This is not your typical bike accident story- it involves a police chase. I have been biking to work almost exclusively this year, but had an appointment that required use of our car, so I drove yesterday. As fate would have it, a woman was killed on the road I take to work-- story here (http://web3.aftenbladet.no/lokalt/article444558.ece), in Norwegian. I would normally have been riding home about a half hour after it occurred.
To summarize, this road is like a bicycle superhighway. It is "forbidden" to use it as a through-road-- but it is not controlled. It is designed to serve a few farms in a rather suburban area of the city. It is a very narrow two lane road-- and if a bus approaches, a car would need to pull over and stop to allow it to pass. Because it receives such little traffic, and because it is designated as a bike route, it receives a large amount of bike traffic. This stretch of road is only a few kilometers long, and I probably meet 30 bicyclists on any given morning this time of year. School kids walk to the bus. In the afternoon, people walk with strollers, etc. In other words, it is a glorified sidewalk.
Yesterday afternoon, two "girls" in their 20s were noticed driving an unregistered car. For some inexplicable reason, the police chased this car onto this road. The driver of the car ended up hitting two bicyclists- killing one and injuring the other- in a head-on collision.
The question that sticks out in my mind is why the police pursued in this situation-- it isn't like a serious crime had been committed. It should have been obvious that it would end in disaster on this particular road at 3:30pm. A lot of cities have restricted the conditions where police can chase.
In some regards, it is a statistical anomaly to fall victim to this sort of accident-- a mostly complete random tragedy. But in many ways, the police could have responded in a way where it may have been avoidable. I am more bothered by this accident because my wife often has walked our 4 month old son on this road in the afternoons-- and it is very close to home. I rode by it today. It was not a pretty sight.
recursive
04-27-07, 04:23 PM
I wouldn't place any blame at the feet of the cops for this at all. The girls are responsible for their own actions.
HoustonB
04-27-07, 04:26 PM
The whole concept of a police car chase is something that has always angered me. More so when innocent people are injured. When the result is death (of innocent bystanders), words fail me. High speed chasing, powerful cars, sirens and lights are all about keeping macho cops happy.
A simple and incredibly cheap technology solution would allow a cop on foot, bicycle or car to apprehend any motorist. The cop presses a button and all private motor vehicles within 100 meters lose engine power for a few minutes (but not brakes or power steering).
Obviously people with limited intellect will argue – what happens if people get the device, or it would be easy to circumvent. Sure, do me a favor get dressed in a cop's uniform and go for a walk in your local police station. ANY vehicle that has had the device compromised and fails to stop, would be open-season for deadly force – lets call it natural selection.
infernobutterfl
04-27-07, 05:10 PM
I think we missed the point. The point is that the girls were RUNNING from the cops and hit innocent people. They should be the ones to blame and accept the punishment of murder.
If you want the cops to enforce the law, you have to let them take down the ones who runs from the law. If the cops cant take down the ones who runs, then no one will get arrested.
CB HI
04-27-07, 06:42 PM
Let the criminals know that they can get away by simply running, and alot more of them will be running from the cops at high speed.
Dchiefransom
04-27-07, 07:08 PM
I've read of instances here in the U.S. where the cops quit chasing, but the suspects kept running and killed someone.
If you shut off the engine of a car, you lose power steering.
filtersweep
04-27-07, 11:15 PM
Maybe, but it seems more and more US communities are taking the approach that the chase itself poses a higher risk to public safety than allowing the criminals to remain in the community. When I was living in the US, I can remember three prominent chases resulting in innocent deaths... one guy was killed when the police car struck him.
I am not suggesting there is an easy answer, but consider this... police have all sorts of restrictions on circumstances where they can use deadly force (shooting a suspect). Police generally do not use weapons in crowded areas. The chase issue is very similar.
Let the criminals know that they can get away by simply running, and alot more of them will be running from the cops at high speed.
CommuterRun
04-28-07, 03:05 AM
It's entirely the fault of the girls for running. I don't know what the law says on this in Norway, but over here the driver can be charged with murder and the passenger(s) can be charged with accessory to murder, in addition to any other charges that may apply. As it should be.
An Electro-Magnetic Radiation (EMR) pulse, if it's strong enough, can shut down everything in range that is controlled by a computer chip and isn't hardened against such an attack, but I've never heard of being able to do this without frying the system. Something like this that wouldn't fry the chip and at a technology level suitable for law enforcement sounds like Sci-Fi to me. Power steering and brakes work off a car's vacuum system. If the engine isn't running steering and brakes will still work, to some degree, but there won't be power anything.
My condolences to the family(ies) and friends of the cyclists.
sgtsmile
04-28-07, 07:12 AM
In Ontario, there would be an automatic investigation by the special investigations branch of the police (I forget the precise name). For something as trivial as an unregistered car, the police would not chase IF there would be risk to the public. They have this little thing called a radio.... and would arrange for a car to intercept rather than pursue a car down a crowded path/road that was used so heavilly by bike traffic. In all likelihood, the police would be in serious trouble here if such a thing happened in this jurisdiction. It goes without saying that the driver of the car would also be in trouble. Filtersweep has it right in that many people do not think that the risks posed by a chase make the chase worth it.
HoustonB
04-28-07, 09:14 AM
I've read of instances here in the U.S. where the cops quit chasing, but the suspects kept running and killed someone.
If you shut off the engine of a car, you lose power steering.Most engines are managed by computers adding a device that receives a radio signal and cuts engine rpm to idle, will not cause loss of brakes or steering power. Why does loss of power have to equate with "shutting down" the engine? Almost as dense as science fiction quarter-wit.
dobber
04-28-07, 09:22 AM
Most engines are managed by computers adding a device that receives a radio signal and cuts engine rpm to idle, will not cause loss of brakes or steering power. Why does loss of power have to equate with "shutting down" the engine? Almost as dense as science fiction quarter-wit.
So tell me, when you've cut the power to all these vehicle in the immediate area, what happens to those vehicle approaching at, now, much higher rates of speed?
HoustonB
04-28-07, 10:07 AM
So tell me, when you've cut the power to all these vehicle in the immediate area, what happens to those vehicle approaching at, now, much higher rates of speed?
LOL
filtersweep
04-28-07, 12:28 PM
This is turning out exactly like I thought it would. The 24 year old driver is being charged (she was driving under the influence, BTW)-- but she was released yesterday. I am sure she will end up doing some time, and it sounds like she is pleading guilty.
What I do not understand is, if it is so important to chase her for driving an unregistered vehicle, and she has shown a clear disregard for the law by fleeing, and a disregard for public safety by driving on this road and killing someone, why the hell are they releasing her after one day?
On a better note, the community is considering closing the road to vehicles, and it is still front page news in the media.
donnamb
04-28-07, 12:43 PM
What I do not understand is, if it is so important to chase her for driving an unregistered vehicle, and she has shown a clear disregard for the law by fleeing, and a disregard for public safety by driving on this road and killing someone, why the hell are they releasing her after one day?
Perhaps because now that they know her background, they do not believe she is a flight risk or a danger to the community. If yes to both, why waste public money on incarceration before conviction?
wfin2004
04-28-07, 01:08 PM
The whole concept of a police car chase is something that has always angered me. More so when innocent people are injured. When the result is death (of innocent bystanders), words fail me. High speed chasing, powerful cars, sirens and lights are all about keeping macho cops happy.
A simple and incredibly cheap technology solution would allow a cop on foot, bicycle or car to apprehend any motorist. The cop presses a button and all private motor vehicles within 100 meters lose engine power for a few minutes (but not brakes or power steering).
Obviously people with limited intellect will argue – what happens if people get the device, or it would be easy to circumvent. Sure, do me a favor get dressed in a cop's uniform and go for a walk in your local police station. ANY vehicle that has had the device compromised and fails to stop, would be open-season for deadly force – lets call it natural selection.
Limited intellect huh? Give me your best reasoning as to why this device you talk about is "incredibly cheap". Tell me how "incredibly cheap" it is to install a device that would take care of the 143 million cars just in the US?
wfin2004
04-28-07, 01:09 PM
Let the criminals know that they can get away by simply running, and alot more of them will be running from the cops at high speed.
:beer:
wfin2004
04-28-07, 01:12 PM
It's entirely the fault of the girls for running. I don't know what the law says on this in Norway, but over here the driver can be charged with murder and the passenger(s) can be charged with accessory to murder, in addition to any other charges that may apply. As it should be.
An Electro-Magnetic Radiation (EMR) pulse, if it's strong enough, can shut down everything in range that is controlled by a computer chip and isn't hardened against such an attack, but I've never heard of being able to do this without frying the system. Something like this that wouldn't fry the chip and at a technology level suitable for law enforcement sounds like Sci-Fi to me. Power steering and brakes work off a car's vacuum system. If the engine isn't running steering and brakes will still work, to some degree, but there won't be power anything.
My condolences to the family(ies) and friends of the cyclists.
Agreed, and my sentiments as well.
wfin2004
04-28-07, 01:15 PM
LOL
So grandma is turning a corner in her Buick and the power is cut to the steering OR goes to idle mode when she pulls out in front of another grandma. What do you think is going to happen? Keep LOL because you are the one looking like you are of "limited intellect" about now. About as silly as your "******Extreme Advocacy*****" thread.
HoustonB
04-28-07, 03:26 PM
So grandma is turning a corner in her Buick and the power is cut to the steering OR goes to idle mode when she pulls out in front of another grandma. What do you think is going to happen? Keep LOL because you are the one looking like you are of "limited intellect" about now. About as silly as your "******Extreme Advocacy*****" thread.The probability of my taking your troll bait depends upon whether you strike me as someone that can construct a compelling, cogent argument and whether the peanut gallery will benefit from the light of my infinite wisdom. This was the case in What cycling studies are needed? (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=189167)
Thanks for taking the trouble to read through my other posts. Alas your critique has zero value to me. Ordinarily I might reciprocate, but your posts above indicate not so much a case of limited intellect but actually the complete absence. Educating you is not on my to-do list. Enjoy.
wfin2004
04-28-07, 04:05 PM
The probability of my taking your troll bait depends upon whether you strike me as someone that can construct a compelling, cogent argument and whether the peanut gallery will benefit from the light of my infinite wisdom. This was the case in What cycling studies are needed? (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=189167)
Thanks for taking the trouble to read through my other posts. Alas your critique has zero value to me. Ordinarily I might reciprocate, but your posts above indicate not so much a case of limited intellect but actually the complete absence. Educating you is not on my to-do list. Enjoy.
I guess you have no facts to base your above statements on. :cry:
N_C
04-28-07, 06:58 PM
In the U.S. police depts. have what is called a pursuit policy, unless you're in California, then it seems one does not exist, or it is chase at any & all costs.
The P.D. in my city is what is called a C.A.L.E A. agency. I do not know what it stands for. Among other things C.A.L.E.A. has very strict rules when it comes to police pursuits. In Sioux City when a chase begins there has to be certain criteria in place for the officer to engage in the pursuit, when it comes to the conditions on the roadway, in the city or not, where in the city the officer is, etc. If a chase starts & if the criteria & conditions change the officer usually has to break off the pursuit. Like if it starts on in a commercial area on a 4-lane roadway & ends up going through a school district with kids getting out of school. At this point the officer must break off the chase because of the risk involved with the kids. The hope is the vehicle that is being pursued will slow down.
Other communities in Iowa & the U.S. are not C.A.L.E.A. agency's which usually means a pursuit can occur regardless of conditions. When this happens I think it has been proven innocent people are hurt or killed then when an officer breaks off a pursuit, rather then continue it when conditions change, like kids in a school zone.
Most engines are managed by computers adding a device that receives a radio signal and cuts engine rpm to idle, will not cause loss of brakes or steering power. Why does loss of power have to equate with "shutting down" the engine? Almost as dense as science fiction quarter-wit.
So, just how would you go about retro-fitting every car currently on the road, and every new car sold before this special receiver is implemented, with this special radio receiver? How long would it take? Where would the money come from? How would compliance be enforced?
I take that back. Every car wouldn't have to be retro-fitted, since it wouldn't work with older cars that came out before computer chips were used in them. There's a reason it's called "Science Fiction." Radios and spike strips are still current technology for this sort of scenario.
ANY vehicle that has had the device compromised and fails to stop, would be open-season for deadly force – lets call it natural selection.
Including bicycles, since they are vehicles. So this science fiction idea changes nothing. :roflmao: :roflmao:
spry
04-28-07, 07:39 PM
In Ontario, there would be an automatic investigation by the special investigations branch of the police (I forget the precise name). For something as trivial as an unregistered car, the police would not chase IF there would be risk to the public. They have this little thing called a radio.... and would arrange for a car to intercept rather than pursue a car down a crowded path/road that was used so heavilly by bike traffic. In all likelihood, the police would be in serious trouble here if such a thing happened in this jurisdiction. It goes without saying that the driver of the car would also be in trouble. Filtersweep has it right in that many people do not think that the risks posed by a chase make the chase worth it.
The polite approach might work well up there neighbor,but with the extreme crap going on down here in the states we use a more stern approach.
LittleBigMan
04-28-07, 09:02 PM
Years ago I remember Fulton county decided that when responding to the scene of a murder, police were not allowed to speed, since the victim was beyond any help from immediate attention.
But I posted last night that my son had been robbed at gun-point walking home from the bus. When one of the young police officers got the descriptions from my son, and found out the perps were also identified in a car-jacking, he had tremors as he told us. Even the cop was a little scared. So I have to say, cops have the hard job.
OP's situation tough all around...
Havs
04-28-07, 09:21 PM
The P.D. in my city is what is called a C.A.L.E A. agency. I do not know what it stands for. Among other things C.A.L.E.A. has very strict rules when it comes to police pursuits.
Other communities in Iowa & the U.S. are not C.A.L.E.A. agency's which usually means a pursuit can occur regardless of conditions.
It is the Commission on Accreditation for Law Enforcement Agencies. It is a business, and it charges a good deal of money to accredit a LE agency, based upon a lengthy review process and visits of the agency applying for the process, to ensure the agency meets the standards they set forth. CALEA will provide a generic set of policies and procedures, for reference, that can be used by the LE agency to assist them in developing, auditing or changing policy/procedures, so they will meet the level of minimum qualifications to get the accreditation (or they can copy and use the exact guidelines provided by CALEA). The agency I work for, as an example, is not currently an accredited entity with CALEA, and I am not sure that we ever will be. My agency does, however, have a restrictive motor vehicle pursuit policy.
Many other agencies in this area have such restrictive pursuit policies as well. The main area of concern is not being an accredited agency by CALEA, it is the magic word "liability". Most states in the US have some type of statutory limitation on the dollar amount (of liability) a LE agency will incur if sued successfully (say, for example, a vehicle is pursued for expired registration plates, the fleeing offender crashes, kills someone and subsequently turns out to be legally intoxicated). Most agencies do not want to have to pay out the settlements, even if there is a cap set by state law or administrative codes. It is simply too expensive.
The pursuit policies set by any LE agency are typically developed by the dept administration, then before they are implemented, they are reviewed by that municipalities' legal representative (IE, city attorney's office), again, looking at liability issues.
My thoughts and prayers go out to the killed and injured bicyclists in the crash.
Blue Jays
04-28-07, 09:39 PM
What a horrible tragedy these immature girls caused by injuring/killing the innocent cyclists. While their crime doesn't seem intentional or planned, it needs to carry a harsh penalty to discourage repetition. Very sad.
As far as the idea for police to remotely disable cars with the push of a button...that could easily cause bad accidents, too. People who wish for big-government programs are generally known as socialists, statists, and/or marxists because they find comfort in the notion of central government control. Americans don't appreciate threats on our freedoms. We certainly don't like being lumped into a group labeled "potential criminals" because of automobile ownership! That bad idea might fly better in Europe where socialism has more popularity.
sloaccord
04-29-07, 01:32 AM
The probability of my taking your troll bait depends upon whether you strike me as someone that can construct a compelling, cogent argument and whether the peanut gallery will benefit from the light of my infinite wisdom. This was the case in What cycling studies are needed? (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=189167)
Thanks for taking the trouble to read through my other posts. Alas your critique has zero value to me. Ordinarily I might reciprocate, but your posts above indicate not so much a case of limited intellect but actually the complete absence. Educating you is not on my to-do list. Enjoy.
wow.
i couldn't help but notice that you could only respond with 'LOL' to his question regarding the cars outside your 100 meter range now rapidly approaching the idling sitting ducks. and yet, it's one of the strongest arguments against your foolish idea. i can see it now:
"news at eleven: massive 57 car pileup leads to 113 deaths. thankfully, the police have apprehended the driver with the expired license that led to the PD's use of their EMP device."
wfin2004
04-29-07, 06:51 AM
and whether the peanut gallery will benefit from the light of my infinite wisdom.
I guess all of us here in BF's are not worthy of his Royal Highness HoustonB's presence and infinite wisdom. Actually a pretty arogant statement on HoustonB's part.
HoustonB
04-29-07, 07:30 AM
wow.
i couldn't help but notice that you could only respond with 'LOL' to his question regarding the cars outside your 100 meter range now rapidly approaching the idling sitting ducks. and yet, it's one of the strongest arguments against your foolish idea. i can see it now:
"news at eleven: massive 57 car pileup leads to 113 deaths. thankfully, the police have apprehended the driver with the expired license that led to the PD's use of their EMP device."
I have experienced numerous occasions on the highway, when traffic will come to a complete standstill (thats zero miles an hour to you), and for no apparent reason. Then a moment later we are moving again and back to 65 or 70 miles an hour. Amazing, everybody manages to change speed, how on earth do they do it?
Yet in your scenario above, certain death of 113 people is likely in (say) a 25 mph zone. I don't know about you but when I see emergency vehicle lights ahead OR stationary traffic, I am going to stop and wait - feel free to blow through at 65.
sgtsmile
04-29-07, 07:51 AM
As far as the idea for police to remotely disable cars with the push of a button...that could easily cause bad accidents, too. People who wish for big-government programs are generally known as socialists, statists, and/or marxists because they find comfort in the notion of central government control. Americans don't appreciate threats on our freedoms. We certainly don't like being lumped into a group labeled "potential criminals" because of automobile ownership! That bad idea might fly better in Europe where socialism has more popularity.
The links between
socialist/marxist/statists and love of big government programs
and
"Americans don't appreciate threats on our freedoms"
and
"don't like being lumped into a group labeled "potential criminals"
I also recall a very powerful American politician (won't name him or claim this to be a direct quotation since I cannot at this time find it) saying on the cbc that "the American people do not want to be held captive by its constitution" regarding security.
Enough to make you wonder....
Blue Jays
04-29-07, 12:16 PM
Hi sgtsmile-
Hope all is well up in Canada. Your comparison of remote disabling of ALL cars driven by innocent drivers in a geographic area as compared with the monitoring of known terrorists/operatives residing in foreign countries telephoning U.S. destinations is very comical. Besides, from your veru article:
"...President George W. Bush defended the program as a 'vital tool' and said the spying was only on known operatives of al-Qaeda and its affiliates and only on communications going in and out of the U.S., not within the country..."
Your hyperlinked source is a non sequitur to this story. BTW, we're talking about vehicle/bicycle accidents and how police involvement and planning can impact the result on cyclists. A poster raised the notion of enabling the police to impact and inconvenience everyone who happened to be operating a car in a general area. Here in America, we clearly don't like that idea.
~ Blue Jays ~
wfin2004
04-29-07, 12:42 PM
Hi sgtsmile-
Hope all is well up in Canada. Your comparison of remote disabling of ALL cars driven by innocent drivers in a geographic area as compared with the monitoring of known terrorists/operatives residing in foreign countries telephoning U.S. destinations is very comical. Besides, from your veru article:
"...President George W. Bush defended the program as a 'vital tool' and said the spying was only on known operatives of al-Qaeda and its affiliates and only on communications going in and out of the U.S., not within the country..."
Your hyperlinked source is a non sequitur to this story. BTW, we're talking about vehicle/bicycle accidents and how police involvement and planning can impact the result on cyclists. A poster raised the notion of enabling the police to impact and inconvenience everyone who happened to be operating a car in a general area. Here in America, we clearly don't like that idea.
~ Blue Jays ~
Just think if the guy flying down the interstate has HIS car disabled when he THINKS he has the right to do 90mph, and everyone else needs to get out of his way because he also thinks it is HIS hwy. Some cop has inconvienced him by disabling his car. He is going to make this time up by being even more aggresive with his driving. Still a strange notion by that poster.
Blue Jays
04-29-07, 01:50 PM
It's just bad traffic-enforcement policy to consider punishing innocent bystanders for what is being committed by other motorists. The two dumb girls who caused the injury/death of the cyclists with their automobile must pay for their poor decisions. Weekends in jail, significant financial penalties, and a long parole/probation period are a start.
HoustonB
04-29-07, 02:56 PM
It's just bad traffic-enforcement policy to consider punishing innocent bystanders for what is being committed by other motorists. The two dumb girls who caused the deaths of the cyclists with their automobile must pay for their poor decisions. Weekends in jail, significant financial penalties, and a long parole/probation period are a start.I would be more than happy to be inconvenienced for a few minutes if it meant the vehicle that caused the deaths was immobilized long enough for the deaths to be prevented.
How warped you must be to perceive a few minutes of inconvenience as a form of punishment.
To be unwilling to momentarily sacrifice a few minutes of your precious freedom in an attempt to avoid the risks associated with a high speed pursuit is unconscionable.
wfin2004
04-29-07, 03:13 PM
You still have not told us how much this gem of yours will cost. I have easily figured the cost in the US alone. 143 million cars at apprx. $500 each [granted, the cost will lower significantly with technology] will be 71 billion. HoustonB will come up with a way for the US to pay for this, I am sure.
Blue Jays
04-29-07, 03:23 PM
/\/\ HoustonB, there is an alleged child molester living within twenty-five miles of your home that the police are trying to find. You won't mind if the authorities visit your house unannounced to search the contents, check the files on your computer, and see what reading material you have, right? If you don't like that idea you're obviously pro-molestation. It's for the children, after all.
By the way, HoustonB, one of the innocent drivers immobilized by the police could be a heart surgeon on her way to the hospital for an emergency transplant. Now this doctor has to sit and wait for her car to be "reenaged" so she can continue to the operating room. Oopsie, too late! The 44-year-old father of three who needed the donated heart died on the table! Everyone go home. At least they caught a person driving an unregistered car with a broken turn signal and only a single innocent person had to die five miles away. Are you happy with that result, HoustonB?
Do you get it yet? Punishment can't be administered with a broad brush. Two women caused that accident and those two should pay for their mistake. Catch them, fine them, jail them, and put them on probation. Don't dream-up ways to pull innocent people into the dragnet.
Blue Jays
04-29-07, 03:38 PM
HoustonB, to address your incorrect concerns about "my lack of humanity" where you wrongfully libeled me... I founded a memorial scholarship for a student who died from my school that now has $48,500 in endowment...all secured through charitable donations. I have volunteered to pick-up unwanted bicycles to repaint and repair before being given to homeless people so they have viable sources of transportation for jobs. It also allows them to attend alcohol/drug counseling. Lastly, as an accomplished motorcycle racer who understands cycling, I have volunteered my services at approximately thirty bicycle roadraces to assist law enforcement in protecting cyclists.The simple fact-of-the-matter is I've got the room to talk.
HoustonB
04-29-07, 03:52 PM
HoustonB, there is an alleged child molester living within twenty-five miles of your home that the police are trying to find. You won't mind if the authorities visit your house unannounced to search the contents, check the files on your computer, and see what reading material you have, right? If you don't like that idea you're obviously pro-molestation. It's for the children, after all.
If I or anyone in my home matches the profile of the alleged child molester then my door is open to the authorities 24/7 - and I will have tea and biscuits waiting for them. Seriously, is this your idea of argument?By the way, HoustonB, one of the innocent drivers immobilized by the police could be a heart surgeon on her way to the hospital for an emergency transplant. Now this doctor has to sit and wait for her car to be "reenaged" so she can continue to the operating room. Oopsie, too late! The 44-year-old father of three who needed the donated heart died on the table! Everyone go home. At least they caught a person driving an unregistered car with a broken turn signal and only a single innocent person had to die five miles away. Are you happy with that result, HoustonB?Obviously it would be an oversight if vehicles operated by the police, fire, paramedics, DOCTORS et al were not exceptions.Do you get it yet? Punishment can't be administered with a broad brush. Two women caused that accident and those two should pay for their mistake. Catch them, fine them, jail them, and put them on probation. Don't dream-up ways to pull innocent people into the dragnet.You are completely hung up on a few minutes of inconvenience being a form of mass punishment. Prevention is usually better than cure. Your focus is obviously on making sure the guilty are punished after-the-fact. My focus would be on prevention. It is refreshing to see such deep consideration of the victims.
wfin2004
04-29-07, 04:23 PM
Prevention is usually better than cure. Your focus is obviously on making sure the guilty are punished after-the-fact. My focus would be on prevention. It is refreshing to see such deep consideration of the victims.
Prevention is usually better than a cure is a true fact HoustonB. Your focus is obviously on making sure the innocent are punished before any facts. Your focus would be on the inconvienance of an entire city. It is nauseating to see such a deep inconsideration of the masses.
Blue Jays
04-29-07, 05:12 PM
You're in an academic hole, stop digging immediately. HoustonB, the alleged child molester is a brown-haired male between the ages of 35-55 years of age...the police would like to enter your home now. HoustonB, the surgeon driving to the hospital was driving her husband's Porsche 911. He happens to be a software executive whose technology enables the hospital's mainframe computer to backup and restore critical records. Does his car get an exemption, too? Just hers because she is the surgeon in the family? Don't you get it? It's impossible to manage all the permutations of this socialist plan.
Yes, we're in agreement my focus is on punishing people after they commit crimes rather than throwing a lasso around innocents in public. Should we also handcuff all airline passengers to prevent terrorist attack? Hey, it's prevention, right HoustonB?You obviously forgot to address your outrageous libelous statements about me, too.
juiceranch
04-29-07, 05:31 PM
I have experienced numerous occasions on the highway, when traffic will come to a complete standstill (thats zero miles an hour to you), and for no apparent reason. Then a moment later we are moving again and back to 65 or 70 miles an hour. Amazing, everybody manages to change speed, how on earth do they do it?
Yet in your scenario above, certain death of 113 people is likely in (say) a 25 mph zone. I don't know about you but when I see emergency vehicle lights ahead OR stationary traffic, I am going to stop and wait - feel free to blow through at 65.
True. If grandma sees grandma turning the corner, then grandma will slow down to prevent a collision, even if she is a handicapped grandma. Don't underestimate grandma drivers.
Blue Jays
04-29-07, 05:34 PM
The only guilty people responsible for the deaths of the cyclists were the two women...and they were caught.
HoustonB
04-29-07, 05:41 PM
Prevention is usually better than a cure is a true fact HoustonB. Your focus is obviously on making sure the innocent are punished before any facts. Your focus would be on the inconvienance of an entire city. It is nauseating to see such a deep inconsideration of the masses.
I am flattered, you paraphrased my own post, how sweet.
I'm curious what would get your blood pressure up higher, asking you how hot your 2 neurons are running, or asking if you are accustomed to being ignored?
Edit: I guess you did not know you were being ignored. My grandmother was correct, ignorance really is bliss.
Blue Jays
04-29-07, 05:48 PM
HoustonB, let's take it a step further. You are driving a family member to the hospital for a medical emergency when your car is disabled by a police officer a quarter-mile up the road stopping someone with expired license plates who ran a stopsign. In the time that it takes you to call 9-1-1, explain your urgent situation, and get your car turned-on, your daughter suffers minor brain damage which causes physical impairment.
As an alternate approach, try running up to a police officer in the midst of an arrest shouting frantically and breathlessly trying to state your case and see what that gets you. They will draw their weapons and tell you to interlace your fingers behind your head while laying facedown on the pavement with your feet crossed. Meanwhile, your poor daughter is still suffering in the car while HoustonB is trying to have roadside negotiations with a police officer. Too bad that time wasn't spent driving to the hospital.
This is why law enforcement focuses on apprehending the guilty with minimal impact on innocent bystanders. That idea doesn't scale to the real world and would almost certainly result in injury and death.
wfin2004
04-29-07, 06:13 PM
I am flattered, you paraphrased my own post, how sweet.
I'm curious what would get your blood pressure up higher, asking you how hot your 2 neurons are running, or asking if you are accustomed to being ignored?
Edit: I guess you did not know you were being ignored. My grandmother was correct, ignorance really is bliss.
What, do you think I am stupid? I was trying your patience and you know what? I won! Everyone else thinks your juvenile brainstorm is moronic as well as I do.
HoustonB
04-29-07, 06:17 PM
HoustonB, let's take it a step further. You are driving a family member to the hospital for a medical emergency when your car is disabled by a police officer a quarter-mile up the road stopping someone with expired license plates who ran a stopsign. In the time that it takes you to call 9-1-1, explain your urgent situation, and get your car turned-on, your daughter suffers minor brain damage which causes physical impairment.
As an alternate approach, try running up to a police officer in the midst of an arrest shouting frantically and breathlessly trying to state your case and see what that gets you. They will draw their weapons and tell you to interlace your fingers behind your head while laying facedown on the pavement with your feet crossed. Meanwhile, your daughter is still suffering in the car.
This is why law enforcement focuses on apprehending the guilty with minimal impact on innocent bystanders. That idea doesn't scale to the real world and would almost certainly result in injury and death.Radio devices can be made directional - would it make you happy if you had some assurance that only 1 vehicle was likely to be inconvenienced?
Blue Jays
04-29-07, 06:34 PM
"...High speed chasing, powerful cars, sirens and lights are all about keeping macho cops happy.
A simple and incredibly cheap technology solution would allow a cop on foot, bicycle or car to apprehend any motorist. The cop presses a button and all private motor vehicles within 100 meters lose engine power for a few minutes (but not brakes or power steering).
ANY vehicle that has had the device compromised and fails to stop, would be open-season for deadly force – lets call it natural selection..."HoustonB, so which is going to be for you? Directional radio signals to disable a single car? Or your earlier comments from this thread where all cars are disabled and people who don't stop for reasons unknown are shot by the police?
HoustonB
04-29-07, 06:58 PM
HoustonB, so which is going to be for you? Directional radio signals to disable a single car? Or your earlier comments from this thread where all cars are disabled and people who don't stop for reasons unknown are shot by the police?
Well usually version 2 is better than version 1 - so I would go with directional, range up to 500m with a 25 degree spread. No make that a 20 degree spread. hmmm maybe 22 degrees is better. With a little luck only 1 or 2 cars will be affected and no one gets brain damage.
I will ask you again - if only 1 vehicle is affected, does that make this idea more acceptable to you?
Blue Jays
04-29-07, 07:06 PM
If police disable a single vehicle, it's impacting only the guilty party, which is what wfin2004 and I illustrated for you all along.