforts during a race. Training only in prescribed time intervals at prescribed intensities prepares you only for those specific things. Group rides are as unpredicdable and random as races and are therefore the best training. They also have the added benefit of improving your pack riding skills.

And they're hella more fun.

In some part just to be a devil's advocate...

group rides are the best training for bike racing. You rarely get to choose the length and intensity of your efforts during a race. Training only in prescribed time intervals at prescribed intensities prepares you only for those specific things. Group rides are as unpredicdable and random as races and are therefore the best training. They also have the added benefit of improving your pack riding skills.

And they're hella more fun.
Point taken. But there is also a time for long, sustained intervals. Groups rides are rarely the time for those.

Group Riding Pros: Improves group-riding, drafting, and pack skills. Forces you to push harder than you otherwise might. Improves ability to ride at race-pace. (Which is why pros motor-pace when they can't train with a group).

Group Riding Cons: You do the workout that the group does, regardless of whether it fits into your training plan.

Personally, I ride with my team (15 to 50 riders) on Wednesday nights and on Sat. and Sun. mornings. Tues. and Thurs. I do solo (or sometimes with two or three teammates) interval training.

Both types of rides serve their purpose. But overall, I feel that I benefit more from riding with guys who are better than me.

Bob

I do 2-3 long (120km+) group rides per month. I don't use group rides as training for anything other than in the pack racing/riding. If I want specificity, I go solo. Our group ride dynamics mean I get a heck of a workout in, or sometimes very little workout but lots of steady pack riding.

I'll do a few during the month. One things I have done several times (tell me if it sux to do for whatever reason) is to stop for a pee break and ask the group not to soft pedal. I will then make it priority to catch them at all cost. I love it. Oh, and these are on regular group rides, not the A rides.

Point taken. But there is also a time for long, sustained intervals. Groups rides are rarely the time for those.

Fall off the back, and then try to bridge up to the group solo....that's one hell of a workout I found.

contrary to what alot of ppl on these forums think, you do not need group rides to get better. sure they keep things from getting too boring, which is why ill do them every couple weeks or so, but the best training comes from solo workouts where you can taylor your effort to the exact time and power u need to maximize training benefit.


Plus you can stick to your own drug regiment when you're off training by yourself.:)

"Intervals make you strong, motor pacing makes you fast" is the common wisdom. You have to stregnthen your body with intervals but the only way to go fast is, strangely enough, by going fast! You are never going to go at sustained race pace on your own, you need a group or motor pacing to go fast.

Motor pacing actually takes it one step further, it trains you to ride at faster than peleton speed. Sitting in and then moving over and going into the wind behind a moped at faster than race speed is the icing on the cake.

but the only way to go fast is, strangely enough, by going fast!
So you're saying it's better to train downwind than upwind, downhill than uphill because those are the faster directions? Does that mean a trainer has no benefit because ground speed is 0? I think there's a little more to it than you say. There's at least metabolic training, inertial load, and specificity to consider.

"Intervals make you strong, motor pacing makes you fast" is the common wisdom. You have to stregnthen your body with intervals but the only way to go fast is, strangely enough, by going fast! You are never going to go at sustained race pace on your own, you need a group or motor pacing to go fast.

Motor pacing actually takes it one step further, it trains you to ride at faster than peleton speed. Sitting in and then moving over and going into the wind behind a moped at faster than race speed is the icing on the cake.


Nice.

So you're saying it's better to train downwind than upwind, downhill than uphill because those are the faster directions? Does that mean a trainer has no benefit because ground speed is 0? I think there's a little more to it than you say. There's at least metabolic training, inertial load, and specificity to consider.


What I am saying is that stregnth and speed are two different things and you have to train for both separately. If you happen to be working on speed that day, then yes, train downhill only. If you are working on strength that day, then uphill only.

But don't listen to me, I'm just recommending what pro's have done for years.

So you're saying it's better to train downwind than upwind, downhill than uphill because those are the faster directions? Does that mean a trainer has no benefit because ground speed is 0? I think there's a little more to it than you say. There's at least metabolic training, inertial load, and specificity to consider.

Well actually sometimes it is good to train downwind, slightly downhill. In my program, speed intervals are done downwind. They're short intense efforts and they're intended to be fast, and make you adapt to riding fast, so doing them downwind, slightly downhill helps.


And I think San Rensho was saying you intensity (intervals) and Speed ( race pace, or above in the case of motor pacing).

My group rides are full of Pro1-2s.

After hanging with them, my races feel more like recovery rides.

It just depends on the group...

Great discussion. Agree that there are times to train alone but riding with groups is far easier psychologically.

What was an eye opener for me was to analyze power files from my group rides (was doing 2-3/week). On those rides I always felt like I was working key energy systems (1,5,10 min) but when a coach looked at a typical group ride file his comment was "great neuromuscular wkt" (read sprint wkt).

In essence I wasn't doing jack in key areas that needed work (5 min, 20 min). So I went down to 1 group ride per week and put in more structured intervals (5 x 5:00 and 2 x 20:00) and saw my FTP (one hour power) go up.

In some cases I'll do a set of the above intervals and then go do a group ride (hanging on for dear life of course). That's a killer day of training.

gene r

Also, instead of thinking of the group ride as something you have sit in and win, you can always hammer off the front for a solo interval if you want - no rules.

contrary to what alot of ppl on these forums think, you do not need group rides to get better. sure they keep things from getting too boring, which is why ill do them every couple weeks or so, but the best training comes from solo workouts where you can taylor your effort to the exact time and power u need to maximize training benefit.

+1 I gained most of my current fitness just doing intensity with a couple friends. I'm doing some group stuff (training races) these days, but I haven't seen any fitness improvement because of it.

My group rides are full of Pro1-2s.

After hanging with them, my races feel more like recovery rides.

It just depends on the group...

That was going to be my point as well. When I started doing our local Wednesday Worlds rides I gave up on intervals all together. If your group has Pro/1/2's in the field do you try to keep up with them? When you are dropped do you give up? Or do you try to latch back on at all costs? It's all in what you make of it.

Plus living in the mountains as I do you are almost always doing interval work by default getting over the hills. If I was living in the flats then I'd consider a more structured work out. When I abandoned structure work outs, and this includes getting rid of all the electronic devices, my race improved dramatically YMMV.

Age old advice, "ride lots".

When I abandoned structure work outs, and this includes getting rid of all the electronic devices, my race improved dramatically YMMV.

Age old advice, "ride lots".

Absolutely. Just ride.

And you don't need a power meter, HR mon, brain wave scan, etc, with all the down load gizmos, or even a speedo, to tell you that you just got dropped or that you are off the front.

Now cadence, well, I think thats important, but nothing else really.

Just be careful. 'Ride lots' can be a recipe for being fit but not fast.

Just be careful. 'Ride lots' can be a recipe for being fit but not fast.

It's a good recipie if you're getting a little "extra help" in the recovery dept. ;)

Indeed.

Just to elaborate on what I meant: Different training intensities are necessary for optimal adaptation. Group rides provide one sort of training intensity, but cannot be the only part of a training plan. Results may vary, of course, and for some, it may work. But for the vast majority of people, group rides can't take the place of structured training.

When I abandoned structure work outs, and this includes getting rid of all the electronic devices, my race improved dramatically YMMV.

Age old advice, "ride lots".

this only shows that u were doing your "structured" workouts wrong. this is where a powermeter will help you. there is a reason u cant get fast just by riding lots. it also may be that you are a new rider and any workout on the bike is going to be a good workout.

What I am saying is that stregnth and speed are two different things and you have to train for both separately. If you happen to be working on speed that day, then yes, train downhill only. If you are working on strength that day, then uphill only.

But don't listen to me, I'm just recommending what pro's have done for years.
You're right about that's what they do, but it has nothing to do with the resons you give. First to get this out of the way, strength has nothing to do with road cycling performance. Pro cyclists show no difference in strength from the age and weight matched untrained population. In the context you use, I don't think speed matters either. I'm not sure what you mean by "working on speed", but generally speed is the product of power and most training should be directed toward improving power for the desired duration or metabolic system. This training will depend on stressing the right system and doesn't really depend on how fast the bike happens to be moving (see comment on trainer above).

Where motorpacing may play a role is through specificity. The inertial load for a given power produced will be different in a pack than for a solo rider, so to the extent that motorpacing duplicates the effect of drafting, it may be valuable for training the neuromuscular system for the demands of pack riding. It can also be a tool for proper pacing during a workout as it provides a pacer who doesn't tire, but it isn't necessary to have a pacer for this.

As for following what the pros do, I kind of gave up on that when I heard Eddy Merckyx recommending smoking to open up the lungs. They're pros because they produce an incredible amount of aerobic power, not because of the depth of their understanding of training and physiology.

this only shows that u were doing your "structured" workouts wrong. this is where a powermeter will help you. there is a reason u cant get fast just by riding lots. it also may be that you are a new rider and any workout on the bike is going to be a good workout.

It may also mean that I've been riding for 20 years now and got burned out on all the gadgets and training philosophies and when I got rid of them and started riding with pro/1/2 riders I got better than I ever had :)

Reread my post I think we are on the same level.

I do two group rides per week, and the other days I do solo intervals or recovery. I have found that those on my team who don't like to do group rides do not get good results when they race. They just never develop the confidence and skill needed to race within a pack.

I do two group rides per week, and the other days I do solo intervals or recovery. I have found that those on my team who don't like to do group rides do not get good results when they race. They just never develop the confidence and skill needed to race within a pack.


interesting. the strongest racers on my team never show up for group rides.

interesting. the strongest racers on my team never show up for group rides.

Do you ever even get to ride with them?

--Steve

Do you ever even get to ride with them?

--Steve

maybe once or twice a semester? why u ask?

You're right about that's what they do, but it has nothing to do with the resons you give. First to get this out of the way, strength has nothing to do with road cycling performance. Pro cyclists show no difference in strength from the age and weight matched untrained population. In the context you use, I don't think speed matters either. I'm not sure what you mean by "working on speed", but generally speed is the product of power and most training should be directed toward improving power for the desired duration or metabolic system. This training will depend on stressing the right system and doesn't really depend on how fast the bike happens to be moving (see comment on trainer above).

Where motorpacing may play a role is through specificity. The inertial load for a given power produced will be different in a pack than for a solo rider, so to the extent that motorpacing duplicates the effect of drafting, it may be valuable for training the neuromuscular system for the demands of pack riding. It can also be a tool for proper pacing during a workout as it provides a pacer who doesn't tire, but it isn't necessary to have a pacer for this.

As for following what the pros do, I kind of gave up on that when I heard Eddy Merckyx recommending smoking to open up the lungs. They're pros because they produce an incredible amount of aerobic power, not because of the depth of their understanding of training and physiology.


So, you are very quick to shoot down time tried training techniques, so what do you suggest? Why don't you tell us how we should train to go faster?

maybe once or twice a semester? why u ask?

It just seemed odd is all.

--Steve

I enjoy training solo mostly, and I feel my workouts are fine.
I do think that my pack riding and racing skills would improve with more group rides though.
The more races I do, the more it is dawning on me how much of placing well is due to other factors besides fitness.

So, you are very quick to shoot down time tried training techniques, so what do you suggest? Why don't you tell us how we should train to go faster?
I shot down your explanation of the technique, not the technique itself. To train to go faster, identify the requirements of the targeted events. identify your areas of strength and weakness as they apply to the demands of the events and how improvement in those areas will affect performance, train the areas identified as contributing the most to improving performance applying the principles of specificity and overload, taper to maximize performance.

I shot down your explanation of the technique, not the technique itself. To train to go faster, identify the requirements of the targeted events. identify your areas of strength and weakness as they apply to the demands of the events and how improvement in those areas will affect performance, train the areas identified as contributing the most to improving performance applying the principles of specificity and overload, taper to maximize performance.


Do you work for the government in the doublespeak/beauracracy division? You've gone on and on and said nothing, just "train what you need to to go faster." Thats wonderful, really helpful!

So in your infinite wisdom, does motorpacing make you faster?

Do you work for the government in the doublespeak/beauracracy division? You've gone on and on and said nothing, just "train what you need to to go faster." Thats wonderful, really helpful!

So in your infinite wisdom, does motorpacing make you faster?
The adaptations that would be derived from motorpacing are very unlkely to improve my performance in the events I compete in. Now do you think you or anyone else should base their training plan on my limiters or would they be better off determining their own and training appropriately?

I'll stand by your summary of what I said. Train what you need to go faster, not what someone else needs. By disagreeing with this, it seems you are saying one of two things a) there is a single plan that works for everyone and we should all follow it, or b) we should choose a particular individual and model our training plan on what works for him or her. Which is it? And if it's b), how does one choose whose plan to follow?

If you believe in data and science (and wear a HRM), which I do, I find that group rides keep me in no-man's land, and just end up being junk miles that neither build, nor offer recovery. Group rides got me into racing, but it seems difficult to do both--


In some part just to be a devil's advocate...

group rides are the best training for bike racing. You rarely get to choose the length and intensity of your efforts during a race. Training only in prescribed time intervals at prescribed intensities prepares you only for those specific things. Group rides are as unpredicdable and random as races and are therefore the best training. They also have the added benefit of improving your pack riding skills.

And they're hella more fun.

If you believe in data and science (and wear a HRM), which I do, I find that group rides keep me in no-man's land, and just end up being junk miles that neither build, nor offer recovery. Group rides got me into racing, but it seems difficult to do both--

B to the ingo.

Group rides are one dynamic of training, but in terms of building raw power and speed you're generally better off solo.

I like to do one per week when I'm not racing, just to get out and do some race simulation efforts.

Yeah, that's why both are necessary. You can't argue against one or for the other. You need to do them both.

It always seemed like most of the guys in our team's rides treated the training rides like races and then fell flat on race day. It's great fun to 'race' against buddies, but it can be overdone. That's why I would only ride a day or two a week with the group and then work on my own needs the rest of the time.

One needs group rides to develop pack skills, paceline skills, etc, but one also needs some specific personal training and rest to really be good.

Despite the somewhat misleading thread title, I get the idea that the OP was asking for what kind of mix we have, not whether one is better than the other.

I don't think there's any real argument that you need to have a mix, and not just of "group rides v solo intervals", but a mix of hard rides, easy rides, flat rides, climbing rides, etc. (unless you are training for only one type of event). You can't just go hard (or easy) all the time and expect to improve fitness. At best you can maintain it that way, but you won't get better. Too much hard work and you'll burn out, get overtrained, or injured. Too much easy work and you'll never reach your potential.

So, my mix is: 1-2 days/wk of solo interval or hard work. 1-2 days/wk of moderate/recovery/technique work, usually solo but may be with a partner or small group. 1 day/wk group ride. If I'm feeling frisky, I will choose a harder group ride. If I am feeling crappy, I will do an easier one. And actually the mix varies throughout the season. For example, usually only one hard/interval day in the week or so prior to a race or other big event. I have just started racing this year, and this "program" comes from the TrainingPeaks Virtual Coach, which is based on Friel's work. I guess I'll have to report back at the end of the season and let you know if it's effective or not.

I'm a cat1, who just stopped racing this year.
I did all the group rides.
I raced as often as possible.
I "never" did intervals.
I did this program for 16 years.
It worked, because it kept burnout to a minimum each year.

My point is, I got everything I needed from fast moving groups and races. If i needed to do some short intervals, I just did them within the contaxt of the groups. If i needed some sustained TT-type work, I did it within the context of the group. Couldn't have been more simple and best of all, I got to socialize throughout.

If you believe in data and science (and wear a HRM), which I do, I find that group rides keep me in no-man's land, and just end up being junk miles that neither build, nor offer recovery. Group rides got me into racing, but it seems difficult to do both--

This depends a lot on the group ride. In a "ride in a paceline" sort of group ride this can happen. In a "race simulation" type group ride, if you are in no man's land, then attack.