Advocacy & Safety - Self defense at being tossed coins at

I got coins tossed at me as I was cruising down a wide 1 lane road today. I sprinted up to 30mph catching up to them at a light and yelled at the top of my lung cursing them out pretty much. I think I scared the crap out of them b/c they peeled out and swerved all over and running over a curb cutting through a parking lott to get away from me the psycho cyclist.

Now would've it been wrong or legally bad for me IF I HAD grabbed my water bottle and toss it at them? I felt attacked and kinda violated though I barely felt the coins when it hit me.

Remember the "McMissile" story that hogged headlines for a full week a few months ago?
Now apply it to your case.

Retaliation is not self defense. That said, if it feels good, do it...as long as you are willing to accept the consequences. The consequences of getting into a pissing contest with a motor vehicle could make you have a bad day. Karma is your friend. ;)

Put a toll booth basket thing on your bike. They'll miss nearly every time and for those who don't.....money you don't have to work for.

Getting in pissing contests always makes my day better, I don't know about you. Really, though... arguments with serious emotions and beliefs involved are always exciting and a good change of pace, at least for me.

On a side note, your thread title is phrased in hideous English. The two prepositions you used were the same (at), and both were used incorrectly, or at least in the wrong place (never end a sentance with a preposition). Additionally, you seem to have confused to verbs 'to be' and 'to have'. And.. it seems to lack an object. With the phrasing you have chosen, I'd change it to "Self defense against having coins tossed at one' Or so, but honestly, I'm not too great with English myself.

Told you I like pissing contests :p

P.S. you did the right thing with the car.

Getting in pissing contests always makes my day better, I don't know about you. Really, though... arguments with serious emotions and beliefs involved are always exciting and a good change of pace, at least for me.

On a side note, your thread title is phrased in hideous English. The two prepositions you used were the same (at), and both were used incorrectly, or at least in the wrong place (never end a sentance with a preposition).

Told you I like pissing contests :p

Well you best start pissing, because while you were writing that I was pissing on your shoes. :eek:

Now would've it been wrong or legally bad for me IF I HAD grabbed my water bottle and toss it at them? I felt attacked and kinda violated though I barely felt the coins when it hit me.

Considering that you chased down the motorist and initiated the second confrontation, then throwing your water bottle at the vehicles occupants would not constitute self-defense and could very well result in an assault charge against you. If you just throw it at the vehicle, you could be charged with damaging the owner's property.

You could have stopped to pick up the coins and considered them restitution for having being wronged. Considering the damages (none) it should be more than just compensation.

[QUOTE=supertj] I think I scared the crap out of them b/c they peeled out and swerved all over and running over a curb cutting through a parking lott to get away from me the psycho cyclist.QUOTE]


Way to go psycho cyclist. I had something like that thrown at me, only it was an ink pen, and the punks that threw it had to wind up running a traffic light to get away from me. It was funny because as I was rapidly approaching them, sprinting as hard as I could, I thought they were going to bail out of the car and abandon it right there at the stop light. Finally they just run the light. It was worth the bee sting like pain I felt to watch those little idiots freak out.

I don't think it is illegal if a slippery water bottle pops out of our hands accidentally. It happens all the time.

Put a toll booth basket thing on your bike. They'll miss nearly every time and for those who don't.....money you don't have to work for.

Yeah, people throw money at you when you ride :eek: ! They just point and laugh at me from their lifted 3/4 ton pick 'em up trucks :(

I had some guys in an SUV do that to me once. They enjoyed it so much they circled the block to come back for another pass to throw more at me.
Why do people think it's ok to do things like that? Is it because they feel impervious and/or anonymous in their cars? Plus, it's money! Maybe I'm stingy, but no amount of my money is worth so little as to be thrown at a stranger.
Somewhat related, I once had a car drive up over the curb, trying to hit me, or just scare me. Of course it scratched up and dented the lower parts of the car. Again, I don't think any car would be crappy enough for me to be willing to destroy it just to hurt a stranger.

Yeah, people throw money at you when you ride :eek: ! They just point and laugh at me from their lifted 3/4 ton pick 'em up trucks :(
Oh, that was YOU?? I'm sorry about that!
You just looked so odd wearing your uniform, with a SPAS12 strapped to your rear rack and a person in handcuffs sitting on your handlebars. :D

I would have stopped to pick up the change.

One coin isn't worth stopping for, but a bunch of coins go into the bike fund jar. It's a quest to gather stuff off the road and convert it into cash for the bike fund. Eventually when I get the new bike and people ask me where I got it, I can tell them I found it on the side of the road.

Oh, that was YOU?? I'm sorry about that!
You just looked so odd wearing your uniform, with a SPAS12 strapped to your rear rack and a person in handcuffs sitting on your handlebars. :D

Yeah but soon the county is getting me an xtracycle so I can carry two at a time :D

In California, if a coin touched you, you could have placed them under private person's arrest for a misdemeanor (battery). California state law would allow you to use reasonable force to arrest the person in the vehicle that threw the coins at you, as long as you saw the person in the act of throwing them at you. Or you could do the more advisable thing...get a license plate # and description of vehicle and suspect, call PD, tell them the person committed a battery on you and you want to place them under arrest (police wouldn't be able to arrest the person themselves since the act wasn't committed in their presence).

Of course, before you go out arresting everybody you see committing misdemeanors, I suggest you read the laws in your state on this kind of thing and be very familiar with them. There are lots of personal liability issues involved with citizens arrests, which is why they are fairly rare and usually only used in extreme cases.

In California, if a coin touched you, you could have placed them under private person's arrest for a misdemeanor (battery). California state law would allow you to use reasonable force to arrest the person in the vehicle that threw the coins at you, as long as you saw the person in the act of throwing them at you. Or you could do the more advisable thing...get a license plate # and description of vehicle and suspect, call PD, tell them the person committed a battery on you and you want to place them under arrest (police wouldn't be able to arrest the person themselves since the act wasn't committed in their presence).

Of course, before you go out arresting everybody you see committing misdemeanors, I suggest you read the laws in your state on this kind of thing and be very familiar with them. There are lots of personal liability issues involved with citizens arrests, which is why they are fairly rare and usually only used in extreme cases.

You can make a citizen's arrest for a misdemeanor in CA? It has to be a felony in MI unless you are a shop owner or have some other statutory privilege to detain.

Yup misdemeanor committed in presence (must have actually been committed, keep person in sight, etc.) or felony if the crime was actually committed and you have probable cause to believe the person you're arresting has committed it.

We have a shopkeeper's privilege here too, which actually broadens the circumstances for a citizen's arrest on a misdemeanor and, as long as it's followed to the letter, protects the shopkeeper and/or their agent(s) from civil liability.

I think the majority of people in California don't realize how broad a private person's arrest persons are (which may be a good thing). Heck you don't even have to be a citizen to arrest somebody here...just a human being.

I agree, its aggravating. At least it's coins and not rotten fruit or even someone's spit . It would be tempting to toss a water bottle, but then I might loose my favorite water bottle.

I got coins tossed at me as I was cruising down a wide 1 lane road today. I sprinted up to 30mph catching up to them at a light and yelled at the top of my lung cursing them out pretty much. I think I scared the crap out of them b/c they peeled out and swerved all over and running over a curb cutting through a parking lott to get away from me the psycho cyclist.

Now would've it been wrong or legally bad for me IF I HAD grabbed my water bottle and toss it at them? I felt attacked and kinda violated though I barely felt the coins when it hit me.
Yes you'd have been wrong, because the danger had passed at that point. You wouldn't be defending yourself, you'd be assaulting them. Even though coins could cause a physical, or even mortal danger under some circumstances, since the danger is so fleeting, the only defense would likely be changing directions, stopping, or accelerating away.

I agree, its aggravating. At least it's coins and not rotten fruit or even someone's spit.

Way to put the best spin on the situation! And very true--yuck!

I got coins tossed at me as I was cruising down a wide 1 lane road today. *snip*

I always knew biking would pay off someday...

:p

I can attest to spit. The guy had a good aim. Glad I did not have a rifle on my handlebars. Some punk kid , looked like a 9th grader. Hit me on the knee only.

I think HS and colleges should start having cycling as part of their sports program. If cycling start becoming mainstream, I think we wouldn't be treated differently.

I'm seriously thinking of contacting a few local high schools to request them to start a cycling club and I would take it upon myself to coach it. Maybe I take an early retirement at 26. :)

Or at least have my local bike clubs use some of their funding to do something to educate kids at schools that these behaviors are wrong and illegal.

I really get petty down on american youth and cyling. Whether in cycling gear or not. I recall trying to catch an Amtrak train after my bike tour of Oregon. In Klamath Falls,Or. on the way to the train station, some punk kids called me names about my sexual orientation. They were gonna 'beat my azz.' I was on my tourer catching a train. I was dressed in wind pants. Why was such necessary. I was only stopped at a red light. I raced thru the red light and left them in the dust. It appeared they mean't it.
Might cycling clubs make an appeal for youner members. I doubt it would be effective.

:D
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=291690

I think much of the hatred shown to cyclists ,particularily by US youth is cultural. Now if we were running about in football gear, we'd get slapped on the butt. crazy.

Getting in pissing contests always makes my day better, I don't know about you. Really, though... arguments with serious emotions and beliefs involved are always exciting and a good change of pace, at least for me.

On a side note, your thread title is phrased in hideous English. The two prepositions you used were the same (at), and both were used incorrectly, or at least in the wrong place (never end a sentance with a preposition). Additionally, you seem to have confused to verbs 'to be' and 'to have'. And.. it seems to lack an object. With the phrasing you have chosen, I'd change it to "Self defense against having coins tossed at one' Or so, but honestly, I'm not too great with English myself.

Told you I like pissing contests :p

P.S. you did the right thing with the car.


Before you go correcting a person's grammar, you might want to figure out how to spell sentence.

If I could be so fortunate(?) to have people throw money at me, but no, just lousy chalk/wax pellets from an air powered pistol. I'll stop for quarters and higher denominations if money is thrown at me, but it'll probably be just pennies and I'll leave that to K-Fed to save that one. :D

Before you go correcting a person's grammar, you might want to figure out how to spell sentence.

And you mustn't forget the misspelling of 'defence' either :p

Retaliation is not self defense. That said, if it feels good, do it...as long as you are willing to accept the consequences. The consequences of getting into a pissing contest with a motor vehicle could make you have a bad day. Karma is your friend. ;)

+1.

OK, let's dispense with the idea that we're talking about defense, revenge is a perfectly acceptable motive.

Now, what I'd do is weld a strong rare-earth magnet to a braze-on connection. I would then find a rather dense piece of iron and stick that to the magnet. That way you have ready access to a damage-dealing piece of metal roughly the size for optimal throwing, should the need arise. The only trick is getting the size of the magnet right so it holds the metal under normal cycling but allows for an easy pull-off.

You might want to mount two of them in case they circle around after the first throw.

OK, let's dispense with the idea that we're talking about defense, revenge is a perfectly acceptable motive.

Now, what I'd do is weld a strong rare-earth magnet to a braze-on connection. I would then find a rather dense piece of iron and stick that to the magnet. That way you have ready access to a damage-dealing piece of metal roughly the size for optimal throwing, should the need arise. The only trick is getting the size of the magnet right so it holds the metal under normal cycling but allows for an easy pull-off.

You might want to mount two of them in case they circle around after the first throw.

Simpler, with a higher irony factor:

http://www.cycle-yoshida.com/motocross/surly/parts/cog/track.jpg

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=291384

I got coins tossed at me as I was cruising down a wide 1 lane road today. I sprinted up to 30mph catching up to them at a light and yelled at the top of my lung cursing them out pretty much. I think I scared the crap out of them b/c they peeled out and swerved all over and running over a curb cutting through a parking lott to get away from me the psycho cyclist.

Now would've it been wrong or legally bad for me IF I HAD grabbed my water bottle and toss it at them? I felt attacked and kinda violated though I barely felt the coins when it hit me.


Let me answer this at length, while bearing the risk of taking this too seriously. But I have far more expertise in this area than I care to have.

(1) In terms of the damage they can do, coins are pretty low on the scale. Rocks or other objects are far more to worry about. I always advise cyclists who are targets to look straight down toward the road surface. If you turn to face them, you risk getting hit in the face; looking straight down allows your helmet to do its work and you need to see if something might be jamming in your bike spokes (or landing in the road directly in front of you. You can still get a pretty good look at who/what is harassing you out of the corner of your eye. You can look up and quicky snag a vehicle description/plate when they drive away.

(2) Consider coming to a screeching halt then and there. If they are in traffic, they are forced to keep going, and they are gone. If they are cowards on an open road, they will keep going also. If they stop when you stop, then you have realized exactly how serious the situation is you are dealing with. If you are gonna have a confrontation, you don't want to have a bicycle between your legs anyway.

(3) This is one reason to have a rear view mirror (of any kind). You might, I daresay should, be able to see the car roll its windows down, arms come out in a cocked position. You will also be able to tell if there are cars behind them who might either be witnesses, or as above, will force them on.

In general though, for low level violence of this sort, the best offense is a good defense, while taking advantage of the situation if it breaks in your favor: for example, if they end up line of cars at a light further ahead. You can always tell the cop (as I did once) that you marked the car so that it would be easier to identify later. Keep in mind that it is the passengers, not the driver in most cases who throw things. He/she won't like damage done to their vehicle on their friend's behalf.

One of the most 'community' things cyclists can do in their town/area is to make sure that word spreads among themselves about when, where, and utlimately who are doing this. From there all kinds of options open up.

roughstuff

Retaliation is not self defense. That said, if it feels good, do it...as long as you are willing to accept the consequences. The consequences of getting into a pissing contest with a motor vehicle could make you have a bad day. Karma is your friend. ;)

A good buddy of mine who is a lawyer told me to keep the two P's in mind: proximate, and proportional. Self defense has to occur roughly at the same time and place as your attack; and your response must be proportional to the harm you suffered.

Of course, I keep my proportions on a logarithmic scale! :)

roughstuff

I'm a bit of a road rager and a radical cyclist I chase down all violaters of my space and give them a piece of my mind. Same on my motorcycle.

I think much of the hatred shown to cyclists ,particularily by US youth is cultural. Now if we were running about in football gear, we'd get slapped on the butt. crazy.

OH....puh-LEEEEEEZE! In Pakistan they told me the reason kids threw rocks was because they were 'illiterate.'

They do it because they can get away with it most of the time.

roughstuff

You need sit yourself down outside some classroom and listen to the sh*** drivel coming out of the mouths of kids in High school. Not saying all kids, but surely enough. ( PS- somewhere here at Bike FOrums is a cyclist teacher commenting on harassment by his students, towards his cycling. I recommend one find it. ) TOo many American youth have this sexual complex about masculinity or their lack of security with such rather.
I have chaperoned too many school dances with my teacher wife. Many American youth- yes, likely youth everywhere. But, particularily in the US. I say much of it is our violent videos, violent video games.
I just posted a reply. My Oregon tour last year. Some kids in Klamath Falls were gonna beat the crap out of me. I had no connection with them other than just being at a red light.
I was not dressed in cycling gear. I was on the way to a train. About 9-10th graders, one had a ball bat out and were about to chase me. I raced them to the train station and did not have to fight them. Only thing too bikey about my bike, my panniers were full. And they felt a need to call me f@&&o!.) azz holes. This is not the first time , I experienced such bull ****.
Something is wrong here. Too many act in a like fashion.

I'm a bit of a road rager and a radical cyclist I chase down all violaters of my space and give them a piece of my mind. Same on my motorcycle.
THe time some punk kids hit me on the back with an orange , I sort of lost it. I understand.

<humor>
Must have been a bunch of liberals* confronting a societal problem. Why?

Because a liberal's solution to a societal problem is to throw money at it.
</humor>

* Yes, I consider myself pretty liberal; IMO, if you can't laugh at yourself, you shouldn't laugh at others.