"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - In all sports, rule violations that go unobserved by officials are not 'cheating'

After reading that amusing thread where Cypress violated the yellow line rule for 2 seconds to get position at the end of a P 1-2-3 road race, a little perspective is in order. Does anyone know ANY sport where minor infractions of rules don't occur all the time? in football there's holding in the interior line on every other play. In basketball the only fouls are the one the officials SEE and choose to call. Cypress' actions are what any competitive athlete is going to do come crunch time. He gets DQ'd? Whatever. No yellow line dodge, no placing in his race.

Spare me the sermonizing about how it's 'dangerous'. Maybe to Cypress. But I'm sure he looked up the road and made sure HE wasn't about to ride straight into an oncoming car endangering himself and others. Get a grip. He went over the yellow line, got his position, didn't endanger anyone and that's about all there is to it.

How many guys were in that race? 30? 24 of them finished behind Cypress. They all obeyed the yellow line rule. I'm sure they feel like solid citizens. Good for them. Cypress wanted to finish well. That's what bike RACERS do. Lance and E. Merckx would approve.

Cypress didn't get caught. He crossed the yellow line in the last 200 meters. No flag, no foul. He didn't hold up a 7/11. (That's what I'D have to do to get a place in a P-123 race).

+1

-1

I guess I'm a solid citizen.

Thank you.

-1

I guess I'm a solid citizen.

We'll have to work on that KP. In the meantime you may have to change your BF name to Non-Killer Instinct Penguin : ). You'll need more than big lungs and big heart in bike racing. Sometimes you need brass balls. I predict that if you stay in racing long enough you'll get sick of watching the Cypress types of the world beat you to the line and suddenly things like yellow line violations won't seem like war crimes to you. They are not. Don't worry, the officials will DQ you if they think you're out of line. That's THEIR job. You just want to beat the other mopes to the finish.

You're too nice for bike racing. Don't worry, I think the sport will beat that out of you. You have as much talent as Cypress. AND you're skinnier.

But alas, Pcad remains the fat, old, slow bike weenie with the way schwag wheels.

You have as much talent as Cypress. AND you're skinnier.



+1

Thank you.

I'm still not buying that cheeseass seatpost.

I'm still not buying that cheeseass seatpost.


You'll cave in eventually.

-1

I guess I'm a solid citizen.

I'm a solid citizen too....but I like to ocassionally drive like 140+ mph on the highway. Does that make me an evil person? :). I mean the "rules" clearly state I'm not supposed to go over the God-awful slow, "artificial" B.S. limit of 55-65 mph (that literally puts me to sleep, BTW....far and away more dangerous than "speeding").

Ah well....rules were made to be broken.

I am too unfamiliar with this situation to know if an advantage was gained by the person breaking the rule while those who chose not to break the rule were put at a positional disadvantage. If that is the case, though, I would have to say that a person with integrity would do the right thing even when no one is looking and admit that it is cheating when he was not caught.

I went over the sprinter's line during a race this weekend, which is grounds for disqualification. I got a warning which I think is more than fair as it was entirely unintentional.

For the record: The guy that I went around came in 3rd to DFL. Rather glad I went around him.

I am too unfamiliar with this situation to know if an advantage was gained by the person breaking the rule while those who chose not to break the rule were put at a positional disadvantage. If that is the case, though, I would have to say that a person with integrity would do the right thing even when no one is looking and admit that it is cheating when he was not caught.

It ain't golf dude.

Okay using Cypress' situation. If he had jumped the yellow line (which he freely admits) to gain position, and beat me because of it I would have protested his result. Personally I don't jump the yellow line, if I f'd up an didn't get the position I needed then it's my fault. If the guy that Cypress jumped was so slow he should have picked up on that during the race and not ended up on his wheel. I understand the frustration but as it was mentioned before position is part of the race craft. Sometimes you are in the right position and sometimes you are not. If a guy chops my front wheel on purpose you bet that I'll make sure he gets the same treatment from me the next race.

It doesn't surprise me that some people feel comfortable violating the rules. I do wonder however if they had been on the receiving end of the guy who gained position over them if they would feel so forgiving.

I'm more of the type of the person where I'd actually want to win by being the best, not by knowingly hindering someone who's clearly better than me for my own personal gain. Apparently the guy in front of Cypress was leaning more towards the latter.

It's not like we're racing to earn a friggin' living here.

I'm a solid citizen too....but I like to ocassionally drive like 140+ mph on the highway. Does that make me an evil person? . I mean the "rules" clearly state I'm not supposed to go over the God-awful slow, "artificial" B.S. limit of 55-65 mph (that literally puts me to sleep, BTW....far and away more dangerous than "speeding").

Ah well....rules were made to be broken.


Feck the law. I go 85 on the thruway.

IMO, sport is different. A sport is defined by its rules. Supposed to see how good you are at said sport within the scope of the rules laid down. You wouldn't use a PED just because you can get away with it, ehh (I'm aware that's an extreme example bordering on hyperbole)?

That said, if the whole damn field is going over the double yellow, I'd say feck it and use the whole road.
edit: This isn't a tacit admission that i'd use PED's.

I went over the sprinter's line during a race this weekend, which is grounds for disqualification. I got a warning which I think is more than fair as it was entirely unintentional.

I agree. Intentional violations should be grounds for a DQ.

For the record: The guy that I went around came in 3rd to DFL. Rather glad I went around him.

Next time read the race better and don't end up on his wheel. Let me ask you this lets say that he was part of a lead out train and you were on his wheel. He lets his guy slide through then shuts the door on you. Is that fair? Does this give you the right to break the rules because he didn't lead you out? I'm sorry but I really don't agree with this attitude that you get break the rules because you didn't read the race properly. You know I like you Cypress but in this case you are in the wrong.

I would cross the yellow line to get to my illicit doping doctor's car for a shot of EPO if I thought it would help me win a bicycle race. I would avoid detection by bribing race officials before hand.

So perhaps I am the wrong person to engage in this debate. But I would be a perfect fit in the UCI.

Next time read the race better and don't end up on his wheel. Let me ask you this lets say that he was part of a lead out train and you were on his wheel. He lets his guy slide through then shuts the door on you. Is that fair? Does this give you the right to break the rules because he didn't lead you out? I'm sorry but I really don't agree with this attitude that you get break the rules because you didn't read the race properly. You know I like you Cypress but in this case you are in the wrong.


I have never claimed to be in the right though.

If I was caught yellowing and relegated, I would accept my punishment as more than fair.

http://www.5ive-o.org/forum/images/smilies/soapbox.gif

Cypress didn't put anyone in harm's way by crossing the yellow line. The guy he passed wasn't even gunning for the win. And Cypress didn't even make top 5. Another way to interpret "i cut his front wheel as close as possible" is "I was aware that I had violated the yellow line rule and did my best to re-enter the correct lane at the earliest opportunity, keeping the safety of my fellow cyclists at the front of my mind the entire time".

Above all, it's freaking Montana - with 20 something people in the field, that only leaves about 30 other people in the entire state. Assuming the whole of the population is concentrated in and around the finishing area, and taking into consideration the fact that 85% of American households have cars, factoring in the average household of two parents and 2.5 children, that leaves like two cars that could have been oncoming.

Avoiding oncomming traffic isn't the point.

Avoiding oncomming traffic isn't the point.
Yes it is. Why don't you get it?????????? http://www.5ive-o.org/forum/images/smilies/extra4/ranting_1.gif

Its why the USCF made the rule, but its not the reason why I don't go over the yellow line.

Its why the USCF made the rule, but its not the reason why I don't go over the yellow line.

OK. I'll bite. So why DON'T you go over the yellow line?

Cypress didn't get caught. He crossed the yellow line in the last 200 meters. No flag, no foul. He didn't hold up a 7/11. (That's what I'D have to do to get a place in a P-123 race).

anyone else miss the key point: "crossed the line at 200m"


Maybe this only happens in Minnesota but where I race (All along the North East), within the final stretch (500-1000M) the yellow line rule goes out the door and everyone gets the full road for sprints. If the officials can't maintain a clear stretch forthe finish then they are the ones at fault.

Cuz I've integrity ;)

I feel it'd give me an unfair advantage over the field, as the majority won't cross the yellow line.

But as I said in another thread, I've been in a race where everyone disregarded the yellow line rule, so I went with it and rode wherever I wanted to ride on the road.

After reading that amusing thread where Cypress violated the yellow line rule for 2 seconds to get position at the end of a P 1-2-3 road race, a little perspective is in order. Does anyone know ANY sport where minor infractions of rules don't occur all the time? in football there's holding in the interior line on every other play. In basketball the only fouls are the one the officials SEE and choose to call. Cypress' actions are what any competitive athlete is going to do come crunch time. He gets DQ'd? Whatever. No yellow line dodge, no placing in his race.

Spare me the sermonizing about how it's 'dangerous'. Maybe to Cypress. But I'm sure he looked up the road and made sure HE wasn't about to ride straight into an oncoming car endangering himself and others. Get a grip. He went over the yellow line, got his position, didn't endanger anyone and that's about all there is to it.

How many guys were in that race? 30? 24 of them finished behind Cypress. They all obeyed the yellow line rule. I'm sure they feel like solid citizens. Good for them. Cypress wanted to finish well. That's what bike RACERS do. Lance and E. Merckx would approve.

Cypress didn't get caught. He crossed the yellow line in the last 200 meters. No flag, no foul. He didn't hold up a 7/11. (That's what I'D have to do to get a place in a P-123 race).

I hope you instill better morals in your kid than the ones you profess for yourself and others. I suppose, following your logic, that the accountant that skims a couple hundred thousand off for himself from his billionaire client is only committing a minor infraction. I guess it's all okay as long as A) it's not a major offense and B) you don't get caught.

anyone else miss the key point: "crossed the line at 200m"


Maybe this only happens in Minnesota but within the final stretch (500-1000M) the yellow line rule goes out the door and everyone gets the full road for sprints. If the officials can't maintain a clear stretch of road by the finish then that is there fault.

Much like the grammar gaffes are you're fault.

In principle I'd agree, any official who DQ's a guy for yellow line in the last 200 meters should be taken out back and beaten to death with the business end of an F me pump (not some cylindrical inflation device).

Much like the grammar gaffes are you're fault.

In principle I'd agree, any official who DQ's a guy for yellow line in the last 200 meters should be taken out back and beaten to death with the business end of an F me pump (not some cylindrical inflation device).


lol, I've been studying Bio Chem. for the last 8 hours and my eyes are bleeding (sorry Penguin not a result of intervals).

In principle I'd agree, any official who DQ's a guy for yellow line in the last 200 meters should be taken out back and beaten to death with the business end of an F me pump (not some cylindrical inflation device).
You realize it's the promoter, not the official who is responsible for getting road permits (which would say whether the whole road can be used in the final 200m or whatever)? Why do you think the officials should be punished for enforcing the rules?

You realize it's the promoter, not the official who is responsible for getting road permits (which would say whether the whole road can be used in the final 200m or whatever)? Why do you think the officials should be punished for enforcing the rules?

What part of the tried and true American custom of yelling 'KILL THE UMPIRE' is elusive for you?

Zebras are fair targets. And weathermen.

I don't make the rules. I'm just an impartial observer.

What part of the tried and true American custom of yelling 'KILL THE UMPIRE' is elusive for you?

Zebras are fair targets. And weathermen.

I don't make the rules. I'm just an impartial observer.
There's a hierarchy of *****ing here. It goes:
Participant/Athlete/Coach ---- Referee/Official ---- Organizer/Rules Creator ---- God/Allah/Buddha/whatever

I may have missed a few rungs, but the ladder is clear. Doesn't matter who is to blame, but the more people you can piss off and the more attention you can get while complaining, the better?

anyone else miss the key point: "crossed the line at 200m"


Maybe this only happens in Minnesota but where I race (All along the North East), within the final stretch (500-1000M) the yellow line rule goes out the door and everyone gets the full road for sprints. If the officials can't maintain a clear stretch forthe finish then they are the ones at fault.


In his race I don't think the road opened up, in the pic he posted earlier everyone is crossing the finish line on one side of the yellow.

Okay using Cypress' situation. If he had jumped the yellow line (which he freely admits) to gain position, and beat me because of it I would have protested his result. Personally I don't jump the yellow line, if I f'd up an didn't get the position I needed then it's my fault. If the guy that Cypress jumped was so slow he should have picked up on that during the race and not ended up on his wheel. I understand the frustration but as it was mentioned before position is part of the race craft. Sometimes you are in the right position and sometimes you are not. If a guy chops my front wheel on purpose you bet that I'll make sure he gets the same treatment from me the next race.

It doesn't surprise me that some people feel comfortable violating the rules. I do wonder however if they had been on the receiving end of the guy who gained position over them if they would feel so forgiving.
+1

In his race I don't think the road opened up, in the pic he posted earlier everyone is crossing the finish line on one side of the yellow.


I realize that, I was just posting to how ridiculous it is to have a FLAT R.R, especially Pro,1,2,3 sprint finish be limited to 1 lane. I am surprised the race promoter wasn't able or willing to shut down the last 200-500M for a pack finish.

It ain't golf dude.

Funny you should mention golf. That is the sport where the rules are sacred.

Funny you should mention golf. That is the sport where the rules are sacred.

hence the snide remark.

Crossing the yellow line is gonna happen. Diving into another rider's front wheel is definitely uncool though. That's called idiocy. If you want to come around, so be it, but it's not his responsibility to let you, and you shouldn't retaliate if he doesn't. When there are accidents in a bike race, people go home in ambulances. If you're not sprinting for more than the medical costs you would spend getting to, from, and staying in the hospital, sprint safe.

I realize that, I was just posting to how ridiculous it is to have a FLAT R.R, especially Pro,1,2,3 sprint finish be limited to 1 lane. I am surprised the race promoter wasn't able or willing to shut down the last 200-500M for a pack finish.
Oh OK.

That is insane that the road was not opened up for the finish.

I have never claimed to be in the right though.

If I was caught yellowing and relegated, I would accept my punishment as more than fair.

Then you broke the rules on purpose (cheated intentionally) and know that you should have been relegated. Since you got away with it, you will more than likely become emboldened by this and eventually it will be your downfall.....

I guess it's all okay as long as A) it's not a major offense and B) you don't get caught.

In America that is correct....

I was in a three man breakaway one time and we were fighting a hellacious cross wind that kept throwing us sideways and consequently, we would occasionally drift over the yellow line. There was an official in a car following us and we kept getting warned even though anybody could clearly see that we were just doing everything we could to keep our bikes upright and on the road and we weren't gaining any advantage in the three man break by crossing the line.

Long story short, there was a big screaming match after the finish because the following referee demanded that all three of us be disqualified. Luckily, the head referee was a little more sensible and let us off with a scolding. Anyway, that wind was a ***** and that's my story and I'm sticking to it. ;)

In the grand scheme of things perhaps Cypress has broken even. He did get relegated for taking his hands off the bars crossing the line for a win last year if I recall correctly. I thought that was chicken-"droppings".

I was in a three man breakaway one time and we were fighting a hellacious cross wind that kept throwing us sideways and consequently, we would occasionally drift over the yellow line. There was an official in a car following us and we kept getting warned even though anybody could clearly see that we were just doing everything we could to keep our bikes upright and on the road and we weren't gaining any advantage in the three man break by crossing the line.

Long story short, there was a big screaming match after the finish because the following referee demanded that all three of us be disqualified. Luckily, the head referee was a little more sensible and let us off with a scolding. Anyway, that wind was a ***** and that's my story and I'm sticking to it. ;)Yea, well if I'm on the outside of a group and the whole group comes into me and I have to chose between leaning on them to hold them in or drifting over the yellow line, I think I'll chose the latter. These are really the kind of situations where there is no harm, no foul. Jumping out around someone to get ahead in a sprint is pretty aggregious. That's akin to moving your ball to get a better lie.

No, NO, NO!

1) I'd agree this was a lousy set up for the race, the whole road should be open at the start/finish.

2) given that it wasn't, there's an important reason to strictly enforce the center line rule. if people are allowed to advance position in violation of the center line rule, it creates a perverse incentive for others to violate it, and it puts the enitre pack's safety at jeopardy.

Also when you kill yourself violating the center line rule, you put the race your in and the entire sport in jeopardy. Our ability to race on public roads is something we have a tenuous hold on from both an insurance, and a permit point of view. If we want to keeproad racing we need to paly by the rules.

Also when you kill yourself violating the center line rule...Isn't this called "culling the herd", or "natural selection"? Give new meaning to the phrase, "made the selection".;)

Struggling not to mention what to do with someone's panties...

I witnessed *THE REASON* for the yellow line rule last summer at a RR finishing on a somewhat remote road which sees maybe a few cars every hour, PEAK.

I'm about 50' back from the finish line. I look to my left, here comes the Elite 4s field for the final sprint. They are hammering, and sure enough, someone goes over the yellow line cuz they're gonna win those inner tubes dammit! Quick look to my right, HOLY $&!# A HUMMER AT THE LINE AND HE'S NOT STOPPING SOMEONE'S GONNA GET HIT. People yelling alternatively at the riders and the Hummer driver; Hummer driver is not having any of that from these ***** bike riding **** and guns it. Rider who crossed the line is INCHES away from becoming a hood ornament, ends up crossing the line 6th or something, but you bet your bottom dollar the officials called the yellow line rule on him.

Cypress didn't get caught.... No flag, no foul. He didn't hold up a 7/11.

<It's only wrong if you get caught.>

This type of rationalization is why many school boards have felt it necessary to implement "ethics" classes in high school.

Right is right. Wrong is wrong. Regardless of whether one gets caught.

However, there are big 'wrongs', and there are little 'wrongs', and we shouldn't lump them all into the same category.

FWIW, Cypress' wrong wasn't such a big deal in the grand scheme of things, IMO.

Bob