Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - suicidal?

The other day thanks to the "fixed/free hub" thread I discovered that fixed and free cogs had the same threading. Before, LBS's had always seemed pretty convinced that a free cog had to go on a free thread etc. I have a fixed/free ENO hub. I have put a 16t on the fixed side with a lockring to give me 75 inches for the road and a 14t on the other side, suicide; sans lock ring, to give 86 inches for the track. Is this the right way round, is there anything I can put on the suicide side to make it a bit safer?

Yeah, a lockring for a bottom bracket, preferably with threadlocker compound.

(for the 43657457231098th time)

The lock ring really does not lock anything if it is threaded the same direction. Use red loctite and hope for the best.

Tighten both the BB lockring and the cog down plenty tight and you'll be OK. I ran a setup like that on the street brakeless for a few months with not a bit of slippage, no loctite involved. If that side is only going to be used for the track, though, it's probably no big deal since you really don't put down much backpressure on the track. Hell, a lot of racers don't even bother with lockrings on the track...

If it's just for the track don't worry about it. Most people don't use lockrings unless required to anyway.

i thought this was a mike muir related thread

i thought this was a mike muir related thread

Join the army, the suic-wait ... ****. Ya, me too.

If it's just for the track don't worry about it. Most people don't use lockrings unless required to anyway.

Yup. Just be careful not to resist. It will probably hold up to light resistance, but you don't wanna find out, do you?

The BB lockring might give you a little more peace of mind, but plenty of people have safely ridden on the track sans lockring.

Yup. Just be careful not to resist. It will probably hold up to light resistance, but you don't wanna find out, do you?


whether you have a lockring or not you should NEVER be resisting hard enough to spin off a cog on the track. It's dangerous and unnecessary.

Properly tightnened and installed quality cogs on a quality hub shouldn't spin off anyways, track or street...

ugh. i can only imagine. unnecessary indeed! i can't imagine how slowing down would be of any help in the kinds of packs and races i was watching out at kissena this weekend (VeloCity - so much fun...)

ugh. i can only imagine. unnecessary indeed! i can't imagine how slowing down would be of any help in the kinds of packs and races i was watching out at kissena this weekend (VeloCity - so much fun...)

Noone has brakes, Noone can stop fast. Applying excessive pressure is dangerous for you and everyone behind you and therefore incredibly poor form. Maybe if you are in a five race full of street fg riders who shouldn't be racing yet it might be necessary if all of the dumbasses in front of you stop short. In general though this doesn't happen. Even higher cat track races aren't like the ****fest of braking that is a cat 5 crit.


If you are riding around people who belong in a race then stopping even in a pack hard enough to approach spinning off a cog simply won't happen.

dude, your folder is totally rad, but no track will let you ride that (i'm assuming you're referring to the folder, with the mention of the eno hub) -- not even sure if your local track will allow any bike that *requires* an eno hub (again, going out on a limb and assuming road conversion)

dude, your folder is totally rad, but no track will let you ride that(i'm assuming you're referring to the folder, with the mention of the eno hub) -- not even sure if your local track will allow any bike that *requires* an eno hub (again, going out on a limb and assuming road conversion)


He already has been riding and just ignoring the unhappy looks from everyone else. Plenty of shallower tracks will allow road conversions and there is really nothing wrong with that. I for one would not be willing to ride in close quarters with someone on a folder though. Other people aren't so worried or more passive aggressive then I am apparently.

seriously? holy ****.

edit: also, you immortalized my parenthesis typo...

... but plenty of people have safely ridden on the track sans lockring.


.....and on the street too, for that matter......

not really any thread sticking out past the cog to put a bb lock ring on (only about 0.5 mm)

I do ride it at the track, but only in training, not racing. I do come almost last in every pracitce race, but then I borrowed a track bike and still came last, so I know the problem is my legs, not the bike.

Just wondering why you are all so scared of it. If it is something to do with crashes, I don't really get it, if you are going to be throwing bits of metal at someone at 30mph, then does the shape of it really matter that much, unless it is really spikey. It is a really solid frame so it is not like anything is going to fall off it in the middle of the race.

not really any thread sticking out past the cog to put a bb lock ring on (only about 0.5 mm)

I do ride it at the track, but only in training, not racing. I do come almost last in every pracitce race, but then I borrowed a track bike and still came last, so I know the problem is my legs, not the bike.

Just wondering why you are all so scared of it. If it is something to do with crashes, I don't really get it, if you are going to be throwing bits of metal at someone at 30mph, then does the shape of it really matter that much, unless it is really spikey. It is a really solid frame so it is not like anything is going to fall off it in the middle of the race.

Because every folder I have ever ridden handles like ****. I don't want someone near me even in a practice race on a bike with that poor handling, especially a noob. Folders are fine for many things but riding shoulder to shoulder on a steeply banked surface is not one of them.

Because every folder I have ever ridden handles like ****. I don't want someone near me even in a practice race on a bike with that poor handling, especially a noob. Folders are fine for many things but riding shoulder to shoulder on a steeply banked surface is not one of them.

No offense, but you haven't riden my bike and the handling is great. I definitely feel safer, more secure and more controlled on my bike than I did on the track bike I borrowed. But I am a complete noob so I wouldn't recomend riding that close to me, no matter what bike I am on.

Dude, that's so rad. You should start doing cyclocross races on it too. Then when people stop looking at you funny at the CX races, do a Downhill MTB race on it.

can you ride a folder conversion at the velodrome? methinks you can't. i'm also not an expert, and know rules often vary from 'drome to 'drome, but still...i sort of doubt they'll let you ride it there.

People are seriously having this conversation? Have some common sense and use a track bike on a track. The place isn't your own personal novelty show.

when I lived in asheville nc, I used to ride on their mellowdrome and have to dodge geared time trial bikes, roller blades, and strollers...

People are seriously having this conversation? Have some common sense and use a track bike on a track. The place isn't your own personal novelty show.

I am not doing it to be novel, I have tried track bikes, but I didn't like them, I don't like the handling which makes me feel unsafe on the banking and in a pack. I know I have a serious minority opinion with this, but I am quite competitive by nature and if I thought I could do better on a track bike, I would be riding one.

And anyway this was meant to be a thread about suicide fixed cogs, not criticising my bike.

No offense, but you haven't riden my bike and the handling is great.

No but folders in general sacrifice handling for foldability. Super long stem + small wheel = nearly impossible to perfect both balance and steering geometry. Even if they didn't 20" wheels with your COM at close to normal height is going to lead to ****ty handling. Not to mention your absurd position on the bike(from your help my hands hurt thread) but of course you could replicate that on a track bike anyway.

If you don't think you would do better on a track bike you are seriously delusional. Your tiny wheels may be more aerodynamic but a track bike will:
-Handle better which is of prime importance unless you are purely a breakaway guy.
-be much much stiffer. While the relation between stiffness and efficiency is debatable I think anyone who has mashed on a folder can see pretty clearly where the super long stem and folding lead to a bike that is far from optimal.
-allow better position on the bike. Sure you can adjust it by moving the seat and bars but the limitations of folding combined with them not being meant as race bikes makes it hard to get an ideal position for the short efforts required on the track and even harder to match this position with ideal weight distribution.

Maybe it's not enough of an advantage to make up for any engine or tactical deficiencies right now. But you are starting to sound like you think of your folder as a long term solution on the track which it isn't. You probably feel uncomfortable on a track bike because you are used to riding your ****ty folder which(probably) steers with the bars as opposed to your weight.

Your suicide cog is fine but seriously consider using a track bike on the track even if it is just a loaner.

when I lived in asheville nc, I used to ride on their mellowdrome and have to dodge geared time trial bikes, roller blades, and strollers...

from everything i've heard, asheville sounds like a nutso place.

Dude, I cant believe they let you anywhere near a track on that thing. No offense meant here, but you are a total nut-job. I'm in awe.

well geometry aside, that elostomer suspension thingy on your bike is gonna rob power. If you can ride that thing safely on the track, and they'll let you, then more power to you, but don't delude yourself into thinking you can go faster on it. Stiff light frames are faster, and better handling, and while I'm sure it's great for it's intended purpose, your Airnimal is no race bike.

No but folders in general sacrifice handling for foldability. Super long stem + small wheel = nearly impossible to perfect both balance and steering geometry. Even if they didn't 20" wheels with your COM at close to normal height is going to lead to ****ty handling. Not to mention your absurd position on the bike(from your help my hands hurt thread) but of course you could replicate that on a track bike anyway.



You're right that folders *in general* sacrifice handling for foldability. The way a bike handles has very little to do with the size of the wheels and everything to do with the geometry. Sure, the rake of the fork has to compensate for the smaller wheel, but you could easily design a very stable bike with 20" wheels just like it isn't hard to design a super twitchy bike with 700c wheels. Folders *in general* tend to be twitchy due to the short wheel base (for foldability) and overall geometry (again for foldability), not due to the size of the wheels. It's silly to assume that the Folder in question handles like the Dahon or whatever other folder you have ridden. Look at the pictures of his bike all folded up from his site, it doesn't fold down nearly as well as a Dahon which leads me to believe it was designed to fold without compromising handling too much.

I do agree that a folder may not be the best choice for the track, but a track bike probably isn't the best choice for the street but people do that all the time.

You're right that folders *in general* sacrifice handling for foldability. The way a bike handles has very little to do with the size of the wheels and everything to do with the geometry. Sure, the rake of the fork has to compensate for the smaller wheel, but you could easily design a very stable bike with 20" wheels just like it isn't hard to design a super twitchy bike with 700c wheels. Folders *in general* tend to be twitchy due to the short wheel base (for foldability) and overall geometry (again for foldability), not due to the size of the wheels. It's silly to assume that the Folder in question handles like the Dahon or whatever other folder you have ridden. Look at the pictures of his bike all folded up from his site, it doesn't fold down nearly as well as a Dahon which leads me to believe it was designed to fold without compromising handling too much.

I do agree that a folder may not be the best choice for the track, but a track bike probably isn't the best choice for the street but people do that all the time.

No, small wheels by themselves have a huge impact on handling especially at speed. The size alone means they do not provide the same gyroscopic effect of large wheels. This profoundly effects handling.

Further, as I already pointed out, the super long stem(steerertube whatever you want to call it) and small wheel limits the rake/ht angle combinations you can use without messing up the balance.

Sure some folders will be better then others but they all suck compared to a real bike.

After looking at his blog I am even more convinced of the inappropriatness of this bike. Rear suspension? On something that was already sloppy. Far from being the performance machine you and he describe this bike is equivalent to a hybrid with all the baggage of a folder too. NOT a good choice for the track.

No, small wheels by themselves have a huge impact on handling especially at speed. The size alone means they do not provide the same gyroscopic effect of large wheels. This profoundly effects handling.

Further, as I already pointed out, the super long stem(steerertube whatever you want to call it) and small wheel limits the rake/ht angle combinations you can use without messing up the balance.

Sure some folders will be better then others but they all suck compared to a real bike.

After looking at his blog I am even more convinced of the inappropriatness of this bike. Rear suspension? On something that was already sloppy. Far from being the performance machine you and he describe this bike is equivalent to a hybrid with all the baggage of a folder too. NOT a good choice for the track.

I never claimed it was a high performance machine, just that it doesn't look like your average folder to me. I'm also convinced that you can make a 20" wheeled bike that handles just as well as a 700c bike. The gyroscopic effect is not important. Some dude built a bike with a set of fly wheels the rotated the opposite direction of the wheels to cancel the gyroscopic effect and it did not affect the stability or handling of the bike. Obviously you can compensate for the headtube angle by changing the trail of the fork. While it's true that there are limits to what you can do, I remain convinced that it is possible to design a folding bike with good handling. I don't know if mintyai's bike is such a machine, but I don't see any reason to think it would be dangerous for him to ride it on the track.

from everything i've heard, asheville sounds like a nutso place.


it is. fun to visit, just don't move there.

The gyroscopic effect is not important. Some dude built a bike with a set of fly wheels the rotated the opposite direction of the wheels to cancel the gyroscopic effect and it did not affect the stability or handling of the bike. Obviously you can compensate for the headtube angle by changing the trail of the fork.

As I have said twice now having a steerertube that comes up all the way to the bars limits your freedom in setting up head tube angle and rake. Make the headtube shallow and you push the bars back. make it steep with low rake and the balance gets ****ed because the bars are too far forward. This is a concern with all bikes but because of the axle to ground/axle to fork crown/fork crown to bar distance on a folder it is much harder to deal with. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough before regarding balance and steering geometry.

Just because you CAN ride a bike without gyrosopic effect does not mean it handles exactly the same. I don't think even the guy who made the flywheel bike you mentioned would claim that.

Cheers kemmer for sticking up for my bike. First, you are right that airnimal sacrificed folding ability for handling, you have to take the front wheel off to fold the bike and then it still doesn't get that small. It is intended to fold so that you can put it in a suitcase and take it on the plane. The coolest time I have used the folding was to take it on the bus when I had a puncture in the rain at night - it was a pain to carry it on and find a place for it (not something I would like to do every day, but it was better trying to fix a flat with mud and crap all over my wheels in the dark.

I would not call that yellow thing at the back proper suspension, it only has about 2-3 mm of travel and I spaced it out so that it is a scant 2mm now. It is more to compensate that the 24" (note, not 20") wheels are stiffer than 700C wheels, shorter spokes, less springy rims etc. The carbon fork does the same job at the front.

Duret, what's all this about "good handling"? could you please define this. As I see it a smaller wheeled bike is generally going to be more responsive than a 700C bike (that is why I prefer it) so you are looking for unresponsivness? or could it be that you ride 700 bikes all day long and so your body is used to the feel of that and when you try something else, it feels wrong... I ride this all day long so when I ride a 700 bike it feels wrong to my body. Why can't handling be a personal thing like saddle choice or god forbid, al vs steel? (I really know how to calm down a debat huh?).

For my riding position, I have changed the bars to the top of the stem now thanks to the advice on this forum, I just found it strange that handlbar position could affect pains in my butt.

I would like to invite you to try my bike (if ever you are in London) and then see what you think, it is very different to any other bike that I have tried and so I think it is a little unfair to criticise it without riding.

Lastly you should also check out moulton bikes http://www.alexmoulton.co.uk/ really amazing bikes. Alex Moulton did lots of serious research into what was the best wheel size and reasised that 20" with good suspension was the way to go. They ride like you are floating on air, which is an amazing experience, but I found it a little bit disconected from the road. They are very fast as well, they hold the speed record for cycling in an upright position at 51.29 mph (unpaced, but with a fairing). If you ever get a chance to ride one of them, you should jump at it. They also used to ride moultons on the track with something like a 64/14 gearing. I would have loved one, but they are a bit pricey for me.

i totally dig your project, but i'm starting to think that you are absolutely crazy...

i thought it was just that, a project. is it really your "bike"?

get it off the track, it has absolutely no place there, and you defending it makes you sound silly.

also, whatever track that is allowing that thing on it has gotta be more of a go-cart course than a velodrome.