BostonFixed
Yup: http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/news/2006/1000448/index.html
Maybe we sould rethink the whole living carfree thing and go living meatfree?
Maybe we sould rethink the whole living carfree thing and go living meatfree?
FAO: Livestock a bigger contributor to global warming than transport
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lima_bean
way ahead of you.
Philatio
way ahead of you.
+1 been meat free longer than I've been car free. Much of the same reasoning brought about both.
+1 been meat free longer than I've been car free. Much of the same reasoning brought about both.
Hobartlemagne
Im a militant omnivore
lima_bean
my meat free and car free reasons are completely unrelated for me personally though =p
fat_bike_nut
I'm reluctant to go 100% Vegan, because I don't see any good non-meat sources of Vitamin B-12. Any meat-free people have ideas on getting that vitamin aside from supplements (yuck)?
pj7
The obvious solution is to start eating more beef. If we eat more than they can breed then we will cut down on the emissions. ;)
If we're not supposed to eat animals, then why are they covered in meat?
If we're not supposed to eat animals, then why are they covered in meat?
JeffS
Yup: http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/news/2006/1000448/index.html
Maybe we sould rethink the whole living carfree thing and go living meatfree?
Without disputing the claims, I consider this more of an overcrowded planet issue than an agriculture one.
Every aspect of human existence is unsustainable on a long enough timeline. We don't care.
Maybe we sould rethink the whole living carfree thing and go living meatfree?
Without disputing the claims, I consider this more of an overcrowded planet issue than an agriculture one.
Every aspect of human existence is unsustainable on a long enough timeline. We don't care.
gerv
A general reduction in meat eating would be beneficial both for the planet and for personal health. I try to have at least 3 or 4 days a week without meat in my diet. I have several pretty good vegetarian recipes that everyone in my family likes and so I cook them whenever I have the chance. I figure it's a step in the right direction, although, admittedly... vegetarianism is the answer.
Also, I read that some varieties of meat, like beef, tend to be use more resources. So, I tend more towards pork and chicken when I do cook meat.
Also, I read that some varieties of meat, like beef, tend to be use more resources. So, I tend more towards pork and chicken when I do cook meat.
deputyjones
Without disputing the claims, I consider this more of an overcrowded planet issue than an agriculture one.
Every aspect of human existence is unsustainable on a long enough timeline. We don't care.
Well there you go. Start eating people and you solve the problem. They are covered in meat too ;)
Every aspect of human existence is unsustainable on a long enough timeline. We don't care.
Well there you go. Start eating people and you solve the problem. They are covered in meat too ;)
bragi
I agree that the real issue isn't an overabundance of cows, but rather an overabundance of us. (No, not bicyclists.) I can't really see too many pleasant ways out of our current conundrum, either. We could all stop eating meat, I suppose, but I think a better idea would be to stop breeding like rabbits. Maybe a world-wide one-child rule wouldn't be such a bad idea. (China's population is still huge, and growing, but just think what would've happened to all of us had their government not made such a hard choice...)
pj7
Well there you go. Start eating people and you solve the problem. They are covered in meat too ;)
Soylent Green?? :D
Soylent Green?? :D
old and new
I agree that the real issue isn't an overabundance of cows, but rather an overabundance of us. (No, not bicyclists.) I can't really see too many pleasant ways out of our current conundrum, either. We could all stop eating meat, I suppose, but I think a better idea would be to stop breeding like rabbits. Maybe a world-wide one-child rule wouldn't be such a bad idea. (China's population is still huge, and growing, but just think what would've happened to all of us had their government not made such a hard choice...)
everybody in the forum should read what you wrote. I almost wrote what you did .It was in a post about "why rents are so high" I didn't want to get spanked by members so I passed.The answer to ALL the worlds problems are overpopulaton.Aside from enviornmental,economic and "political" problems too.
everybody in the forum should read what you wrote. I almost wrote what you did .It was in a post about "why rents are so high" I didn't want to get spanked by members so I passed.The answer to ALL the worlds problems are overpopulaton.Aside from enviornmental,economic and "political" problems too.
Philatio
my meat free and car free reasons are completely unrelated for me personally though =p
Well, they're both cheaper, better for the environment, better for personal health, etc.
Well, they're both cheaper, better for the environment, better for personal health, etc.
Jolt
I'm reluctant to go 100% Vegan, because I don't see any good non-meat sources of Vitamin B-12. Any meat-free people have ideas on getting that vitamin aside from supplements (yuck)?
As far as I know, animal products are the only sources of B12. This includes milk and eggs though, so one can easily get it without eating meat. Because of the B12 issue, it's pretty obvious that a vegan diet is not natural for humans. That said, many of us could certainly stand to cut down on meat, for health reasons as well as environmental reasons. (Plus it will decrease your grocery bill!) Here's a suggestion: let's start posting favorite vegetarian recipes for those who would like to try them.
As far as I know, animal products are the only sources of B12. This includes milk and eggs though, so one can easily get it without eating meat. Because of the B12 issue, it's pretty obvious that a vegan diet is not natural for humans. That said, many of us could certainly stand to cut down on meat, for health reasons as well as environmental reasons. (Plus it will decrease your grocery bill!) Here's a suggestion: let's start posting favorite vegetarian recipes for those who would like to try them.
pj7
As far as I know, animal products are the only sources of B12. This includes milk and eggs though, so one can easily get it without eating meat. Because of the B12 issue, it's pretty obvious that a vegan diet is not natural for humans. That said, many of us could certainly stand to cut down on meat, for health reasons as well as environmental reasons. (Plus it will decrease your grocery bill!) Here's a suggestion: let's start posting favorite vegetarian recipes for those who would like to try them.
My favorite vegetarian meal is this simple salad.
1 16oz steak
slightly garnished with parsley
:D
My favorite vegetarian meal is this simple salad.
1 16oz steak
slightly garnished with parsley
:D
makeinu
The obvious solution is to start eating more beef. If we eat more than they can breed then we will cut down on the emissions. ;)
Good one. Or how about only eating veal when you eat beef?
Good one. Or how about only eating veal when you eat beef?
Platy
...recipes...
Here's something a little different. Substitute garbanzo (chickpea) meal for cornmeal in any cornbread recipe. It's much lighter than fried falafel and you can spice it any way you want, not just middle eastern style.
You can make garbanzo meal if you have a mill or a flying blade chopper that can turn dried garbanzo beans into something like cornmeal. I use something called an Ultimate Chopper. I suspect some heavy duty coffee grinders might work too. I haven't seen garbanzo meal on the shelves anywhere but it might be something you can buy.
Here's something a little different. Substitute garbanzo (chickpea) meal for cornmeal in any cornbread recipe. It's much lighter than fried falafel and you can spice it any way you want, not just middle eastern style.
You can make garbanzo meal if you have a mill or a flying blade chopper that can turn dried garbanzo beans into something like cornmeal. I use something called an Ultimate Chopper. I suspect some heavy duty coffee grinders might work too. I haven't seen garbanzo meal on the shelves anywhere but it might be something you can buy.
dejinshathe
Billy Connolly said it best: The two big problems that everyone is talking about are one: there are too many people and two: there's not enough food. So if everyone ate just one other person, we'd halve both problems overnight, wouldn't we? You eat someone I don't like. I'll eat someone you don't like. We'll both have clear consciences ...
Yeah, I eat red meat maybe twice a week at the most and the rest of the time, I'm a "fish-eating vegetarian". It's cheaper, it's healthier and apparently now, I discover, it's better for the environment. So eating cow is like driving - only do it when you really have to - even though it's fun ...
Yeah, I eat red meat maybe twice a week at the most and the rest of the time, I'm a "fish-eating vegetarian". It's cheaper, it's healthier and apparently now, I discover, it's better for the environment. So eating cow is like driving - only do it when you really have to - even though it's fun ...
dejinshathe
The obvious solution is to start eating more beef. If we eat more than they can breed then we will cut down on the emissions. ;)
And speaking of emissions, what are human emissions like for the environment? I ask because after a big feed of roast vegetables or veggie soup, I tend to emit like a racehorse ...
... okay I'll quit sharing now ; )
And speaking of emissions, what are human emissions like for the environment? I ask because after a big feed of roast vegetables or veggie soup, I tend to emit like a racehorse ...
... okay I'll quit sharing now ; )
makeinu
Maybe we sould rethink the whole living carfree thing and go living meatfree?
There are other reasons for being car free. For example, collisions with livestock are not a leading cause of death in the US.
Although, I have to admit, many of the reasons for going car free also apply to going meat free, but to a lesser extent:
-car free is healthier, meat light is healthier (though not necessarily meat free)
-car free is good for the environment, meat free is good in the context of global warming. Although global warming isn't the only environmental issue. Furthermore, much of the impact described in the article is related to inorganic farming methods (not necessarily organic farming methods).
-car free saves a lot of money, meat free saves some money
In my opinion having a diet which is organic and meat light is the best compromise.
Without disputing the claims, I consider this more of an overcrowded planet issue than an agriculture one.
Every aspect of human existence is unsustainable on a long enough timeline. We don't care.
I'm not sure if that's true. The planet regenerates resources at a certain rate. If we didn't use them at a faster rate then we'd be sustainable.
Whether or not the planet is overcrowded depends on our resource usage. Currently we're not using resources at a sustainable rate, but that doesn't necessarily mean we couldn't bring it down to a sustainable rate using only more efficient resource usage. Although we're certainly going to have to curb population growth sooner or later.
There are other reasons for being car free. For example, collisions with livestock are not a leading cause of death in the US.
Although, I have to admit, many of the reasons for going car free also apply to going meat free, but to a lesser extent:
-car free is healthier, meat light is healthier (though not necessarily meat free)
-car free is good for the environment, meat free is good in the context of global warming. Although global warming isn't the only environmental issue. Furthermore, much of the impact described in the article is related to inorganic farming methods (not necessarily organic farming methods).
-car free saves a lot of money, meat free saves some money
In my opinion having a diet which is organic and meat light is the best compromise.
Without disputing the claims, I consider this more of an overcrowded planet issue than an agriculture one.
Every aspect of human existence is unsustainable on a long enough timeline. We don't care.
I'm not sure if that's true. The planet regenerates resources at a certain rate. If we didn't use them at a faster rate then we'd be sustainable.
Whether or not the planet is overcrowded depends on our resource usage. Currently we're not using resources at a sustainable rate, but that doesn't necessarily mean we couldn't bring it down to a sustainable rate using only more efficient resource usage. Although we're certainly going to have to curb population growth sooner or later.
thimblescratch
Overpopulation is not the only problem, but it adds to it. Even if everyone stopped having babies TODAY we would still have all these factory farms, cutting down rainforest to grow livestock feed, methane emissions, waste runoff, etc etc etc. These all come from us eating a very meaty diet. It is unsustainable because it takes so much food/resources just to produce one animal. Not to mention the wastes produced. What we are eating (meat) is unsustainable in the quantity we consume. If everyone just ate LESS meat it would be drastically different. But just try to go to a resturant and find something on the menu that is not meat-based. Try to find fresh veggies. It is very limited and difficult. I do think this is changing though.
FWIW I used to HATE veggies, and I just ate sweets and fast food. I stopped eating meat and starting liking vegetables. I have been BY FAR healthier than ever before after banishing meat from my diet. Even my hubby has joined me in this. He never has gas anymore, added bonus! My sense of smell is stronger, my taste buds changed, I lost some weight, and I'm not supporting rainforest destruction (among many other things). So there are many advantages for giving up meat, not to mention environmental reasons.
But people are very defensive about their meat. I used to be too. But we can't continue this path for very long, or we will all be eating soylent green.
Jolt, I read somewhere that B12 can be absorbed and passed on through plants but the soil we use for growing many vegetables are not rich in B12, thus it doesn't get passed on to us. So growing your own plants with rich soil would be the start, but we certainly can't rely on modern factory farms to do it for us. (Oooh conspiracy theory - maybe they do this on purpose because then we wouldn't rely on meat for this one last vitamin?).
FWIW I used to HATE veggies, and I just ate sweets and fast food. I stopped eating meat and starting liking vegetables. I have been BY FAR healthier than ever before after banishing meat from my diet. Even my hubby has joined me in this. He never has gas anymore, added bonus! My sense of smell is stronger, my taste buds changed, I lost some weight, and I'm not supporting rainforest destruction (among many other things). So there are many advantages for giving up meat, not to mention environmental reasons.
But people are very defensive about their meat. I used to be too. But we can't continue this path for very long, or we will all be eating soylent green.
Jolt, I read somewhere that B12 can be absorbed and passed on through plants but the soil we use for growing many vegetables are not rich in B12, thus it doesn't get passed on to us. So growing your own plants with rich soil would be the start, but we certainly can't rely on modern factory farms to do it for us. (Oooh conspiracy theory - maybe they do this on purpose because then we wouldn't rely on meat for this one last vitamin?).
Jolt
Jolt, I read somewhere that B12 can be absorbed and passed on through plants but the soil we use for growing many vegetables are not rich in B12, thus it doesn't get passed on to us. So growing your own plants with rich soil would be the start, but we certainly can't rely on modern factory farms to do it for us. (Oooh conspiracy theory - maybe they do this on purpose because then we wouldn't rely on meat for this one last vitamin?).
I think I may have read/heard something similar somewhere as well, or maybe it had something to do with a type of bacteria that used to be common in the soil. However, it appears that this is no longer a reliable way to get B12, so it has to be from some sort of animal product, whether that be meat, milk or eggs, other than just taking a supplement. And believe me, you want to make sure you're getting B12--a deficiency can cause all sorts of lovely neurological problems that can be permanent if it goes on for too long. LOL at the conspiracy theory!
BTW, I totally agree that it would be much better if everyone ate less meat. Most people in this country eat too much of it and not only does this use more resources than we need to, but it's also not healthy (although there's a lot of other stuff in the American diet that I think is even worse for health, like trans fats and way too much sugar, and then there's the general sedentary lifestyle).
I think I may have read/heard something similar somewhere as well, or maybe it had something to do with a type of bacteria that used to be common in the soil. However, it appears that this is no longer a reliable way to get B12, so it has to be from some sort of animal product, whether that be meat, milk or eggs, other than just taking a supplement. And believe me, you want to make sure you're getting B12--a deficiency can cause all sorts of lovely neurological problems that can be permanent if it goes on for too long. LOL at the conspiracy theory!
BTW, I totally agree that it would be much better if everyone ate less meat. Most people in this country eat too much of it and not only does this use more resources than we need to, but it's also not healthy (although there's a lot of other stuff in the American diet that I think is even worse for health, like trans fats and way too much sugar, and then there's the general sedentary lifestyle).
gwd
Maybe a world-wide one-child rule wouldn't be such a bad idea. (China's population is still huge, and growing, but just think what would've happened to all of us had their government not made such a hard choice...)
The over representation of males in the Chinese population is interesting, a one son rule might have been better for China. The next time China goes to war it might not be for oil but for brides.
The over representation of males in the Chinese population is interesting, a one son rule might have been better for China. The next time China goes to war it might not be for oil but for brides.
thimblescratch
I think I may have read/heard something similar somewhere as well, or maybe it had something to do with a type of bacteria that used to be common in the soil. However, it appears that this is no longer a reliable way to get B12, so it has to be from some sort of animal product, whether that be meat, milk or eggs, other than just taking a supplement. And believe me, you want to make sure you're getting B12--a deficiency can cause all sorts of lovely neurological problems that can be permanent if it goes on for too long. LOL at the conspiracy theory!
BTW, I totally agree that it would be much better if everyone ate less meat. Most people in this country eat too much of it and not only does this use more resources than we need to, but it's also not healthy (although there's a lot of other stuff in the American diet that I think is even worse for health, like trans fats and way too much sugar, and then there's the general sedentary lifestyle).
Hmm, maybe I haven't been getting enough B12 because I'm starting to create vitamin conspiracy theories :eek:
But you are right, as with everything else it's about balance. The enormous amount of meat in the American diet is really tipping the scales, in more ways than one.
BTW, I totally agree that it would be much better if everyone ate less meat. Most people in this country eat too much of it and not only does this use more resources than we need to, but it's also not healthy (although there's a lot of other stuff in the American diet that I think is even worse for health, like trans fats and way too much sugar, and then there's the general sedentary lifestyle).
Hmm, maybe I haven't been getting enough B12 because I'm starting to create vitamin conspiracy theories :eek:
But you are right, as with everything else it's about balance. The enormous amount of meat in the American diet is really tipping the scales, in more ways than one.
cerewa
I suppose, but I think a better idea would be to stop breeding like rabbits.
If there were fewer of us, (and meat consumption per capita stayed the same) it would reduce the livestock contributions to global warming. But the same is true of transportation.
Neither is a valid argument for leaving our eating or traveling habits unchanged. People from developed countries aren't really making kids any faster than we're dying off as it is, but we from developed countries are responsible for a huge proportion of the environmental destruction caused by animal agriculture and petroleum use.
Meanwhile, the population in underdeveloped countries will continue to go up for quite some time.
I know people are reluctant to change their diets to something less animal-dependent, but I suspect it will happen one way or the other- in the USA the only way to avoid a large reduction in animal agriculture is probably to continue consuming unsustainable amounts of energy and water resources.
For a human, I don't consider a vegan diet to be very "natural" but then, neither are domesticated animals. I do think it's natural to eat a diet mostly composed of plants, with very little meat. I am a vegetarian, and with a friend of mine I started the joke "Pro-Hunting Vegetarians Club" (which has exactly two members) because we both see hunting as a natural, healthy thing for humans (provided that hunters leave enough animals for future hunting) but we object to the way that most meats one can find in the grocery store are produced.
If there were fewer of us, (and meat consumption per capita stayed the same) it would reduce the livestock contributions to global warming. But the same is true of transportation.
Neither is a valid argument for leaving our eating or traveling habits unchanged. People from developed countries aren't really making kids any faster than we're dying off as it is, but we from developed countries are responsible for a huge proportion of the environmental destruction caused by animal agriculture and petroleum use.
Meanwhile, the population in underdeveloped countries will continue to go up for quite some time.
I know people are reluctant to change their diets to something less animal-dependent, but I suspect it will happen one way or the other- in the USA the only way to avoid a large reduction in animal agriculture is probably to continue consuming unsustainable amounts of energy and water resources.
For a human, I don't consider a vegan diet to be very "natural" but then, neither are domesticated animals. I do think it's natural to eat a diet mostly composed of plants, with very little meat. I am a vegetarian, and with a friend of mine I started the joke "Pro-Hunting Vegetarians Club" (which has exactly two members) because we both see hunting as a natural, healthy thing for humans (provided that hunters leave enough animals for future hunting) but we object to the way that most meats one can find in the grocery store are produced.
dynamitemonkey
B12, here you go:
There is a chemical in most soil (no, we are not running out) that is created by bacteria. It is called Cyanocobalamin. You only need about 12 micro grams a day (this is a very small amount). Animals eat plants in the soil, and pass the Cyanocobalamin onto humans. A cow cannot produce cyanocobalamin anymore than a person can. Cyanocobalamin is what a mammal's body metabolizes to make vitamin B12. It is an essential vitamin because our bodies cannot produce it on their own. It is present in most vitamin fortified foods in sufficient quantities for human well being. It is probably possible to get enough of the stuff eating plenty of veggies than haven't been sanitized to death. What you have is constantly redistributed through your body, so you only need a very little each day. B12 plays a role in the nervous system and a lack of it in diet can have adverse side affects.
There is a chemical in most soil (no, we are not running out) that is created by bacteria. It is called Cyanocobalamin. You only need about 12 micro grams a day (this is a very small amount). Animals eat plants in the soil, and pass the Cyanocobalamin onto humans. A cow cannot produce cyanocobalamin anymore than a person can. Cyanocobalamin is what a mammal's body metabolizes to make vitamin B12. It is an essential vitamin because our bodies cannot produce it on their own. It is present in most vitamin fortified foods in sufficient quantities for human well being. It is probably possible to get enough of the stuff eating plenty of veggies than haven't been sanitized to death. What you have is constantly redistributed through your body, so you only need a very little each day. B12 plays a role in the nervous system and a lack of it in diet can have adverse side affects.
maddyfish
I agree that the real issue isn't an overabundance of cows, but rather an overabundance of us. (No, not bicyclists.) I can't really see too many pleasant ways out of our current conundrum, either. We could all stop eating meat, I suppose, but I think a better idea would be to stop breeding like rabbits. Maybe a world-wide one-child rule wouldn't be such a bad idea. (China's population is still huge, and growing, but just think what would've happened to all of us had their government not made such a hard choice...)
^^^^I challenge you to maintain this rule in a free country. Not to hard in slave-China, but try it here.
^^^^I challenge you to maintain this rule in a free country. Not to hard in slave-China, but try it here.
lima_bean
we dont really NEED any laws to reduce breeding in type V countries like the US. Our birthrate is declining naturally. Japan and several other countries have had to deal with birthrates of an average less than 2 which means population decrease, and America's primary source of population growth is immigration and birthrates among 1st generation Americans.
Birth rate decrease and population decrease is most likely part of the natural cycle as the standard of living icnreases.
Birth rate decrease and population decrease is most likely part of the natural cycle as the standard of living icnreases.
kjohnnytarr
Ah ****. The ethics of living on earth and simultaneously caring about the earth is a sticky situation. But for me, it comes down to this: I enjoy eating meat; I don't enjoy cars. I'm here for cultural reasons.
fat_bike_nut
Wow, took a few posts of "we should switch to vegetarianism" without posting anything that addresses my concern before it is addressed at all. Oh well. Thanks for all the people that responded to my concern over the Vitamin B-12 thing, because that really is the main beef I have with Veganism :D
Jolt
Wow, took a few posts of "we should switch to vegetarianism" without posting anything that addresses my concern before it is addressed at all. Oh well. Thanks for all the people that responded to my concern over the Vitamin B-12 thing, because that really is the main beef I have with Veganism :D
Pun intended? If not, that's even funnier!
Pun intended? If not, that's even funnier!
Jolt
B12, here you go:
There is a chemical in most soil (no, we are not running out) that is created by bacteria. It is called Cyanocobalamin. You only need about 12 micro grams a day (this is a very small amount). Animals eat plants in the soil, and pass the Cyanocobalamin onto humans. A cow cannot produce cyanocobalamin anymore than a person can. Cyanocobalamin is what a mammal's body metabolizes to make vitamin B12. It is an essential vitamin because our bodies cannot produce it on their own. It is present in most vitamin fortified foods in sufficient quantities for human well being. It is probably possible to get enough of the stuff eating plenty of veggies than haven't been sanitized to death. What you have is constantly redistributed through your body, so you only need a very little each day. B12 plays a role in the nervous system and a lack of it in diet can have adverse side affects.
Where did you get this info? And if it is in the soil and in some plants, maybe it's more concentrated in the plants eaten by the cows etc. (that we can't digest) than in the ones we eat. I'd be interested to know more about this.
There is a chemical in most soil (no, we are not running out) that is created by bacteria. It is called Cyanocobalamin. You only need about 12 micro grams a day (this is a very small amount). Animals eat plants in the soil, and pass the Cyanocobalamin onto humans. A cow cannot produce cyanocobalamin anymore than a person can. Cyanocobalamin is what a mammal's body metabolizes to make vitamin B12. It is an essential vitamin because our bodies cannot produce it on their own. It is present in most vitamin fortified foods in sufficient quantities for human well being. It is probably possible to get enough of the stuff eating plenty of veggies than haven't been sanitized to death. What you have is constantly redistributed through your body, so you only need a very little each day. B12 plays a role in the nervous system and a lack of it in diet can have adverse side affects.
Where did you get this info? And if it is in the soil and in some plants, maybe it's more concentrated in the plants eaten by the cows etc. (that we can't digest) than in the ones we eat. I'd be interested to know more about this.
Jolt
For a human, I don't consider a vegan diet to be very "natural" but then, neither are domesticated animals. I do think it's natural to eat a diet mostly composed of plants, with very little meat. I am a vegetarian, and with a friend of mine I started the joke "Pro-Hunting Vegetarians Club" (which has exactly two members) because we both see hunting as a natural, healthy thing for humans (provided that hunters leave enough animals for future hunting) but we object to the way that most meats one can find in the grocery store are produced.
Very good point there. The meat of animals raised using modern farming practices is not the same as that of animals raised in a more natural way or hunted in the wild, and it is not as healthy for us as a result.
Very good point there. The meat of animals raised using modern farming practices is not the same as that of animals raised in a more natural way or hunted in the wild, and it is not as healthy for us as a result.
Roody
we dont really NEED any laws to reduce breeding in type V countries like the US. Our birthrate is declining naturally. Japan and several other countries have had to deal with birthrates of an average less than 2 which means population decrease, and America's primary source of population growth is immigration and birthrates among 1st generation Americans.
Birth rate decrease and population decrease is most likely part of the natural cycle as the standard of living icnreases.
Well, I basically agree, but I'm not sure it's accurate to call this a "natural cycle." There are reasons for it, and it would help humanity if we could understand the reasons and apply them to our population problem.
One apparent reason that birth rates go down as income levels go up has to do with the education of girls and young women. Young women who have rewarding jobs don't usually want to give up their incomes in order to have children. They typically defer kiddies until they're older, and then only have one or two.
Birth increments have been going down steadily since the early 1970s, IIRC. The UN predicts that world population will peak at 10 billion at the end of this century, briefly stabilize, then gradually decline over the following 3 or 4 centuries. If this is accurate, overpopulation is basically a non-issue. The solution for sustainability lies rather in cutting back on per capita consumption of resources, especially in rich countries like the US and Europe.
Birth rate decrease and population decrease is most likely part of the natural cycle as the standard of living icnreases.
Well, I basically agree, but I'm not sure it's accurate to call this a "natural cycle." There are reasons for it, and it would help humanity if we could understand the reasons and apply them to our population problem.
One apparent reason that birth rates go down as income levels go up has to do with the education of girls and young women. Young women who have rewarding jobs don't usually want to give up their incomes in order to have children. They typically defer kiddies until they're older, and then only have one or two.
Birth increments have been going down steadily since the early 1970s, IIRC. The UN predicts that world population will peak at 10 billion at the end of this century, briefly stabilize, then gradually decline over the following 3 or 4 centuries. If this is accurate, overpopulation is basically a non-issue. The solution for sustainability lies rather in cutting back on per capita consumption of resources, especially in rich countries like the US and Europe.
lima_bean
As a vegan it is insanely easy to get your required B12, its extremely rare that you even have to think about it.
from wikipedia:
However B12 deficiencies in vegans are so uncommon that the medical press still record cases.
from wikipedia:
However B12 deficiencies in vegans are so uncommon that the medical press still record cases.
lima_bean
Well, I basically agree, but I'm not sure it's accurate to call this a "natural cycle." There are reasons for it, and it would help humanity if we could understand the reasons and apply them to our population problem.
One apparent reason that birth rates go down as income levels go up has to do with the education of girls and young women. Young women who have rewarding jobs don't usually want to give up their incomes in order to have children. They typically defer kiddies until they're older, and then only have one or two.
Birth increments have been going down steadily since the early 1970s, IIRC. The UN predicts that world population will peak at 10 billion at the end of this century, briefly stabilize, then gradually decline over the following 3 or 4 centuries. If this is accurate, overpopulation is basically a non-issue. The solution for sustainability lies rather in cutting back on per capita consumption of resources, especially in rich countries like the US and Europe.
Interesting information, thanks!
One apparent reason that birth rates go down as income levels go up has to do with the education of girls and young women. Young women who have rewarding jobs don't usually want to give up their incomes in order to have children. They typically defer kiddies until they're older, and then only have one or two.
Birth increments have been going down steadily since the early 1970s, IIRC. The UN predicts that world population will peak at 10 billion at the end of this century, briefly stabilize, then gradually decline over the following 3 or 4 centuries. If this is accurate, overpopulation is basically a non-issue. The solution for sustainability lies rather in cutting back on per capita consumption of resources, especially in rich countries like the US and Europe.
Interesting information, thanks!
R6G
As a vegan it is insanely easy to get your required B12, its extremely rare that you even have to think about it.
from wikipedia:
I agree. I get B12 from soymilk (a lot of them are fortified with B12), and nutritional yeast. You can sprinkle nutritional yeast on just about anything, and I think it tastes great especially on popcorns. Miso paste also got B12. So if you like miso soup, you can get the vitamin that way as well.
from wikipedia:
I agree. I get B12 from soymilk (a lot of them are fortified with B12), and nutritional yeast. You can sprinkle nutritional yeast on just about anything, and I think it tastes great especially on popcorns. Miso paste also got B12. So if you like miso soup, you can get the vitamin that way as well.
bhtooefr
What about just removing the warning labels from everything, and letting the stupid people kill themselves? :D
(Also, how about removing the laws that protect stupid people?)
In addition, on a slightly more serious note, maybe free vasectomies and tubal ligations?
That'll cure the overpopulation problem VERY quickly, and reduce the need for livestock.
I know I'll never want kids - I hate the things, and I know it's bad for the planet. Therefore, I'd be an ideal candidate for that free vasectomy.
As for the meat... I would not be TOTALLY opposed to soylent green, due to the simple fact that it helps the planet, and it is still meat. I couldn't go vegetarian, though. Cars, I know I'll be car-light at best... I like them too much.
(Also, how about removing the laws that protect stupid people?)
In addition, on a slightly more serious note, maybe free vasectomies and tubal ligations?
That'll cure the overpopulation problem VERY quickly, and reduce the need for livestock.
I know I'll never want kids - I hate the things, and I know it's bad for the planet. Therefore, I'd be an ideal candidate for that free vasectomy.
As for the meat... I would not be TOTALLY opposed to soylent green, due to the simple fact that it helps the planet, and it is still meat. I couldn't go vegetarian, though. Cars, I know I'll be car-light at best... I like them too much.
bragi
^^^^I challenge you to maintain this rule in a free country. Not to hard in slave-China, but try it here.
I never in a million years actually imagine that a one-child law would ever get off the ground anywhere outside of an authoritarian state; but I do think the Chinese really had no choice, given their situation. My main point, though, was that human population numbers are already unsustainable. We can't indefinitely maintain the population we have now, much less the 10 billion that will exist when population growth finally levels off. Instead of living off of nature's interest, we're living on the capital, and have been doing so for decades, and soon, if we don't do something desperate, nature is going insist, in very forceful terms, that we pay the balance. Maybe all of us really should stop eating meat...
I never in a million years actually imagine that a one-child law would ever get off the ground anywhere outside of an authoritarian state; but I do think the Chinese really had no choice, given their situation. My main point, though, was that human population numbers are already unsustainable. We can't indefinitely maintain the population we have now, much less the 10 billion that will exist when population growth finally levels off. Instead of living off of nature's interest, we're living on the capital, and have been doing so for decades, and soon, if we don't do something desperate, nature is going insist, in very forceful terms, that we pay the balance. Maybe all of us really should stop eating meat...
Robert C
The over representation of males in the Chinese population is interesting, a one son rule might have been better for China. The next time China goes to war it might not be for oil but for brides.
I am in China (been here for about a year and expect one more year) and this has been discussed. Many of the young men see it as a real future.
I am in China (been here for about a year and expect one more year) and this has been discussed. Many of the young men see it as a real future.
BostonFixed
^^^^I challenge you to maintain this rule in a free country. Not to hard in slave-China, but try it here.
Well, stop with the abstinence-only sex education in this country and you have a running start..
Well, stop with the abstinence-only sex education in this country and you have a running start..
In Absentia
free vasectomy.
Where do I sign up? :D
I couldn't go vegetarian, though.
I used to think the same thing. Now I can't imagine going back to eating meat.
Where do I sign up? :D
I couldn't go vegetarian, though.
I used to think the same thing. Now I can't imagine going back to eating meat.
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