Bicycle Mechanics - Contemplating Shimano->Campy

I'm contemplating a move to Campy. I've currently got the following on my bike:

[1] FSA crank (double) and chainrings mated to Shimano Dura-Ace BB (splined)

[2] Mavic Ksyrium wheels laced to Mavic FTS hubs

[3] The rest of the relevant parts are all Shimano Dura-Ace

My question becomes, what are the minimum number of things I could get away with substituting in order to get me Campy Record-10? I was thinking I'd need the following:

[1] Both left and right brifters

[2] FD

[3] RD

[4] Cassette - My mechanic runs a Shimano 9sp cassette with his Campy drivetrain because Shimano cassettes are cheaper for one thing. I wonder if the new 10sp Shimano cassette will work with Record.

[5] Chain

Now... points of question:

[1] Will I need to replace my crank and BB? I know Shimano and Campy spindle lengths are different but I wonder if there's a way to adjust my chainline without having to replace the whole crankset.

[2] Will I need a new rear wheel/hub? Can I replace the freehub body and mount a 10sp cassette? If I can use a Shimano 10sp cassette, will it fit on my current freehub body that's already Shimano 9sp compatible?

[3] Will Ergo levers pull the right amount of cable for Shimano Dura-Ace brake calipers? I know the Campy rear brake is a single-pivot and the front is dual-pivot and Dura-Ace are both dual-pivot. If I stick with the Shimano calipers, will there be an issue with the rear or both front and rear?

I think those are all the issues. Have I missed anything?

This sounds like a high-ticket total rebuild to me. For example, the cranks and BBs are incompatible, and Shimano cogsets have traditiionally been incompatible with Campag. indexing. Although I am a Campag. fan, I would hesitate to spend the money necessary for your makeover.

Can you priortize your wants and needs? Do you covet Campag. because of crank flex, because of shifting response, because of bearing hardness, because of reliability, because of repairability, because of image, or all of the above? Do you expect Campag. cranks to be stiffer than Shimanos?

If you want to try a halfway conversion, keep your brake calipers, crankset and BB and replace your derailleurs, brake lever/shifters, hubs, and cogs. Otherwise, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Originally posted by John E

Can you priortize your wants and needs?

I'd like 10sp but that's not entirely a high priority. I like the shape of the Ergo hoods and the lever arrangement most of all. The reliability and rebuildability is somewhat of a factour too. My D-A levers have developed a tad bit of play. They don't rattle yet but I understand that's only a matter of time. As far as cranks go, I don't want Campy cranks at all. I'd prefer to keep my FSA cranks but I'm willing to swap out the BB if needed. However, the FSA cranks are made for Shimano spline. I'd really rather not have to replace my hubs since they're tied to the wheelset. If I just have to replace the freehub body then that would be ideal.

I'm not positive of the mechanicals on the Ksyriums versus the latest crop of Ksyriums, but I would expect the Mavic M-10 cassette to fit it:

http://www.mavic.com/servlet/srt/mavic/road-prod_fiche?produitsid=90&lg=uk

As you can see, two of the kits come with extra cogs for customization, and can be spaced for 9sp or 10sp.

I think your crankset is fine as-is, unless it's just that the chainrings are too worn to reliably accept a new chain at this point in their life. The positioning shouldn't be an issue... the chainline ought to line up just the same as on a Campy/Campy combo, or close enough to make no difference.

The brake-lever question is interesting. When I build up my road frameset someday, I'd like a Shimano drivetrain but Campagnolo brakes (I like the orbital pad adjustment on Campy). I have no idea if the brake levers now have different cable-pull ratios for the differential brakes or not. Personally, I'm probably just going for the Centuar brake calipers anyway, which are dual-pivot on both front and rear. Since Centuar is 10sp, you could even consider Centuar levers, which are definitely designed for dual-pivot calipers. Just some ideas, HTH :)

MechBgon,

Did Campy change back to dual-pivot front and rear, again? My year-old Record brakes are only single-pivot in back. I believe this was done for two reasons: 1) lighter weight and 2) reduce the braking power in the back to reduce the likelihood of locking up the rear wheel.

The second thing I'd like to point out is that you may not need to replace the front derailleur. I've been using a Dura-Ace fr. der. on my bike with both 80's era Campy NR cranks and downtube friction shifters, as well as with the Campy 9-spd Racing-T for quite a while now with no problems. Because of the degree of trimming that the Campy brifters provide, they seem to be pretty adaptable to different fr. derailleurs.

Originally posted by SteveE
MechBgon,

Did Campy change back to dual-pivot front and rear, again? My year-old Record brakes are only single-pivot in back. I believe this was done for two reasons: 1) lighter weight and 2) reduce the braking power in the back to reduce the likelihood of locking up the rear wheel.

The second thing I'd like to point out is that you may not need to replace the front derailleur. I've been using a Dura-Ace fr. der. on my bike with both 80's era Campy NR cranks and downtube friction shifters, as well as with the Campy 9-spd Racing-T for quite a while now with no problems. Because of the degree of trimming that the Campy brifters provide, they seem to be pretty adaptable to different fr. derailleurs. Hey, good idea about the front derailleur! :) With the tunability of Ergopower... yeah.

Chorus and Record have the single-pivot brake in the rear for reduced weight, while Centuar is sticking with dual-pivot. I haven't kept up on the year-by-year changes with Campy's lineup very well, but someone around here will have a ready answer as to when they adopted the single-pivot rear brakes :confused:

you dont need to buy new hubs to use a campy 10 speed system.

Wheels MFG makes a kit that'll allow you to use campy shifters/deraillers on a shimano style freehub. the only exceptions are:

spinergy spox
chris king
shimano factory wheels

check out the "accelerator 10 speed" at http://www.wheelsmfg.com/technology.html

any bike shop should be able to order it for you.

If the only reason you like Campy is the ergo levers, just buy Ergo levers and keep the rest of it Shimano.

I don't recall if it is Lennard Zinn at www.velonews.com or Uncle Al at www.roadbikerider.com, but one of them has an entire section on cross compatibility between Campy and Shimano gear. Go to either site and search and you will be rewarded. It is quite extensive and should answer all of your questions. If not, then both LZ and U.Al are very good at getting back to folks who send them e-mail questions.

Originally posted by mechBgon
The brake-lever question is interesting. When I build up my road frameset someday, I'd like a Shimano drivetrain but Campagnolo brakes (I like the orbital pad adjustment on Campy). I have no idea if the brake levers now have different cable-pull ratios for the differential brakes or not. Personally, I'm probably just going for the Centuar brake calipers anyway, which are dual-pivot on both front and rear. Since Centuar is 10sp, you could even consider Centuar levers, which are definitely designed for dual-pivot calipers. Just some ideas, HTH :) You might have a problem with bake release- on campy the release is in the levers and in shimano it is on the brakes. Using shimano levers with campy brakes I am not sure how you could release the brakes.

Originally posted by Scapin
I don't recall if it is Lennard Zinn at www.velonews.com or Uncle Al at www.roadbikerider.com, but one of them has an entire section on cross compatibility between Campy and Shimano gear. Go to either site and search and you will be rewarded. It is quite extensive and should answer all of your questions. If not, then both LZ and U.Al are very good at getting back to folks who send them e-mail questions. Sheldon Brown offeres a mixxed set he calls shimanaglo.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/kits.html

Originally posted by RacerX
If the only reason you like Campy is the ergo levers, just buy Ergo levers and keep the rest of it Shimano.

Oh wow... I didn't think this was possible. I thought Campy shifters might be a problem with Shimano derailleurs... especially the rear. OTOH, I wouldn't mind going to 10sp Campy because I desperately want a 16. Does anyone know if the new Shimano 10sp cassettes include a 16 in a nice range?

Originally posted by FOG
You might have a problem with bake release- on campy the release is in the levers and in shimano it is on the brakes. Using shimano levers with campy brakes I am not sure how you could release the brakes.

No problem. You leave the Shimano brake release in its normal position. You just use the release on the Ergo lever. The cool thing about the Ergo system is that you still have full braking power, even if you forget to put the pin back into the normal position. You can even put the pin back into place while riding, if you're careful not to squeeze the levers too much.

Originally posted by SteveE
No problem. You leave the Shimano brake release in its normal position. You just use the release on the Ergo lever. The cool thing about the Ergo system is that you still have full braking power, even if you forget to put the pin back into the normal position. You can even put the pin back into place while riding, if you're careful not to squeeze the levers too much. I agree if you use ergo levers and shimano brakes, but mechbgon wanted to use shimano levers and campy brakes. That would be tricky.

FOG,

I stand corrected. It would be a problem. In that case, I think he should just bite the bullet and do the right thing --- Go all Campy! :D Anyway, I think it was Khuon, not MechBgon, who wanted the upgrade. I really think that Khuon wants to be talked into going full Campy, 'tho.

Originally posted by SteveE
I really think that Khuon wants to be talked into going full Campy, 'tho.

I guess I'm trying to get away with as little as possible. It's my finance minister (read: wife) who will ultimately need convincing. :D

Mavic, wheels manuf. and American classic all make 10sp cassette to fit on shimano splined hubs so that is not a real big concern they are more expensive though which is a drawback. Also would need RD, STI levers and possibly a new FD I would try with the shimano one first to save money if does not work go buy the campy one.

Originally posted by John E
This sounds like a high-ticket total rebuild to me. For example, the cranks and BBs are incompatible, and Shimano cogsets have traditiionally been incompatible with Campag. indexing. Although I am a Campag. fan, I would hesitate to spend the money necessary for your makeover.

Can you priortize your wants and needs? Do you covet Campag. because of crank flex, because of shifting response, because of bearing hardness, because of reliability, because of repairability, because of image, or all of the above? Do you expect Campag. cranks to be stiffer than Shimanos?

If you want to try a halfway conversion, keep your brake calipers, crankset and BB and replace your derailleurs, brake lever/shifters, hubs, and cogs. Otherwise, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

I wouldn't replace it all... I have to agree with John here, if you want to convert some stuff to campy do this....

keep your sti shifters (and cranks if you ask me...), Then get campy deraileurs and a campy rear cluster, with a spacing kit for shimano (campy uses 2.8 mm resin spacers, while shimano uses 2.56 mm spacers, assuming you are using 9 speed...) then you would be more campy than shimano but it would not cost all that much.... otherwise you are looking at a pretty big investment to get a full campy groupo

http://www.gvhbikes.com
has some good prices on full groups

Why don't you just get the Campagnolo Ergo levers? They cost about $180 for Chorus levers and alot less for Centaur. That's where you notice it the most, since that is the only component you touch. I can't think of a cheaper solution than that.

Originally posted by Patricia
Why don't you just get the Campagnolo Ergo levers? They cost about $180 for Chorus levers and alot less for Centaur. That's where you notice it the most, since that is the only component you touch. I can't think of a cheaper solution than that.

Yes... that's what I intend to do but I'm thinking I might need to change out other parts of the drivetrain as well.

Originally posted by VegasCyclist

keep your sti shifters

But it's the STI shifters that I want to get away from.

Originally posted by khuon
Yes... that's what I intend to do but I'm thinking I might need to change out other parts of the drivetrain as well.

No, Patricia is right.

Great... I think I'll try just swapping out the brifters first. I do want to go full Campy at some point but it'd be great if it's like what Father Guido Sarducci says, "you too can be da pope but you don't have to buy everything at once... can start out with just da hat."

Do Campy shifters jive interchangeably with Shimano derailleurs these days, as far as indexing goes? I can see using Shimano and Campy 9sp cogs interchangeably, but was under the impression that you need either Shimano+Shimano or Campy+Campy when it comes to the rear shifter/derailleur combo, due to differing actuation ratios. That seems to be borne out by Sheldon Brown:

Campagnolo Ergo shifters are rebuildable and upgradeable. They use of different, opposite motions for upshifting and downshifting. This makes them more intuitive in use and reduces the risk of missing a shift. They don't have any free-floating cables to get in the way of your handlebar bag or other accessories.
The front (left) Ergo shifter is not indexed, so it works with any front derailer and any combination of chainring sizes.

The use of Campagnolo shifters requires a Campagnolo rear derailer.

you could do right ergo, rear mech, and then put a dura-ace downtube shifter on, the just use a campy aero lever on the left. voila, a lance bike, only campy!

If need be, you can just do this, then add the left ergo next. not sure why you wanna switch anyway...ok, that was a cheap shot. :D don't want to start a war.

Originally posted by Phatman
If need be, you can just do this, then add the left ergo next. not sure why you wanna switch anyway...ok, that was a cheap shot. :D don't want to start a war.

Haha! Actually, I don't mind D-A so much. I think it's still a quality group. I've been test riding Campy equipped bikes more lately and have been finding that the shape of the hoods, lever arrangement and operation are more to my liking. And no I don't like Sora shifters because unlike the Campy levers, I can't shift from the drops. Also, I want that 16 tooth.

Originally posted by mechBgon
Do Campy shifters jive interchangeably with Shimano derailleurs these days, as far as indexing goes?

10 speed ergo levers work with Shimano. You need nothing else.

Originally posted by RacerX
10 speed ergo levers work with Shimano. You need nothing else.

sorta, the spacing is different if you have a shimano cluster (yet the derailleur will work fine with a campy cluster), I ride with a campy ergo shifter and a shimano ultegra cluster, with a spacing kit the shifting is perfect (even with a shimano derailleur)

but in the end it is easy to do (and cost effective)

I guess I'm not making myself clear on this since this is about the 4th time I said this- which is my fault. What I meant to say is this:

With a 100% Shimano system including the 9 speed cogset/shimano freehub, you only need replace the STI with Ergo levers.

To put it another way: Take a Shimano Dura Ace equipped bike and remove the STI levers. Put Ergo levers on.

Things you need to purchase: 1 set of Campagnolo Ergo levers... and some new cables/housing, of course (that can be Shimano too-save you some bucks).

The only reason I do this is because I want 9 speed on one of my bikes for cross (already have 2 shimano wheelsets-why waste 'em). I use full Campy on my other bikes. I don't want to go back and forth between STI and Ergo. Anyway, I like Ergo much better so I put Campy Ergo levers on my otherwise Shimano bike. I saw another cross guy here in Los Angeles with that setup, which is how I learned about it.
Besides that, I really can't see a reason to mix the two.

Originally posted by RacerX
I guess I'm not making myself clear on this since this is about the 4th time I said this- which is my fault. What I meant to say is this:

With a 100% Shimano system including the 9 speed cogset/shimano freehub, you only need replace the STI with Ergo levers.

To put it another way: Take a Shimano Dura Ace equipped bike and remove the STI levers. Put Ergo levers on.

Things you need to purchase: 1 set of Campagnolo Ergo levers... and some new cables/housing, of course (that can be Shimano too-save you some bucks).

The only reason I do this is because I want 9 speed on one of my bikes for cross (already have 2 shimano wheelsets-why waste 'em). I use full Campy on my other bikes. I don't want to go back and forth between STI and Ergo. Anyway, I like Ergo much better so I put Campy Ergo levers on my otherwise Shimano bike. I saw another cross guy here in Los Angeles with that setup, which is how I learned about it.
Besides that, I really can't see a reason to mix the two.

yes you are right (as I have posted before) but the cog set spacing is different, which means that shifting is going to be a small bit off (not perfect as it would with campy - campy or shimano - shimano.)

look here for the info http://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#spacing

small difference but it is present.

Originally posted by VegasCyclist
yes you are right (as I have posted before) but the cog set spacing is different, which means that shifting is going to be a small bit off (not perfect as it would with campy - campy or shimano - shimano.)

look here for the info http://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#spacing

small difference but it is present. When I read that chart it is clear that a 9 speed Campy Shifter moves a Campy derailleur 4.55 mm on a single shift and that a 9 speed STI shifter moves a Shimano derailleur 4.34 mm on a single shift. What is not clear is how much a Campy shifter would move a Shimano derailleur on a single shift, or vice versa. The mechanical advantage of the shifters or derailleurs could be a little bit different. If the difference were favorable, then the shifting could be smooth with a mixed drive train.

Campagnolo 10-speed levers + 9 speed shimano rd will index correctly on a shimano 8-speed cassette. This would be the cheapest way to start a conversion.

Originally posted by RacerX
I guess I'm not making myself clear on this since this is about the 4th time I said this- which is my fault. What I meant to say is this:

With a 100% Shimano system including the 9 speed cogset/shimano freehub, you only need replace the STI with Ergo levers.

To put it another way: Take a Shimano Dura Ace equipped bike and remove the STI levers. Put Ergo levers on.

Things you need to purchase: 1 set of Campagnolo Ergo levers... and some new cables/housing, of course (that can be Shimano too-save you some bucks).

The only reason I do this is because I want 9 speed on one of my bikes for cross (already have 2 shimano wheelsets-why waste 'em). I use full Campy on my other bikes. I don't want to go back and forth between STI and Ergo. Anyway, I like Ergo much better so I put Campy Ergo levers on my otherwise Shimano bike. I saw another cross guy here in Los Angeles with that setup, which is how I learned about it.
Besides that, I really can't see a reason to mix the two. Fascinating :) Thanks for the info!

FOG, you have a good point about the (lack of) QR on a Campy caliper + Shimano lever combination. I didn't think about that. With 700 x 23's I doubt it would be much of an issue for changing flats, but a badly out-of-true wheel... well, I suppose I would just release some cable at the clamp in that scenario. Maybe I should just order up the orbital Campy pads & holders or just stick with all-Shimano.

sigh, yes the Ergo works in perfect syc with a full Shimano system. No cog spacers or adapters needed

Originally posted by FOG
When I read that chart it is clear that a 9 speed Campy Shifter moves a Campy derailleur 4.55 mm on a single shift and that a 9 speed STI shifter moves a Shimano derailleur 4.34 mm on a single shift. What is not clear is how much a Campy shifter would move a Shimano derailleur on a single shift, or vice versa. The mechanical advantage of the shifters or derailleurs could be a little bit different. If the difference were favorable, then the shifting could be smooth with a mixed drive train.

Campy 9 ergo levers don't work. You need Ergo 10 levers with a full 9 speed Shimano system. It shifts perfectly through the range.

Originally posted by RacerX
Campy 9 ergo levers don't work. You need Ergo 10 levers with a full 9 speed Shimano system. It shifts perfectly through the range. I was just using an example from the chart- The underlying question is how much an ergo lever of particular design will move a shimano derailleur.