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I did the Palmer Library RR over the weekend. Something like 150 guys in the field and one lane of road to work with. The final lap I got absorbed back into the peleton, and because everyone was forced so tightly together I couldn't find enough holes to move up.
In situations like the above, where moving up otherwise is next to impossible without breaking the yellow line rule, is it acceptible in higher cat races to gently push guys out of the way to create openings? I'm not talking anything violent, just a gentle push on the hip to get a little room to move up through. Generally I'm against such shenanigans, but it seems like it may be useful in certain situations.
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a bad peach could part the peloton like the red sea
So what you're saying is that I should carry a sack full of moldy peaches to throw at the other riders?
That could slow me down going uphill.
So what you're saying is that I should carry a sack full of moldy peaches to throw at the other riders?
That could slow me down going uphill.
Lemond's "bad peach" story...
If you and other riders are sliding back in the pack, that means just as many riders are moving up. You just have to find the line that's moving forward and get in it. Easier said than done, of course.
Lemond's "bad peach" story...
I just had to Google that one while eating an orange. :eek:
Then there’s the rotten peach story: seems our hero got a hold of a bad peach before the start of a Stage One, one year at the Tour. Soon enough the chemistry kicked in and it was time for a big number two. Unfortunately he was well into the stage so Lemond grabbed a teammate’s hat and frantically tried to stuff it down his bibs to catch the fallout. Too late. He gets a bib short full. At this point the Lycra begins to fail and there’s massive fallout onto his rear wheel. Now picture a really rainy day and the spray that comes off a road bike’s wheel. Now you’ll understand why the peleton parted like the Red Sea. But there’s more. LeMond made it to the finish but was still in critical need of a restroom. He dashed to the team van, jumped into the toilet room only to see that said tool of necessity was removed and the small area was now a closet containing stacks of Laurent Fignon post cards (they were teammates at one time). So according to Lemond, he made a chair out of the cards with a “dug out center” and spent the next hour in there.
Copied from here (http://thisjustin.bicycling.com/2007/02/index.html).
and i thought Ullrich was original in his hatcrapper story...
In higher cat races (like a 1/2/3) if people think you deserve to be up front you will be able to get away with nudging. Being a 3 in a race like that, they'll probably either be nice and say something like F off or be cruel and simply shove you.
In a 3 race, you can try, though I would suggest that not all 3s will be prepared to handled bumping and leaning. I clearly remember the first time I raced Palmer in the 3/4 my teamate and leadout took me up the curb on the final climb (its one of those angled/rounded ones). When we finally got close enough to begin the sprint he tried exactly what you said, and the guy whom he politely nudged nearly sent him into the bushes. Sans my leadout I started my sprint on the curb and less gently slammed my self into the next gentleman. He wasn't holy set for that one, grabbed his brakes, locked his bar into my arm. The ensuing moment blurs but I know I was sprinting one handed for a moment, then unclipped one pedal for a second then just went harder. 6th and no blood, a rather surprising result all things given.
Just be prepared to have a very pissed off 30 or 40 something yelling at you about how you might have wrecked or nearly wrecked his weekend.
In higher cat races (like a 1/2/3)
[SNIP]
Just be prepared to have a very pissed off 30 or 40 something yelling at you about how you might have wrecked or nearly wrecked his weekend.
...and his $8000 bike
Yea, these days people have become very sensitive about being touched in the pack. If I think someone isn't aware I'm overlapping their wheel, I'll tap them on the butt, but sometimes they take it very personal. Pushing someone out of the way is best reserved for those who are willing to deal with what might be some unpleasant consequences.
So, The Cypress, any advice on this from the fields up there?
;)
Seriously though, I think you just need to edge in on the guys who are moving up, then do a little more work in the wind to hold position in the top 10. If you get forced to the very front, don't pull the pack (do mini attacks off the front instead), unless you're trying to initiate an organized chase.
The real question is:
Why were you in the back to begin with?
Got into a very short lived break, sat up and let myself be absorbed to recover, guys moved up on the right and left while I was boxed in, went from front to middle of the pack fairly quick. Final 20mi was coming up and everyone was riding tight and trying to move up, and unless you were willing to break the double yellow rule you really weren't gonna do much moving up. My pack riding skills aren't the best, but there weren't very many opportunities. At one point I started moving up on the left when the pack spread out, only to have one of the motorcycles in the motorcade stop right in front of us and yell at us to keep right, as I guess we had gone over the single lane we were allowed to use. Bah.
Regardless of why I wound up mid pack, I just wanna know if its considered foul play to move up by nudging people out of the way.
I was blocked in the sprint yesterday and was tapping the guy on the hip for him to get out of the way. Then I tried verbal encouragement. Both had no avail. I then (without being seen) hopped the double yellow and made sure to come back across as close to his front wheel as possible.
I need to write a damned race report.
In a crowded field, I guess just muscle your way through. It pisses people off, but they will forget about it.
I just tell people to move out of the way because once I start coming through, I can't stop. Same with other things in life.
I just tell people to move out of the way because once I start coming through, I can't stop. Same with other things in life.
This actually works in races???
I just tell people to move out of the way because once I start coming through, I can't stop. Same with other things in life
You actually say dumb crap like that off the internet?
Regardless of why I wound up mid pack, I just wanna know if its considered foul play to move up by nudging people out of the way.
No, it's not foul play. But realize that few lower cat riders are used to the contact and are not exactly the greatest bike handlers (remember the thread about handling drills, where guys come up from behind and hit your arms?) so nudging them might cause a wreck that could involve you.
Better to get right to the front and stay there.
Better yet is if the road's that narrow that your race director/promoter limits the field for safety.
No, it's not foul play. But realize that few lower cat riders are used to the contact and are not exactly the greatest bike handlers (remember the thread about handling drills, where guys come up from behind and hit your arms?) so nudging them might cause a wreck that could involve you.
Better to get right to the front and stay there.
+1 to all of this. You can get away with a bit of push and shove in higher cat fields but the lower grades tend to be a bit nervous. From what I can gather a bit of a nudge is less acceptable in the US than it is in Oz, probably because a lot of Aussies have track backgrounds, though what I could get away with 15 years ago seems to be frowned upon now. :D
Practice bumping with your mates when you are out training. Don't use your elbow either. It throws you off balance IMO and if some smartass decides to ride into your elbow you're toast. Use your shoulder or upper arm. Don't lean too far over/put to much weight on the rider when doing this as if the guy you are leaning on moves you will fall off. If you get a bit of practice on taking and dishing out a bump it will give you confidence to hold your position in the bunch when racing.
Penguin, have you ever heard of the old trick of 'swinging on the wheel'?
Don't lean too far over/put to much weight on the rider when doing this as if the guy you are leaning on moves you will fall off.
Isn't that the Robbie McEwen move that got him a relegation in Stage 3 of the 2005 TdF? ;)
Penguin, have you ever heard of the old trick of 'swinging on the wheel'?
I have not! Please explain.
If you and other riders are sliding back in the pack, that means just as many riders are moving up. You just have to find the line that's moving forward and get in it. Easier said than done, of course.
+1.
Or just dont fall back. It's amateur bike racing for crying out loud, I think you're a Cat 3 and pretty young, if you've the potential to go up the Categories and turn pro, you should be able to maintain you're position at the front and not have to resort to a-hole tactics like "push and shove" to move up. If you cant maintain your position, well, you're probably going to have to work for a living like most of the rest of your competition (including me) and therefore it's not acceptable to do things that put yourself and others at a greater risk.
"Verbal motivation" is fine - effective to - as are touching to let folks know your there, bumping/brushing others, but straight up pushing and shoving sucks.
Pinky - riding up the curb and jumping back into the field? WTF is that? Someone should have smacked you after a move like that. I hope that was a pro race where folks had paychecks on the line, otherwise from what you describe, that's a bonehead move IMO.
The dude that says he tells folks to get out of the way, he cant stop - that's idiotic.
"Boxed in" - there's no such thing, especially in a small field. You were out of position, race better before the sprint and you dont have these problems.
Again, it's amateur bike racing. From what I can tell by reading all the posts on this board, none of us are racing for our livelihood, and we all have to go home to our families and to work, etc. Keep in mind that this is the same for most of your competition and there's always another race to win, unless you crash yourself to an injury.
There, I've been up all night with a screaming baby and now that I've ranted I feel better. I'm going to go have some coffee before I call any clients this morning.:)
I have not! Please explain.
Be careful using it in lower cat races. They will wonder WTF is going on. It not dangerous as long as you aren't extreme about it.:) Normally you'd only use this in the last few laps of a crit or the last couple of kms of a road race when everyone is jockeying for position.
Its a trick you do to give yourself a bit of room in the bunch and helps to stop you getting boxed in. This is advanced tactics stuff I learned off knarly old mad dog ex-pros.;) It works better on the track but translates on the road as well. Basically when you are following the wheel in front you don't ride in a straight line. You 'float' or 'swing' behind the wheel, maybe 6 inches (any more and you might get yelled at!) either side of the wheel in front. You don't need to be violent about it or swing madly from side to side. A gentle movement from side to side is more then often enough. I've seen guys swing 1m or more but they normally get in trouble for it - thats mad dog stuff. Swinging makes it hard for the rider behind to follow the wheel and gives you a little bit of room around you. Watch any overhead shots of the lead up to a bunch sprint in the Tour or Giro, or watch a video of the Kieran from the worlds or Olympics. There are always a few guys doing it. Normally it will be one of the top sprinters teammates following his team leader and protecting his wheel. Often it is one of the good sprinters doing it so if a line of riders come past they have to ride around the rider who is swinging, giving the swinging rider a chance to push into the line going past. McEwen is a master at it. Most of the top sprinters do it at some point or another.
Especially in the lower cat races, always move with the wheel going forward to avoid getting boxed in. These races tend to be stop/start, unlike the higher categories where the pace is on all the time.
+1.
....
I don't see what the big problem is, provided others in the field are used to it. But, I'm getting the vibe that at the cat3 level its simply dangerous and is just gonna piss people off.
Fair enough. This is why I asked before simply going out and doing it.
Be careful using it in lower cat races. They will wonder WTF is going on. It not dangerous as long as you aren't extreme about it.
Its a trick you do to give yourself a bit of room in the bunch and helps to stop you getting boxed in. This is advanced tactics stuff I learned off knarly old mad dog ex-pros.;) It works better on the track but translates on the road as well. Basically when you are following the wheel in front you don't ride in a straight line. You 'float' or 'swing' behind the wheel, maybe 6 inches (any more and you might get yelled at!) either side of the wheel in front. I've seen guys swing 1m or more but they normally get in trouble for it. It makes it hard for the rider behind to follow the wheel and gives you a little bit of room around you. Watch any overhead shots of the lead up to a bunch sprint in the Tour or Giro, or watch a video of the Kieran from the worlds or Olympics. There are always a few guys doing it. Normally it will be one of the top sprinters teammates following his team leader and protecting his wheel. Often it is one of the good sprinters doing it so if a line of riders come past they have to ride around the rider who is swinging, giving the swinging rider a chance to push into the line going past. McEwen is a master at it. Most of the top sprinters do it at some point or another.
Interesting. You know, I've never done that in a race...
I do it in high-traffic areas with narrow shoulders (there used to be a pinch-point on a highway near my and EDR's houses -- MO Pac @ WM-Cannon). I'd just swing around on the (narrow) shoulder, and let the cars think I didn't know what I was doing. I got a lot wider berth that way, without actually getting in anyone's way.
One trick I use in races is to draft out of the draft a bit to block a lane, but not so much that someone can move in on me from the other side. One thing about overlapping wheels a bit is that you can draft much closer, but you have to be ready to respond in an instant. Drafting closer gives you the higher-ground advantage to anyone trying to edge in (you're further in front, so they can't do anything). This will also get people to give you some room because it looks dangerous (I've never crashed or caused one doing this).
Swinging... I like it.
^^KP - what I'm saying is you shouldn't have to.
I should have read your question better instead of just ranting. "Gentle push" on the hip, that's usually OK. It shouldnt be dangerous, but is going to tick some people off. Honestly, stuff like that doesn't bother me so much, especially if I know who it is (trust factor I guess), but at the same time, I'm not going to move because someone starts pushing on my hip.
Isn't that the Robbie McEwen move that got him a relegation in Stage 3 of the 2005 TdF? ;)
McEwen likes to push the envelope.;) I think he forgets not everyone can handle a bike as well as he does.
Anyway, I said practice it out training, not in a race.:p
Interesting. You know, I've never done that in a race...
............
One trick I use in races is to draft out of the draft a bit to block a lane, but not so much that someone can move in on me from the other side. ............
Swinging... I like it.
Similar principle in that you are moving out to give yourself space in the bunch. As for swinging, remember you don't always need to do it, but its a handy tactic to have up your sleeve. Like anything, try it out training with your buddies before you try and put it into practice.
. but at the same time, I'm not going to move because someone starts pushing on my hip.
Exactly. If you push me (or yell at me to move) you're just making it clear you're there and trying to take my position. I want up front in this situation as much as you do. I'm not moving just to improve your race chances at the expense of mine. By pushing or yelling, you're just putting me on notice to make sure not to let a gap open that you can take.
I think quietly finding the opening you can exploit is a better tactic. Now once you've got the opening and you're taking it, a little nudge, or a word, just to let the other guy know you're there and coming through is different.
I'm going to go have some coffee before I call any clients this morning.:)
Good rant!
Better make it decaf!
Be careful using it in lower cat races. They will wonder WTF is going on. It not dangerous as long as you aren't extreme about it.
Its a trick you do to give yourself a bit of room in the bunch and helps to stop you getting boxed in. This is advanced tactics stuff I learned off knarly old mad dog ex-pros. It works better on the track but translates on the road as well. Basically when you are following the wheel in front you don't ride in a straight line. You 'float' or 'swing' behind the wheel, maybe 6 inches (any more and you might get yelled at!) either side of the wheel in front. I've seen guys swing 1m or more but they normally get in trouble for it. It makes it hard for the rider behind to follow the wheel and gives you a little bit of room around you. Watch any overhead shots of the lead up to a bunch sprint in the Tour or Giro, or watch a video of the Kieran from the worlds or Olympics. There are always a few guys doing it. Normally it will be one of the top sprinters teammates following his team leader and protecting his wheel. Often it is one of the good sprinters doing it so if a line of riders come past they have to ride around the rider who is swinging, giving the swinging rider a chance to push into the line going past. McEwen is a master at it. Most of the top sprinters do it at some point or another.
Sounds good! I'll try it out on some training rides.
Isn't that the Robbie McEwen move that got him a relegation in Stage 3 of the 2005 TdF? ;)
No. Stewart O'Grady was hooking Robbie's bar (which it took lots of replays to catch), and Robbie was pushing back with his head to get clear. Robbie's retaliation move was all that was noticed, and he got relegated.
No. Stewart O'Grady was hooking Robbie's bar (which it took lots of replays to catch), and Robbie was pushing back with his head to get clear. Robbie's retaliation move was all that was noticed, and he got relegated.
Either way it made for some great photos
Guys are lining up 20 miles out? Sheesh, tough race. Meanwhile, check out who finished 4th. That boy is unreal. In our training race last night I was in the winning break with 4 FAST guys and he bridged across a gigantic gap (took him 5 miles to make it). The cat1 in our break was killing it to keep him from making contact, yet he still joined. Very impressive. He's got a real future.
Gotta love the "wheelie throw"
http://www.bikereg.com/Results/2007/04/images/palmer/3-4.png
Mark
If you're hands stay on the bars, almost anything goes.
and enough of this "we're only racing for socks" stuff. It's called RACING. It's competative. The whole point is to pummel all the people around you. If you just back down every time there is the slightest chance of you going down you'll never get anywhere.
Guys are lining up 20 miles out? Sheesh, tough race. Meanwhile, check out who finished 4th. That boy is unreal. In our training race last night I was in the winning break with 4 FAST guys and he bridged across a gigantic gap (took him 5 miles to make it). The cat1 in our break was killing it to keep him from making contact, yet he still joined. Very impressive. He's got a real future.
Gotta love the "wheelie throw"
http://www.bikereg.com/Results/2007/04/images/palmer/3-4.png
Mark
Yeah, it was odd. Laps 1 and 2 I could move up no problem, lap3 elbows were poppin out everywhere and all the holes dissappeared.
And that wheelie throw pwns. He's lucky he didn't flip his bike backwards.
Pros don't push through the middle. They come up the outsides of the bunch. If you try to push through the middle, it's a recipe for A)a crash, B) tangled equipment, C) yelling, D) an ass-kicking if you cause a crash, or E) all of the above.
Guys are lining up 20 miles out? Sheesh, tough race. Meanwhile, check out who finished 4th. That boy is unreal. In our training race last night I was in the winning break with 4 FAST guys and he bridged across a gigantic gap (took him 5 miles to make it). The cat1 in our break was killing it to keep him from making contact, yet he still joined. Very impressive. He's got a real future.
Gotta love the "wheelie throw"
http://www.bikereg.com/Results/2007/04/images/palmer/3-4.png
Mark
Is there some real benefit to the "wheelie throw"? It it tossing the bike forward at the line?
I'm gonna say "no." The idea is to throw your bike forward and not up. Now if the finish line were a foot off the ground ...
This guy was a little over zealous. He did however just win a bunch sprint from a field of over 100 ... impressive.
Mark
Is there some real benefit to the "wheelie throw"? It it tossing the bike forward at the line?
I'm gonna say "no." The idea is to throw your bike forward and not up. Now if the finish line were a foot off the ground ...
This guy was a little over zealous. He did however just win a bunch sprint from a field of over 100 ... impressive.
Mark
I can completely understand being that excited.
Considering what he did celebration is appropriate. :)
But I think you may lose a little forward momentum doing that.
I can do the "wheelie throw" part, just not everything else he did. :lol:
Same thing happened to me only it was in the 1st 10 km of a 60 km race. Instead of moving up to the front to prepair for my inevitable slip back through the pack on the upcomming hill, I was boxed out and could not move up. I was OTB sooner than later because of this.
I think that if I were to do the swing in a Collegiate race, I would be condemned for being sketchy and unable to hold a line. Even by the sketchy riders. I don't see "But Robbie McEwen does it" getting me out of it either!
It's easy to move up if you know what to do. There's no need to "push" your way up. I recently sat at the back of a group until I needed to move up. You start early. The field was at the max of 100 with narrow roads. If there's a hole, go for it. As everyone says, if you're not moving forwards, you're moving backwards. Be aggressive without being a donkey.
An update:
I was able to stay at and near the front easily today. Moving around in the pack was no issue. I have a feeling the sketchiness in the Palmer race freaked me out and kept me from wanting to move around.
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