Vehicular Cycling (VC) - VC acolytes, followers, disciples, etc.

I have some serious questions for you. If you see a cyclist riding in a non VC or what you consider or interprite to be a non VC manner & if you can catch up to them do you stop them & educate them on how to ride VC? I am talking about if they are riding with traffic obeying traffic laws but as far as you can tell they are not riding VC or what you consider to be VC. If you do why?

I can tell you right now if you stopped me & tried to "educate" me on riding VC I'd tell you to **** off & worry about your own riding & let me worry about mine, especially if I'm not doing anything wrong obeying traffic laws, etc.

Before you say anything about it, yes it is possible to not ride VC, still ride on the roadways & obey all traffic laws. I know I've had to do it when I have needed to.

So would you or have you done this? If you have what was the reaction from the person you educated?

The only thing I do is yell 'wrong way' to wrong way riders I pass.

I don't even discuss or mention vehicular cycling when out riding with friends who are doing things non vehicular, in fact I even follow them if they are in the lead and their position doesn't severely compromise my safety. But when I am in the lead, I make a line as I do solo (with the added consideration of being a 'longer' vehicle made up of several individual drivers of course) Sometimes they follow, sometimes they don't. We don't talk about it over beers afterward.

edit: The friends I ride with don't do stupid stuff like running lights, etc. Usually the things they do I wouldn't do solo include filtering forward when not needed, riding a bit closer to curb than my comfort zone.

Al

I have some serious questions for you. If you see a cyclist riding in a non VC or what you consider or interprite to be a non VC manner & if you can catch up to them do you stop them & educate them on how to ride VC? I am talking about if they are riding with traffic obeying traffic laws but as far as you can tell they are not riding VC or what you consider to be VC. If you do why?
I don't. One reason I don't is because it would be impossible: I would have to catch up and stop and educate almost every cyclist I see.


I can tell you right now if you stopped me & tried to "educate" me on riding VC I'd tell you to **** off & worry about your own riding & let me worry about mine, especially if I'm not doing anything wrong obeying traffic laws, etc.

Before you say anything about it, yes it is possible to not ride VC, still ride on the roadways & obey all traffic laws. I know I've had to do it when I have needed to.

So would you or have you done this? If you have what was the reaction from the person you educated?
The closest I've come to doing this in the last few years is one time that happened just a few weeks ago when I saw a cyclist up ahead riding without lights. When I caught up with her, I saw that she had a rear light, but it was off, and I asked if her batteries had died. She said yes. I said, "too bad, please be careful".

Other than that, I have said "good job with the lane positioning" a few times when I see a cyclist positioning him or herself on the left side of wide straight-or-right lane at a red light, thus making room for right turners to turn right on red.

The only thing I do is yell 'wrong way' to wrong way riders I pass.

I forgot! I do do that too.

Also, when riding in groups, I will yell "five feet from the cars please" when someone in front of me is riding in the door zone, and I also yell "aim for the bike lane" when the head of the paceline is headed for the RTOL instead of the BL to the left of it at an intersection where we go straight.

You just gotta laugh, considering N_C was the guy who used to advocate handing out organ-donor cards to people who refused to wear a helmet at RAGBRAI. He's kinda reminding me of Dan Akryod after he got framed in Trading Places. :lol:

The only thing I do is yell "wrong way" to the cyclists riding against traffic, on my side of the road, because they affect me directly.

The best way to advocate better cycling is to do it well.

If beginning cyclists ask me to take them for a ride, I establish the ground rules in advance, i.e. use the correct lane, no running red lights and stop signs. I may explain why I'm doing something different than they are. Sometimes a beginning cyclist riding with me breaks the law or does something potentially very dangerous, causing problems for the group. I may try to explain the problem to them, but it may not go easily, especially with people older than I am.

My strategy right now is to try to recruit beginners into Road 1 classes. That way they can get the whole picture ahead of time, and any advice I give will be listened to.

You just gotta laugh, considering N_C was the guy who used to advocate handing out organ-donor cards to people who refused to wear a helmet at RAGBRAI. He's kinda reminding me of Dan Akryod after he got framed in Trading Places. :lol:
Yeah, I'm not sure which N_C I prefer.... he has such a sense of (equity/fairness/justness)[select one] but there is something else that is a little incongruous about him being anti-VC-ideology....

HH - "FIVE FEET FROM THE PARKED CARS!" I Swear he's admitted yelling at cyclists on group rides. sure way to have someone go 'Team Cinzano' on him, IMO.

HH - "FIVE FEET FROM THE PARKED CARS!" I Swear he's admitted yelling at cyclists on group rides. sure way to have someone go 'Team Cinzano' on him, IMO. Do you ride in pacelines and/or tight/fast pelotons that average 20 mph over hilly terrain much, Bek?

Something tells me you don't, and if you did, most of the yelling would be directed at you.

John "If you don't agree with me you've got a social disease that I made up" Forester

Needs to take a Dale Carnegie course (http://www.westegg.com/unmaintained/carnegie/win-friends.html)

Do you ride in pacelines and/or tight/fast pelotons that average 20 mph over hilly terrain much, Bek?

Something tells me you don't, and if you did, most of the yelling would be directed at you.

Something tells me you don't either, mr. head. you're a club fred weekender, though, that's for sure.

Nobody's yelling at me on group rides. The group rides I ride with average 22 MPH.

The group rides I ride with average 22 MPH.
Hmm. What bike do you use on those rides? Do these guys race? What cats? Do you?

nope. MYOB is my motto.

I once had a cantankerous roadie yell "Signal your turns" as I nodded to him while turning right.

The irony is that I had just signalled the turn.

With that idea in mind, I don't tell anyone how to ride while I'm riding. I may have missed something they did. The only thing I do is yell "Wrong way" to the obvious offenders, but even that is rare, as they're usually not in the road.

It's not my responsibility to babysit.

Is it true? Is HH actually trying to pry out some street cred out of another cyclist when he won't answer questions as to his experience himself?

Somehow, in living carless and bike touring for a week from Seattle to Portland, I don't think that Bek needs to answer to HH's challenge.

Oh yea, I don't tell anyone how to ride their bike. It's not my place. I merely show by example.

I was once in the shared thru/RT lane adjacent to a LTOL. I was left biased about 3-4' to the right of the stripe separating thru from LT lane, with bike positioned directly over center of inductive sensor (they are left biased in shared thru/RT lanes). A decked out older commuter on bike pulled into left turn lane next to me and asked me in annoyed tone way which direction I was going and I told him straight and he gave me some lecture about needing to be more clear about which way I was going. I told him I couldn't be more clear, he responded saying that cyclist going straight should be to the right (actually he said/pointed 'over there' where there is a button to push to activative signal for those that can't figure out inductive sensors I guess) and it looked like I was going to turn left apparently turning into him or some such. At this point I was thinking and probably gave him a WTF look, but the light turned green so we went on our ways.

Sure he was being communicative and making sure, being 'extra safe', but the tone made me want to turn in front of him after all that.

Al

I have some serious questions for you. If you see a cyclist riding in a non VC or what you consider or interprite to be a non VC manner & if you can catch up to them do you stop them & educate them on how to ride VC? I am talking about if they are riding with traffic obeying traffic laws but as far as you can tell they are not riding VC or what you consider to be VC. If you do why?

I can tell you right now if you stopped me & tried to "educate" me on riding VC I'd tell you to **** off & worry about your own riding & let me worry about mine, especially if I'm not doing anything wrong obeying traffic laws, etc.

Before you say anything about it, yes it is possible to not ride VC, still ride on the roadways & obey all traffic laws. I know I've had to do it when I have needed to.

So would you or have you done this? If you have what was the reaction from the person you educated?

The question has no meaning. If a person is cycling to obey the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles, then he is riding in the vehicular manner.

I was once in the shared thru/RT lane adjacent to a LTOL. I was left biased about 3-4' to the right of the stripe separating thru from LT lane, with bike positioned directly over center of inductive sensor (they are left biased in shared thru/RT lanes). A decked out older commuter on bike pulled into left turn lane next to me and asked me in annoyed tone way which direction I was going and I told him straight and he gave me some lecture about needing to be more clear about which way I was going. I told him I couldn't be more clear, he responded saying that cyclist going straight should be to the right (actually he said/pointed 'over there' where there is a button to push to activative signal for those that can't figure out inductive sensors I guess) and it looked like I was going to turn left apparently turning into him or some such. At this point I was thinking and probably gave him a WTF look, but the light turned green so we went on our ways.

Sure he was being communicative and making sure, being 'extra safe', but the tone made me want to turn in front of him after all that.

Al

This is why random acts of education don't work. If one wants to reach some commuters, start a community college class and teach them to ride in an environment where people are expecting to be taught. If you teach at random on the roadside, you just make people clam up and harden to your message, regardless if you are right or not.

This is why random acts of education don't work. If one wants to reach some commuters, start a community college class and teach them to ride in an environment where people are expecting to be taught. If you teach at random on the roadside, you just make people clam up and harden to your message, regardless if you are right or not.
Thats why I wrote this example.
Al

Is it true? Is HH actually trying to pry out some street cred out of another cyclist when he won't answer questions as to his experience himself?

Somehow, in living carless and bike touring for a week from Seattle to Portland, I don't think that Bek needs to answer to HH's challenge.

+1 on both counts.

The question has no meaning. If a person is cycling to obey the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles, then he is riding in the vehicular manner.

Curb hugging is within the traffic laws (and actually might be encouraged in some places), yet is not what most would consider riding in a vehicular manner.

Per your own ideas outlined in your book, rules of the road for drivers of vehicles are a subset of traffic law and are not always equivalent. When talking in reference to bicyclists, sometimes the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles encourages a riding style which is outside the specific traffic laws related to bicyclists.

I believe that N_C is referring to cyclists who are obeying traffic law, but are not adhering to commonly recognized principles of vehicular cycling.

Thats why I wrote this example.
Al

Just reinforcing your opinion. :)

Educating car drivers on the other hand, can be quite rewarding.

Yesterday I was riding on a segment that has bike lanes and 35mph limit, but two signaled intersections in rapid succession on a downhill. So I exit the Bike Lane and smoothly merge into the right lane before the first intersection, and stay there through the second one. At the first light, the car driver behind me shouts "Why aren't you in the bike lane?!" After the 2nd light, I pull back into the BL, and we pull up side-to-side at the 3rd light (no right turn at the intersection). I give him the roll-down-your-window sign, and say, "Safety, my man. Imagine me in the bike lane getting right hooked by anyone turning right. This way is safer, and smoother. I'm not trying to hold anybody up." He looks at me and says, "Ok."

Educating car drivers on the other hand, can be quite rewarding.

Here is my example which has similarities to yours:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UVCKzKJ74A (This is a video I've posted before)

As in this example (and like in zeytouns) I usually don't talk unless invited to.

Al

Is it true? Is HH actually trying to pry out some street cred out of another cyclist when he won't answer questions as to his experience himself?

Somehow, in living carless and bike touring for a week from Seattle to Portland, I don't think that Bek needs to answer to HH's challenge.
Context, Brian, context.

I have always answered questions about my experience when my experience was relevant to something I was saying.

I am talking about if they are riding with traffic obeying traffic laws but as far as you can tell they are not riding VC or what you consider to be VC.
If a person is cycling to obey the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles, then he is riding in the vehicular manner.
Curb hugging is within the traffic laws (and actually might be encouraged in some places), yet is not what most would consider riding in a vehicular manner.

Per your own ideas outlined in your book, rules of the road for drivers of vehicles are a subset of traffic law and are not always equivalent. When talking in reference to bicyclists, sometimes the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles encourages a riding style which is outside the specific traffic laws related to bicyclists.

I believe that N_C is referring to cyclists who are obeying traffic law, but are not adhering to commonly recognized principles of vehicular cycling. When John Forester writes, "obey the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles", to me that means "adhering to commonly recognized principles of vehicular cycling", which has much in common with, but is not identical to, "obeying traffic law".

Curb hugging (riding in space where pedestrians would walk, with or against traffic), for example, is within the traffic laws, but it is not "obeying the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles", nor is it "adhering to commonly recognized principles of vehicular cycling".

Edit: this is not a distinction I've seen Mr. Forester make, and indeed, he seems to not recognize it.

So, then, what's your point? Are you a racer? (and not Cat 5, anyone can be a Cat 5 for $15 and a number, even me). If you want Bek to expound on his experience riding with groups; I want you to expound on your experience riding in traffic.

If it matters to you that Bek's comment be based on experience; it matters to me that your comments are based on experience.

So, then, what's your point? Are you a racer? (and not Cat 5, anyone can be a Cat 5 for $15 and a number, even me). If you want Bek to expound on his experience riding with groups; I want you to expound on your experience riding in traffic.

If it matters to you that Bek's comment be based on experience; it matters to me that your comments are based on experience. I think it depends on the comment.

I asked for details about his experience with riding in groups in response to his comment about riding with groups, which is the first time I've ever noticed him claim to ride with groups (in contrast to Al, for example, who mentions doing so fairly frequently). And I don't mean to imply that I don't believe him. I just always pictured Bek on either a hybrid or a touring bike with panniers, not on a road racing machine riding in a tight peloton averaging 22 mph wearing Lycra. I'm looking to correct/update my image of him.

But when I make a claim that could be made by a blind paraplegic who has never sat on a bicycle, I will not answer irrelevant questions about my experience. It's more to underscore the irrelevancy of my experience to whatever it is that I'm claiming (because I try very hard to make objective self-supporting arguments that are based on premises that I believe all cyclists should be able to accept without knowing anything about the experience of whoever is making those assertions), than to avoid questions about my experience per se.

Whatever lets you sleep at night, HH. Notice that when you are referring to your own questioning one's experience, it is because of a legit reason, and whenever someone asks you for your experience, it's "a claim that could be made by a blind paraplegic who has never sat on a bicycle." But whatever. As long as you can sleep at night...

Whatever lets you sleep at night, HH. Notice that when you are referring to your own questioning one's experience, it is because of a legit reason, and whenever someone asks you for your experience, it's "a claim that could be made by a blind paraplegic who has never sat on a bicycle." But whatever. As long as you can sleep at night...
Go back and look at the claims I was making when you were complaining about me not answering questions about my experience. You will see that they were claims "that could be made by a blind paraplegic who has never sat on a bicycle."

Now look at the context in which I asked my questions of Bek. They were in regard to specific claims about his own riding which by definition could not have been done "by a blind paraplegic who has never sat on a bicycle".

Context matters.

Whatever you say, HH.

"...on a road racing machine riding in a tight peloton averaging 22 mph wearing Lycra..."

I fail to see how this describes anyone who considers themselves a transportational cyclist, or how the experiences of someone doing the above has any relevance to transportational cycling.

:roflmao: the weekend club fred HH debates MY riding abilites and speed.

Except for my disparaging YOUR weekend club Fred rides, Head, would you think I don't ride tight and fast with the pacelines? I put down 150-350 miles a week, a lot of it tight-n-fast training miles, mr. head.

Isn't this thread about VC acolytes, that, like helemt head, admit they don't ride much? What is this thread about? Isn't this thread about Calling other riders out to their NON-VC riding styles?

You will see that they were claims "that could be made by a blind paraplegic who has never sat on a bicycle."
I bet I could find you a blind paraplegic that says that he knows of pelotons that will go "team Cinzano" on someone yelling at them about the door zone.... I could find you one, there are ways dude. You don't even want to know. :p

It's kinda like me, a smoker, giving other folks my 'expert' advice on how to quit because I don't smoke on weekends. :lol:

"...on a road racing machine riding in a tight peloton averaging 22 mph wearing Lycra..."

I fail to see how this describes anyone who considers themselves a transportational cyclist, or how the experiences of someone doing the above has any relevance to transportational cycling.

I am kind of wondering that myself; Helemt Head's weekend club fred rides have little in common with solo, transportational vehicular cycling. Weekender Peloton rides are NOT like fighting rush hour traffic as a commuter.

weekend club fred rides have little in common with solo, transportational vehicular cycling. Weekender Peloton rides are NOT like fighting rush hour traffic as a commuter.
I somewhat agree. I find that bike lanes generally serve weekend club rides better than individual solo riders who need to get anywhere at anytime. Weekend riders can pick their routes and can comfortably ride along the white bike lane stripe, using their mass for visibility even if off to the side. The mass of riders overwhelms the (often incorrect) message bike lanes may send motorists. Riding far right within a bike lane is a bit less hazardous in a mass setting, but also good for a mass of cyclist to do as it can be much more difficult for a motorist to pass a long string of cyclists vs. a solo one.

In otherwords, I find bike lanes to be far easier to ignore when riding with clubs.

This is why as I've mentioned in post #2 in this thread that I am willing to ride non vehiclularly when in clubs.

Al

"...on a road racing machine riding in a tight peloton averaging 22 mph wearing Lycra..."

I fail to see how this describes anyone who considers themselves a transportational cyclist, or how the experiences of someone doing the above has any relevance to transportational cycling.
It doesn't.

It describes someone who claims to ride with groups that average 22 mph, which is what Bek claimed.

Apparently Bek does ride in fast paced club groups. Now then... what of it?

It's kinda like me, a smoker, giving other folks my 'expert' advice on how to quit because I don't smoke on weekends. :lol: I've never smoked a cigarette in my life.
My mom smoked for over 40 years before she quit.

Yet either one of us could make the following statement, and it's just as true regardless of which one of us says it: It really helps to quit smoking by finding a way to feel disgusted about it.

Here's the thing. There are millions of cyclists out there. Each one of us is just one of those cyclists. At best, each cyclist's experience is based on a sample of one. Not very meaningful, nor very relevant, for much of what can be said about cycling. This is why I try to avoid saying much based on my own experience which by definition is based on a sample of one.

Apparently Bek does ride in fast paced club groups. Now then... what of it?
Yes, apparently he does. What of it? It raises these questions:

What bike do you use on those rides? Do these guys race? What cats? Do you?

This is why I try to avoid saying much based on my own experience which by definition is a sample of one.
So instead you parrot a 30 year old book? :eek:

Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire! :eek: :eek:

okay, 21 and 1/2 :roflmao:

Yes, apparently he does. What of it? It raises these questions:

What bike do you use on those rides? Do these guys race? What cats? Do you?

Whatever bike it is, I'm sure it's not affected by pine needles or any other kind of debris :)

I'm much more concerned about weekend club fredders who pontificate about transportational cycling, than my average speed in the pelotons. :roflmao:

I'm lost. How in the world did we get talking about club riding? I thought we talked about transportational cycling here.

FWIW, if Bek is holding 21 and 1/5 mph, I'd bet he's on a road bike. Or something like a road bike. I'm not sure why it's important that he races. I'm pretty sure, that with 50 miles a week of riding that HH does't race. I'm just trying to find some relevence here. As I understand, HH made a comment about how he's the safety nanny of his group ride, Bek made a comment, and now, we're on to HH wanting to know if Bek races and what bikes he rides and everyone else wanting to know if HH bicycles for transportation.

Yes, apparently he does. What of it? It raises these questions:

What bike do you use on those rides? Do these guys race? What cats? Do you?

I'm stretching to search for a relevance here. Why does riding with a club raise questions? I'm not following.

So instead you parrot a 30 year old book? :eek:

Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire! :eek: :eek:
Actually, I try not to rely on quoting from books either, except on issues that pivot on what was said in the book in question or by the writer in question.

I'm stretching to search for a relevance here. Why does riding with a club raise questions? I'm not following.
It's a tangent from the thread topic, to be sure.

It just happened to come up here because Bek made a statement about his riding that contradicted my impression of his riding. So, again, my purpose here is to update/correct my impression of his riding so that it's closer to reality.